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Old 01-22-2001, 12:34 PM   #1
lindil
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OUTLINE FOR EDITING OF:
Darkening of Valinor/ Rape of the Silmarils
[non-mt /old style version]

I think we have here a clear case of 282 - 295 being the final version written,
{with the exceptions of some of the annals of Aman being used in Rape of the Silm. [ hereafter RotS]}. So I am proposing we :

A&gt;&gt;each choose a couple of the 8 sections [Saulotus, you are overseeing? 4X2 =8 so feel free...] and compare it w/ I,IV,V, and 77 and see if there are nonconflicting details we want to include or other changes we need to ponder. Work up our individuual sections. Using the bracketing method mentioned in the Barrow's rules of Order earlier[?]
B&gt;&gt; Email the drafted portions to each other and then,
review and discuss our versions and then,
C&gt;&gt; see how it all goes together. ratify or modify and move on to the next one {Sun and Moon , I recall was agreed upon}

so please comment on A-C if you are fine w/ this approach pick 2 sections [ I will wait till the 2 or 3 of you pick your sections and do what is left over.
If I am overreaching the approach ,lets get it squared up.<img src=smile.gif ALT="">

OFTHE DARKENING OF VALINOR

section 1
55/55a- the valar in council, pondering melkor's intent [ a very short section ]
section 2
55b-57a-Morgoth recruits ungoliant.returns to valinor [a pretty large section -goes way &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp past 77]
section 3
58 a-c --can include some of the original festal procession from I [If no one minds I would&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp like to put my hand to this one]
section4
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 58 d-f -- the destruction of the trees
section 5
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 59-59b-- DoV and the response of the valar
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
THE RAPE OF THE SILMARILS [see notes for using Annals of Aman [X] for source text in places]
section 6
1-- the lamentation of the valinoreans
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp
section 7
2-6 -- feanor and the valar

section 8
7-12 -- the telling of the death of finwe






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Old 01-22-2001, 02:20 PM   #2
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Re: DoV/RotS: the outline and editing discussions

From your commentary, you appear to be talking about using HoME 10 as the base document. The sections you seem to be referring to are in annals of valinor but the numbers you provide do not match with sections in Annals. Am I misunderstanding something?

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Old 01-22-2001, 02:45 PM   #3
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more confusion

the core of the text is in the 'later quenta silmarillion' the #'s corespond to the sections on pages 282-295, the annals come into as base texts in some sections of RotS play on pages 293 -295 .
lindil

Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 01-23-2001, 11:06 AM   #4
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Pick your sections time [ I think]

I will , to get the ball rolling do section 3 { 58 a-c }

and 1 for saulotus' [as per his request] hw is the Lamentation of the Valinoreans [6] ? a small but interesting section
afterGwaihir, Mithadan and Durelen have your own , feel free to pick 2 [ or 1] as you wish or just pick one of the early 5 to start w/. and pick a later section after completion.
I prob will not be posting [ but maybe a bit of editing to clarify stuff like this and viewing ] on Wed. or Fri. and Sunday [?] as of now so don't be suprised at a slow down from my part .

Any new thoughts on where to place these sections for general viewing ?
At the least we can email them around , but I hope as Saulotus has mentioned thatthere are other potential solutions - this is an area I know nothing about so ...

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Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/24/01 1:19:37 pm
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Old 01-24-2001, 08:07 PM   #5
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Re: Pick your sections time [ I think]

Do we need to be super secretive so as not to attract unwanted attention? Maybe a password to get into a site or something?

I think it would be better if one of you picked a section for me since I don't have all of the books. Since you know which section comes from which book

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Old 01-24-2001, 08:24 PM   #6
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Re: Pick your sections time [ I think]

Thanks a bunch, lindil, I'll take number four, if you don't mind; and easy one for my first piece of work on this project <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

I too, Durelin, do not have all the books; but I have an excellent library nearby, an orderable bookshop -- and the section I've chosen is in the ones I have.

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Old 01-24-2001, 08:54 PM   #7
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Re: Pick your sections time [ I think]

Nevermind, I pretty much have all the texts now that I think of it.<img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 01-25-2001, 04:17 AM   #8
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Re: Pick your sections time [ I think]

So as I understand it, lindil, I have to draw upon HoME texts, the original work and my own knowledge to rewrite the bit of the chapter where Morgoth enlists the help of Ungoliant and smites the two Trees. Correct?

And I've just been struck by a terrible thought. As we all use different writing styjes (I, for instance, like to decorate my sentences quite a bit wheareas some will want to tell it more like it is), and we are all writing different bits, won't our new Sil look rather patchy? (nothing too major, really)

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Old 01-25-2001, 04:28 AM   #9
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editing/writing


Gwaihir: &quot; So as I understand it, lindil, I have to draw upon HoME texts, the
original work and my own knowledge to rewrite the bit of the chapter
where Morgoth enlists the help of Ungoliant and smites the two
Trees. Correct?

And I've just been struck by a terrible thought. As we all use
different writing styjes (I, for instance, like to decorate my
sentences quite a bit wheareas some will want to tell it more like it
is), and we are all writing different bits, won't our new Sil look rather
patchy? (nothing too major, really) &quot;

Lindil responds :In case there are any misconceptions , the goal as so far stated is not to rewrite anything
but to edit or shall we say splice together from amongst the different versions available in HoME and if needed 77 . No original writing .Just editing.

It could well be that we each want to take up the whole or parts and actually rewrite them , but this is an entirely different endeavor and outside the scope of this project.

