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Old 03-02-2009, 05:14 PM   #1
Aran e-Godhellim
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Pengolodh - is it his name?

Hi, I looked around for a thread on this, but couldn't find one.

My question is, should we actually use the name "Pengolodh" for the last of the Lambengolmar?

The reason I ask is because in one of his later writings, Tolkien wrote that "Pengolodh" was to be replaced by "Thingˇdhel." This change actually makes sense in light of its context in the "Quendi and Eldar" essay.

Etymologically, "Pengolodh" seems to mean (somewhat freely) "one who has wisdom with words," or "the Noldo of words." (As a note, this means it was likely an epesse.) The "golodh" is obviously the same form as the Sindarin word for "Noldo." However, in "Quendi and Eldar" Tolkien states that the form "Golodh" was used almost exclusively in Doriath, and never among Feanor's sons or their allies. This throws its use in Pengolodh's name into question.

Also, in the same essay, Tolkien states unequivocally that the common name for one of the Noldor was "Gˇdhel." Therefore, "Thingˇdhel" would mean "Grey-Noldo," a fitting title. (Though perhaps it should be spelt with the Latin "■," as Professor Tolkien was apt to do.)

Last edited by Aran e-Godhellim; 03-03-2009 at 04:55 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:48 AM   #2
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Greetings, Aran. Thanks for bringing this point up. I don't have HoMe at hand now, so perhaps you can remind us where the proposed name 'Thingodhel' appears? Is it in 'Quendi and Eldar' itself? It's been a little while since I've read that.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:42 PM   #3
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It's mentioned in one of the notes to "Quendi and Eldar." Apparently, Tolkien wrote on the margin of the document that Pengolodh was to be changed to Thingˇdhel.

Thanks for the welcome!
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Old 03-04-2009, 11:46 AM   #4
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Indeed, it seems pretty clear from this note that 'Pengolodh' must be changed to 'Thingˇdhel' unless some later source can be found to contradict this.

A possible contradiction may perhaps be found in 'Danweth Pengolodh'. Now, 'Danweth Pengolodh' itself was written sometime between 1951 and 1959, with CT preferring an earlier date to a later one; 'Quendi and Eldar' on the other hand is from 1959-1960. So the 'Thingodhel' suggestion almost certainly post-dates 'Danweth Pengolodh' itself. However, CT notes that the text was enclosed in a newspaper dated 5 January 1960 on which Tolkien wrote 'Two items from the lore of Pengolo­'. So we do have a use of the name Pengolo­ that could post-date 'Thingodhel'.
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Old 03-04-2009, 12:45 PM   #5
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I just found this in the 'Cirdan' text given in 'Last Writings' in HoMe XII:

Quote:
Pengolo­ alone mentions a tradition among the Sindar of Doriath that it was in archaic form Nōwē, the original meaning of which was uncertain, as was that of OlwŰ.
So we do have an instance of 'Pengolo­' post-dating the 'Thingodhel' note. Probably, at the time he wrote this Tolkien had completely forgotten the change to 'Thingodhel'; nonetheless, I think that in light of this we should retain 'Pengolo­'.
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Old 03-04-2009, 02:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
Indeed, it seems pretty clear from this note that 'Pengolodh' must be changed to 'Thingˇdhel' unless some later source can be found to contradict this.

A possible contradiction may perhaps be found in 'Danweth Pengolodh'. Now, 'Danweth Pengolodh' itself was written sometime between 1951 and 1959, with CT preferring an earlier date to a later one; 'Quendi and Eldar' on the other hand is from 1959-1960. So the 'Thingodhel' suggestion almost certainly post-dates 'Danweth Pengolodh' itself. However, CT notes that the text was enclosed in a newspaper dated 5 January 1960 on which Tolkien wrote 'Two items from the lore of Pengolo­'. So we do have a use of the name Pengolo­ that could post-date 'Thingodhel'.
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Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
I just found this in the 'Cirdan' text given in 'Last Writings' in HoMe XII:

Quote:
Pengolo­ alone mentions a tradition among the Sindar of Doriath that it was in archaic form Nōwē, the original meaning of which was uncertain, as was that of OlwŰ.
So we do have an instance of 'Pengolo­' post-dating the 'Thingodhel' note. Probably, at the time he wrote this Tolkien had completely forgotten the change to 'Thingodhel'; nonetheless, I think that in light of this we should retain 'Pengolo­'.
I tend to disagree. I'd say this most likely means that Tolkien simply forgot the note on 'Thingˇdhel.' Pengolo­ was the form he had used for decades, and he probably wrote it out of habit. I would advocate adopting Thingˇdhel because even if Tolkien hadn't given us a name, his statements in "Quendi and Eldar" throw the element 'golodh' in Pendolodh's name into doubt, as I said earlier. And Thingˇdhel fits perfectly his description as the child of a Noldo and a grey-elf, as the name literally means 'Grey-Noldo.'

