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Old 02-22-2001, 12:09 AM   #41
lindil
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not really outline...

It is true that this latest version has only a few modifications from it's predecessor, but I hope that all would read the notes that preface the outline.

Quite a few points are made, among them that this is not a group sanctioned outline -just my own thoughts on the matter. What I would do if left entirely to my own devices. I put it up/update it periodically for a few reasons:
1> It is a convienent place to put down ideas and oddd bits of ideas re: the canon as I come across them or as they are suggested.
2> I hope it stimulates thought and the occasional reply.
3> Gives an idea of what could go into one version of a New Silmarillion/Translations from the Elvish.
4> Let's people know my particular take on things at any given time.
5> With this 'outline' someone could by marking the relevant passages in their UT/ HoME /77 more or less read through alot of the new Silm themselves w/out all the fuss of scanning or typing or whatever.

Durelen , not sure what you mean by ' not really' except maybe that it is not a classical 'outline such as :
I piupwnpwjnp
* * * * A piruhqpiruhq
* * * * Bpwoierjpqoirqpoeigqper
* * * * * * * * 1 poiupqp
* * * * * * * * 2 wierupf
II iupwnpwjnp
* * * * A hqpiruhq
* * * * B ierjpqoirqpoeigqper
* * * * * * * * 1 poiupqp
* * * * * * * * 2 erupf

or some such.

As for the round earth - Mithadan , Saulotus and I began wiyh the agreement [just as you were coming on board] that we would do a flat -earth and a round -earth versions of our drafts. as testers - not as "canon' there was to be no decision yet. saulotus was the point man for the MT/round world version. Since his departure, Mithadan has expressed interest in still doing MT drafts - even though [if I understand him aright] he is not completely sold on the idea.

My own veiw is that the a MT version will more than likely wreak havoc w/ the integrity of the stories, w/out resorting to serious fan-fictionalizing. I am all for encouraging anyone who wants to go that route , and I think there is room for a 1/2 dozen or so different versions of the Silm ,and the MT one has a high claim to legitimacy in my book. It is not my choice ,though on which one I would like to see finished first.
I just don't feel that keen on doing the immense amount of work it would take to eliminate so much of the tales that I am already accomadated to. I am more interested in what can be added ,that fits in w/ the general pre-MT conception than reducing to fit a difficult abstract ideal. Just my opinion - the groups last vote on it was that we would do both versions in our 3 drafts and then seek greater input and participation. [which may or may not lead to a choice to do a MT Silm].

[please note that the group reffered to here is not the same as the current Silmarillion project group and there is no current MT version of the Project due to voluntary staffing cuts and typical funding shortfalls -lindil oct 2002]

I hope this clarifies things - I have also renamed the title of the thread -eliminating 'proposal' from it.

lindil

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 2/22/01 11:07:34 am


[ October 20, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 02-22-2001, 01:25 PM   #42
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Re: not really outline...

You do understand me aright. I like many of the MT concepts and believe that JRRT wanted to effect some or all of the changes. My difficulty is that we have no guide as to what changes would have been made and ahich may have been rejected. Also, MT versions would require significant &quot;creative writing&quot; as MT is less Silmarillion text than it is a group of ideas or outlines. While I have no compunction against creative writing <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> I am reluctant to try to pass such off as &quot;canon&quot;.

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Old 02-26-2001, 09:37 PM   #43
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Re: Creative Writing

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> While I have no compunction against creative writing <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> I am reluctant to try to pass such off as &quot;canon&quot;. <hr></blockquote>

Maybe, but we can always re-write parts of it afterwards. For now, go on, have some fun, and see what happens. Creative writing might be alright anyway, as long as we don't change anything and don't use it too much.

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Old 02-26-2001, 10:34 PM   #44
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Re: Creative Writing

I know this might be difficult to hear, but somebody has to break the news to you poor souls. &lt;sigh&gt; Here it is...The Silmarillion has already been written. LOL!! Sorry, guys!

-rêd

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"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>
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Old 02-27-2001, 07:59 AM   #45
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Re: Creative Writing

What are you doing down here Red? And don't you go about burstin' our bubble now!

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Old 03-01-2001, 07:16 AM   #46
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creative writing

OK - I know I am not supposed to be posting till Sat. but I will rest easier , I hope having said my bit.

Oh and by the way Red - the Silmarillion hasn't just been written -it has been written about 6 - 10 times! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Back to business.

Gwaihir, I propose [as 1 member of the project to another] as a solution to the creative writing issue - that you make 2 [or more ] versions of your sections ,[or anything you want to put your hand to] the one you post here could [I would say should] be the one that has only JRRT's words from Silm, UT and HoME. THe other version[s] , can be posted here [in their own thread or elsewhere as Gwaihir's Silm or whatever you like.

I apologize for belaboring this point , but I think Mithadan will agree, when Saulotus ,sent his drafts around and he and Mithadan and I began this,the principle of no additions to JRRT's work one of the few things we were all crystal clear on.
As a ray of hope let me out line the posible outcomes of our work .Which if agreed upon by the group allow at a future date full scope for your creative urges.
I will attach it to my outline at some point.


the following is a rough outline of possible outcomes which could flow from a new canon of the Silmarillion

1&gt; We [those of us at the Silm project here at the B'downs] work on drafts and outlines of the Silm here, doing enough work tobe able to show the flavor and vision of the project.
2&gt; we send it or notice of it far and wide over the internet [legally iffy I know - Mithadan any professional advice ?] possibly w/ anonymous safeguards.
3&gt;A larger group that can work faster than 2 sections of a chapter per season forms <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> and spends an indefinite amount of time hashing out an insanely large # of details, and then begins on one or several fronts:
I. Non-MT- Flat World Version

A.This as I am hypothesizing would have no non published words/ideas/phrases/sentences /etc.
B. One using Creative Writing [or inspired forgery] as CRT did to attempt to fill out in a tolkienesque way the gaps inthe story esp. in the chapterson Turin,Gondolin and the Ruin Doriath
C. the resultant commitee can also be arbiter for 'official-unathorized Fan- fiction'. Meaning since there is no [as yet] Lucas Books wing of the Tolkien estate overseeingthe codification and further creation of writings of ME; we create an underground one that by shear #'s ,quality of work [I hope] and warmth of community [I really hope] , becomes an established fact.Maybe an official one prob not. But a functional and organized one at least.This fan-fiction would all have to be integrated both w/ the Canon of LotR/hobbit/RGEO and co. and the 'Canon' of the NewSilm. and most importantly w/ each of the other stories.

II.MT- Round World Version
repeat as above w/
A. being the 'drafts' of JRRT of an MT version and final text [mostly from I. above as it is adaptable].
B. as above , but far more abundantly.

III. Fan fiction -'authorized' by &quot; the Commitee for the Expansion of Middle-Earth&quot;
or some such

So hopefully by spelling out this pipedream [ I have alluded to it before - but never laid it out], I give a clear picture of my personal view of the posibilities of :
A - this project
B - my thoughts on the scope and place of and for creative writing
C - the problems w/ it being introduced at this phase
D - a vision of integrated fan -fiction

<img src=smile.gif ALT="">


Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-01-2001, 09:40 PM   #47
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Re: Threads

Ach, I don't know. My current version looks alright to me. But if you want me to, lindil, I'll write another one for you.

My idea of the project has always been to stick the various scattered bits of writing spread over many books into one. Use of a touch of creative writing will be unavoidable.
Maybe, if, in a few years (or decades) we can finish this canon, then I think we couild publish it with CRT's permission. Many of us will be greybeards by then, I suppose <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> , but we should show this work to someone.

Once I get my home internet running again, I'll be a lot more involved in the project (and the barrow-downs in general, too <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ). Like you I've been greatly restricting my posts to this forum. I can't afford to spend time anywhere else here <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> .

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Old 03-04-2001, 08:16 AM   #48
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again ?