I hope I was not misconstruing the question.

lindil

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Old 01-25-2001, 04:40 AM   #10
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bracketing

Gwaihir - It comes to mind that you may have missed the sections in &quot;Literary Devices and Such&quot; and &quot;Barrows Rule's of order &quot; regarding exactly how we have agreed to present our sections . As it is no short discussion re: bracketing the texts [ with the different brackets available ,according to the version of HoME /UT/77 used] I would say that the 2 above threads are what could be called required reading.

You will have to meander through a bit of discussion that as you will see will be disregarded soon thereafter but , much will become clear, after these threads are assimilated.

I hope to create an &quot;Introduction to the Silm Project thread that has all the background material needed to jump on but right now it is spread throughout the forum , mostly in the above 2 threads. I would read them in the order of appearance and the n end w/ the DoV [locked ] thread, off the top of my head I would say these contain all the points upon which Mithadan , Saulotus, myself and, more recently Durelen have come to agreement.

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Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 01-25-2001, 07:39 AM   #11
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Re: bracketing

I now have what I need. What sections are available?

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Old 01-25-2001, 09:46 AM   #12
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What is avaliable ?

1 and 2 -open
3 - lindil
4-Gwaihir
5 -open
6 - lindil [wes S.'s]
7-8 -open

lindil

Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 01-25-2001, 09:12 PM   #13
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Re: What is avaliable ?

I am just wondering what happens when you take from two texts and they don't mesh just right, i.e. Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin(UT) and FoG. I am not aware which FoG would be used(are there different forms?), but certainly they won't be pieced together perfectly, so do we put an editorial note in between like CRRT does in UT?

I could do 5 or 7/8 but from which texts should I take?

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Old 01-26-2001, 01:58 AM   #14
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meshing and such

For the benefit of Durelen and Gwaihir and any looking on I will attempt to outline the agreed upon methods and principles which Mithadan ,Saulotus and myself hashed out as Durelen was coming on board -Mithadan will I am sure correct me if I perpetrate a gaff.



Durelen asks: &quot;I am just wondering what happens when you take from two texts and they
don't mesh just right, i.e. Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin(UT) and
FoG. I am not aware which FoG would be used(are there different forms?),
but certainly they won't be pieced together perfectly, so do we put an
editorial note in between like CRRT does in UT?

I think we have agreed upon a few possibilities.

A&gt;&gt;delete it, when in doubt ,leave it out
B&gt;&gt; see if other versions provide text at that point that could be used as linking the old ad new
C&gt;&gt; use an indentation /italicized insert [ as CRRT does w/ the lat in the 77 B&amp;L] when reffering to older tales [such as Narsilion, the lay of Leithian,FoG]

Durelen asks: &quot; I could do 5 or 7/8 but from which texts should I take?
Use the last written version [ X 2nd phase QS ] in this case and then add older details , I suggest working newer to older , to avoid incl. something in BoLT that was expressly contradicted in the later books.

I hope that inconjunction w/ the aforementioned posts of suggestion clear everything up.


I updated the Barrows rules of Order text [ to reflect a bracketingsystem designed for DoV instead of FoG.]
Our guiding principles of editing are rather straight forward.
1.&gt;&gt;&gt; we use as a base text , that which was most recently composed by JRRT [ thus X, QS phase 2 for DoV and in a couple of places in RotS, the annals of Aman also in X]
2.&gt;&gt;&gt; We use JRRt's words from the many editions of the Silm. we do not embellish phrases , create links or any other form of 'Co-Creation&quot; not because the Silm could not be improved greatly by such simple linking phrases, but because we are working w/ a project that will hopefully form the foundation of a large gathering to discuss the canon in a larger setting than we have here. And we hope that the purity of our work [ being devoid of any words other thanJRRt's] will enable to be received in a serious way by the GTIC [see:&quot; abbrev and such&quot; thread]. One change that is allowed is that of [what I think are called] proper nouns . Gnomes to Noldor , tinwelento to thingol and such.
3&gt;&gt;&gt;.A third is that we start w/ the latest text and add older details such as do not conflict w/ the known later intentions of JRRT. Thus .yes we know there was to be an expanded FoG story that would have incorporated in all liklihood the general features of the II FoG [w/ the exception of the mechanical dragon 'tanks'].
But no,Beren who was an Elf in II will be a Man [as all later versions show]
4&gt;&gt;&gt;. we will use the bracketing system [until such time as something better may be devised] and create a simple commentary to be placed at the end of each section/chapter to describe such decisions as we make to depart from the base text.



================================================== ==
BELOW ARE EXCERPTS FROM THE BARROW'S RULES OF ORDER:
================================================== ===
&quot; 3} I propose we pick a text to use as our &quot;base text &quot; [the criteria being whicH text has the most of what we think
we will keep] and # the chapters sequentially for easy reference .
4}
I don't yet know wether we want to use the base text idea [which seems like it will work well as it sounds as if 77 is available to us in it's entirety as per saulotus' instrctions] see below
I am also anticipating that we will run into CRRT's editorializing quite
quickly and this I hope will provide us w/ a model of how to adapt the
style of older texts,esp. IV and V to the tone of JRRT's later X and XI
style which seems to be the basis of whatended up in 77 .
5}
we will also hit the question , I am guessing of wether or not to keep
and use links or more than cosmetic changes that CRRT made . I will
tentatively put forth [ &amp; I expect to hear some feedback on this! ] the
idea that we seriously consider using any links he gives us that do not
create new story, but are stylistic. What do you think on that? Wether
or not to use CRRT's bigger changes deserves a thread of it's own and
happily I don't think we need to cross that bridge yet ,but we will see
what the tale will bring!
======an interlude======
Upon checking through HoME to seewhich books Durelen would want [if she did not have them - see11 below ] , I was looking at X and saw that on p.256 JRRT intended to put ' Of Finwe and Miriel' into DoV. which may have been obvious to others , but was a detail I was not calculating inso this puts a pretty deep wrinkle in my chapter theory and I am now thinking maybe a sectional [i.e. looking for the natural or most convienent divisons of a given chapter ]division of labor is better.

w/ the possible addition of F&amp;M this promises to be one of the coolest chapters in a revised Silm. me thinks.
I am eagerly looking forward to our first group discussion [after we have all read the relevant texts] .

