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Old 03-19-2013, 02:27 PM   #121
Aiwendil
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I guess the first question is whether we consider the agreement by you, me, and Maedhros on the issue of Ulmo's counsel to have been a vote or a unanimous consensus. No official vote was taken, and we all found the solution adopted to be acceptable, but it was fairly clear that you preferred to include the counsel of war while Maedhros and I preferred not to.

But that might not actually matter. If we consider it a unanimous agreement, then according to the new principle, that can only be changed by a new unanimous agreement (and only if new arguments have been brought forward). If we consider it a vote, then it can be changed if a count of old and new votes would produce a different result, but unless I'm mistaken a count of old and new votes would actually result in a tie: switch me from the 'exclude' to the 'include' column, but add Gondowe to the 'exclude' column, making it 2-2. (Incidentally, I just realized that we didn't make it clear whether the old votes of members who are voting again still count in this case, but I assumed they would not). It seems to me that in the case of such a tie, the old decision would stand.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:21 AM   #122
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Hello again both fellows, I've been very busy. I agree with what you decided about the votes.

One thing apart from the matter we were discussing. Now, I don't know if you already received the last Vinyar Tengwar. Its about a Sindarin text "The Turin Wrapper". There is one sentence we could introduce at the beginning; is related to Rían telling Tuor her fears (like a thought, not as dialogue, rhetorical) after the Nirnaeth (the treason of the Easterlings) and before giving him to the Grey Elves:
"And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all [?the earth/hands/hearts] of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be [?opposed/?silent] to us.
The words in brackets are those with a hard lecture/transcription, but I think is very plausible like this:
"And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us." or
"And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all the hearts of the dwarves and of the Elves will be silent to us."

Could we consider the sentence to introduce in the text in some way in the second paragraph?

What do you think?

Greetings

Last edited by gondowe; 03-27-2013 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 03-28-2013, 05:59 AM   #123
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Okay first the easy matter: As we have made up our rules the decission about Ulmo asking Turgon to go to war is done. Since we already observed in the first discussion that it might be the saver way to let this element out, we are at least on the save side.

For me it seems that we have with this setteled down all points brought up by Aiwendil.

Now to the more arcane matter of the nice Vinyar Tengwar sentence: As much as I agree with Gondowe that it would be nice to include that reflection on the treason of the Easterlings, I think that the actual act of introduction might be impossibly difficult under our rules. I have VT 50 at home but not at hand in the moment. I did not yet read it, but will do (at least in part) this evening. I hope that I find some more material to work with, but if it is only that blanc sentence we have, then our editing would have to be very free, like this:
Quote:
... There she would have perished, but the Grey-elves came to her aid. For there was a dwelling of this people in the mountains westward of Lake Mithrim; and thither they led her, and she was there delivered of a son before the end of the Year of Lamentation.
And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth,FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 /told her what he did know about that battle. So he revaled the treason of the Easterlings./ And said Rían to Tuor: 'What{what} have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.'/
And at the end Annael/ said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
Therefore Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ...
I suppose the sentence is realy in some mode of elvish script and probably in one of the earlier elvish lenguages as well. So we might consider to enter it in this form and provide a translation.
I will come back on this matter as soon as I have VT 50 in hand.

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Old 04-01-2013, 02:42 PM   #124
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I also have VT50 but haven't read it yet. I agree with Findegil that it may be impossible to incorporate it, since there is no very natural place to insert it into the text. The suggestion of putting it in the second paragraph is probably the best we could do, but we still have to invent a sentence about the news of the treachery of the Easterlings, as in Findegil's attempt.
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Old 04-02-2013, 05:57 AM   #125
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Reading VT 50 I found that the matter is more complex then expected. The sentence is in Latin script but in an early form of Sindarin language. It reads in the final form (reach by Tolkien with some emendations while writing):
Quote:
Arphent Rían
Tuorna: man agorech?

il chem en i naugrim
en ir Ellath thor
den amen
Tolkien provides neither translation nor context. Which makes the attempts of the editors of VT to translate the sentence more difficult. The full analysis is very interesting but would lead to fare here (in addition to breaking there copy right). They arrive finally at the following possible meanings:
Quote:
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all the earth of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be opposed to us.
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all hands of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be opposed to us.
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all hearts of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be opposed to us.
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all the earth of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be silent to us.
And said Rían to Tuor: what have we done? Now all hearts of the dwarves [and] of the Elves will be silent to us.
The metaphorical meant is quite clear: Rian is expressing to her infant boy here fear that due to the betrayal men have done during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the dwarves and Elves will in future be opposed to men. Nonetheless the exact translation is very much uncertain as shown above.
In such a case we must step back and look at our rules:
Quote:
4. No new names and no new expressions in Elvish or in any of J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages may be introduced; all names or expressions in J.R.R. Tolkien's special languages that are updated must be changed either in accordance with a universal change by Tolkien or with a logical reason and a sound etymology.
Wouldn't it be violating this rule (at least in spirit) to give a definite translation to a phrase like that discussed here, were the guru's of ELF do not provide such a definite meaning?

The way around this would be giving the phrase in Sindarin and providing a translation in a footnote with some colloquial remark about its uncertainty. But then we have to be sure if this phrase is still valid Sindarin or if it is out dated? I am much to less an expert in Tolkien’s languages to answer that question.
If it is outdated: are we trusting our self to make an appropriate updating with the uncertainty in meaning we have? I don't believe so.

Anyway I am still very much interested to include the sentence if possible. It does transport some very interesting information about men before the Nirnaeth. As much as we are told that the Edain shunned the newly come Easterlings, I for my part believed the Edain thought of the newcomers as part of the hunting parties that had followed them out of the east to drag as many as possible to the scarifies at the temple of Morogth. But if Rian has such feeling of togetherness as to take upon herself and her kind a common blame for the deeds of a part of the Easterlings this does no longer feel true to me.
So if the Sindarin is okay I would propose the following:
Quote:
... There she would have perished, but the Grey-elves came to her aid. For there was a dwelling of this people in the mountains westward of Lake Mithrim; and thither they led her, and she was there delivered of a son before the end of the Year of Lamentation.
And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth,FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 /told her what he did know about that battle. So he revealed the treason of the Easterlings. And said Rían to Tuor:/ {Arphent Rían Tuorna: man} ’Man agorech? Sí il chem en i naugrim en ir Ellath thor den amen.’ [Footnote: 'What have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.' (Translation is not absolutely certain)]/
And at the end Annael/ said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
Therefore Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ...
Respectfuly
Findegil

P.S.: Members who don't have VT 50 should visit the privat forum.

Last edited by Findegil; 04-02-2013 at 06:04 AM.
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:50 AM   #126
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Coming back to FG-T-24 which I think is the last more or less open question of Aiwendil. After we set our rules in a way that does fix the old vote (at least for the moment) may be we should think harder on Aiwendil's question c):
Quote:
Is it possible to make our text ambiguous, so that it neither includes the counsel of war nor contradicts it?
If we could that would agree to the spirit of the old discussion and cover the new position of Aiwendil and my own as good as possible. So I will try it out:
Quote:
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your{ dwelling and your hill of} vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin].{ Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.}’ <Q30 {and}And he bade Turgon to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs{, nor emperil my city against the fire of Melko}.’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare{ greatly} then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, {though terrible the encounter, }then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel{ to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone}; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’ <QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; ...
Thus Ulmo would beg Turgon to prepare for war but not to wage it on his own. It could either be interpreted as meaning that Ulmo is urging Turgon to wage that war now, or that he should prepare for the War of Wrath foressen by Ulmo.

Respectfuly
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:26 PM   #127
Aiwendil
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Sorry for my absence the last few weeks.

FG-T-24: Findegil's last suggestion looks viable to me. Gondowe, you have been the most reluctant of us three to include Ulmo's counsel of war; does Findegil's proposal look acceptable to you, or would you rather avoid the suggestion of arming for war altogether?

FG-TCG-00.2: I still think that including this sentence requires too much textual meddling. I appreciate that it would be nice to use it, but the necessary addition required to set it up - i.e., mentioning specifically that Annael told her about the treachery of the Easterlings - looks like too great an intrusion to me.
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Old 04-25-2013, 10:38 AM   #128
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Hello, sorry for the long delay in answering.
I would like very much in introducing as much as text as I could do it. I think that the message Tuor speaks to Turgon (in my version) is very short and is not good from the point of view of literature.
But I really think (and always thougth) deep in my mind, considering all that was said in previous posts, that the only will of Ulmo at last (in the last concept of Tolkien), is to bring Tour to Gondolin to born Eärendil, destinated with the help of the Silmaril to reach Aman. I think Ulmo always knew by the Doom of Mandos or whatever be, that there were any hope to defeat Morgoth.
So in my humble opinion, much of the text in FG-T-24 and FG-T-25 is out of place.

Alas! How wish many minds opining here.

FG-TCG-00.2 I agree in everything.

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Old 04-25-2013, 11:45 AM   #129
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Okay, I will give it a second go:
Quote:
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your{ dwelling and your hill of} vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and {prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.}’ <Q30 abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people down Sirion>.' <Q30 Summons too should {he}Turgon send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against {the fire of Melko}<editorial addition decline>.’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ <Q30 {and}And he foretold the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’ <QS77 And he gave warning to Turgon that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish;> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; ...
In this version Ulmo would beg Turgon to retreat to the mouth of Sirion and there gahter all strength for the war to come. Now Ulmo fortells that with the gathered sterngth of Turgon the war to come from the West would be much more then the actual War of Wrath in which the forces of Middle-Earth were very much reduced. This counsel would allow Eärendil to be real cause form Ulmos action, even so if Turgon would have followed at least one of Ulmos bidding his early viëta and later role might have been diffrent.