GtW:&quot;My idea of the project has always been to stick the various scattered
bits of writing spread over many books into one.&quot;
L: exactly - but according to coherent and logical and aestheic principles, not , &quot;I like this and I like that...&quot;
In brief the principles this was founded on are
1&gt; discern and use final intent of JRRT as a base when this will not disrupt the whole legendarium [ i.e. MT - which would get seperate draft treatment due to this fact].
a) so for the Silm this means by default we use the X &amp; XI versions of the stories as the base , whenever possible and then...
b) use the details that 1} are not likely to have been deleted by JRRT himself 2} prb. would have been incorporated [an example is the 144 original elves in the final version of the awakening by cuivenen]
3} use only details that are non-conflicting [ such as came up in w/ the noldo whom Morgoth killed in V or IV ithink].

Now that is how I interpret things. But in all frankness, you and I are the only ones at this{ M and Dhave been silent re: this debate and other things, I say this not to shame them , as I am sure that they are as busy and involved in the site as a whole, and other more essential aspects of life and devote as much time to this as they can} for the time being - and I am not going to tell you to write this or re-write that. I will just point out the principles we started with and try and explain why I think they are still valid and in most cases essential.
Especially if as you say <blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot; Maybe, if, in a few years (or decades) we can finish this canon, then
I think we couild publish it with CRT's permission. <hr></blockquote>
As far fetched as that might seem and be, I would like to see this work progress in such a way that CRT would look at it and say ,&quot;Those boys they did a crack up job, why not put it out?&quot;

GtW:&quot; Use of a touch of creative writing will be unavoidable.&quot;
At this stage I disagree - I had to resort to some twisting and turning to follow the guidelines of my section as re: the inclusionof the procession of the Noldor and Vanyar's to the feast, but I was able to do it in a satisfactory way [I think].

In the baldest terms -Keeping to JRRT's words exsclusively [for this version at least] will be the only thing that gives this project a chance at being anything more than an underground curiousity. Not that grand schemes such as my last post are my ultimate goal - they are not , but they are possible by by-products if you will from going about this in a way that can generate respect for our handling of the Silm.
GtW:&quot; Many of us will be
greybeards by then, I suppose , but we should show this work to
someone.&quot;

LOL prob true .
but if we want CRT to see it we better hurry up - he is no spring chicken by any accounts.
As the project has all but floundered for the time [w/ Durelen understandably focused on College - you would be too if you lived in W.Va <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ] and Mithadan up to his neck in work,family, the new B'downs projects and Tales from TolErresea - it seems like you and I are it for the time being so I will throw out an idea I have been kicking around for a while in my head.This would be in the manner of submitting a novel or any book for publication.


Let's create a folio to send to CRT of the following:
[feel free if the idea gets you G. to suggest modifications]
1 A detailed outline [such as the one I update periodically but fleshed out in a serious way - I will actually try and start on this soon].

2 an outline of our working procedures

3 Drafts of : The Ainulindale, Valaquenta [?],DoV[w/ all sub-chapters], the Hurin /Turin saga , 'Of Tuor and his coming to/the Fall of Gondolin', the Ruinof Doriath.

these are some of the hardest bits and if we do them right we will [ I think ] have made as good a case as possible, and if against the odds we get a green light , we could I imagine gather quite a collection of folks to aid in the rest of it.

well there you have it. more grandiose ideas to rest upon our tiny foundation.<img src=smile.gif ALT="">


lindil


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Old 03-04-2001, 03:44 PM   #49
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Re: again?

'but if we want CRT to see it we better hurry up - he is no spring chicken by any accounts.'

(LOL) True, true. Another reason why that idea of yours, just stated, is very attractive. Well done.

I think that we should aim at that for the time being. First we'll have to define what we're doing <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> ; we could perhaps even write to CRT for his advice. Maybe. If it comes to that.

Then send that definition along with the 'folio'. A highly commmandable idea, lindil.


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Old 03-05-2001, 04:16 AM   #50
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Unofficial Outline 5.0

HTML Comments are not allowed

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 3/5/01 5:35:11 am
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Old 03-05-2001, 07:47 AM   #51
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Re: Unofficial Outline 5.0

Watch out for those illegal HTML comments Lindil!

Re: debate. I have to defer to Lindil. Were it not for him, this &quot;project&quot; would have drowned months ago.

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Old 03-06-2001, 09:34 PM   #52
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Re: HTML???????

I've become familiar with HTML through some site I found at http://www.google.comwww.google.com</a>. Try it. Type in HTML editing or something. It works.

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Old 03-06-2001, 10:31 PM   #53
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Re: HTML???????

Spring Break is coming up soon!! and you all know what that means; no not the beach, partying, sleepy with many anonymous people drinking until I puke up my stomach wall lining, and doing drugs to expand my mind. Som of those I wish, but alas, no money. Anyway, I will have time to start getting into Silm stuff again. O boy.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>
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Old 03-08-2001, 09:34 PM   #54
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Re: An unofficial Silmarillion outline

And which of those exactly would you like to do, D? <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

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Old 03-27-2001, 10:58 AM   #55
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5.4b Outline

A Few preliminary Notes removed to after the outline.

here is Lindil's 'OLD STYLE' SILMARILLION outline as it
stands now:



================================



<center> <u> TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ELVISH vol. I-III</u>
===

Volume I
being the Tales of the Creation and the coming of the Eldar and rebellion of the Noldor in Valinor:


AINULINDALE/VALAQUNTA

-----------
QUENTA SILMARILLION pt1
bethe base texts for which are the Annals of Aman and the LQ2 of Morgoth's Ring X

******
1 Of VALINOR AND THE TWO TREES /OF THE BEGINING
DAYS


2 OF AULE AND YAVANNA

3 OF THE COMING OF THE ELVES
.. add parts of 'Quendi andEldar' re : the '144' [XI]

4 OF THINGOL AND MELIAN

5 OF ELDAMAR AND THE PRINCES OFTHE ELDALIE add from the Shibboleth of Feanor [XII]

6 {OF THE SILMARILS}THE DARKENING OF VALINOR
[the subchapter division is from X]

6a + FINWE AND MIRIEL
[w/possible selections from Laws&amp;Customs...' [HoME X]add from the Shibboleth of Feanor [XII]

6b +OF FEANOR AND THE UNCHAINING OF ME


6c + OF THE SILMARILS AND THE UNREST OF
THE NOLDOR

add from'Shibboleth of Feanor' ?[HoME 12]

6d + OF THE DARKENING OF VALINOR
add from [HoME 1] of the festival of valinor

6e +OF THE RAPE OF THE SILMARILLS

6f +OF THE THIEVES ' QUARREL

7 OF THE FLIGHT OF THE NOLDOR
add from'Shibboleth of Feanor'[HoMEXII]

8 OF THE SUN ANDTHE MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR
[ additions from Lost tales I ?] This is more problematic than many proposed additions as the nature of the details seems to have gone far afeild from the later conceptions.
================================================== ================================================== =

Volume II
QUENTA SILMARILLION ptII
being the Tales of Middle-Earth of the End of the First Age
these are drawn, up until the 15th chapter primarily from the War of the Jewels, after that it is an amalgam from The Book of Lost talesII, The Shaping of Middle-Earth, The Lost Road, The war of the Jewels, Unfinished Tales and , The 1977 Silmarillion .