What say ye ? [to the sectional theory]
I now return you to your regularly scheduled programing...
================
6-b***** We could use a system of bracketing that would tell
us which phrase or sentence or word came from what source , e.g.
&lt;Finwe said no&gt;* would indicate-77
{ Finwe said no} would indicate- IV
[Finwe said no] would indicate- V etc.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * (Finwe said no) would idicate - I
Finwe said no would indicate base text- X
these would run throughout our edited copies of the chapters/sections and would tell us [or anyone ] at aglance just where a given line came from.
7- I think this is the main thing missing from your versions Saulotus, a quick * * * * *
and easy way of seeing what and from whence are your changes. I propose putting the corresponding paragraph #'s of the source of each word, phrase , sentence par graph , etc. in the margin this way we would be spared choopping the text up w/ clumsy words and
abbrev. or detailed notes at the end {and instead we can have clumsy
brackets throughout the text <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ] . I am open to other suggestions here,
this just popped into my head and seemed simple and convienent
[compared to the alternatives I could imagine that is].
What say ye?
8
As to debating changes and having a system whereby we hash out our
disaggrements, I suggest that we:
A&gt;&gt;&gt; read the necesarry books in all versions making notes for group discussion
and queries esp making note of where we think the natural divisions fall and which
book should be used as a base text for each section.
B&gt;&gt;&gt; work together on a general outline while establishing our repective sections
and talking over the big bumps we know will be in the road and trying to ensure that
our independent sections will have cohesion and not really be independent at all.
C&gt;&gt;&gt;then submit our drafts of the sections to the group , automatically
soliciting feedback- which we then [ if there is any] hope is unanimously agreed on , if not the ...
D&gt;&gt;&gt; we make suggestons and debate a bit and if this does not resolve it
vote,majority rules -if we have a deadlock due to having an even # of editors we can either:
1&gt;&gt;&gt; give 2 votes to the editor of the particular paragraph [or any size section], or
2&gt;&gt;&gt; choose an 'independent' arbitrator, say Ron, if he is willing.
*************************************I think it is very important to have
some system of this type in place so thatour method of resolution is
communicative and clear and not prolonged or subject*******************
**********&quot;




END QUOTE/EDIT FROM 'BARROWS RULES OF ORDER'

hopefully this clears up any remaining confusion.If not email Mithadan or myself or post it up here.
I hope [after DoV] to put up an intro to the Silmarillion project' thread so that these points [ in all their excruciating detail<img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ] will be clear to all from the outset.
Now I am off to begin my sections 2!!!

I formally propose that we hold a council/ feast upon completion {God willing} of DoV and reorganize our goals and working procedures, as with the addition of Durelen and Gwaihir and the subtraction of Saulotus , a few things have changed.





Lindil is often found on posting on the New Silmarillion Canon Forum at the Barrowdowns discussion board. 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 1/26/01 3:15:56 am
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Old 01-26-2001, 09:03 AM   #15
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Re: meshing and such

You are referring to me as someone who lacks an adam's apple again, lindil.

lindil, you stated that v and x are almost identical even though compiled several years apart. Is the QS in v the same, or were you speaking along another line?

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Old 01-26-2001, 09:42 AM   #16
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Re: meshing and such

Lindil, Durelen is a he, not a she.

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Old 01-26-2001, 11:05 AM   #17
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:/

D:&quot;You are referring to me as someone who lacks an adam's apple again,
lindil.&quot;

Serious apologies , I can assure you I have no futher confusion on that point.
I scanned the above entry and did not see it [although i saw about 2 dozen typo's]
perhaps it is a quote from the original slip, I don't know as I said i cant find it , but when i do it will be smitten.
feel free to put the whole surrounding sentence or 2 in a reply , and I will edit it. again sorry.
As all so delicatlt refrain from mentioning- I am no proofreader <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> .



Durelen: &quot;lindil, you stated that v and x are almost identical even though compiled several years apart&quot;

I did? Not true. IV and V are 'relatively' [i am saying this from memory] similar X is not and contains much [including chapter layout ] that is unique and are the final 2 versions written by JRRT and--- will compose the core of our new DoV .

I,IV,V [and maybe 77] will be used to fill in missing [non-conflicting w/ X phase 2] details and repair any awkward grammar and transitions


Is the QS in v the same, or were you speaking
along another line?

I was probably reffering to reffering to QS in X, as V at this point has needed no special mention [ I will ahve to go back and clarify my post I see.]

lindil

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Old 01-26-2001, 12:25 PM   #18
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Re: :/

I see, I must have been confused on which volume is which. I just need to say that I probably won't be posting to much next week because I have several exams and projects to do. I will try and keep one eye on here though, so I am still looking, and maybe postingjust not as much as before.

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Old 01-27-2001, 07:10 PM   #19
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Re: :/

With this in mind (I've tried to encompass this advice) I've completed a draft of my section (No.Four: the destruction of the Trees. What do you think?