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Old 04-27-2013, 09:07 AM   #130
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I don't have very much time, so I beg for pardon if the text is not in the rules of editing.
But I tried to compound my version of the text, having in mind your last post that is finer than others before (for me of course).
Quote:
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. {There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his} His heart is wroth and {the hearts of the Valar are} he is angered {who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil,} seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. {Therefore have} Have I been brought by a secret way to <QS77 {And he} gave warning to {Turgon} you that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish>; bid you number your hosts and {prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.’} <Q30 abandon Gondolin and lead {his} your people down Sirion>.' <Q30 Summons too should {he}Turgon send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.> <Q30 A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, {but victory if Turgon would dare it}, the breaking of Morgoth’s power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world,{ and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more}.>
Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.> <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
Then said Turgon: {‘Every year at the lifting of winter}Yet after Bragollach and past the Nirnaeth Arnoediad have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats {whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind}, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; {and at the coming of next year} no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’
<Q30 Maeglin spoke ever against Tuor {in the councils of the King}, and his words seemed the more weighty in that they went with Turgon's heart. Wise-hearted even beyond the measure of the daughters of Elfinesse was the daughter of the King, and she spoke even for Tuor; {and} but at the last {he} Turgon rejected the bidding of Ulmo and refused his counsel.
Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea.
Q30< {thougt} However some there were of his wisest counselors who were filled with disquiet>, <Q77{but} and in the warning of the Vala Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore[later] in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood.
But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01 <GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>. Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin.
Greetings

Last edited by gondowe; 04-29-2013 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 07-15-2014, 10:23 AM   #131
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Can it be that this was the last post before the long silence?

Howsoever it should not be the last post in this thread. I will try to help out were Gondowe had a problem of laking time. Here you find his proposal as goog edited according to our rules as I could do it:
Quote:
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. FG-T-24.1{There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his}His heart is wroth FG-T-24.2{and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, }seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. FG-T-24.3{Therefore have}Have I been brought by a secret way to FG-T-24.4<QS77 {And he gave}give warning to {Turgon}you that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish> and bid you number your hosts and FG-T-24.5{prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.}’ FG-T-24.6<Q30 abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people down Sirion>.' FG-T-24.7<Q30 Summons too should {he}Turgon send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.>FG-T-24.8<Q30 A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, FG-T-24.9{but victory if Turgon would dare it,} the breaking of Morgoth’s power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world{, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more}.>FG-T-24.91Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo FG-T-24.92<TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>FG-T-24.93<TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[And when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
FG-T-25.3<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
FG-T-25.7 Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26{that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea.
FG-T-26.3<Q30 {thougt}However some there were of his wisest counselors who were filled with disquiet>, FG-T-26.5<Q77{but} and in the warning of the Vala Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore FG-T-26.7[ later] in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood.
But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01<GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>. Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin.
I did only correct garmatical issues were I was sure that they had no meaning. In addition I added some Editing markers to make the discussion easier. Which I like to start right now:

FG-T-24.1, FG-T-24.2: I understand this changes to mean that Ulmo is only speaking for himself and not making any statemants about the other Valar. That is okay for me as it can be read out of Ulmos words an Vinyamar that he does work on his own an against their counsel.

FG-T-24.3: I don't understand this change, and it leaves the sentence very ungramatical. I suppose to leave the start of this sentence as it is, since it does still fit the rest of our edited text nicely.

FG-T-24.4: I can see why this is wished for and since we have no better source Sil77 is okay here.

FG-T-24.5: I see no reason to eliminate this, especially when FG-T-24.7 is kept.

FG-T-24.9: Okay, this must go if Turgon is not bidden to wage war immedatley.

FG-T-24.93: That is a smart placement, as it would allow us to say all the rest of the conversation is not Ulmo speaking through Tour to Turgon, but Tuor himself trying to persue Turgon at least to do part of Ulmos biding as he understood it.

FG-T-25 This was the passage of direct speech taken from LT, which must be skipt because it speaks of a war at hand not in the far future.

FG-T-25.3: This is a long passage from Sil77. For some parts of it we have the source information and should use these sources instaed and only add what is found exclusivly in Sil77 under that label. I will prepare that for my next draft.

FG-T-25.7: I find here is somthing missing. Why should Turgon speak about his messagers, if he was not bidden to send new once? Either we have to skip more of his answer or we have to introduce Tuor's biding to send new messengers.

FG-T-26.3 to FG-T-26.7: This is put together nicely, but it is picking up phrases here and there yust to get a text done. I think if we have to make it more simple. Even so I understand that it is better to take it up earlier then we did before in FG-TG-01.5. Especially FG-T-26.2 is not necessary at all. The phrase 'in that time' is vague enough to allow us to use the sentence at any place in the discussion between Tuor and Turgon.

That would bring the section to tjis form:
Quote:
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. FG-T-24.1{There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of {Melko}[Melkor], and he is glad: but his}His heart is wroth FG-T-24.2{and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, }seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. FG-T-24.3 Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to FG-T-24.4<QS77 {And he gave}give warning to {Turgon}you that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish> and bid you number your hosts and FG-T-24.5 prepare for battle, {for the time is ripe.'} FG-T-24.6<Q30 abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people down Sirion>.' FG-T-24.7<QS30 Summons too should {he}Turgon send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count.>FG-T-24.8<QS30 A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, FG-T-24.9{but victory if Turgon would dare it,} the breaking of Morgoth’s power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world{, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more}.>FG-T-24.91Thus <QS30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo FG-T-24.92<TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared.>FG-T-24.93<TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[And when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished.]>
FG-T-25.3<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.'> FG-T-25.31<QS30 But proud was Turgon become, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory {Tun}[Tirion], and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength FG-T-25.32<QS77 , though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad>{so that} heand the most part of his folk wished not to imperil it nor leave it, and they desired not to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without; nor did they any longer desire to return through dread and danger to the West.>FG-T-26.5<QS77{but}But in the warning of the Vala Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore FG-T-26.7 in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood. FG-T-25.33<QS77 Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>
FG-T-25.34<QS30 Meglin spoke ever against Tuor in the councils of the king, and his words seemed the more weighty in that they went with Turgon's heart. Wherefore Turgon rejected the bidding of Ulmo; though some there were of his wisest counsellors who were filled with disquiet. Wise-hearted even beyond the measure of the daughters of Elfinesse was the daughter of the king, and she spoke ever for Tuor, though it did not avail, and her heart was heavy. Very fair and tall was she, well nigh of warrior's stature, and her hair was a fountain of gold. Idril was she named, and called Celebrindal, Silver-foot, for the whiteness of her foot; and she walked and danced ever unshod in the white ways and green lawns of Gondolin.>
FG-T-25.5 But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long FG-T-25.53{ages}[years] gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that men of the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of {Kôr}[Tuna] and the {Gods}[Valar] sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow{ and fear of Melko}, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite {Melko}[Melkor], and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’
FG-T-25.7Then said Turgon: ‘Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26{that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’

Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea. But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01<GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>.
Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin.
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Old 07-28-2014, 02:55 PM   #132
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I have agian thought about the Rían sentence FG-TCG-00.2. Would it be okay to add it in this way:
Quote:
... There she would have perished, but the Grey-elves came to her aid. For there was a dwelling of this people in the mountains westward of Lake Mithrim; and thither they led her, and she was there delivered of a son before the end of the Year of Lamentation.
And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’ FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 {Arphent Rían Tuorna: man}/And said Rían to Tuor:/ ’Man agorech? Sí il chem en i naugrim en ir Ellath thor den amen. [Footnote: 'What have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.' (Translation is not absolutely certain)]
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth, said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
Therefore Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ...
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Old 08-13-2014, 04:37 PM   #133
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So unless I'm mistaken, there are two unresolved issues here. First, the question of whether to include Ulmo's counsel that Turgon prepare for war in any way, and second whether to include the Rian sentence from VT50.

On the first question, it seems that long ago Findegil, Maedhros, and I had decided not to include Ulmo's counsel that Turgon rally all the Elves and Men he could and go to war against Morgoth. However, in looking at the chapter again, it seemed to me and Findegil that we been too hasty in rejecting it, and that support for keeping it can be found in the Tale of Years. However, Gondowe opposed its inclusion, on the basis that he was convinced that in the later story, the only hope that Ulmo saw was in the eventual birth of Earendil.

The last proposal from Gondowe keeps much of Ulmo's counsel but changes its import: Turgon is urged to make an alliance with all the Elves and Men he can, and gather his strength, but he is not told to go to war. I suppose the idea is that Ulmo wants him to be prepared for the Great Battle, but I have to say that I am skeptical of changing the text in this way - keeping the words but changing their meaning. Ultimately, I think I still lean toward including the whole of Ulmo's counsel.

What do Lindil and Eruhen think?

The Rian sentence is an easier matter, and actually I think that Findegil's latest proposal manages to introduce it without any problematic changes to the text.
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Old 10-04-2014, 02:28 AM   #134
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Hello fellows, how are you. Always nice to see the project goin' on.
I had to re elaborate my mind to remember old decisions, and I continue with very little time.
So:

FG-T-24.5: I see no reason to eliminate this, especially when FG-T-24.7 is kept.

In this context I think that the urgency is not to prepare for war, but to escape from Gondolin.

FG-T-25.7: I find here is somthing missing. Why should Turgon speak about his messagers, if he was not bidden to send new once? Either we have to skip more of his answer or we have to introduce Tuor's biding to send new messengers.

Dramatically I think is necessary that after the message from Tuor/Ulmo, Turgon explains as a kind of complaint that the Valar don't want to hear their asking from help (from the messengers). And proudly they stay in Gondolin.

The rest is OK for me.


As for the Rían sentence: Is good but I'm goin to propose other place:


And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth, said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 {Arphent Rían Tuorna: man}/Then said Rían to Tuor:/ ’Man agorech? Sí il chem en i naugrim en ir Ellath thor den amen.’ [Footnote: 'What have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.' (Translation is not absolutely certain)] {Therefore} /After/ Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ...

What do you think?

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Old 10-06-2014, 07:03 AM   #135
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Nice to read your oppinion here again gondowe!