9 OF MEN
I am not at all sure of the way to deal w/ the later conceptions of Chronology. Any ideas?

10 OF THE SIEGE OF ANGBAND

11 OF BELERIAND AND IT'S REALMS /[XV] OF THE NOLDOR IN
BELERIAND

add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor' [HoME 12]

12 OF TURGON AND THE BUILDING OF GONDOLIN coupled w/
[16] OF MAEGLIN
add from 'maeglin' in HoMEXI [possibly switch the order of Chapters w/ Of the Dwarves to reflect Eol's prior contact]

13 CONCERNING THE DWARVES
add from ' On Dwarves and Men' [HoME 12]

14 OF THE COMING OF MENINTO THE WEST
add from Finrod and Andreth{HoME10} and from On Dwarves and Men [HoME 12]
Add Faithful Stone ' from UT

15 OF THE RUIN OF BELERIAND AND THE FALL OF FINGOLFIN

16 ?- BEREN AND LUTHIEN
add from LaysIII
[ here the chapters have to re be renumbered ]

[2O] OF THE FIFTH BATTLE:NIRNAETH ARNOEDIAD
insert the section from the Narn of Hurin's farewell in Dor Lomin

[21] OF TURIN TURAMBAR &amp;'THE WANDERINGS OF HURIN'
add the 'Narn I Chin Hurin' [U T} II -V and XI

[22] OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH
add from II,IV,V [and later sketches of Hurin?] or
use CRT's chapter from the 77.

[23] OF TOUR AND THE FALL OF GONDOLIN
add of 'Of Tour and his coming to Gondolin [UT]and
details of the battle of the city fromHoME 2, see also IV


[24] OF THE VOYAGE OF EARENDILAND THE WAR OF WRATH
================================================== ================



Volume III
being the Appendices to the Quenta Silmarillion and the Tales of the Second and Third Ages.

[not yet in order]

* LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR

*FINROD AND AND ANDRETH [ATHRABETH]

*QUENDI AND ELDAR w/ the Osanwe - Kenta /[?]LHAMMAS

*TALE OF YEARS/ANNALS OF THE 1ST AGE [?]

*ETYMOLOGIES [revised]/ ELVISH DICTIONARY Quenya and
Sindarin



The tales of the Second and Third ages will hopefully appear on the next version.
</center>
++++++====================================
+++This outline does not as yet reflect the group consensus
on all
points [or on very many] it is primarily the opinions of lindil
who
loves lists and such.

+++ I have endeavored to include such decisions as the group
has
made [esp. in following the X versions of chapters and
subchapters
for the Early Silmarillion.

+++Even where not specifically mentioned it is assumed that
All
relevant Annals abd versions of the Quenta Silmarillion of
IV,V,X,
and XI will be consulted.

+++I have begun [but not completed using the abbreviations
used
in
the thread of the same name-so check there for resolution to
any
obscurities.

++++ [chapters listed from 1977 Silmarillion { aka. &quot;77}&quot; are
brackeeted]&quot;and in time the 77 chapters will be replaced by an
entirely new system based on the final revisions of Morgoth's
Ring
and War of the Jewels.

++++ all of the chapters not listed would still need to be
compared
w/
the many versions in the History series.

++++ Below however I list the major texts [or parts ] which I
think[at this point at least] can [ or should] be inserted in
whole or
part into the
respective chapters.

++++This is by no means an exhaustive listing ,just a
framework to
hang further ideas on -or take them off. I am sure there are
alot of
things I havn't caught yet so... Please feel free to monkey
around
w/ it and put up a new one.

++++ This not an outline that takes the more radical far
reaching
ideas of Myth's transformed into account . The thread of that
name
covers some issues ,

Perhaps an outline similar to this w/explanations of the
changes
involved in a MT versionof each chapter will appear at some
point in
the future.



==================================
Comments on the outline, possible revisions and omissions
from
the 'additions ' are of course most welcome.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 3/27/01 1:24:20 pm
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Old 03-27-2001, 02:33 PM   #56
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Outline

If you intend to use only JRRT's words, then there are some other problems to be addressed. For example, I don't believe that the Narn or the Wanderings of Hurin could be included in such a version, for two reasons. First, if this is to be THE &quot;Silmarillion&quot;, as it is to have been in Bilbo's books, we should honor JRRT's concept of the &quot;Silmarillion,&quot; namely, that it was a reduction based on much longer and fuller accounts. The Narn, Wanderings, and the later Tuor represent unfinished attempts at creating these fuller accounts, but were never intended to be part of the Silmarillion proper.

Second, there is the matter of the merit of the finished product in literary terms. While Tolkien fans have become good at patching together bits of narrative in totally different styles, in a complete Silmarillion, there is a certain consistency to be looked for. If we were to use only the fullest accounts written by JRRT, we would end up with a book that looked something like this: about 150 pages on the elves in Aman and the darkening of Valinor, maybe another 100 on the first few centuries of the war, including Beren and Luthien, then about another 150 pages on Turin, followed by 30 pages of a detailed narrative on Hurin, and then about 20 pages of quick summary for an ending. Clearly these are not the proportions that Tolkien envisioned! Nor would it make for very good reading; the ending in particular, I think, would be disappointing (after 180 pages of the Turin saga leading to . . . nothing?). Casual readers would be disgusted, and true Tolkien fans would rather read HoME.

If a unified Silm. is to be created, one of three choices must be taken: the allowance for certain creative expansions (which would eliminate the possibility of these being Bilbo's books), the extreme compression of the Narn and other large scale works (which would seem to trivialize them, and would certainly lose much of their power), or a compromise like what Christopher did, not using the Narn or Wanderings, except to further illuminate the course of the story.



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Old 03-27-2001, 03:26 PM   #57
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Re: Outline

Welcome to our Barrow Aiwendil! You make some valid points, though many have been addressed in other threads. I leave it to Lindil to illuminate you on these matters.

(See Lindil! I've been reading along. Just avoiding that thread with my name on it <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> )

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Old 03-27-2001, 06:39 PM   #58
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Re: Outline

M:I figured as much.

Aiwendil : you do make good points and indeed I think that there will be no 'perfect Silmarillion w/out resorting to Fan-Fiction, and even then it will take a minor miracle, and prob, not be acheivable.

So a few points I can respond to are:
1] The outline is purely my vision of what I would like to see done prior to any attempt to fill in gaps w/ Fan fiction.Others at the Downs may and will have slightly [or greatly] differing takes on what principles to follow.
What the group may eventually decide to do will depend on the group.
2]I do recognize that not all would enjoy the canon expanded in the way I outline. Personally I have wanted to read the stories in Chronological fullnes from the 1st time I read UT in 1980 or so.
This is in my opinion preference - wether one would rather have tales w/ varying depth of treatment. I think we already have it in 77 as it is. Beren and Luthien and Turin even compressed are far longer and richer in detail than the opening 10 chapters and the conclusion of Gondolin, Doriath and Earendil.So completing the canon by including the longer Tales is in my opinion a hearkening back to a full treatment as given in Lost Tales.Therein the Valinorean and pre-Beren and Luthien Chapters are all much more briefly treated w/ a few exceptions [tale of the sun and moon comes immediatly to mind].
As to wether longer versions represents Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish or not any direct comment by CRT or JRRT on this may well have escaped my notice [as have many things] I would love to see any references you may be aware of.

I would ask wether you have read for example the Turin stiry splicing the 77 abd UT sections ? I have and I find the continuity of stiry makes up for the lack of continuity of style. Others won't.
I am not convinced that outside of their being a large group that can get together and hash this out any version other than CRT's will gain wide acceptance.There are as I have stated [and Michael Martinez also] room for a variety of treatments.
My guiding principles are in short to edit the Silm in the Way that JRRT would were he trapped in a room w/ 77/UT/HoME[ and the Vinyar Tengwar additions] and making no changes to the text other than udating of language to reflect the most current form of Quenya or Sindarin.The fiinal conceptions must be in synch w/ the LotR and Road Goes Ever on.


I much appreciate your giving the outline and project scrutiny of this sort and I look forward to seeing your views on the many ideas and views that come up.




This is arbitrary on some levels but I see it as a self -consistent set of principles

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-27-2001, 06:50 PM   #59
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Re: Outline

Aiwendil posted: &quot;Clearly these are not the proportions that Tolkien envisioned! &quot;
lindil: I think they are quite close to Lost Tales as I mentioned les clearly above. As to a final conception we never see it. I recall some statements that the Long versions would be an appendix and in a fan fiction version this could be done -sticking w/ his words [and CRT when absolutely needed] it could not.