----------------------------------------------------------

It is told that even as Fanor and Fingolfin stood before Manw Telperion came to the time of his waxing, and the silent halls of Valmar were filled with a radiance of brightest silver; but as yet the boughs of Laurelin shone but weakly. And in that very hour Melkor and Ungoliant came hastening over the fields of Valinor, as the shadow of a black cloud upon the wind; and the Unlight of Ungoliant hid them both. And they came before the green mound Ezellohar, and the Unlight rose even to the roots of the trees.
Then Melkor sprang onto the mound; and summoning all his godlike strength seized his black spear and smote the trunk of Laurelin to it's core; and the fiery radiance that sprung suddenly forth would have consumed his raiments of flesh even as it did his spear, had not Ungoliant cast herself down and lapped it thirstily. Then she, setting her black beak to the wound in the bole of the Tree, sucked away it's life and strength until they were drained; and the poison of Death that was in her went into it's tissues and withered them, root, stock, and leaf.

By accursed fortune this deed was not straightaway marked, for Laurelin was now in her time of deepest repose, and her faint light was not missed; but Melkor then took the weapon that remained to him, a knife, and plunged it again and again into the beaticous stock of Telperion. And Ungoliant plying her lips once more to the cracks fed on his life and light. And the Trees died; and Ungoliant still thirsting went to the vats of Kullulin and drank them deeply, and belched forth black vapours as she drank; and swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that Melkor was afraid.

------------------------------------------------

I've tried to combine the parts of BoLT 1: The Theft of Melko and Sil's Darkening of Valinor. Is this version alright or what changes do you suggest?

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Old 01-28-2001, 08:52 PM   #20
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the first draft is in !!!

I am saving it to read a little later tonight , when the kids are asleep. The explanatory note at the end [ which is great as it saves us the work of looking up each version to check for inclusions. Are we likely to see a bracketed version in the near future?]

Re: posting here , we prob. need to be doing this via email , I will check w/ BW.
So if it disappears , that is where it is.

Does everyone have there email links active ?

Great start Gwaihir! I hope to be right behind you w/ section 2 tonight.

May your Eyrie receive you at your journey's end!

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Old 01-28-2001, 11:30 PM   #21
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Re: the first draft is in !!!

Thankyou. But I don't understand what you are saying about the bracketed bits.

There is one thing I am unsure about in my little draft. I haven't decided whether to add the bit about that Noldo who attacks Melko in the Theft of Melko (BoLT), and gets himself stabbed, and his sword taken from him to stab Telperion. lindil, or Durelen, or Saul, what do you think?

As to doing this via email, I think that they'll have to be discussed and amended first. That's why I posted it here. (My email link is active)

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Old 01-29-2001, 06:56 AM   #22
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A reply to sect.4

I vote for leeaving the noldo out. It seems in my mind only to detract from the intensity of the story [and makes the noldo ] not Finwe the first Elda , slain in Valinor. Which is part of the revised prohecy of Mandos [Mirel was the first to die, Finwe the first to be slain].

as to posting them here I am all for it , I know that legal questions were raised [by BW if I recall , so it has to be cleared w/ him first.] I agree though that the emailing option is cumbersome. This is why Saulotus wanted to find aa newsgroup that could be members only to post this work.

Re; the bracket business, It was a system discussed in the long post of this thread of 1/26/01 --2:58am 'Meshing and such&quot;,I have pasted it below.
It's prime purpose is so thst others of the team and those veiwing our work from w/out will be able to see exactly which book a given section/phrase etc. came from . that w/ a few notes at the end should be all we need except in the most complex questions . Obviously these would not need to be there for any edition created for our private reading pleasure . Please note that the base text is not given any brackests ! below is the excerpt


&quot;6-b***** We could use a system of bracketing that would tell
us which phrase or sentence or word came from what source , e.g.
&lt;Finwe said no&gt;* would indicate-77
{ Finwe said no} would indicate- IV
[Finwe said no] would indicate- V etc.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * (Finwe said no) would idicate - I
Finwe said no would indicate base text- X -no brackets.


These would run throughout our edited copies of the chapters/sections and
would tell us [or anyone ] at aglance just where a given line came from.
7- I think this is the main thing missing from your versions Saulotus, a
quick * * * * *
and easy way of seeing what and from whence are your changes. I propose
putting the corresponding paragraph #'s of the source of each word, phrase
, sentence par graph , etc. in the margin this way we would be spared
choopping the text up w/ clumsy words. &quot;
end quote.

I am off to work on #2.


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Old 01-30-2001, 12:51 AM   #23
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Re: A reply to sect.4

Alright, then, I'll give it a go. (I feel like a fool doing this but) [] = Sil, {} = BoLT, and ** = own improvisation. *{}* = improvisation improvised from BoLT, *[]* etc. That is, sorced from Sil, or BoLT, because I've changed the words around a little (obviously) to make them fit. If there are no brackets, BoLT and Sil agree with each other.

------------------------------------

[It is told that even as Fanor and Fingolfin stood before Manw] {Telperion came to the time of his waxing, and the silent halls of Valmar were filled with a radiance of brightest silver; but as yet the boughs of Laurelin shone but weakly.} [And in that very hour Melkor and Ungoliant came hastening over the fields of Valinor, as the shadow of a black cloud upon the wind; and the Unlight of Ungoliant hid them both. And they came before the green mound Ezellohar, and the Unlight rose even to the roots of the trees.]

Then Melkor sprang onto the mound; {and summoning all his godlike strength} [seized his black spear and smote the trunk of Laurelin to it's core;] {and the fiery radiance that sprung suddenly forth would have consumed his raiments of flesh even as it did his spear, had not Ungoliant cast herself down and lapped it thirstily.} Then she, setting her black beak to the wound in the bole of the Tree, sucked away it's life and strength until they were drained; [and the poison of Death that was in her went into it's tissues and withered them, root, stock, and leaf.]