Starting with the easier matter: FG-TCG-00.2 the Rían sentence: I find your placement even beter then my own. It makes implicit what my first trial made explicit, that Annael told more about the battle then just the place of Hours death. Just for stylistical reasons I would prefer to change the 'Therefore' that gondowe changed to 'After' into a 'Thereafter'. Laading to
Quote:
... There she would have perished, but the Grey-elves came to her aid. For there was a dwelling of this people in the mountains westward of Lake Mithrim; and thither they led her, and she was there delivered of a son before the end of the Year of Lamentation.
And Rían said to the Elves: ‘Let him be called Tuor, for that name his father chose, ere war came between us. And I beg of you to foster him, and to keep him hidden in your care; for I forebode that great good, for Elves and Men, shall come from him. But I must go in search of Huor, my lord.’
Then the Elves pitied her; but one Annael, who alone of all that went to war from that people had returned from the Nirnaeth, said to her: ‘Alas, lady, it is known now that Huor fell at the side of Húrin his brother; and he lies, I deem, in the great hill of slain that the Orcs have raised upon the field of battle.’
FG-TCG-00.2 <VT 50 {Arphent Rían Tuorna: man}/And said Rían to Tuor:/ ’Man agorech? Sí il chem en i naugrim en ir Ellath thor den amen. [Footnote: 'What have we done? Now all the hands of the dwarves and of the Elves will be opposed to us.' (Translation is not absolutely certain)] {Therefore}Thereafter Rían arose and left the dwelling of the Elves, ...
Now to the more difficult part: About Ulmos counsel to prepare for the war to come. Even so I tried to prepair and even better gondowe's idea of Ulmo urging Turgon only to prepair for the great-battle (later know as the War of Wrath), I agree in part to Aiwendil that we should keep more of Ulmo's bidding. Anyhow I do not understand Aiwendil's argument that we change the meaning: What else than the War of Wrath could have been the outcome of Ulmo's counsel of war if Turgon would have agreed? Especially if we look for the promissed outcome of the battle ('whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more')? This outcome is (if at all) in any version of the legendarium as far as I can see only archivable with the help of the Valar (or probably Eru himself). As I read the text Ulmo does urge Turgon organise an 'all in' move from the free people of Middle-Earth. In such a case both Eru and the Valar would have probaly felt the necessity to grant some help.
Quote:
In this context I think that the urgency is not to prepare for war, but to escape from Gondolin.
Still Gondolin stood long years before its fall. Why would be the urgency on the flight from the city? And what would have been the positive effect of such an early flight? For the preparation of a war as Ulmo aksed for that would have probaly taken the years that still were left.
Quote:
Dramatically I think is necessary that after the message from Tuor/Ulmo, Turgon explains as a kind of complaint that the Valar don't want to hear their asking from help (from the messengers). And proudly they stay in Gondolin.
Agreed, but then it seems necessary to have Tuor asking him to send messengers first.


Anyhow I feel the discussion going in a wrong direction: Were is the textual suport for our arguments? The stronges moments in the history of this project have ever been when we were able to discover 'the truth' about a fact in Middle-Earth by adding some information / support from other texts. And the most terible once when we only exchanged our oppinions and when we found them incompatible came to a text by counting votes.

Aiwendil and I have given the support we see from the Grey Annals and the Tale of the Years. gondowe can you from your point of view answer Aiwendils question b):
Quote:
Can ToY be interpreted in any way other than as a confirmation that Ulmo's counsel of war was still present?
The text in questions reads:
Quote:
The Second Kinslaying. The Sons of Feanor assail[ed] Dior, and he was slain; slain also were Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir. Eldun and Elrun sons of Dior were left in the woods to starve. Elwing escaped and came with the Silmaril to the Mouths of Sirion. Ulmo sends a last warning to Gondolin, which now alone is left; but Turgon will have no alliance with any after the kinslaying of Doriath. Maeglin Eol's son, sister-son of Turgon, was taken in the hills, and betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth.
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Old 10-06-2014, 10:50 AM   #136
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Mistaken text

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Old 10-06-2014, 10:52 AM   #137
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Yes Findegil, is a very, very difficult matter, we have not enough material, but for that reason our opinions about 'the truth' are important. Many times the professor didn't explain his reasons for the development of the history in finished texts. Perhaps I'm influenced by the published Sill77 but in this case we have one important vote for the text, that of C.Tolkien in Sil77,... I don't know.

The ToY matter. Someone think yes, someone no. I still think is ambiguous but I can't think in other way, for me is not an evidence, sorry. I would like to vote, but If my opinion is only considered to contrast, I'll be grateful.

In this way and knowing in your opinion of the wrong direction of the discussion, I wanted to made clear my line of thinking.
First, the time passed till the Fall of Gondolin came due to the reaction of Turgon, negative to abandon and have relation with the others (Men, sons of Fëanor or whoever). So with a positive and on time answer, theoretically, much of what happened after could not have happen (Third kinslaying, etc).
As for the messengers is not necessary that Tour ask for send another one, the speech of Turgon doesn't implies such thing (for me).

Evidently I'm trying to 'think' like Ulmo, ha, ha. Ulmo knows that 1 Messenger will go, but perhaps all is in vain because Ulmo knows that Turgon will not obey.
Speculation I know, sorry, but we have no later material.

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Old 10-09-2014, 11:13 AM   #138
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gondowe, if I understood you correctly, you see Ulmos message only as a kind of trigger for Tuor to reach Gondolin. The real reason behind it is only to allow Tuor to father Earendil.

Thinking in that way, meaning considering the reasoning of divine beings, is not easy. Ulmo is not Eru. He, as all the Valar has a different reception of time and history in comparison to us but he is not omniscient. We know that the Valar could in their mind move backward and forward in time. So it seems obvious that being inside the history of Arda the reception of the Valar of events laying in the future seen from the moment of reception, was restricted to their knowledge of the Music of the Ainur and the vision of Arda shown to them by Eru. Eru in contrast is omniscient, he would be able to know all the events even to the most minute point at any given time of history for any given time of history (the same is true for the Ainur that stayed with Eru, since their existence always was outside time, while the Valar by entering Arda at the beginning of time ‘bound’ themselves to history and with that to time). Thus Ulmo could say ‘the days of Release draw nigh’ but I doubt that he could pinpoint it to a definite date.
In the same way I would doubt that he could presage the exact outcome of the War of Wrath before it happened. I think that he did know that the might of Melkor or better the influence of the Melkor ingredient in the History of Arda would be diminished greatly. But I also do not doubt that he did know that this was not a war to end war and that there would be two further ages of Arda ending in a war against an agent dealing with the Melkor ingredient. But it seems clear that none did know that this would be Sauron (otherwise why should Eonwe allow Sauron stay in Middle-Earth?) or by which means (in part with Orks and other minions of Melkor left behind) Sauron could work.

So what does it all mean for the special case at hand?
I agree that Ulmo did probably know that the most important part of Tuors journey was the fathering of Earendil (Ulmo at Vinyamar: ’… even from Nivrost one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men.’). But still Ulmo says to Turgon in Vinyamar ‘But love it[Gondolin] not too well, and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.’ If only bringing forth Earendil was the sole propose, why then warn Turgon in that way? For me it seems clear that had Turgon followed Ulmos biding brought to him by Tuor the (end-)result most have been better then it turned out to be.
Now we could speculate a lot what that bidding could have been, and how that might have changed the history, but why? We have the old versions and nothing newer. In the old versions Trugon is bidden to gather all the free people of Middle-Earth to his banner and start the War. Ulmo does not promise him that he would outlive that War; he does only promise that the victory in that War would be more effective then the result of the War of Wrath in the event was.

May be the best way to bring the project forward in this arcane situation is start from scrap: What sources do we have? And what do they say? Let’s go through:

Lost Tales: There is first a passage describing Ulmos speech to Tuor, then a long passage of active speech of both Tuor and Turgon:
Quote:
… Then Ulmo arose and spake to him and for dread he came near to death, for the depth of the voice of Ulmo is of the uttermost depth: even as deep as his eyes which are the deepest of all things. And Ulmo said: "O Tuor of the lonely heart, I will not that thou dwell for ever in fair places of birds and flowers; nor would I lead thee through this pleasant land, o but that so it must be. But fare now on thy destined journey and tarry not, for far from hence is thy weird set. Now must thou seek through the lands for the city of the folk called Gondothlim or the dwellers in stone, and the Noldoli shall escort thee thither in secret for fear of the spies of Melko. Words I will set to your mouth there, and there you shall abide awhile. Yet maybe thy life shall turn again to the mighty waters; and of a surety a child shall come of thee than whom no man shall know more of the uttermost deeps, be it of the sea or of the firmament of heaven." Then spake Ulmo also to Tuor some of his design and desire, but thereof Tuor understood little at that time and feared greatly.

Then Turgon king of Gondolin robed in white with a belt of gold, and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. "Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! Thy coming was set in our books of wisdom, and it has been writtenthat there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim whenso thou faredst hither." Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. "Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his heart is wroth and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil, seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the Noldoli and the wanderings of Men; for Melko ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron. Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to bid you number your hosts and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe."
Then spake Turgon: "That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of Melko."
Then spake Tuor: "Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the Noldoli; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and Melko's power be minished to a little thing."
But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long ages gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: "Then am I bidden to say that men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of Kor and the Gods sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of Melko, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite Melko, and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness."
Then said Turgon: "Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river that is called Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of Melko or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and at the coming of next year no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of Melko; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime."
Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwe wept; ...
In this account we do have the presaged of Tuor coming ‘in the books of wisdom’, but we are not told by whom nor when. What is also missing is any hint of the second kin-slaying and Turgons reaction thereto.