A:&quot;Nor would it make for very good reading; the ending in particular, I think, would be disappointing (after 180 pages of the Turin saga leading to . . . nothing?).

Lindil: leading actually to a rather full treatment of the Fall of Gondolin.And then the endings more or less provided by 77/CRT , I confess I have not looked at the Lost Tales Earendil close enough or recently enough to hazard a guess of how much if any could be used in a New Silm.

A:&quot;Casual readers would be disgusted,&quot;

l: I don't think I would use the word disgusted . Perhaps a poll is in order <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ?


A:&quot;...and true Tolkien fans would rather read HoME.&quot;

L: Rather debatable , how does one know if one is a true Tolkien Fan , By a canon preference
test?





Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-27-2001, 07:13 PM   #60
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Re: Outline

I don't see anything wrong with trying to define or even write a new Silmarillion. I would rather have a dozen unsatisfactory attempts to choose from than just one.

In the end it is just a story, and a rich story lives on beyond its first teller, and is retold and rewritten and transformed into a wealth of stories.

If we hold ourselves to an arbitrary moratorium on retelling the story, we impoverish ourselves and our literary heirs.

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Old 03-27-2001, 08:09 PM   #61
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Re: Outline

Michael: I hope my words didn't suggest that I'm opposed to a new Silmarillion. I'm rather attracted to the idea, actually (I've been considering it for some time myself and only recently stumbled upon this forum). I'm merely trying to point out the difficulties inherent in this particular approach - not insurmountable, I hope, but worthy of attention.

Lindil: I understand your approach, and was not trying to malign it in any way. I'm simply concerned about the &quot;authenticity&quot; of a Silmarillion constructed using the Narn and so forth. I agree that a great deal of the Silm. does deal with the later tales, but I don't think that the Turin saga should be as long as all that's come before it (particularly other stories that are just as well developed but not extant in such long forms, e.g., Beren and Luthien). I haven't looked at enough of your work so far to know just how long you intend the Turin chapter, for instance, to be.

My main concern regards the end of the Silm.: the Fall of Gondolin, the Ruin of Doriath, and the Voyage of Earendil. The first of these could be fairly well compiled from the later Tuor and the lost tale. This would require a good bit of editorial alteration for consistency of plot as well as of style, but is feasible. The second, the Ruin of Doriath, is where real problems begin to pop up. About the first third of this exists in the long, in depth version, &quot;The Wanderings of Hurin&quot;. From the end of this all the way through the end of the book, though, there is nothing but the old Quenta Noldorinwa of 1930 (and a slightly expanded 1937 version of the end of 'Earendil'). It would be quite a discrepancy to leap from such a fully formed narrative to such a brief summary - I think this is largely why Christopher basically ignored the Wanderings of Hurin and much of the Narn in the 77. The Lost Tales is no help here, as Tolkien didn't even begin drafting the tale of Earendil. The only ways to handle this would be to drastically compress the Narn, Gondolin, etc., or to expand Earendil and parts of the Ruin of Doriath.

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Old 03-27-2001, 08:30 PM   #62
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Re: Re: Outline

Having just come off a thread where I've lost my temper at Tar-Elenion once again, I thought Lindil was looking a little defensive and I thought some encouragement would be appreciated.

I think Lindil has a pretty good idea of what he's biting off. I've discussed some of the challenges in private email with him.

However, since Christopher Tolkien used the &quot;Narn&quot; to write &quot;Of Turin Turambar&quot;, I don't see why Lindil couldn't? &quot;Quenta Silmarillion&quot; grew in size and scope each time Tolkien revisited it. And though &quot;The Wanderings of Hurin&quot; was not used by Christopher Tolkien, I think it would have served as a fine blueprint for the text which should have been.

The need to complete the narrative, however, doesn't mean one shouldn't utilize the later texts.

Technically, a canon defines what is authentic. If I were to compose a definition of canon for the Silmarillion texts I would indeed include the later texts, provided they were consistent with the general story. But even defining a canon doesn't satisfy the desire to see the entire story told. So, if one is going to retell the story, then why not just go ahead and retell it?

This project isn't going to win any recognition from the Tolkien Estate, and I'm sure if they knew about it they would be quite displeased. But the story has ignited people's imaginations. Why shouldn't those imaginations be encouraged?

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Old 03-28-2001, 01:23 AM   #63
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Re: 5.4b Outline

Michael , I much appreciate your encouragement and support.
Aiwendil posted:
&quot;I'm merely trying to point out the difficulties inherent in this particular approach - not
insurmountable, I hope, but worthy of attention.&quot;
I did not take your critique as anything more than what you intended, and indee I appreciate the feedback on the proposals. Ihave no illusions that my rough vision of the project is anywhere near clear enough to see all the obstacles in the road. The Fingolfin debate [whichever side one comes down on] shows just how much impact smallsections of the story have on the rest.



I posted the following some weeks back in this thread in response to Gwaihir who was/is interested in using a small bit of creative license in the current project, in response I spelled out a 'grand vision' [some might more aptly say hallucination <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> ] of the issues of:
1]Canon
2] Creative writing and the Silm Canon
3] fan fiction and Canon

It presupposes a fixed Silmarillion which has maximum content which could then be compressed, added to w/ creative writing [as in CRT's ruin of doriath], and supplemented w/ Fan-Fiction as in the expanded star wars universe].

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Gwaihir, I propose [as 1 member of the project to another] as a solution to the creative writing issue - that you make 2 [or more ] versions of your sections
,[or anything you want to put your hand to] the one you post here could [I would say should] be the one that has only JRRT's words from Silm, UT and HoME.
The other version[s] , can be posted here [in their own thread or elsewhere as Gwaihir's Silm or whatever you like.

As a ray of hope let me out line the posible outcomes of our work .Which if agreed upon by the group allow at a future date full scope for your creative urges. I will attach it to my outline at some point.

The following is a rough outline of possible outcomes which could flow from a new canon of the Silmarillion

1&gt; We [those of us at the Silm project here at the B'downs] work on drafts and outlines of the Silm here, doing enough work to be able to show the flavor and vision of the project.
2&gt; we send it or notice of it far and wide over the internet [legally iffy I know - Mithadan any professional advice ?] possibly w/ anonymous safeguards.
3&gt;A larger group that can work faster than 2 sections of a chapter per season forms and spends an indefinite amount of time hashing out an insanely
large # of details, and then begins on one or several fronts:
I. Non-MT- Flat World Version

A.This as I am hypothesizing would have no non published words/ideas/phrases/sentences /etc.
B. One using Creative Writing [or inspired forgery] as CRT did to attempt to fill out in a tolkienesque way the gaps inthe story esp. in the chapterson
Turin,Gondolin and the Ruin Doriath
C. the resultant commitee can also be arbiter for 'official-unathorized Fan- fiction'. Meaning since there is no [as yet] Lucas Books wing of the Tolkien estate
overseeingthe codification and further creation of writings of ME; we create an underground one that by shear #'s ,quality of work [I hope] and warmth of
community [I really hope] , becomes an established fact.Maybe an official one prob not. But a functional and organized one at least.This fan-fiction would all
have to be integrated both w/ the Canon of LotR/hobbit/RGEO and co. and the 'Canon' of the NewSilm. and most importantly w/ each of the other stories.

II.MT- Round World Version
repeat as above w/
A. being the 'drafts' of JRRT of an MT version and final text [mostly from I. above as it is adaptable].
B. as above , but far more abundantly.

III. Fan fiction -'authorized' by &quot; the Commitee for the Expansion of Middle-Earth&quot; or some such.

So hopefully by spelling out this pipedream [ I have alluded to it before - but never laid it out], I give a clear picture of my personal view of the posibilities of: :
A - this project
B - my thoughts on the scope and place of and for creative writing
C - the problems w/ it being introduced at this phase
[it would muddle the ground of pure JRRT/CRT canon from which other creativ/FF can grow]
D - a vision of integrated fan -fiction <hr></blockquote>

That is the overall context that I put an initial New Silmarillion into:
A] establish Canon/Text
B] elaborate w/ a more balanced , fleshed out Silmarillion [if any one feels they / actuallydoes have the knack of imitating Tolkien's stlye and depth] This phase would I believe Aiwendil be more along the lines of satisfaction to you. But it would be far more difficult than Fan-fiction or Cutting and pasting [and updating JRRT]
C] use the above 2 as a canonical springboard for other peices such as say 'The green -elves and their coming to to beleriand' or 'Of Cirdan and the Havens of Brithombar and Eglareset' etc.