{By accursed fortune this deed was not straightaway marked, for Laurelin was now in her time of deepest repose, and her faint light was not missed;} *{but Melkor then took the weapon that remained to him, a knife, and plunged it again and again into the beaticous stock of Telperion.}* And Ungoliant plying her lips once more to the cracks fed on his life and light. And the Trees died; [and Ungoliant still thirsting went to the vats of Kullulin and drank them deeply, and belched forth black vapours as she drank; and swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that Melkor was afraid.]

----------------------------------------------------------

How's that?


(Yes, I agree with you on the subject of the Noldo that attacked Melko now that you've said that. )

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Old 02-06-2001, 06:34 AM   #24
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Re: the preliminary draft of sect.2

Okay, this is much too technical for me but I made it all the way here lindil!!! Now, try and frequent the other forums as much as you obviously hang out here. We'd love to be honoured by your presence more often! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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Old 02-06-2001, 09:42 AM   #25
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lindil at large

as for other forums I am at the books far more than my time allows[e.g. should all posts be polls, how was rivendell defended, and I even posted a query yesterday[?] re: Faramir , Aragornn and denethor which has not proved worthy of much response] and I peep in at the announcement board semi-regularly. This is all I can manage. I did note that my sole post in Movies has created a monster [pun intended] .
I am unworthily honoured by your request nonetheless.
btw much of these discussions do get hyper technical which I am not fond of in and of itself. It does seem a prerequisite however to get to the bottom [or as close aspossible] to some of the more abtruse aspects of Middle -earth in general and the Silm [and canon] in particular. So I endure what I must! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

lindil

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Old 02-11-2001, 09:42 PM   #26
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Re: Oujtside

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> frankly being puzzled that you alluded to using some creative writing to smooth things out , which I hoped had been made clear by M,D, and I was outside of the parameters of what were attempting . <hr></blockquote>

Well, it wasn't much, was it? All I did was say that Morgoth used his knife on Telperion, not the Noldo's sword. And we're cutting out the Noldo. So I'd say that that is probably the best choice.

Great, lindil! Let's see a bracketed version from you too. How's mine?

(btw please see the <a href="http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=000000thebarro wdownsthebarrowdowns</a> for an explanation to my absence recently.)

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Old 02-12-2001, 09:08 AM   #27
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Re: Oujtside

Apologies to all. I have not participated much and have not read, much less critiqued anyone's segments. I have undertaken to fulfill another commitment made to the Downs. Tales From Tol Eressea II will be done this week! It does draw on some HoME and some little known materials.

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Old 02-14-2001, 02:20 AM   #28
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brackets and abscences

I have been incommunicado myself for nearly a week w/ Ez board woes of the first magnitude . I set up a website for a few friends from High-School and created another identity . this somehow scrambled 'lindil' and attempts to post w/ a new name and email were fruitless. I will try and get my more or less final version of section 2 up tonight .

re: brackets I posted a couple of things in one of the more recent Silm threads [can't remember the thread name offhand but it is one of the ffew from w/in the last 2 weeks, so please check it
out as I have had to concede problems w/ them that I did not originally notice. thus i have been noting changes from one text to another in [parentheses].

It is getting late so if I am to get my text up tonight I better run. The only real change is using the Annals from X for the first 2 paragraphs instead instead of the X later Silm.

re: folks being absent and such. I think if we all just keep each other posted all will be fine. There clearly can be no rushing of this project and it will build steam and ebb and flow in it's own time.
A quick note that may help stream line the process [if you havn't already figured out a better way]

1] pick your base text [in this case X annals or XSilm last phase as they are thefinal versions JRRT wrote] then compare w/ each succeding version in reverse chronilogical order, V,IV, I and finish w/ 77 . Except for putting the bits from Lost Tales in first and not looking at the Xannals of Valinor , this was the form I followed and it went quickly when I would actually do it<img src=wink.gif ALT="">


lindil

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 2/14/01 3:34:29 am
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Old 02-14-2001, 02:26 AM   #29
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DoV section 2 [final draft I hope]

from the annals of [X]

[58/a] $109 Now it was a time of festival, as Melkor well knew.
For though all tides and seasons were at the will of the Valar,
and there was in Valinor no winter of death, nonetheless the
gods dwelt then in the kingdom of Arda, and that was but
a small realm in the halls of Ea, whose life is Time, which flows
ever from the first note to the last chord of Eru. And it was then
the pleasure of the Valar (as is told in the Ainulindale) to clothe
themselves in the forms of the Children of Iluvatar; and they ate
and they drank and gathered the fruits of Yavanna, and drew
strength from the Earth which under Eru they ha J made.
$110 Therefore Yavanna set times for the flowering and the
ripening of all growing things: upspringing, blooming, and
seed-time. And at each first gathering of fruits Manwe made a
high-tide for the praising of Eru, and all the folk of Valinor
poured forth their joy in music and song. Such now was the
hour; but Manwe, hoping that indeed the shadow of Melkor
was removed from the land, and fearing no worse than maybe a
new war with Utumno and a new victory to end all, had decreed
that this feast should be more glorious than any that had been
held since the coming of the Eldar. He designed moreover to
heal the evil that had arisen among the Noldor, and they all
were bidden, therefore, to come to him and mingle with the
Maiar in his halls upon Taniquetil, and there put aside all the
griefs that lay between their princes and forget utterly the lies of
their Enemy.