In a prose fragment of the Tale of Tuor written after LT [HoME IV; chapter 1;i] it does not tell of the message but of Ulmos motives:
Quote:
'Then' said Ilfiniol son of Bronweg 'know that Ulmo Lord of Waters forgot never the sorrows of the Elfin kindreds beneath the power of Melko, but he might do little because of the anger of the other Gods who shut their hearts against the race of the Gnomes, and dwelt behind the veiled hills of Valinor heedless of the Outer World, so deep was their ruth and regret for the death of the Two Trees. Nor did any save Ulmo only dread the power of Melko that wrought ruin and sorrow over all the Earth; but Ulmo desired that Valinor should gather all its might to quench his evil ere it be too late, and him seemed that both purposes might perchance be achieved if messengers from the Gnomes should win to Valinor and plead for pardon and for pity upon the Earth; for the love of Palurien and Orome her son for those wide realms did but slumber still. Yet hard and evil was the road from the Outer Earth to Valinor, and the Gods themselves had meshed the ways with magic and veiled the encircling hills. Thus did Ulmo seek unceasingly to stir the Gnomes to send messengers unto Valinor, but Melko was cunning and very deep in wisdom, and unsleeping was his wariness in all things that touched the Elfin kindreds, and their messengers overcame not the perils and temptations of that longest and most evil of all roads, and many that dared to set forth were lost for ever.
Now tells the tale how Ulmo despaired that any of the Elfin race should surpass the dangers of the way, and of the deepest and the latest design that he then fashioned, and of those things which came of it.
In the Sketch of the mythology we have both Ulmos presaging and Ulmos message in full and Turgons refusal and so the second kin-slaying is told we have no reaction of Tugon to it.
Quote:
The people of Turgon escaping aided by the prowess of Hurin were lost from the knowledge of Morgoth, and indeed of all in the world save Ylmir. In a secret place in the hills their scouts climbing to the tops discovered a broad valley entirely encircled by the hills in rings ever lower as they came towards the centre. Amid this ring was a wide land without hills, except for one rocky hill that stuck up from the plain, not right at the centre, but nearest to that part of the outer wall which marched close to the edge of Sirion.'
Ylmir's messages come up Sirion bidding them take refuge in this valley, and teaching them spells of enchantment to place upon all the hills about, to keep off foes and spies. He foretells that their fortress shall stand longest of all the refuges of the Elves against Morgoth, and like Doriath never be overthrown - save by treachery from within. …
...
... He [Tuor] is to bid Turgon prepare for battle against Morgoth; for Ylmir will turn the hearts of the Valar to forgive the Gnomes and send them succour. If Turgon will do this, the battle will be terrible, but the race of Orcs will perish and will not in after ages trouble Elves and Men. If not, the people of Gondolin are to prepare for flight to Sirion's mouth, where Ylmir will aid them to build a fleet and guide them back to Valinor. If Turgon does Ylmir's will Tuor is to abide a while in Gondolin and then go back to Hithlum with a force of Gnomes and draw Men once more into alliance with the Elves, for 'without Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Orcs and Balrogs'. This Ylmir does because he knows that ere seven full years are passed the doom of Gondolin will come through Meglin.
...
… Turgon is grown old and very mighty and proud, and Gondolin so fair and beautiful, and its people so proud of it and confident in its secret and impregnable strength, that the king and most of the people do not wish to trouble about the Gnomes and Elves without, or care for Men, nor do they long any more for Valinor. Meglin approving, the king rejects Tuor's message in spite of the words of Idril the far-sighted (also called Idril Silverfoot, because she loved to walk barefoot) his daughter, and the wiser of his counsellors. …
Q30 does repeat the same in nearly the same words. But here for the first time is given a reaction of Turgon to the second kin-slaying. I give first the earlier version QI:
Quote:
… In this [the building of Gondolin] Turgon had the aid of the messages of Ulmo, that came now up the river Sirion; for his voice is to be heard in many waters, and some of the Gnomes had yet the lore to harken. In those days Ulmo was filled with pity for the exiled Elves in their need, and in the ruin that had now almost overwhelmed them. He foretold that the fortress of Gondolin should stand, longest of all the refuges of the Elves against the might of Morgoth,' and like Doriath never be overthrown save by treachery from within. …

… But now Ulmo bade him [Tuor] make all speed to Gondolin, and gave him guidance for the finding of the hidden door; and words were set in his mouth to bear to Turgon, bidding him prepare for battle with Morgoth ere all was lost, and promising that Ulmo would win the hearts of the Valar to send him succour. That would be a mortal and a terrible strife, yet if Turgon would dare it, Morgoth's power should be broken and his servants perish and never after trouble the world. But if Turgon would not go forth to this war, then he must abandon Gondolin and lead his people down Sirion, ere Morgoth could oppose him, and at Sirion's mouth Ulmo would befriend him, and lend his aid to the building of a mighty fleet wherein the Gnomes should sail back at last to Valinor, but then grievous would be the fate of the Outer Lands. Tuor's part if Turgon should accept the counsels of Ulmo, would be to go forth when Turgon marched to war and lead a force into Hithlum and draw its Men once more, into alliance with the Elves, for 'without Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Orcs and Balrogs'.
This errand did Ulmo himself perform out of his love of Elves and of the Gnomes, and because he knew that ere twelve years were passed the doom of Gondolin would come, strong though it seemed, if its people sat still behind their walls.

Tuor spoke his embassy to Turgon in the great square of Gondolin before the steps of his palace; but the king was grown proud and Gondolin so fair and beautiful and he was so trustful of its secret and impregnable strength, that he and the most of his folk wished no longer to trouble with the Gnomes and Men without, nor did they long more to return to the lands of the Gods. Meglin spake against Tuor in the councils of the king, and Turgon rejected the bidding of Ulmo, and neither did he go forth to war nor seek to fly to the mouths of Sirion; but there were some of his wiser counsellors who were filled with disquiet, and the king's daughter spake ever for Tuor. She was named Idril, one of the fairest of the maidens of the Elves of old, and folk called her Celebrindal, Silverfoot, for the whiteness of her slender feet, and she walked and danced ever unshod.

… They succoured not Nargothrond or Doriath, and the wandering Elves knew not how to find them; and when Turgon learned of the slaying of Dior, he vowed never to march with any son of Feanor, and closed his realm, forbidding any of his folk to go ever forth.
In the second Version the first part about Ulmos help in building the city is the same. The rest reads as follow in QII:
Quote:
But now Ulmo bade him [Tuor] make all speed to Gondolin, and gave him guidance for the finding of the hidden door; and a message he gave him to bear from Ulmo, friend of Elves, unto Turgon, bidding him to prepare for war, and battle with Morgoth ere all was lost; and to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; far without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the Gnomes, when every sword should count. A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoth's power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more. But if Turgon would not go forth to this war, then he should abandon Gondolin and lead his people down Sirion, and build thee his fleets and seek back to Valinor and the mercy of the Gods. But in this counsel there was danger more dire than in the other, though so it might not seem; and grievous thereafter would be the fate of the Outer Lands.
This errand Ulmo performed out of his love of the Elves, and because he knew that ere many years were passed the doom of Gondolin would come, if its people sat still behind its walls; not thus should anything of joy or beauty in the world be preserved from Morgoth's malice.
… There Tuor spake the embassy of Ulmo, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared. But proud was Turgon become, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Tun, and he trusted in its secret and impregnable strength; so that he and the most part of his folk wished not to imperil it nor leave it, and they desired not to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without; nor did they any longer desire to return through dread and danger to the West. Meglin spoke ever against Tuor in the councils of the king, and his words seemed the more weighty in that they went with Turgon's heart. Wherefore Turgon rejected the bidding of Ulmo; though some there were of his wisest counsellors who were filled with disquiet. Wise-hearted even beyond the measure of the daughters of Elfinesse was the daughter of the king, and she spoke ever for Tuor, though it did not avail, and her heart was heavy. Very fair and tall was she, well nigh of warrior's stature, and her hair was a fountain of gold. Idril was she named, and called Celebrindal, Silver-foot, for the whiteness of her foot; and she walked and danced ever unshod in the white ways and green lawns of Gondolin.

… Tidings Turgon heard of Thorndor concerning the slaying of Dior, Thingol's heir, and thereafter he shut his ear to word of the woes without; and he vowed to march never at the side of any son of Feanor; and his folk he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills.
The next text to be looked upon are the Earliest Annals of Beleriand (AB I the later Version AB II does not reach the Fall of Gondolin). In them the founding of Gondolin is recorded much earlier and Turgon does find Tumladin because he is trouble by dreams send by Ulmo. The Presage of Tuor coming is not in this Annals and the encounter of Tuor with Ulmo and Turgon is very condensed:
Quote:
Ulmo himself appears to him in Nan-tathrin; and Tuor and Bronweg guided by Ulmo find Gondolin. They are received after questioning, and Tuor speaks the embassy of Ulmo. Turgon does not now harken to it, partly because of the urging of Meglin. But Tuor for his kindred's sake is held in great honour.
What followed were the Later Annals of Beleriand (AB2) based closely on AB II as far as it goes and then on AB I. Therefore again the presage of Tuors journey is not included. And the passage of Tuor meeting with Ulmo and Turgon very short:
Quote:
Ulmo himself appeared to Tuor in Nantathrin, and Tuor went thence up Sirion, and guided by Ulmo found the entrance to Gondolin. There Tuor spake the embassy of Ulmo; but Turgon would not now harken to it, and Meglin urged him to this against Tuor.
In neither of the Annals up to this point did we have a recount of teh reaction of Trugon to the second kin-slaying.

The Quenta Simarillion (QS) version written between 1930 and 1937 never reached the Fall of Gondolin. And even so the departure of Turgon to Gondolin is reported the message of Ulmo upon his departure is not.

This message is reported in the Gray Annals (GA) under the year 116 and later under year 496 are also reported the meetings of Tuor with Ulmo and Turgon, the second kin-slaying is not reached by this text:
Quote:
In this year Gondolin was full-wrought, after fifty [added: and 2] years of secret toil. Now therefore Turgon prepared to depart from Nivrost, and leave his fair halls in Vinyamar beneath Mount Taras; and then [for the last time Ulmo himself came to him >] Ulmo came to him a second time / and said: 'Now thou shalt go at last to Gondolin, Turgon; and I will set my power in the Vale of Sirion, so that none shall mark thy going, nor shall any find there the hidden entrance to thy land against thy will. Longest of all the realms of the Eldalie shall Gondolin stand against Melkor. But love it not too well, and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.'
And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove. 'Thus it may come to pass,' he said, 'that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason shall awake within thy walls. Then shall they be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh, then even from Nivrost one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men. Leave, therefore, in this house arms and a sword, that in years to come he may find them, and thus shalt thou know him and be not deceived.' And Ulmo showed to Turgon of what kind and stature should be the mail and helm and sword that he left behind.

Here Tuor son of Huor met Bronwe of the Noldor at the mouths of Sirion; and they began a journey northward along the great river. But as they dwelt in Nan Tathrin, and delayed because of the peace and beauty of that country in the spring, Ulmo himself came up Sirion and appeared to Tuor, and the yearning for the Great Sea was ever after in his heart. But now at Ulmo's command he went up Sirion, and by the power that Ulmo set upon them Tuor and Bronwe found the guarded entrance to Gondolin. There Tuor was brought before King Turgon, and spake the words that Ulmo had set in his mouth, bidding him depart and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down to the Sea. But Turgon would not listen to this counsel; and [Meglin later >] Glindur his sister-son spoke against Tuor. But Tuor was held in honour in Gondolin, for his kindred's sake.
This annal was much emended and added to (and the date changed to 495), and then (since the text was now in a very confused state) struck out as far as 'bidding him depart' and replaced by the following version on a detached slip:
495 Now Tuor Huor's son had lived as an outlaw in the caves of Androth above Mithrim for four years, and he had done great hurt to the Easterlings, and Lorgan set a price upon his head. But Ulmo, who had chosen him as the instrument of his designs, caused him to go by secret ways out of the land of Dorlomin, so that his going was hidden from all the servants of Morgoth; and he came to Nivrost. But there, becoming enamoured of the Sea, he tarried long; and in the autumn of the year Ulmo himself appeared to Tuor, and bade him to depart, and go to the hidden city of Turgon. And he sent to him Voronwe, last of the mariners of Turgon, to guide him; and Voronwe led Tuor eastward along the eaves of Eryd Wethion to Ivrin. (And there they saw Turin pass, but spoke not with him.) And at the last by the power that Ulmo set upon them they came to the guarded gate of Gondolin. There Tuor was brought before the king, and spoke the counsel of Ulmo, bidding Turgon [the following is the text already given] depart and abandon the fair and mighty city that he had built, and go down to the Sea. But Turgon would not listen to this counsel; and [Meglin later >] Glindur his sister-son spoke against Tuor. But Tuor was held in honour in Gondolin, for his kindred's sake.
The Later Quenta Silmarillion did add nothing to the GA entrance for 116 in which the last meeting of Ulmo and Turgon in Nevrast is told and never reached the Fall of Gondolin.