Much will most certainlydialouge is needed to clarify ideas, weed out tares and troubleshoot problems. I know everytime
there is a major discussion on one point [Kings of the Noldor, Celeborn, Myth's Transformed etc. - I come away w/ a better picturte of the whole and parts than I started with, so I have no illusions that any of the above enumerations are anything more than springboards.]








Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 4/1/01 6:24:06 am
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Old 06-08-2001, 05:36 AM   #64
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Outline 5.4

here is Lindil's 'OLD WORLD' SILMARILLION outline as it
stands now:



================================



TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ELVISH vol. I-III [?]
===

Volume I
Being the Tales of the Creation and the coming of the Eldar and rebellion of the Noldor in Valinor:


AINULINDALE
VALAQUNTA
both from X
-----------
QUENTA SILMARILLION pt1 the base texts for which are the Annals of Aman and the LQ2 of [ X]

******
1 Of VALINOR AND THE TWO TREES /OF THE BEGINING DAYS

2 OF AULE AND YAVANNA

3 OF THE COMING OF THE ELVES
add parts of 'Quendi andEldar' re : the '144' [XI]
4 OF THINGOL AND MELIAN

5 OF ELDAMAR AND THE PRINCES OFTHE ELDALIE add from the Shibboleth of Feanor [XII]
6 {OF THE SILMARILS}THE DARKENING OF VALINOR
[the subchapter division is from X- LQII]
6a + FINWE AND MIRIEL
[w/possible selections from Laws&amp;Customs...' [X]add from the Shibboleth of Feanor [XII]
6b +OF FEANOR AND THE UNCHAINING OF MELKOR
6c + OF THE SILMARILS AND THE UNREST OF
THE NOLDOR
add from'Shibboleth of Feanor' ? [XII]
6d + OF THE DARKENING OF VALINOR
add from of the festival of val
NB: this draft is actually completed and under the thread DoV:...
6e +OF THE RAPE OF THE SILMARILL
6f +OF THE THIEVES ' QUARREL
7 OF THE FLIGHT OF THE NOLDOR
add from'Shibboleth of Feanor'[XII]
8 OF THE SUN ANDTHE MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR
[ additions from Lost tales I ?] This is more problematic than many proposed additions as the nature of the details seems to have gone far afeild from the later conceptions.
================================================== ================================================== =

Volume II
Of the War of the Jewels and incorporating the longer fragments of the Narn i hin Hurin , of Tuor and his Coming to and the Fall of Gondolin, the Wanderings of Hurin
&quot;QUENTA SILMARILLION &quot;ptII
Being the Tales of Middle-Earth of the End of the First Age
these are drawn, up until the 15th chapter primarily from the War of the Jewels, after that it is an amalgam from The Book of Lost talesII, The
Shaping of Middle-Earth, The Lost Road, The War of the Jewels, Unfinished Tales and , The 1977/2001 Silmarillion .


9 OF MEN
I am not at all sure of the way to deal w/ the later conceptions of Chronology. Any ideas?

10 OF THE SIEGE OF ANGBAND
11 OF BELERIAND AND IT'S REALMS /[XV] OF THE NOLDOR INBELERIAND
add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor' [XII]
12 OF TURGON AND THE BUILDING OF GONDOLIN coupled w/ OF MAEGLIN
add from 'maeglin' in XI [possibly switch the order of Chapters w/ Of the Dwarves to reflect Eol's prior contact]

13 CONCERNING THE DWARVES
add from ' On Dwarves and Men' [XII]

14 OF THE COMING OF MEN INTO THE WEST
add the 'Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth' {X} and from On Dwarves and Men and, Faithful Stone ' from UT [XII]

15 OF THE RUIN OF BELERIAND AND THE FALL OF FINGOLFIN

16 - BEREN AND LUTHIEN
add from [III]

[ here the chapters have been tentativly renumbered ]

[17] OF THE FIFTH BATTLE:NIRNAETH ARNOEDIAD
insert the section from the Narn of Hurin's farewell in Dor Lomin

[18] OF TUOR AND HIS COMING TO GONDOLIN
[19] OF TURIN TURAMBAR AND THE NARN I CHIN HURIN
[U T, II,V and XI] and the gloss from 'Aelfwine and Dirhavel' from [XI]

[20] OF THE WANDERINGS OF HURIN and OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH
add from II,IV,V [and later sketches of Hurin?] or
[and I consider this more feasable]use CRT's chapter from the 77.


[21] THE FALL OF GONDOLIN
add of details of the battle of the city and flight to Sirion from [II]


[22] OF THE VOYAGE OF EARENDIL AND THE WAR OF WRATH
[w/ or without the 2nd prophecy of mandos?]
================================================== ================



Volume III
being the Appendices to the Quenta Silmarillion and the Tales of the Second and Third Ages.
[not yet in order]

* LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR

*QUENDI AND ELDAR w/ the Osanwe - Kenta [and LHAMMAS ?]

*TALE OF YEARS/ANNALS OF THE 1ST AGE [?]

*ETYMOLOGIES ? [revised]/ ELVISH DICTIONARY Quenya and
Sindarin


* Commentary/Notes to the ATHRABETH FINROD HA ANDRETH


NB : The tales of the Second and Third ages will hopefully appear on the next version.
====================================
+++This outline does not as yet reflect the group consensus
on allpoints [or on very many] it is primarily the opinions of lindil
+++ I have endeavored to include such queries, conclusions and questions which the forum as the group debated has made [esp. in following the X versions of chapters and subchapters for the Early Silmarillion.
+++Even where not specifically mentioned it is assumed that all
relevant Annals and versions of the Quenta Silmarillion of I-V, and X-XII will be consulted
+++I have begun [but not completed using the abbreviations
used in the thread of the same name-so check there for resolution to
minimize anyobscurities.
++++This is by no means an exhaustive listing ,just a
framework to hang further ideas on -or take them off. I am sure there are
alot of things I havn't caught yet so... Please feel free to monkey around
w/ it and put up a new one.
++++ This not an outline that takes the more radical farreaching
ideas of Myth's Tansformed cosmology into account . The thread of that namecovers some issues , Perhaps an outline similar to this w/explanations of the changes involved in a MT versionof each chapter will appear at somepoint inthe future by someone w/ a strong urge to tackle it

================================== Comments on the outline, are of course most welcome.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-12-2002, 11:35 PM   #65
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I offer a revision of lindil's 5.4 outline, no changes except that it is neater and more specific on where to find passages. That will be of great help to anyone coming in mid-way on the project like myself. There shouldn't be any errors, but you might should check anyway.

<font style="Courier New" size="2">
TRANSLATIONS FROM THE ELVISH vol. I-III [?]


Volume I

A. AINULINDALE from [HoME-X, Part 1]

B. VALAQUENTA from [HoME-X, Part 3]

C. QUENTA SILMARILLION, Part I

The base texts are the Annals of Aman[HoME-X, Part 2] and the LQ2[HoME-X, Part 3]


1. Of VALINOR AND THE TWO TREES / OF THE BEGINING DAYS

2. OF AULE AND YAVANNA

3. OF THE COMING OF THE ELVES
add parts of 'Quendi and Eldar' re : the '144' [HoME-XI, Part 4]

4. OF THINGOL AND MELIAN

5. OF ELDAMAR AND THE PRINCES OFTHE ELDALIE
add from the Shibboleth of Feanor [HoME-XII, Part 2]

6. {OF THE SILMARILS}THE DARKENING OF VALINOR
[the subchapter division is from LQII[HoME-X, Part 3]

6a. + FINWE AND MIRIEL
[w/possible selections from 'Laws&Customs'[HoME-X, Part 3]
add from the Shibboleth of Feanor [HoME-XII, Part 2]

6b. +OF FEANOR AND THE UNCHAINING OF MELKOR

6c. + OF THE SILMARILS AND THE UNREST OF THE NOLDOR
add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor' ? [HoME-XII, Part 2]

6d. + OF THE DARKENING OF VALINOR
add from of the festival of valinor [HoME-I, Part 6]

*Note*: this draft is actually completed and under the thread DoV:...