$58 Aa [from BoLT 1]
The Valar and Eldar made ready to celebrate it most gloriously.
Long processions, there were of the Elves, dancing
and singing, that wound from Tirion to Valimar's gates. A road
had been laid against this festival from the westward gate of
Tirion even to the turrets of the mighty arch which opened in
the walls of Valimar northward towards the Trees. Of white
marble it was and many a gentle stream flowing from the far
mountains crossed its path. Here it would leap into slender
bridges marvellously fenced with delicate balustrades that
shone like pearls; scarcely did these clear the water, so that
lilies of great beauty growing upon the streams
that fared gently in the plain, thrust their wide blossoms
about its borders and iris marched along its flanks; for by
cunning. were made to flow
from stream to stream, clearest water bordering that whole long way with
the cool noise of rippling water. At places mighty trees grew
on either side, or at places the road would open to a glade
and fountains spring high into the air .
Now came the Vanyar led by the white-robed people of Ingwe,
and the throbbing of their congregated harps beat the
air most sweetly; and after them went the Noldor,
but the music that their
viols and instruments awoke was now more sweetly sad than
ever before.
Then was all that host marshalled before the gate of Val-
mar, and at the word and sign from Ingwe as one voice they
burst in unison into the Song of Light. This had Salmar, ,
who made the conches of Ulmo[V] ,
written and taught them, and it told of the longing of the Elves
for light, of their dread journey through the dark world led
by the desire of the Two Trees, and sang of their utmost joy
beholding the faces of the Valar and their renewed desire
once more to enter Valimar and tread the blessed
courts. Then did the gates of Valmar open and Eonwe bid
them enter, and all that bright company passed through.
There Varda standing amid all the Valar made them welcome,
and feasts there were in all the great halls thereafter.

$58b [see AAm $111]** * *
Now their was custom to robe themselves
all in white and blue and ascend to the heights of Taniquetil,
and there would Manwe speak to them as he thought fit of
the Music of the Ainur and the glory of Iluvatar, and of things
to be and that had been. [from X laterSilm II ] There the Vanyar,
the Noldor of Tirion, and the Maiar were gathered
together, and the Valar were arrayed in their beauty and
majesty; and they sang before Manwe and Varda in the halls of
Taniquetil, or played and danced upon the green slopes of the
Mountain that looked west to the Trees, and all the mountains echo with
their speech. In that day the streets
of Valimar were empty and still , and the stairs of Tirion were silent, and
all the land lay sleeping in peace, but the roof of the world and the
slope of Taniquetil shine with the gleaming raiment of the
Valar and Eldar. Only the Teleri beyond the
mountains still sang upon the shores of the Sea; for they recked
little of seasons or times, and gave no thought to the cares of the
King of Arda, or to the shadow that had fallen upon Valinor;
for it had not touched them, as yet.


$58c [see AAm $112] One thing only marred the hope of
Manwe. Feanor came indeed, for he read the message of Manwe
as a command; but Finwe would not come and remained in
Formenos, and with him were the sons of Feanor. For said
Finwe: 'While the ban lasts upon Feanor, my son, that he may
not go to Tuna, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my
people.' And Feanor did not come in raiment of festival, and he
wore no ornament, neither silver nor gold nor any gem; and he
denied the sight of the Silmarils to the Valar and the Eldar, and
left them in Formenos, locked in a chamber of iron.
Nonetheless he met Fingolfin before the throne of Manwe,
and was reconciled in word. For Fingolfin held forth his hand,
saying: 'As I promised, I do now. I release thee, and remember
no grievance.'
Then Feanor took his hand in silence; but Fingolfin said:
'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart I will be. Thou shalt
lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us!'
'I hear thee,' said Feanor. 'So be it!' But they did not know
then the full meaning that their words would bear.


Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 2/14/01 3:41:50 am
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Old 02-14-2001, 09:33 PM   #30
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Re: New thread

All these drafts should be put somewhere, I agree. I suppose we could start a new thread where they are all posted.
lindil or someone else could then copy-and-paste the drafts into word and fit them all together. I'd be glad to take that job; although lindil may want to alocate someone else.

I'm reading up all the books at the moment, at least as much as I can. so I'll be able to write some more soon.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000022>Gwaihir the Windlord</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 2/15/01 10:40:23 pm
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Old 02-16-2001, 02:48 PM   #31
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I think...

If you want a clean slate for posting the sections go ahead ,although I would be inclined to wait till all of Darkening of Valinor/Rpe of the silmarills is done.
A further note. In what I think is the last version of the destruction of the 2 Trees [Morgoth's Ring- later Silm, phase 2] Morgoth is not even present at the destruction of the Trees. JRRT has him off knocking over the Council chairs of the Valar.

[2/21 edit below]
Durelen, Mithadan ; what do you say to a new thread to put the texts in ? Gwaihir thinks it will be of use so, I am fine w/ it.

lindil


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 2/21/01 3:25:28 am
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Old 02-20-2001, 09:32 PM   #32
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Re: Clean Slate

Why wait? At the moment we're cruising along very well. I think we should open that thread right away. It's not really a 'clean slate', just somewhere where the drafts can be seen clearly to download them.

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Old 02-21-2001, 12:19 PM   #33
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???


Durelen, Mithadan ; what do you say to a new thread to put the
texts in ? Gwaihir thinks it will be of use so, I am fine w/ it.

Gwaihir: Have been reading some of the textual notes of M's ring lately and it becmes ever clearer to me that the annals and the last phase [II] of he Quenta therein represent the last drafts of JRRT of the Silm [in valinor] and that using 77 as base text is def. inferior in terms of using the last version as a foundation for earlier details omitted for a variety of reasons.

re: the use of the occasional word that is not in the texts or a linking phrase or sentence; in the original conception of the project this was not an option we wanted to stick to JRRT's words of one edition or another ,but w/ the express intent of it being entirely his words, the only possible [and yet to be decided] exceptions being the use of 77 ,wherein CRT may have had a hand .This was to forestall any criticism that we were rewriting the Silm. and to let the words be entirely JRRT's - granted this imposes difficulties and may even lead to the exclusion of certain texts - but so be it. That was the original agreement with M/S/and myself we have since added yourself and D and lost S.