There remains one text of quite a different kind. A plot synopsis for the story of Turin given in HoME 11 in the Chapter The Wanderings of Húrin but it does not tell much:
Quote:
Tuor escapes from Hithlum by Cirith Ninniach and comes to Nivrost. He meets Gelmir and Arminas. Ulmo visits him on the shores by Mount Taras, and sends Voronwe to him. Tuor and Voronwe go to seek Gondolin which they reach in winter.
Last but not least as we have already mentioned that text several times in the discussion we have the Tale of the Years (ToY). It has several stages of development (A to D) which I will try to give in full for the important parts. None of excerpts that we were given cover the founding of Gondolin nor the coming of Tuor to the city. Of importance is rather the second kin-slaying and the reaction of Turgon to it.
ToY A:
Quote:
506 The Second Kin-slaying.
507 The Fall of Gondolin. Death of King Turgon.
ToY B:
Quote:
509 (Spring) Second Kinslaying. Last warning of Ulmo to Gondolin.
510 The fall of Gondolin at Midsummer. Death of King Turgon.
So no report of Turgons reaction in this early phases.

ToY C:
Quote:
511 [> 509] The Second Kinslaying. The Sons of Feanor assail[ed] Dior, and he was slain; slain also were Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir. Eldun and Elrun sons of Dior were left in the woods to starve. Elwing escaped and came with the Silmaril to the Mouths of Sirion. Ulmo sends a last warning to Gondolin, which now alone is left; but Turgon will have no alliance with any after the kinslaying of Doriath. Maeglin Eol's son, sister-son of Turgon, was taken in the hills, and betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth.
512 [> 510] The Fall of Gondolin. Death of King Turgon.
Luckily the last warning of Ulmo from ToY B is gone, but therefore we get a reaction of Turgon to the assault of the Feanorians upon Dior. The interesting thing is that it has not been in the earlier stages. So it is clear that Tolkien did not copy it dully as has been argued for other such cases. He rather remembered it (probably by rereading of Q30) and put it actively into ToY C.

ToY D:
Quote:
506-507 At Yule Dior fought the sons of Feanor on the east marches of Doriath, and was slain. There fell also Celegorn (by Dior's hand) and Curufin and Cranthir. The cruel servants of Celegorn seize Dior's sons (Elrun and Eldun) and leave them to starve in the forest. (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir.) [In margin: Maidros repenting seeks unavailingly for the children of Dior.] The Lady Lindis escaped with Elwing, and came hardly to Ossir, with the Necklace and the Jewel. Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion.
509 Maeglin captured by spies of Melkor (Sauron?).
510 Midsummer. Assault and sack of Gondolin, owing to treachery of Maeglin who revealed where it lay.
So here the reaction of Turgon to the second kin-slaying is again left out.

I hope that I cached all relevant sources. My own conclusions have to wait another day until I find time to go over all the sources collected here again.

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Old 10-09-2014, 03:07 PM   #139
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"I hope that I cached all relevant sources. My own conclusions have to wait another day until I find time to go over all the sources collected here again."

I'll try to do the same, that is not so little.

I only want to add other sentence, that possibly influenced me very much from the very first time I read it and I think it's important to that matter.

In paragraph 235 of GA theres a sentence of Huor to Turgon very relevant (resumed):'Yet if it stands but a little while', said Huor,' then out of thy house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to thee,lord, with the eyes of death;...., from thee and me shall a new star arise. Farewell!'

(speculation) If Huor had this 'vision', what could not had Ulmo?

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Old 10-10-2014, 06:17 AM   #140
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Okay, the passage gondowe has mentioned has no prerunner. It arises first in GA I will give it here a bit fuller than gondowe:
Quote:
The day was lost, but still Huri and Huor with the men of Hador stood firm, and the Orcs could not yet win the passes of Sirion. Thus was the treachery of Uldor redressed; and the last stand of Hurin and Huor is the deed of war most renowned among the Eldar that the Fathers of Men wrought in their behalf. For Hurin spoke to Turgon saying: 'Go now, lord, while time is! For last art thou of the House of Fingolfin, and in thee lives the last hope of the Noldor. While Gondolin stands, strong and guarded, Morgoth shall still know fear in his heart.'
'Yet not long now can Gondolin be hidden, and being discovered it must fall,' said Turgon.
'Yet [a while it must stand,' said Hurin; 'for out of Gondolin >] if it stands but a little while,' said [Hurin >] Huor, 'then out of [Gondolin later >] thy house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to thee, lord, with the eyes of death; though here we part for ever, and I shall never look on thy white walls, from thee and me shall a new star arise. Farewell!'
[Struck out: Then Turgon withdrew and all the Noldor of Gondolin went back down Sirion and vanished into the hills. But all the remnant of the host of the west gathered about the brethren and held the pass behind them.]
[Added subsequently:] And [Glindur later >] Maeglin, Turgon's sister-son, who stood by heard these words and marked them well, [struck out later: and looked closely at Huor,] but said naught.
Then Turgon accepted the valiant words of the brethren, and summoning all that remained of the folk of Gondolin, and such of Fingon's host as could be gathered, he [withdrew >] fought his way southward, and escaped down Sirion, and vanished into the mountains and was hidden from the eyes of Morgoth. ...
Yes, I also think that when Huor could tell so much, we might be sure that Ulmo could have seen the future more clearly. But what did Huor presage here? With our after knowledge we see the connection to Earendil, but what could it have meant for the poeple around like Turgon and Maeglin? The reference to the Star must have been dark to every one until the events around Earendil happend. So it only could mean that the offspring of Huor and Turgon would play a significant part in the later history of Arda.

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Old 10-10-2014, 09:05 AM   #141
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I did also forget to put one of the most important sources into the collection, the UT version of the later Tale of Tuor (TO). It does not reach the conversation between Tuor and Turgon, but we have the encounter of Tuor with Ulmo and we have some other interesting hints:
Quote:
‘Arise, Tuor, son of Huor!’ said Ulmo. ‘Fear not my wrath, though long have I called to thee unheard; and setting out at last thou hast tarried on thy journey hither. In the Spring thou shouldst have stood here; but now a fell winter cometh soon from the land of the Enemy. Haste thou must learn, and the pleasant road that I designed for thee must be changed. For my counsels have been scorned, and a great evil creeps upon the Valley of Sirion, and already a host of foes is come between thee and thy goal.’
‘What then is my goal, Lord?’ said Tuor.
‘That which thy heart hath ever sought,’ answered Ulmo: ‘to find Turgon, and look upon the hidden city. For thou art arrayed thus to be my messenger, even in the arms which long ago I decreed for thee. Yet now thou must under shadow pass through peril. Wrap thyself therefore in this cloak, and cast it never aside, until thou come to thy journey's end.’
Then it seemed to Tuor that Ulmo parted his grey mantle, and cast to him a lappet, and as it fell about him it was for him a great cloak wherein he might wrap himself over all, from head to foot.
‘Thus thou shall walk under my shadow,’ said Ulmo. ‘But tarry no more; for in the lands of Anar and in the fires of Melkor it will not endure. Wilt thou take up my errand?’
‘I will, Lord,’ said Tuor.
‘Then I will set words in thy mouth to say unto Turgon,’ said Ulmo. ‘But first I will teach thee, and some things thou shall hear which no Man else hath heard, nay, not even the mighty among the Eldar.’ And Ulmo spoke to Tuor of Valinor and its darkening, and the Exile of the Noldor, and the Doom of Mandos, and the hiding of the Blessed Realm. ‘But behold!’ said he, ‘in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach, until the full-making, which ye call the End. So it shall be while I endure, a secret voice that gainsayeth, and a light where darkness was decreed. Therefore, though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World. Yet Doom is strong, and the shadow of the Enemy lengthens; and I am diminished, until in Middle-earth I am become now no more than a secret whisper. The waters that run westward wither, and their springs are poisoned, and my power withdraws from the land; for Elves and Men grow blind and deaf to me because of the might of Melkor. And now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfilment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they build shall crumble. The last hope alone is left, the hope that they have not looked for and have not prepared. And that hope lieth in thee; for so I have chosen.’
‘Then shall Turgon not stand against Morgoth, as all the Eldar yet hope?’ said Tuor. ‘And what wouldst thou of me, Lord, if I come now to Turgon? For though I am indeed willing to do as my father and stand by that king in his need, yet of little avail shall I be, a mortal man alone, among so many and so valiant of the High Folk of the West.‘
‘If I choose to send thee, Tuor son of Huor, then believe not that thy one sword is not worth the sending. For the valour of the Edain the Elves shall ever remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which they had on earth so little. But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness.’
And as Ulmo said these things the mutter of the storm rose to a great cry, and the wind mounted, and the sky grew black; and the mantle of the Lord of Waters streamed out like a flying cloud. ‘Go now,’ said Ulmo, ‘lest the Sea devour thee! For Ossë obeys the will of Mandos, and he is wroth, being a servant of the Doom.’
‘As thou commandest,’ said Tuor. ‘But if I escape the Doom, what words shall I say unto Turgon?’
‘If thou come to him,’ answered Ulmo, ‘then the words shall arise in thy mind, and thy mouth shall speak as I would. Speak and fear not! And thereafter do as thy heart and valour lead thee. Hold fast to my mantle, for thus shalt thou be guarded. And I will send one to thee out of the wrath of Ossë, and thus shalt thou be guided: yea, the last mariner of the last ship that shall seek into the West until the rising of the Star. Go now back to the land!’
Then there was a noise of thunder, and lightning flared over the sea; and Tuor beheld Ulmo standing among the waves as a tower of silver flickering with darting flames; and he cried against the wind:
‘I go, Lord! Yet now my heart yearneth rather to the Sea.’
...
‘I do not bid you to lead me further than the gate,’ said Tuor. ‘There Doom shall strive with the Counsel of Ulmo. And if Turgon will not receive me, then my errand will be ended, and Doom shall prevail. But as for my right to seek Turgon: I am Tuor son of Huor and kin to Húrin, whose names Turgon will not forget. And I seek also by the command of Ulmo. Will Turgon forget that which he spoke to him of old: Remember that the last hope of the Noldor cometh from the Sea? Or again: When peril is nigh one shall come from Nevrast to warn thee? I am he that should come, and I am arrayed thus in the gear that was prepared for me.’
Tuor marvelled to hear himself speak so, for the words of Ulmo to Turgon at his going from Nevrast were not known to him before, nor to any save the Hidden People. Therefore the more amazed was Voronwë; but he turned away, and looked toward the Sea, and he sighed.
...
Elemmakil saluted him and said: ‘Here have I brought Voronwë Aranwion, returning from Balar; and here is the stranger that he has led hither, who demands to see the King.’
Then Ecthelion turned to Tuor, but he drew his cloak about him and stood silent, facing him; and it seemed to Voronwë that a mist mantled Tuor and his stature was increased, so that the peak of his high hood over-topped the helm of the Elf-lord, as it were the crest of a grey sea-wave riding to the land. But Ecthelion bent his bright glance upon Tuor, and after a silence he spoke gravely, saying: ‘You have come to the Last Gate. Know then that no stranger who passes it shall ever go out again, save by the door of death.’
‘Speak not ill-boding! If the messenger of the Lord of Waters go by that door, then all those who dwell here will follow him. Lord of the Fountains, hinder not the messenger of the Lord of Waters!’
Then Voronwë and all those who stood near looked again in wonder at Tuor, marvelling at his words and voice. And to Voronwë it seemed as if he heard a great voice, but as of one who called from afar off. But to Tuor it seemed that he listened to himself speaking, as if another spoke with his mouth.
For a while Ecthelion stood silent, looking at Tuor, and slowly awe filled his face, as if in the grey shadow of Tuor's cloak he saw visions from far away. Then he bowed, and went to the fence and laid hands upon it, and gates opened inward on either side of the pillar of the Crown. . Then Tuor passed through, and coming to a high sward that looked out over the valley beyond, he beheld a vision of Gondolin amid the white snow. And so entranced was he that for long he could look at nothing else; for he saw before him at last the vision of his desire out of dreams of longing.
Thus he stood and spoke no word. Silent upon either hand stood a host of the army of Gondolin; all of the seven kinds of the Seven Gates were there represented; but their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey. Then even as they gazed on Tuor in wonder, his cloak fell down, and he stood there before them in the mighty livery of Nevrast. And many were there who had seen Turgon himself set these things upon the wall behind the High Seat of Vinyamar.
Then Ecthelion said at last: ‘Now no further proof is needed; and even the name he claims as son of Huor matters less than this clear truth, that he comes from Ulmo himself.’
The text is closely temporary to the GA and we see here only slight differences in wording between the warnings of Ulmo to Turgon and Tuor quoting them.