6e. +OF THE RAPE OF THE SILMARILS

6f. +OF THE THIEVES' QUARREL

7. OF THE FLIGHT OF THE NOLDOR
add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor'[HoME-XII, Part 2]

8. OF THE SUN AND THE MOON AND THE HIDING OF VALINOR
[ additions from 'Lost Tales I' ?] This is more problematic than many proposed additions
as the nature of the details seems to have gone far afeild from the later conceptions.

Volume II

Of the War of the Jewels and incorporating the longer fragments of the Narn i hin Hurin,
Of Tuor And His Coming To and the Fall of Gondolin, and the Wanderings of Hurin.


A. QUENTA SILMARILLION, Part II

The Tales of Middle-Earth of the End of the First Age.

These are drawn, up until the 15th chapter primarily from the War of the Jewels, after
that it is an amalgam from The Book of Lost Tales II, The Shaping of Middle-Earth,
The Lost Road, The War of the Jewels, Unfinished Tales, and The Silmarillion(1977/2001).

9. OF MEN
I am not at all sure of the way to deal w/ the later conceptions of Chronology. Any ideas?

10. OF THE SIEGE OF ANGBAND

11. OF BELERIAND AND IT'S REALMS / OF THE NOLDOR IN BELERIAND
add from 'Shibboleth of Feanor' [HoME-XII, Part 2]

12. OF TURGON AND THE BUILDING OF GONDOLIN coupled w/ OF MAEGLIN
add from 'Maeglin' in [HoME-XI, Part 3]
[possibly switch the order of Chapters w/ Of the Dwarves to reflect Eol's prior contact.]

13. CONCERNING THE DWARVES
add from 'On Dwarves and Men' [HoME-XII, Part 2]

14. OF THE COMING OF MEN INTO THE WEST
add the 'Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth' [HoME-X, Part 4] and from
'On Dwarves and Men'[HoME-XII, Part 2]
Add 'Faithful Stone' from Unfinished Tales.

15. OF THE RUIN OF BELERIAND AND THE FALL OF FINGOLFIN

16. BEREN AND LUTHIEN
add from [HoME-III, Part 2]

*Note*: Hereafter the chapters have been tentativly renumbered.

[17.] OF THE FIFTH BATTLE: NIRNAETH ARNOEDIAD
insert the section from Narn I Hin Hurin of Hurin's farewell in Dorlomin
[Unfinished Tales]

[18.] OF TUOR AND HIS COMING TO GONDOLIN

[19.] OF TURIN TURAMBAR AND THE NARN I CHIN HURIN
(Unfinished Tales, [HoME-II, Part 2], [HoME-V, Part ?], and [HoME-XI, Part 3])
and the gloss from 'Aelfwine and Dirhavel' from [HoME-XI, Part 2]

[20.] OF THE WANDERINGS OF HURIN and OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH
add from [HoME-II], [HoME-IV], and [HoME-V] (and later sketches of Hurin?) or
(and I consider this more feasable) use CRT's chapter from the 77.

[21.] THE FALL OF GONDOLIN
add of details of the battle of the city and flight to Sirion from [HoME-II, Part 3]

[22.] OF THE VOYAGE OF EARENDIL AND THE WAR OF WRATH
[w/ or without the 2nd prophecy of mandos?]

Volume III

Appendices to the Quenta Silmarillion and the Tales of the Second and Third Ages.
[not yet in order]

* LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR

*QUENDI AND ELDAR w/ the Osanwe - Kenta [and LHAMMAS ?]

*TALE OF YEARS/ANNALS OF THE 1ST AGE [?]

*ETYMOLOGIES ? [revised]/ ELVISH DICTIONARY Quenya and Sindarin

* Commentary/Notes to the ATHRABETH FINROD HA ANDRETH


*Note*: The tales of the Second and Third ages will hopefully appear on the next version.

====================================
+++This outline does not as yet reflect the group consensus on all points [or on very many]
it is primarily the opinions of lindil.

+++ I have endeavored to include such queries, conclusions and questions which the forum as the group debated has made [esp. in following the [HoME-X] versions of chapters and subchapters for the Early Silmarillion.

+++Even where not specifically mentioned it is assumed that all relevant Annals and versions
of the Quenta Silmarillion of [HoME-I-V] and [HoME-X-XII] will be consulted.

+++I have begun (but not completed) using the abbreviations used in the thread of the same name, so check there for resolution to minimize any obscurities.

++++This is by no means an exhaustive listing, just a framework to hang further ideas on,
or take them off. I am sure there are a lot of things I havn't caught yet so... Please feel free to monkey around w/ it and put up a new one.

++++ This not an outline that takes the more radical far reaching ideas of the
Myth's Tansformed cosmology into account. The thread of that name covers some issues. Perhaps an outline similar to this w/explanations of the changes involved in a MT version of each chapter will appear at some point in the future by someone w/ a strong urge to tackle it.


[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]
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Old 02-16-2003, 07:47 AM   #66
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My pardon Mhoram, for thanking you waay back for the sprucing up of the unofficial outline.

I hope to turn my attention back to it soon and in links to ongoing discussions/work where relevant and add greatly to the notes re: possible additions.

If others wish this can become an official discussion thread and the repository of our collective thoughts on specific proposed changes/alterations.
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Old 03-06-2003, 10:17 PM   #67
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lindil, I wanted to post this in the * * Introduction and FAQ's to the Forum and the Rev. Silmarillion Project * * , thread. I wanted to make a suggestion regardin the Second Age material to be used.
THE SECOND AGE:
-Of the Founding of Númenor [w/ a description of Númenor from UT]
-Of the Elf kingdoms in Middle-Earth and of Dwarves and Men [pre- war material]
- Aldarion and Erendis
- Tal Elmar
- Of the Rings of Power The War of the Elves and Sauron
- Of the Line of Elros and the Fall of Númenor
-Of the Last Alliance

I would like to propose to add, Chapter III and IV (The Númenórean Chapters) of The Lost Road in Home V.
I think that it gives us an interesting look at Númenórean society in the seemingly last few years of Númenor. Granted that it would need a bit of work, but if we can do the FOG, how hard can this be. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 03-07-2003, 02:23 AM   #68
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Done. Good suggestion.
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Old 03-07-2003, 07:33 AM   #69
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Hm...may I ask if we could include "The New Shadow" (HoMe 12) in the appendices, because I, and many others may feel, it would make an intresting addition, and it is the only story on the F.A.
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Old 03-07-2003, 08:36 AM   #70
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I would be extremely hesitant because JRRT himself thought it was 'merely a thriller, and if I recall correctly rejected it both while working on it, and then again after looking it over years later. He refers rather disparagingly to it in the Letters also, if I am not mistaken.
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Old 01-18-2005, 09:53 AM   #71
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This discussion of the structure of the “Translation from the Elvish“ has been idle for a long long time. But since we have finish five chapters (if we count them as they are presented here) and have already missed at least on chapter-break as they are supposed here, I think it is time to discuss the chapter structure a bit more seriously.
I will concentrate here on the first part of the “Translation of the Elvish” which will be the narrative of the ages up to the defeat of Morgoth. As an aside point I will suggest here a Title for this volume: “The Elder Days”
I would deal with volumes not in the way Lindil did suggest. There is nothing that forces us to make them all the same length. Thus I would suggest that two volumes of Tales and one with Essays and such things would work best:
Thus:
Translations from the Elvish
volume 1: The Elder Days
volume 2: Númenor and the History of the North-West of Middle-Earth
volume 3: The Lore of the Wise
The title are only rough working title and need refinement.