I am still in favor of the original plan but perhaps we need a consensus building thread or some such?

Mithadan and Durelen : perhaps one of you would like to tackle the v.small 1st section [ see earlier in the thread for the breakdowns] it is all of a paragraph or 2.

I will be starting great lent this sunday which lasts for seven weeks - I will be totally offline on the weekdays ,but hope to post regularly on the w/ends.

So maybe we can get any reorganizing done oin the next few days.

lindil


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Old 02-21-2001, 12:30 PM   #34
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Re: ???

OK, I'll take section 1, whatever that is. I'll look it up.

Sorry about my recent lack of participation. When work allowed me to come up from air, I tackled my much earlier Tales commitment first (I feel like JRRT, whose letters constantly apologize for blown deadlines). Just a warning, there are at least three more &quot;Chapters&quot; of the current Tales installment in the works (feel free to speculate about: (1) what Maglor did for two Ages in Middle Earth; and (2) why he was finally pardoned by the Valar. I have some ideas but could use inspiration, particularly as to the second issue.

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Old 02-21-2001, 09:39 PM   #35
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Re: ????

I'm not too sure about the passage from Morgoth' Ring. It may be the later creation; but it is really quite a large change from the orthodox version. Also it is rather less valid, in my opinion. The whole thing would fit better if we stuck with the current one.

I'm sorry I ever said nything about improvising. I've caused quite a stir. Leave it as it is (my draft); I really combined two different points from the two texts I used in the same sentance (and made it more interesting in the proccess.
In HoME, Melkor, his sword having bn desroyed when he slew Laurelin, was going to attack Telperion with his knife. A Noldo (a bit of an anti-socialite who was not at the feast upon Taniquetil) saw this and attempted to attack Melkor with his sword; Ungoliant traps him an Melkor uses the knife on him instead. Taking the sword he used that to tab Telperion.
It was become clear that the Noldo must be left out; he takes the position from Finwe as to being the first Elf slain in Valinor. So instead of the sword of the Noldo, I've written that Melkor used his knife on Telperion. Sounds alright to me; I haven't intoduced anything new.

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Old 02-21-2001, 10:43 PM   #36
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Re: ????

Hmm, sounds ok, I guess. And I also guess I could tackle a piece after midterms.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>
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Old 03-10-2001, 07:00 PM   #37
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Hey folks how about we check in ...

briefly and state our goals for the next week?
Even if it something Ultra-modest like paste my basetext onto the thread?

I hereby publicaly state that I will begin work [God and wife willing] on my next section tonight [will post base text and edit as able].
What I really wantto do though is do Fallof Gondolin, anyone going to be miffed if I give it a go on the side as a non-official non-group solo-effort?
After I finish my DoV obligations of course<img src=wink.gif ALT="">


Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-12-2001, 09:34 PM   #38
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Re: Hey folks how about we check in ...

Sure, go ahead.

Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A>
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Old 03-16-2001, 01:59 AM   #39
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DoV sections 1-2 {4 0f 8}

Well, it seems as if letting the final text of the silm of this section stand.
this is from X LQ2 [that looks like something out of the dead sea scrolls!]
but in fact is CRT's abrv. for 'Later Quenta {silmarillion] phase 2' . It contains several new elements which hearken back to the BoLT version. for CRT's commentary see p.289 Morgoth's Ring.

Note that oddly enough JRRT's final version is much longer than CRT's edit of The Silmarilion odd since he had recourse to the texts of X as far as I have been able to tell. He seems to have favored the Lost Road style more and felt it {being more compressed} ,meshed well w/ the sections that were not elaborated on as much as our current selection.

compare w/ the &amp;&amp; on page 73,74to the end of the 3rd para. The X version is roughly 2x as long.




$55 Now the Valar were sitting in council before the gates
of Valmar, fearing the lengthening of the shadows, when the
messengers came from Finwe. At once Orome and Tulkas
sprang up, but even as they set out in pursuit other messengers
brought tidings from Eldanor. Melkor had fled through the
Kalakiryan, and from the hill of Tuna the Elves had seen him
pass in wrath as a thunder-cloud. 'Then,' said they, 'he turned
northward, and our kinsfolk in Alqualonde report that his
Shadow went by their haven towards Araman.'
Thus Melkor departed from Valinor, and for a while the Two
Trees shone again unshadowed and the land was filled with
light; yet as a cloud far off that looms ever higher, borne upon a
slow cold wind, a doubt now marred the joy of all the dwellers
in Aman, dreading they knew not what evil that yet might come.
$55a When Manwe heard of the ways that Melkor had
taken, it seemed plain to him that Melkor purposed to escape to
his old strongholds in the North of Middle-earth, as was indeed
his most likely course. Though there was little hope in this,
Orome and Tulkas with many of their folk went with all speed
northward, seeking to overtake him if they might; but they
found no trace or rumour of him beyond the shores of the
Teleri, and in the unpeopled wastes that draw near to the Ice
they could hear no tidings even from the birds. Therefore at
length they returned, but the watch was redoubled along all the
northern fences of Aman.
$55b This indeed Melkor had expected; but he had other
things to do before he would return to Middle-earth, and ere the
pursuit set out, indeed ere the messengers came to Valmar, he
had turned back and in great secrecy passed away far to the