I will try to group and summarize the sources:
LT:
Tuor ask Turgon first to prepare for war.
When Turgon denies, Tuor urges him 'dare greatly' which only can mean to start that war and describes the terrible battle and glorious outcome if Turgon would follow the wishes of Ulmo.
When Turgon denies again, Tuor ask him to send messengers into the west to move the Valar to a war against Melkor.
Turgon denies again by reason of the former fruitless trials.

Sketch and Q I:
Tuor ask Turgon to prepare for the war since Ulmo will move the Valar to send him succour. He describes the terrible battle and glorious outcome if Turgon would follow the wishes of Ulmo. If Turgon denies he is to ask him depart with his people from Gondolin to the mouth of Sirion seeking back to Valinor by the help of Ulmo.
Q II is very similar to Q I, but we have two great differences. The first is the role of Tuor, if Turgon would do the biding of Ulmo. In the Sketch and Q I he is to go with a force to Hithlum and bring the Men of Hithlum back to an aliance with Turgon. In Q II it is to the East that he should go for the same reason and supposedly without a force of warriors.
The second is more interesting here. It is a new element in Q II, were Ulmo does suggest a reconciliation with the Feanorians. And in the same text we get for the first time Turgons vow after the second kin-slaying never to make an alliance with the Feanorians. These two elements (Ulmo asking for an alliance and Turgon later definite denial) are most clearly connected.

GA, TO and ToY:
The message was not given in full, but the wording does for me suggest that it was more than just ask Turgon to abandon Gondolin and go down to the sea. In TO Ulmo reveals to Tuor that 'now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfilment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they build shall crumble.' Even as Tuor does this could be read to mean that 'Turgon [shall] not stand against Morgoth, as all the Eldar yet hope'. But the answer of Ulmo is not straightforward. He does rather suggest that Tuors 'sword' would be crucial to the outcome of such a battle.
The mentioning of the denial of Trugon ever to build an alliance with the Feanorians in ToY C does, for me, suggest that such biding of Ulmo was at that time still present. And for what could such an alliance be good, if not for a war against Morgoth? That it is not mentioned in ToY D does not matter much to me, since it is true for many elements of the story that survived for sure. I think ToY was a kind of a working chronology for Tolkien. While writing down the different versions he put into them elements that at these moments seem important to him. In that way it is much more telling that an element is mentioned, than the missing of it in the next version.
But one part of the message is clearly gone and that we did so far not eliminate in our text (even so gondowe suggested to do so): Ulmo addresses of Voronwe in TO as 'the last mariner of the last ship that shall seek into the West until the rising of the Star.' Thus Tuor can not ask Turgon to send messengers into the west, because Ulmo foretold already that it would be worthless.
On the other hand it seems clear that Tuor has to ask Turgon (at least at the end of the conversation) to leave Gondolin, which we also so far did not put into our text.

Before I start to build a text for this section we better would find a common ground what elements we will take up. My conclusions from the text study are:
Tuor ask Turgon to prepare for a War against Morgoth (I would leave it open if he is to start that war or if he should only prepare for the war to come, no version of the text did clearly urge Turgon to an assault, even so LT hardly could be interpreted other than in that way).
Turgon denies.
Tuor speaks about the means (alliance with the Men of the east and the Feanorians, probably succour by the Valar urged to this by Ulmo) and consequences of that war (terrible battle but a chance for a real victory).
Turgon denies again.
Tuor bides him to abandon Gondolin and search refuge under Ulmos protection at Sirions mouth (he mentions unknown dangers greater than expected and a harder future for Middle-Earth if that course is taken).
Maeglin speaks against the counsel of Ulmo and Idril supports it, so she and the wiser councilors are already troubled that Turgon did not follow the original biding.
Turgon denies again by blaming the Valar for being blind and deaf against his messengers asking for help and of being not helpful so far in protecting his people against Morgoth.

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Old 10-12-2014, 03:28 AM   #142
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Well, Thinking in your last proposal , I can assume a preparing for war of Turgon, but, I think (and all of you?) that that war must be the Last War of the First Age (called War of Wrath or whatever); and my problem would be that they must first abandon Gondolin (with children and wives) that needs a considerably preparation, and second prepare for war. This could be implicit in the counsel but it could be inserted in the text in some way (merely changing the order of words).

How wish the rest of fellows starting with Aiwendil could read and think in this matter.

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Old 10-12-2014, 10:22 PM   #143
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I'm around and, though I haven't had time to read through the last few days' discussion yet, I intend to do so this week. Very good to see you both around!
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Old 10-13-2014, 09:47 AM   #144
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I would like to add again one peace of effidance. We already took it up in our 'final' text of the corrosponding chapter. It comes from The History of Middle-Earth; volume 5: The Lost Road; Part 2: [I]Valinor and Middle-Earth before The Lord of the Rings[I]; chapter VI: Quenta Silmarillion with the emendations given in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 11: The War of the Jewels; part 2: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; The Last Chapters.
Quote:
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after. And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords; and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by Eärendel son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
Does that not mean that at least the mission of Tuor to bring help from Men unto Turgon is still valid?

And farther it showes for me in which direction we have to think about the supposedly better outcame of the War, had Turgon follwed Ulmos advise: Imaging a host of Men under the guidiance of Tuor marching from the east to the Battle would have prefented the the Orc from being 'swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind' but forced them all to be 'perished like straw in a great fire'.

On a more general basis, I agree with gondowe that it was Ulmos intent to get the Gondolindrim out of Gondolin as sun as possible. After thinking longer about it, I am even no longer sure if the flight to the mouth of Sirion and the preparation for the battle to come wouldn't be one and the same or at least the one part of the other.

I also would like to share my thoughts about how these words of Ulmo 'Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed' could become true (even so I am sure that nothing of this will find his way into our text). At this point in history Turgon had no feud with the sons of Feanor. The feud was between the Feanorians and Doraith, which still stood. If Turgon would follow Ulmos path, he would have to form an alliance with both Thingol and the Feanorians. The only way I can see for this, is Thingol giving the Silmaril to Maedron. I would assume that Ulmo whished Turgon to akt like a moderator in this feud, while he tried to build his alliance. In the end we also know that the Silmaril had to come to Earendil soon or later, which again could only mean that Maedron would give to Earendil out of free will. Wouldn't that have been a real path of healing of Arda marred?

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Old 10-13-2014, 12:33 PM   #145
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Turgon had feud with Fëanor (and his sons after him) of old, because the death of his wife Elenwë in the Helcaraxë. i think is said in the Shibboleth of FËanor.
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Old 10-14-2014, 05:57 AM   #146
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Ah yes, I did forget that. Thanks for the reminder.