But my main point is the structure of what I suggested above as volume 1. The first two chapters (Ainilindale and Valaquenta) are clear and, I think, need no further discussion. They are in a way independent of the rest. A further part of it will be filled by the “Later Quenta Silmarillion”. In other places it will be a mixture of the “Great Tales” (Narn, Later Tuor, Wanderings of Húrin), the “Lost Tales” (Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, The Tale of the Nauglafring), the Lays of Beleriand (Lay of Leithian, Lay of Eärendel, Lay of the Children of Húrin), parts of the “Annals”-tradition and of the “Quenta”-tradition. In some other discussions it was decided that what we produce is not supposed to be any bock that had an feigned internal reality. Thus we acknowledge the fact that neither the produce version of “Tour and the Fall of Gondolin” nor the Versions of the “Narn” or the “Lay of Leithian” that are jet to come will fit in any form of the “Quenta Silmarillion”.
With this said we could feel free to make up our own chapter-structure were ever we would like to do that. This freedom we will us at least in the aforementioned Tales, that do not fit in the “Quenta”. But what is about the rest? And how do we link the “Great Tales” into our work?
As we have already experienced in more then one point we have hard breaks in our narrative. I foresee with out any doubt at least one further very hard break of that kind. These are inevitable and even when we try our best to smooth them we can not conceal them. As will be seen easily the hardest breaks appear in places were the other sources break of and we are left with the “Quenta”-tradition as the fullest account of the remaining part of the narrative (the end of the “Lay of Leithian” will be a perfect example).
As jet it was suggested to order the Tales as good as possible in chronological order. I agree with this in general, but in detail I doubt that this is the way to go. It would mean to break such tales as “Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin” which we have just pasted together with much travail, into pieces again (as it is normal when one has used a good glue, the breakinglines will be in different places, thus what we get would not only be a heap of shreds but a heap of shreds that are themself already glued fragments).
I think that it is much better if we would follow the “Quenta Silmarillion” in the placing of the “Tales” as entities and acknowledge the fact that what we present is an amalgament of different sources. I would go even so fare as to name the parts which are driven from the “Quenta” (or to take a more external view, the parts were our produced narrative could be supposed to be a part of the “Later Quenta Silmarillion”) and to name the parts of the “Quenta” that are replaced by other material.
Before I give away my own idea about the structure of the first volume of the “Translation from the Elvish”, I will make a throughout analysis of the chapter-structure of the “Lost Tales” and the various “Quenta”’s. For this task a chart would be best. But the forum does not easily allow that an therefore I will provide only simple listing for each work discussed. In the Case of the “Lost Tales” Tolkien did change his mind while he worked on the Tales. Thus we have a earlier Version and later Version. I will only provide the later Version since that does more or less follow the chronological order. Often the sources do not provide us with headlines for the chapters. Were that is the case I have worked backwards and adopted as fitting as possible chapter-headings from the later versions. The Only part that never got a title is the second part of the Túrin-Saga from Flinding/Gwindor leading him Nargothrond to the Death of Túrin, for this I simply called “Of Túrin and Glaurung” with the proper name of dragon according to the version of the tale.

To make the later suggesting more understandable I will introduce some formation system for the headings:
Great Tale = headings of text collections such as: Narn Beren ion Barahir
Chapter = such as: The Lay of Leithian
Sub-chapter = such as: Of Thingol in Doriath
Sub-heading = such as: Of Lúthien the Beloved

The Bock of Lost Tales
1 Ælfwine of England
2 The cottage of Lost Play
3 The Music of the Ainur
4 The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor
5 The Chaning of Melko
6 The Coming of the elves and the Making of Kôr
7 The Theft of Melko and the Darkening of Valinor
8 The Flight of the Noldoli
9 The Tale of the Sun and the Moon
10 The Hiding of Valinor
11 The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind
12 The Tale of Tinúviel
13 The Tale of Turambar and the Foalóke
14 The Fall of Gondolin
15 The Nauglafring – The Necklace of the Dwarves
16 [Eärendels youth and first voyage]
17 [Eärendels second voyage and the building of Wingilot]
18 [Eärendels voyage to Valinor]
19 [The destruction of the Heavens of Sirion, the March of the Elves of Kôr and the retread of the Elves to Tol Eressea]
20 [Eärendels voyage back, his journey to the Ruins of Gondolin, and his search for Elwing]
21 Eärendels voyage to the firmament
?22 [Ælfwine’s voyage home]?


Sketch of the Mythology
1 [Of Valinor and the Two Trees]
2 [Of the Coming of the Elves, Of Thingol]
3 [Of Kôr and Alqualondë, Of the Silmarils]
4 [Of the Darkening of Valinor]
5 [Of the Flight of the Noldoli]
6 [Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor]
7 [Of Men]
8 [Of the Return of the Noldor]
9 [Of the Siege of Angband, Of the Ruin of Beleriand]
10 [Of Beren and Lúthien]
11 [Of the Third Battle: The Battle of Unnumbered Tears]
12 [Of Túrin in The Hapless]
13 [Of Túrin and Glórung]
14 [Of the Ruin of Doriath]
15 [Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin]
16 [Of Meglin, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin]
17 [Of the Voyage of Eärendil]
18 [Of The Terrible or Last Battle]
19 [Of the judgement of the Gods and the Prophecy of the Last End of the World]


The Quenta
[Of the Valar]
1 [Of Valinor and the Two Trees]
2 [Of the Coming of the Elves, Of Thingol]
3 [Of Kôr and Alqualondë, Of the Silmarils]
4 [Of the Darkening of Valinor]
5 [Of the Flight of the Noldoli]
6 [Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor]
7 [Of Men]
8 [Of the Return of the Noldor]
9 [Of the Siege of Angband, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin]
10 [Of Beren and Lúthien]
11 [Of the Third Battle: The Battle of Unnumbered Tears]
12 [O Túrin the Hapless]
13 [Of Túrin and Glórung]
14 [Of the Ruin of Doriath]
15 [Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin]
16 [Of Meglin, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin]
17 [Of the Voyage of Eärendil]
18 [Of The Terrible or Last Battle]
19 [Of the judgement of the Gods and the Prophecy of the Last End of the World]


Quenta Silmarillion
1 Of the Valar
2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
3a Of the Coming of the Elves
3b Of Thingol
3c Of Kôr and Alqualondë
4 Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor
5 Of the Flight of the Noldor
6 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
7 Of Men
8 Of the Siege of Angband
9 Of Beleriand and its Realms
10 Of Men and Dwarfs
11 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

The Death of Fingolfin
… Of the Swarthy Men
… The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Gumlin

12 Of Beren and Lúthien Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien
13 Of Beren and Lúthien The Quest of the Silmaril
14 The Quest of the Silmaril 2
15 The Quest of the Silmaril 3
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
16 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos
The Choices of Lúthien
16 [sic] Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad Of the Union of Maidros
17 Of Túrin Turamarth or Túrin the Hapless
{13} [Of Túrin and Glórung]
{14} [Of the Ruin of Doriath]
{15} [Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin]
{16} [Of Meglin, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin]
{17} [Of the Voyage of Eärendil]
?? Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath

Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
… Of the Passing of the Elves
… The Second Prophecy of Mandos


The chapter {13} to {17} are taken into the “Quenta Silmarillion” in script from “The Quenta”. In the middle of {17} the “Quenta Silmarillon” is build by a revised copy. There were no chapter numbers. But their seemed to be a difference between the first inserted Headline (Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath) and the others in that Tolkien envisaged at this place a chapter break from the start (by inserting a greater space and beginning the next § with an ornate initale, while the other headlines were only written against a §-break. Therefore I have taken the others only as sub-chapters.