To retain the element 'golodh,' we would have to somehow reconcile it to the statements in "Quendi and Eldar." It's much simpler in my opinion to simply accept the new form as correct, and say Tolkien forgot what he had written, which he often did. (Much to our chagrin!)

Still, my argument is far from bullet-proof.

Last edited by Aran e-Godhellim; 03-06-2009 at 11:55 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:56 PM   #7
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This does seem to be a bit of a grey area. There are two related points against accepting the late use of 'Pengolo­' in 'Cirdan':

1. Tolkien's note proposing a change to 'Thingodhel'.
2. The statement in Q&E that 'golodh' was not used among the Noldor or those most friendly to them.

If it were a matter of point 1 alone, I would say that the appearance of 'Pengolo­' in 'Cirdan' pretty clearly takes precedence. But point 2 makes this much more doubtful.

It's perhaps worth noting that in the text of Q&E itself, Tolkien uses 'Pengolodh' several times without appearing to worry about a contradiction with his statement (in the very same text) about the non-use of 'golodh'. On the other hand, in all likelihood the change to 'Thingodhel' arose when he noticed this contradiction.
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:04 PM   #8
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I concur. We really need more people here to discuss this. Is the forum always this quiet?
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:06 AM   #9
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Yes. For the past few years the main contributors have been Findegil, Maedhros, and me, and at times activity dies down altogether. But I hope this doesn't dissuade you from staying active here! We have actually gotten quite a bit accomplished (with at times some very lively debate) with such a small group.
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:04 PM   #10
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Thingodhel or rather Thingo­el in our spelling seems to have the upper hand for me. The continued use of Pengolodh could simply be considered as a some what continued 'slip of the pen'.

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Old 03-06-2009, 04:29 PM   #11
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Thingodhel or rather Thingo­el in our spelling seems to have the upper hand for me. The continued use of Pengolodh could simply be considered as a some what continued 'slip of the pen'.

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From someone who has absolutely no business posting in this forum: Pengolodh is a much more familiar name even though Thingo­el may be more correct. When I read "Pengolodh", I realized "oh, that loremaster from Valinor." When I read "Thingo­el" I think, "whodat??" Maybe when you introduce him you can use both together "Gandalf Mithrandir", so to speak.

Or you could just brand this post "nutcase" and delete it.
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:17 PM   #12
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Nice to see you venturing into this forum, mark12_30!

You raise a point worthy, perhaps, of some note. One somewhat odd consequence of our principles is that a sizeable number of familiar names are in our version replaced by names that appear only once, and often in brief, hasty notes, in Tolkien's writings. 'Avranc' becomes 'Daruin', for example, and even 'Gelion' is in our version 'Duin Daer'.

The fundamental reason for this is that name changes are by their nature easy to implement. Whereas similar late notes that propose plot changes are often 'proposed changes that do not clearly indicate the exact details that must be changed and how they are to be changed' and thus, according to our principles, not taken up, name changes are almost always quite straightforward and therefore almost always allowed.

I'm not suggesting that anything should (or can) be done about this. In theory, we could add to our principles a stipulation that long-standing names are not to be changed on the basis of a single isolated note, but that would be quite arbitrary and would leave a large number of ambiguous cases (not to mention that allowing alterations to the principles would really be opening Pandora's box). Like it or not, I think we must use 'Duin Daer' and 'Thingodhel'. But this is perhaps one unfortunate feature of our version of the Silmarillion.
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Old 03-07-2009, 04:50 PM   #13
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Well, it's not terrible, because a complete set of name-changes means that all the descriptions of Pengolodh will now be descriptions of Thingˇdhel, so people will be able to know who he is anyway.
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran e-Godhellim
(...) Etymologically, "Pengolodh" seems to mean (somewhat freely) "one who has wisdom with words," or "the Noldo of words."
Good work! It appears explained as 'teaching sage' in Tolkien's Words, Phrases, and Passages (at least), and in Sindarin it was said: 'Golo­ was used of any sage or loremaster. A teacher of lore was pengolo­. KWEN- (whence kwenedÚ) 'speak with rational words'

Also the name Pengolo­ (with respect to the Thingˇdhel question) is well attested in late writings 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals and Related Writings' (c. 1968).

And his history is a bit different from that found in the earlier Quendi and Eldar (itself fairly certainly dated around 1959 - 1960) -- he is an Exile rather, according to Author's note 3 to Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi, and as the Vinyar Tengwar editors also note, he would then have no Sindarin blood.
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:58 PM   #15
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Greetings, Galin! Nice to see you here.