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Old 10-27-2014, 01:01 PM   #147
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At long last I will put forward a draft version of the counsel Ulmo:
Quote:
FG-T-23 Then Turgon {king of Gondolin} <Narn King of Gondolin>, <TO tallest of all the Children of the World, save Thingol>, robed in white with a belt of gold, and a coronet of garnets was upon his head, <TO {with a}[and at his side] a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone sheath,> stood before his doors and spake from the head of the white stairs that led thereto. ‘Welcome, O Man of the Land of Shadows. Lo! thy coming was {set in our books of wisdom}[foretold by Ulmo], {and it has been written}[saying] that {there would come to pass many great things in the homes of the Gondothlim} <QS77 beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men> whenso thou faredst hither.’ <QS77 {and}[And] upon the King's right hand there stood Maeglin his sister-son, but upon his left hand sat Idril Celebrindal his daughter> <TO {and that it was to be emphasized, either when Tuor first set eyes upon Idril or at some earlier point, that}[and at the sight of her Tuor marvelled, for] he had known or even seen few women in his life. Most of the women and all the children of Annael's company in Mithrim were sent away south; and as a thrall Tuor had seen only the proud and barbarous women of the Easterlings, who treated him as a beast, or the unhappy slaves forced to labour from childhood, for whom he had only pity.>
FG-T-24 Then spake Tuor, and Ulmo set power in his heart and majesty in his voice. ‘Behold, O father of the City of Stone, I am bidden by him who maketh deep music in the Abyss, and who knoweth the mind of Elves and Men, to say unto thee that the days of Release draw nigh. FG-T-24.1{There have come to the ears of Ulmo whispers of your dwelling and your hill of vigilance against the evil of Melko, and he is glad: but his}His heart is wroth FG-T-24.2{and the hearts of the Valar are angered who sit in the mountains of Valinor and look upon the world from the peak of Taniquetil,} seeing the sorrow of the thraldom of the {Noldoli}[Elves] and the wanderings of Men; for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond {hills of iron}[Ered Wethrin]. FG-T-24.3 Therefore have I been brought by a secret way to FG-T-24.4 <QS77 {And he gave}give warning to {Turgon}you that the Curse of Mandos now hastened to its fulfilment, when all the works of the Noldor should perish> and bid you number your hosts FG-T-24.6<Q30 abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people down Sirion> FG-T-24.5 and prepare for battle, for the time is ripe.'
FG-T-25 Then spake Turgon: ‘That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of {Melko}[Morgoth].’
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ FG-T-24.7 And he bade Turgon again <Q30 {bidding him} to prepare for war, and battle with Morgoth ere all was lost; FG-T-24.75{and to send again his messengers into the West}<Q30; QI promising that Ulmo would win the hearts of the Valar to send him succour.>. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Hurin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count. A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoth's power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>

FG-T-25.3<QS77 Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.'> FG-T-25.31<Q30 But proud was Turgon become, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of {Tun}[Tirion], and he trusted in its secret and impregnable strength FG-T-25.32<QS77 , though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad>{; so that} he and the most part of his folk wished not to imperil it nor leave it, and they desired not to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without; nor did they any longer desire to return through dread and danger to the West. FG-T-25.34{Meglin}[Maeglin] spoke ever against Tuor in the councils of the king, and his words seemed the more weighty in that they went with Turgon's heart. Wherefore Turgon rejected the bidding of Ulmo; though some there were of his wisest counsellors who were filled with disquiet. Wise-hearted even beyond the measure of the daughters of Elfinesse was the daughter of the king, and she spoke ever for Tuor, though it did not avail, and her heart was heavy. Very fair and tall was she, well nigh of warrior's stature, and her hair was a fountain of gold. Idril was she named, and called Celebrindal, Silver-foot, for the whiteness of her foot; and she walked and danced ever unshod in the white ways and green lawns of Gondolin.>
FG-T-25.5 But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long FG-T-25.53{ages}[years] gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that FG-T-25.54{men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of Kôr and the Gods sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of Melko, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite Melko, and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’} <Q30{But} if {Turgon}you would not go forth to this war, then {he}you should abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people down Sirion, and build there {his }fleets and seek back to Valinor and the mercy of the {Gods}[Valar]. But in this counsel there {was}is danger more dire than in the other, though so it might not seem; and grievous thereafter would be the fate of the Outer Lands.
This errand Ulmo performed out of his love of the Elves, and because he knew that ere many years were passed the doom of Gondolin would come, if its people sat still behind its walls; not thus should anything of joy or beauty in the world be preserved from Morgoth's malice.> FG-T-24.91 Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished]>.
Then said Turgon: ‘FG-T-25.57{Every year}[Ever and anon] at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river FG-T-26 {that is called} Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of {Melko}[Morgoth] or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths; and FG-T-25.58{at the coming of next year}[now] no more shall fare to the sea, but rather will we trust to ourselves and our city for the warding off of {Melko}[Morgoth]; and thereto have the Valar been of scant help aforetime.’
Then Tuor's heart was heavy, and Voronwë wept; and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea. But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would, FG-TG-01 <GA for Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake>.
Then Tuor, for he was weary, and that place was fair, said yea; and hence cometh the abiding of Tuor in Gondolin. FG-TG-01.5 <QS77{but}

But
in the warning of Ulmo Turgon heard again the words that were spoken before the departing Noldor on the coast of Araman long ago; and the fear of treason was wakened in Turgon's heart. Therefore FG-T-26.7 in that time the very entrance to the hidden door in the Encircling Mountains was caused to be blocked up; and thereafter none went ever forth from Gondolin on any errand of peace or war, while that city stood.FG-T-25.33<QS77 Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and secret that none could find.>

>Of all Tuor's deeds among the {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] the tales tell not, ...
Comments:
FG-T-23: This complete paragraph was already discussed and agreed. I add it only for completness.
FG-T-24: This marks only were the counsel of Ulmo (and the troule with it) begins.
FG-T-24.1: That Ulmo knowest of Gondolin is a given fact in our version, therefore this must go.
FG-T-24.2: Earlier when he spoke to Tuor in Vinyamar Ulmo said that he did send Tuor against the will of the other Valar. Therefore he should not mention them here.
FG-T-24.3: This first part of the sentence was skipt by gondowe, but I think it should be kept.
FG-T-24.4: I put the warning first, to give it more wiegth.
FG-T-24.6 & FG-T-24.5: As result of our discussion so far I think that the emphasis should lay on leaving the city therefore I changed the posistions of these two.
FG-T-25: As explained earlier I think that Turgons first 'No' should come here to urge Tuor on to say more about the battle to come. Therefore the editing marks are hereafter no longer numbered in a stright forward fashion, but stick to the text fragments to which they were first applied.
FG-T-24.7: Here I used a big part of Q30 which is the latest telling we have. And I tried not to fragment its as much as we have done before.
FG-T-24.75: The biding to send again mesengers has to go since Ulmo already told Tuor in Vinyamar that Voronwe is the last until Earendil. But I took up the promis of Ulmo to move the Valar to succuor Turgon, because Ulmo does try exactly that when Tuor has brought the remants of Gondolin to Sirions moth.
FG-T-25.3: If we want to put in FG-T-25.34 from Q30 with Maeglin speaking against Tuor, we need an intro here. And even so I am a bit reluctant to use that source QS77 is the best we can find and it is a nice echo of the words of Ulmo which come ultimatley from GA.
FG-T-25.31: At this point at last we know were the text from QS77 comes from.
FG-T-25.32: This change is questionable. It does bring the original text of Q30 to the text found in QS77. The text sound better to my ear, but we can consider it as a change for style only and reject it.
FG-T-25.34: I kept the editing mark even so it seems useless know.
FG-T-25.5: Here we have the second dinial of Turgon from the original FoG.
FG-T-25.53: The ages are out of question. I wonder how they ever fited the time frame of LT.
FG-T-25.54: Agian the messengers that must go see FG-T-24.2. But what follows is now Ulmos second best choice for Turgon taken from Q30: If war is not wanted then flight might prevent the worst. And I in addition took up Ulmos motive for biding Turgon.
FG-T-24.91: I think that here is the right place to end Tuors mission. He has brought forward all choices and arguments that Ulmo could give.
FG-T-25.57: When Voronwe was the last, then Turgon can no longer say 'Every year'. But the meaning of 'to often' should be kept.
FG-T-26: Not sure of this verys old change. It is rather one of style.
FG-T-25.58: See FG-T-25.57.
FG-GT-01: This was already agreed upon. We need an intro for FG-T-26.7 which in its turn is needed for the story of Húrin in WH.
FG-T-25.33: This we can probably leave out, but I found it very fitting as closer to the debate of Turgon and Tuor.

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Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 10-29-2014 at 05:20 AM. Reason: I found that we had [b]FG-T-26.7[/b] in already in a better place.
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Old 10-28-2014, 06:18 AM   #148
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I would like to add to small passages even so that goes against my own counsel not to fragment the text as much as we have done before.
FG-T-24.77: The first deals with Tuor's role. As we agreed that the most improtant part for Ulmo was the fathering of Earendil, it might be necessary to emphasis that Tuor was never supposed to leave Gondolin at once to search for an allaince with men. This was made clear in the Sketch. I would add it in this way:
Quote:
...
Then spake Tuor: ‘Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the {Noldoli}[Noldor]; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and {Melko}[Melkor]'s power be minished to a little thing.’ FG-T-24.7 And he bade Turgon again <Q30 {bidding him} to prepare for war, and battle with Morgoth ere all was lost; FG-T-24.75{and to send again his messengers into the West.}<Q30; QI promising that Ulmo would win the hearts of the Valar to send him succour.> FG-T-24.77 <S If Turgon {does}did {Ylmir}[Ulmo]'s will Tuor {is}was to abide a while in Gondolin>, but summons{Summons} too should {he}Turgon send into the East and gather, if he might, Men (who were now multiplying and spreading on the earth) unto his banners; and for that task Tuor was most fit. 'Forget,' counselled Ulmo, 'the treachery of Uldor the accursed, and remember Húrin; for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs.' Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed; for this should be the last gathering of the hope of the {Gnomes}[Noldor], when every sword should count. A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoth's power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.>
...
FG-T-25.55: The other comes from Q30 version QI. It might be a minor point only, but I think that the promise of Ulmo to help building the fleet is improtant. We know alrady that the messengers of Turgon needed the help of Cirdan to build their ships and learn how to use them. But none of them reached Valinor. So it seem important that Ulmo would promise some help, otherwise that option would be considered hopless any how:
Quote:
...
FG-T-25.5 But Turgon said that he was king of Gondolin and no will should force him against his counsel to emperil the dear labour of long FG-T-25.53{ages}[years] gone; but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: ‘Then am I bidden to say that FG-T-25.54{men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of Kôr and the Gods sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of Melko, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite Melko, and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness.’} <Q30; QII{But} if {Turgon}you would not go forth to this war, then {he}you should abandon Gondolin and lead {his}your people down Sirion, FG-T-25.55<Q30; QI ere Morgoth could oppose him, and at Sirion's mouth Ulmo would befriend him, and lend his aid to the building of a mighty fleet wherein the {Gnomes}[Noldor] should> {and build there his fleets and} seek back to Valinor and the mercy of the {Gods}[Valar]. But in this counsel there {was}is danger more dire than in the other, though so it might not seem; and grievous thereafter would be the fate of the Outer Lands.
This errand Ulmo performed out of his love of the Elves, and because he knew that ere many years were passed the doom of Gondolin would come, if its people sat still behind its walls; not thus should anything of joy or beauty in the world be preserved from Morgoth's malice.> FG-T-24.91 Thus <Q30 Tuor spoke the embassy of Ulmo <TO in the hearing of all>, and something of the power and majesty of the Lord of Waters his voice had caught, so that all folk looked in wonder on him, and doubted that this were a Man of mortal race as he declared <TO {Ulmo's cloak would vanish when Tuor spoke the message to Turgon}[and when he had spoken, the cloak of Ulmo vanished]>.
...
I would like to add one thought here that seems also to have some impact: Ulmo had no full preknowledge of Earendils role! In 33 Of the Voyage of Eärendil it is reported, that when the fugitives of Gondolin and Doriath mingeld at the Havens of Sirion Ulmo himslef spoke to the Valar 'and he called on them to forgive and send succour unto them and rescue them from the overmastering might of Morgoth'. If it would have been clear for Ulmo that Earendils role was that of the messenger in person pleading for pity and forgivness, why then make this worthless try? So the natural conclusion is that he had great knowledge about Earendils vieta: the first to sail a ship back to Valinor, carrying the Silmaril on his brow into the sky as a new star; but no clear vision of the importance of his first arrival in Valinor.