South. For Melkor was yet as one of the Valar, and he could still
(though with pain) change his form, or walk unclad, as could
his brethren; though that power he was soon to lose for ever.
$55c Thus unseen he came at last to the region that once
was called Avathar,* beneath the eastern feet of the Pelori; a
narrow land it had become, eaten away by the Sea, and was
long forsaken. There the shadows were deepest and thickest in
the world. In Avathar, secret and unknown save to Melkor,
dwelt Ungoliante, and she had taken spider's form, and was a
weaver of dark webs. It is not known whence she came, though
among the Eldar it was said that in ages long before she had
descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor
first looked down in envy upon the light in the kingdom of
Manwe. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be
mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her
emptiness. To the South she had fled, and so had escaped the
assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Orome, for their
vigilance had ever been to the North, and the South was long
unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed
Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it.
$55d In a ravine she lived and wove her black webs in a
cleft of the mountains. All light she sucked up and spun it forth
in dark nets of gloom. But now she was famished, and in great
torment; for all living things had fled far away, and her own
webs shut out from her all light that could come to her dwelling,
whether through passes in the walls of Aman, or from the
heavens above. Yet she had no longer the strength or will to
depart.
$56 Now Melkor sought for her, and he put on again the
form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord,
tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after. And when
Ungoliante saw him coming she was afraid, knowing his hatred
for all who tried to escape from him. She shrank into her
deepest lair, and tried to shroud herself in new shadow; but
such darkness as in her famine she could weave was no defence
against the eyes of Melkor, Lord of Utumno and Angband.
$56a 'Come forth!' he said. 'Thrice fool: to leave me first, to
dwell here languishing within reach of feasts untold, and now to
shun me, Giver of Gifts, thy only hope! Come forth and see! I
have brought thee an earnest of greater bounty to follow.' But

(* [footnote to the text] The Shadows (in ancient Quenya).)

Ungoliante made no answer, and retreated deeper into the
cloven rock. Then Melkor was angered, for he was in haste,
having reckoned his times to a nicety. 'Come out!' he cried. 'I
have need of thee and will not be denied. Either thou wilt serve
me, or I will bury thee here and under black stone thou shalt
wither into naught.' Then suddenly he held up in his hands two
shining gems. They were green, and in that lightless place they
reflected the dreadful light of his eyes, as if some ravening beast
had come hunting there. Thus the great Thief set his lure for the
lesser.
$56b Slowly Ungoliante came forth; but as she drew near
Melkor withheld the lure. 'Nay, nay,' he said. 'I do not bring
thee these Elvish sweets in love or in pity; they are to strengthen
thee, when thou hast agreed to do my bidding.' 'What is your
bidding, Master?' she said, and her eyes gloated upon the gems.
$56c There in the black shadows, beyond the sight even of
Manwe in his highest halls, Melkor with Ungoliante plotted his
revenge. But when Ungoliante understood his purpose, she was
torn between great lust and great fear. She would not dare the
perils of Aman, or the power of the dreadful Lords, without a
great reward; for she feared the eyes of Manwe and Varda more
even than the wrath of Melkor. Therefore Melkor said to her:
'Do as I bid, and if thou art still hungry when we meet again,
then, I vow, I will give to thee whatsoever thy lust may demand.
Yea, with both hands!' Lightly he made this vow (as he ever
did), thinking little of its fulfilment, and he laughed in his heart;
for if she achieved his design, he would have no need, he
thought, to appease her, or any one else in Arda, great or small.
$56d 'Come then!' he said. 'Here is the earnest!' And he
delivered the gems to her, not only the first two but many others
that he had stolen in Valinor. Then swiftly Ungoliante began to
grow again and to find new strength. A cloak of darkness she
wove about herself: an unlight, in which things seemed to be no
more, and which eyes could not pierce, for it was void. Then
slowly she wrought her webs: rope by rope from cleft to cleft,
from jutting rock to pinnacle of stone, ever climbing upwards,
crawling and clinging, until at last she achieved the very summit
of Mount Hyarmentir, the highest mountain in that region of
the world, far south of great Taniquetil. There the Valar were
not vigilant; for west of the Pelori was an empty land in
twilight, until northward one came to the tall fences of the
woods of Orome; and eastward the mountains looked out, save

for forgotten Avathar, only upon the dim waters of the pathless
Sea.
$57 But now upon the mountain-top dark Ungoliante lay.
For a while she rested, and with eyes faint from labour she saw
the glimmer of the stars in the dome of Varda and the radiance
of Valmar far away. Slowly her eyes wakened and took fire, and
her lust increased until it overcame her fear. She began in stealth
to creep down into the Blessed Realm.
$57a Still in the dark depths Melkor stood, gnawing his
mind, between evil hope and doubt; but when he had stood,
revolving his chances, as long as his urgency allowed, he turned
away and went down to the shore. There he cursed the Sea,
saying: 'Slime of Ulmo! I will conquer thee yet, shrivel thee to a
stinking ooze. Yea, ere long Ulmo and Osse shall wither, and
Uinen crawl as a mud-worm at my feet!' With that suddenly he
passed from Avathar and went to do his will.





Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-20-2001, 10:54 PM   #40
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Re: DoV sections 1-2 {4 0f 8}

Interesting.

http://www.xenite.org/Xenite.Org: Science Fiction and Fantasy</a>
http://www.xenite.org/faqs/lotr_movie/Lord of the Rings Movie news</a>
http://www.xenite.org/xor/home.shtml1500+ Hercules/Xena Links</a>
http://www.xenite.org/books/visualiz...dle-earth.htmlVisualizing Middle-earth, a book on Tolkien</a>
http://www.xenite.org/special_events/vicky_shaffer.htmlVicky Shaffer: Monster or mother? Is Brianna in any danger?</a>
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