I don't have 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers, and Numerals', so I'm grateful for the information. It sounds as if the name 'Pengolodh' is definitely well established post-'Quendi and Eldar', so I think we need to reverse our previous decision and use it rather than 'Thingodhel'.
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Old 06-18-2009, 04:23 AM   #16
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Yes, it seems Pengolo­ is back.
Sorry that I missed that source. I have Vinyar Tengwar but I didn't earch it for Pengolodh when we discussed that name earlier.

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Old 06-18-2009, 07:03 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
Yes, it seems Pengolo­ is back.
Sorry that I missed that source. I have Vinyar Tengwar but I didn't earch it for Pengolodh when we discussed that name earlier.

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Yes, I have seen it too, I prefer Pengolodh as an Exile.

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Old 06-18-2009, 02:26 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Galin View Post
Good work! It appears explained as 'teaching sage' in Tolkien's Words, Phrases, and Passages (at least), and in Sindarin it was said: 'Golo­ was used of any sage or loremaster. A teacher of lore was pengolo­. KWEN- (whence kwenedÚ) 'speak with rational words'

Also the name Pengolo­ (with respect to the Thingˇdhel question) is well attested in late writings 'Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals and Related Writings' (c. 1968).

And his history is a bit different from that found in the earlier Quendi and Eldar (itself fairly certainly dated around 1959 - 1960) -- he is an Exile rather, according to Author's note 3 to Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi, and as the Vinyar Tengwar editors also note, he would then have no Sindarin blood.


Hmm. I don't have access to those manuscripts, so I can't add anything. Thanks for dropping in to tell us!
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Old 02-09-2013, 12:07 PM   #19
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As Aran e-Godhelim might not be the only one who does not have access to the Vinyar Tengwar sources, I will give the Pengolo­ source here discussed. The ž is in VT number 48: Eldarin Hands, Fingers & Numerals and Related Writings - Part Two; Text II: Synopsis of Pengolo­'s Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi. The passage reads:
Quote:
ž4 The following account is an abbrevation of a curious document, preserved in the archives of Gondor by strange chance (or by many such chances) from the Elder Days, but in a copy apparently made in N˙menor not long before its downfall: probably by or at the orders of Elendil himself, when selecting such recordes as he could hope to store for the journey to Middle-earth. This one no doubt owed its selection and its copying, first to Elendil's own love of the Eldarin tongues and of the works of the loremasters who wrote about their history; but also to the unusual contents of this disquisition in Quenya: Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi: The Elvish Fingers and Numerals. It is attributed by the copyist, to Pengolo­ (or Quendingoldo) of Gondolin (Authors Note 3), and he describes the Elvish play-names of the fingers as used by and taught to children. ...

Authors Note 3: Reputed to be the greatest of the Lambe˝golmor (linguistic loremasters) before the end of the Elder Days, both by talent and opportunity, since he himself had known Quenya (Vanyarin and Noldorin) and Telerin and preserved in a memory remarkable even among the Eldar the works (especially on etymology) of the earlier loremasters (including Feanor); but also had as an Exile been able to learn Sindarin in its varieties, and Nandorin, and had some acquaintance with Khuzdűl in its archaic form as used in the habitations of the Dwarves in Ered Lindon (Editors Note 25).

Editors Note 25: An earlier and more detailed biographical sketch of Pengolo­ appears in Quendi and Eldar (XI:396-97), which describes him as "an Elf of mixed Sindarin and Đoldorin ancestry, born in Nevrast who lived in Gondolin from its foundation", and who after the fall of Gondolin "collected much material among the survivors of the wars at Sirion's Mouth concerning languages and gesture-systems with which, owing to the isolation of Gondolin, he had not before had any direct acquaintance". He is said to have remained in Middle-earth well into the Second Age to further his studies, dwelling for a time among the Dwarves of Khazad-dűm, but he sailed to EressŰa "when the shadow of Sauron fell upon Eriador".
The account of Pengolo­ in ELN differs from this in some points. ELN states that Pengolo­ was an Exile, meaning that he was born in Valinor instead of Nevrast and had no Sindarin blood. Also, in ELN Pengolo­ is said to have learned something of Khuzdűl "in its archaic form as used in the habitations of the Dwarves in Ered Lindon" (i.e., in Nogrod and Belegost), whereas Quendi and Eldar states that Pengolo­ gained his knowledge of Khuzdűl from the Dwarves of Khazad-dűm in the Second Age.
Now my question is what do we make of this? Does Pengolo­ the Exile stay in Middle-earth "well into the Second Age"?

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