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Old 12-08-2014, 04:17 AM   #149
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Sorry for the delay, but my lack of time is frustrating. I would like to work in this project with all my strength.
I had time to read the proposals above and compare. I think that the two "new" texts are redundant or against my point of view expressed before. But this is my opinion. What do they think the other fellows?

As for:
"I would like to add one thought here that seems also to have some impact: Ulmo had no full preknowledge of Earendils role! In 33 Of the Voyage of Eärendil it is reported, that when the fugitives of Gondolin and Doriath mingeld at the Havens of Sirion Ulmo himslef spoke to the Valar 'and he called on them to forgive and send succour unto them and rescue them from the overmastering might of Morgoth'. If it would have been clear for Ulmo that Earendils role was that of the messenger in person pleading for pity and forgivness, why then make this worthless try? So the natural conclusion is that he had great knowledge about Earendils vieta: the first to sail a ship back to Valinor, carrying the Silmaril on his brow into the sky as a new star; but no clear vision of the importance of his first arrival in Valinor."

But Manwe said "No". Again a speculation but possibly Ulmo wanted, for a desperately last time, to avoid the last deeds that could happen (and happened). So I think is still valid that text. But another way is to delete it in that chapter 33.

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Old 12-09-2014, 01:01 PM   #150
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Ah gondowe, good to have your input again. I felt abit alone in this discussion and it seems I have overdone it a bit.

To make things easier, we should work first in outlines. The outline I follwed making my preposal had been (I added the two points mention from my last post):
- Tuor ask Turgon to prepare for a War against Morgoth (I would leave it open if he is to start that war or if he should only prepare for the war to come, no version of the text did clearly urge Turgon to an assault, even so LT hardly could be interpreted other than in that way).
- Turgon denies.
- Tuor speaks about the means (alliance with the Men of the east build by the help of Tuor after a time of abiding in Gondolin and the Feanorians, probably succour by the Valar urged to this by Ulmo) and consequences of that war (terrible battle but a chance for a real victory).
- Turgon denies again.
- Tuor bides him to abandon Gondolin and search refuge under Ulmos protection at Sirions mouth and build with Ulmos help a fleet to sail back to Valinor (he mentions unknown dangers greater than expected and a harder future for Middle-Earth if that course is taken).
- Maeglin speaks against the counsel of Ulmo and Idril supports it, so she and the wiser councilors are already troubled that Turgon did not follow the original biding.
- Turgon denies again by blaming the Valar for being blind and deaf against his messengers asking for help and of being not helpful so far in protecting his people against Morgoth.

Since my argument did not convince you, I think you still wish to have Tour bid Turgon to abandon Gondolin from the first (right?). I myself find now that my arguemnts if take serois most mean that Ulmo can't ask Turgon to build a fleet, if he already fortold that Voronwe's ship was the last before Earendil.
To combine this, would that outline be okay for anybody:
- Tuor ask Turgon to prepare his people to abandon Gondolin and by that prepare for the War against Morgoth to come.
- Turgon denies.
- Tuor speaks about the means by which that war should be prepared (alliance with the Men of the east build by the help of Tuor after a time of abiding in Gondolin and the Feanorians, probably succour by the Valar urged to this by Ulmo) and consequences of that war (terrible battle but a chance for a real victory).
- Turgon denies again.
- Tuor bides him to abandon Gondolin and search refuge under Ulmos protection at Sirions mouth (he mentions unknown dangers greater than expected and a harder future for Middle-Earth if that course is taken).
- Maeglin speaks against the counsel of Ulmo and Idril supports it, so she and the wiser councilors are already troubled that Turgon did not follow the original biding.
- Turgon denies again by blaming the Valar for being blind and deaf against his messengers asking for help and of being not helpful so far in protecting his people against Morgoth.

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Old 12-10-2014, 12:09 PM   #151
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Apologies again for my lack of input. I should definitely have time over the Christmas break to get back into the discussion, but likely not before then.
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Old 12-11-2014, 03:01 PM   #152
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Well, for the construction I still think that grouping all Tuor's message in only one paragraph before the cloak of Ulmo vanish is better. And then only one and definitely denie of Turgon.
But in the end is the same "history information", so I think that agree for my part.

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Old 05-31-2015, 07:17 PM   #153
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I've reviewed the discussion to remind myself of where things stand.

Concerning Findegil's most recent proposed text, I have a few qualms; but perhaps it's not worth going into the gritty details if, as Findegil subsequently suggested, we are going to first try to agree on an outline.

Findegil, in your proposed outline, as in your text, you have Turgon refuse the counsel of war twice. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any precedent for this in any of the texts. The outline that I would be inclined to follow would be:

- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory).
- Turgon refuses this first counsel.
- Tuor bids him abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this advice.
- Turgon refuses this second counsel.

(I also have quibbles with the placement of certain text, which I think creates redundancies in your latest proposal, but perhaps we should agree on an outline first).

I think this also more closely matches Gondowe's desired outline, with the exception of the first refusal of Turgon coming in between the counsel of war and the counsel of abandonment.
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Old 06-01-2015, 03:37 AM   #154
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My outline with the double denial follows the Lost Tale version more or less.

But does not matter much since we are now beyond taking that one. Your proposal, Aiwendil, does bear the problem that it neither will serve gondowe's desire to have Turgon only once deny Tuor's biding nor does it take into account that it might be that there probably now no difrence between prepairing for war and prepairing for flight to the sea.

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Old 06-01-2015, 08:25 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Findegil View Post
My outline with the double denial follows the Lost Tale version more or less.
Ah, yes, I see that now.

Quote:
But does not matter much since we are now beyond taking that one. Your proposal, Aiwendil, does bear the problem that it neither will serve gondowe's desire to have Turgon only once deny Tuor's biding nor does it take into account that it might be that there probably now no difrence between prepairing for war and prepairing for flight to the sea.
I'm not convinced that there is now no difference between preparing for war and preparing for flight to the sea. Can you explain your reasons for coming to this conclusion?
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Old 06-01-2015, 04:12 PM   #156
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It was based on gondowe's input. If we accept that Ulmos first intent was to lead the Gondolindrim out of Gondolin than for me that means together with the promise of Ulmo that the Valar would send help for the battle against Morgoth, that the starting point for such a battle cold only be near the sea. And in which other place than the havens of Sirion would Turgon find a safe place for his people in that time?

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Old 06-02-2015, 11:31 AM   #157
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I'm afraid that, to me, it seems too great a liberty and too large a leap for us to insert explicit direction for Turgon to leave Gondolin in the counsel of war. I agree that the abandonment of Gondolin may be implied in the urging to war. But if it is implied already, then I don't think we do any harm by omitting explicit mention of it.

If Gondowe is adamantly against having any interruption by Turgon between, perhaps we could adopt the following outline:

- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory).
- Tuor further says that if Turgon refuses this counsel, then he should abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this (the latter) advice.
- Turgon refuses both the first counsel and the second counsel.

I do hope Gondowe will return at some point and explain his reluctance for the two counsels to be separated by Turgon's first refusal.

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Old 08-10-2015, 02:16 PM   #158
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Hello again, as I said in the General comments thread, recently discovered that the forum was running on again. So:

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Originally Posted by Aiwendil View Post
I do hope Gondowe will return at some point and explain his reluctance for the two counsels to be separated by Turgon's first refusal.
I said in a previous post that I agreed with last Findegil's text in the history information. I thought (and I think) was better because Ulmo's message must be (in my opinion, in the "last" conception, no that of LT) in only one breath and then the cloak vanish. And for me narratively looks better. But, repeat, I agree with Findegil's text, it tells the same at the end.

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Old 08-27-2015, 01:22 AM   #159
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Just a minor thing to get off my mind.

What do you make of the characters of Hendor and Meleth. More specifically, their names. Meleth appears later as the daughter of Hiril and Enthor of Brethil, so I guess the name is still valid in respect to the later development of Tolkien's languages.

I'm not sure about Hendor. Since I am no expert considering the linguistic studies of Tolkien's legendarium, it would be nice if someone with greater knowledge than me would jump in on the matter.

Not trying to sound too intrusive, simply trying to shed some light on specific matters that I noticed were not discussed before.
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Old 08-28-2015, 07:49 AM   #160
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As I am not linguistic expert myself, I can only tell you that we kept both names, without any discussion. That normaly would point out to the fact that the linguists about us felt them still possibly valid in later sindarin. (At least the names did not cry for attention like 'Rog'.)

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