The Later Quenta Silmarillion Version 1
1 Of the Valar
2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
3 Of the Coming of the Elves
4 Of Thingol and Melian
5 Of Eldanor and the Princes of the Eldalie
6 Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor
7 Of the Flight of the Noldor
8 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
9 Of Men
10 Of the Siege of Angband
11 Of Beleriand and its Realms
12 Of the Naugrim and the Edain

Concerning the Dwarves
… Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim
… Of the Edain

13 Of the Ruin of Beleriand
The Death of Fingolfin
… Of the Swarthy Men
… The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor

14 Of Beren and Lúthien Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien
15 Of Beren and Lúthien The Quest of the Silmaril
16 The Quest of the Silmaril 2
17 The Quest of the Silmaril 3
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
18 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos[/b]
The Choices of Lúthien
19 Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad Of the Union of Maidros
20 Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad Of the Union of Maidros
21 Of Túrin Turamarth or Túrin the Hapless

There is nothing more in that version. Chapter 15 to the end are only dull copies of “The Quenta Silmarillion”

The Later Quenta Silmarillion Version 2
1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
2 Of the Coming of the Elves
3 Of Thingol and Melian
4 Of Eldanor and the Princes of the Eldalie
5 Of Finwë and Míriel
6 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
7 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
8 Of the Drakening of Valinor

Of the Rape of the Silmarils
9 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
10 Of the Flight of the Noldor
11 Of Men
12 Of the Siege of Angband
13 The Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin

Of Dagor Aglareb
14 Of Beleriand and its Realms
[15] Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
16 Concerning the Dwarfes

Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim
17 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand
Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
… Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain

18 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
The Death of Fingolfin
… Of the Swarthy Men
… The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor

[19] Of Beren and Lúthien Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien
[20] Of Beren and Lúthien The Quest of the Silmaril
[21] The Quest of the Silmaril 2
[22] The Quest of the Silmaril 3
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
[23] The Song of Lúthien in Mandos
The Choices of Lúthien
[24] Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad Of the Union of Maidros
[25] Of Túrin Turamarth or Túrin the Hapless
??
[27] [Of the Ruin of Doriath]
[28] [Of the founding of Gondolin]
[29] [Of Meglin, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin]
[30] [Of the Voyage of Eärendil]
[31] Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath

Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
… Of the Passing of the Elves
… The Second Prophecy of Mandos


Tolkien did make a renumbering up to chapter 10. Since he thought of an “Round Earth Version he numbered “Of Men” with 11 and omitted “Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor”. He did then go one with the renumbering up to 18, missing only to scrib in the #15. I have renumbered the rest of the chapters accordingly. After the chapter “Of Túrin the Hapless” is a gape in the narrative. It might be that Tolkien saw a second chapter for the Túrin Saga as it had been in all other versions of the “Quenta”-tradition. From the Chapters “Of Beren and Lúthien” to the mid of “Of Túrin the Hapless” are only dull copies of “The Later Quenta Silmarillion Version 1”. Afterwards to the middle of “The Tale of Eärendil” the script is a copy of “The Quenta”. The rest is a slightly revised copy of the conclusion of “The Quenta Silmarillion”.

Last but not least we have the “Quenta Silmarillion ‘77” by Christopher Tolkien. For a better understanding of his rearrangements I will in some places give the old chapter-heading from LQ2 in braktes.
Quenta Silmarillion ‘77
1 Of the Beginnig of Days [Of Valinor and the Two Trees]
2 Of Aule and Yavanna [Concerning Naugrim + Of the Ents and the Eagles]
3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
4 Of Thingol and Melian
5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
6 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
7 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
8 Of the Drakening of Valinor
9 Of the Flight of the Noldor
10 Of the Sindar [Added from the Grey Annals]
11 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
12 Of Men
13 Of the Return of the Noldor
14 Of Beleriand and its Realms
15 Of the Noldor in Beleriand
16 Of Maeglin [Added from a Tale of its own]
17 Of the Coming of Men into the West
18 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
19 Of Beren and Lúthien
20 Of the Fifthe Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
21 Of Túrin Turambar [Edited up from the Narn and the 2 old Chapters concerning Túrin]
22 Of the Ruin of Doriath [Edited up from various sources]
23 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin [Edited with material from the Later Tuor]
24 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath


From what Lindil has posted, I do not see what will be the content of “Concerning Dwarves” if he takes up Christopher Tolkiens idea of dealing with the creation of them in “Of Aule and Yavanna”. In addition Lindil had not taken up Christopher’s chapter “Of the Sindar”, which I would think is needed in our version, even if we may consider reshaping it from the original sources.

What I will first provide is an enlarged version of the chapter-structure of the “Quenta Silmarillion”. Thus I include all that is given by LQ1 and LQ2 and add to it what I feel is necessary or change the order of chapters following Christopher Tolkien when I feel that this servers our over-all goal better. The chapters are renumber.

Quenta Silmarillion
1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
[2 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles
Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim
… Of the Ents and the Eagles
]
3 Of the Coming of the Elves
4 Of Thingol and Melian
5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
6 Of Finwë and Míriel
7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
8 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
9 Of the Drakening of Valinor

Of the Rape of the Silmarils
10 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
11 Of the Flight of the Noldor

[12 Of the Sindar]
13 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
14 Of Men
15 Of the Siege of Angband
16 The Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin

Of Dagor Aglareb
17 Of Beleriand and its Realms
18 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin

[19 Of Maeglin]
20 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand
Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
… Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain

21 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
The Death of Fingolfin
… Of the Swarthy Men
… The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor

22 Of Beren and Lúthien Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien
23 Of Beren and Lúthien The Quest of the Silmaril
24 The Quest of the Silmaril 2
25 The Quest of the Silmaril 3
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
26 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos
The Choices of Lúthien
27 Of the Fifth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad Of the Union of Maidros
28 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapless
29 [Of Túrin and Glaurung]
30 Of the Ruin of Doriath
31 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
32 Of the Voyage of Eärendil
33 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath

Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
… Of the Passing of the Elves
… The Second Prophecy of Mandos


Now to this we would add what we can rescue from the “Great Tales”. There for I would include under the heading of the Quenta Silmarillion and Editorial Note like this:
Quote:
Quenta Silmarillion
[Editorial note: For the sake of detail some parts of following text are added from other sources then the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’. These are indicated as seperate entities by a headline of their own and the lake of a chapter number. To avoid redundancy in some places part of the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’ proper were excluded from the text. The chapters thus excluded are given in the list below with the replacements we did take up. Since from the ‘Great Tales’ are only fragments left to us the replacements are often amalgamated from parts of the ‘Great Tale’ and the chapter of the ‘Quetna Silmarillion’.

- 22 Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel -> replaced by “Narn Beren ion Barahir”
- 23 The Quest of the Silmaril -> replaced by Narn Beren ion Barahir”
- 24 The Quest of the Silmaril 2 -> replaced in part by “Narn Beren ion Barahir”
- 28 Of TúrinTurambar or Túrin the Hapless -> replaced by “Narn e·mbar Hador”
- 29 [Of Túrin and Glaurung] -> replaced by “Narn e·mbar Hador”
- 30 Of the Ruin of Doriath -> replaced in part by “Narn e·mbar Hador”
- 31 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin -> replaced by “Narn e·mbar Hador”

In the case of chapter “28 Of the Ruin of Doriath” we have taken up what could be found of the “Narn e·mbar Hador” into the body of the chapter of the “Quenta Silmarillion”.]
The chapter-structure would than lock like this:
Quote:
TRANSLATION FROM THE ELVISH
volume 1: THE ELDER DAYS

Ainulindale

Valaquenta

. Of the Valar
. Of the Maiar
. Of the Enemies


Quenta Silmarillion
. 1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
. 2 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles
Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim
… Of the Ents and the Eagles

. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves
. 4 Of Thingol and Melian
. 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
. 6 Of Finwë and Míriel
. 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
. 8 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
. 9 Of the Drakening of Valinor

Of the Rape of the Silmarils
. 10 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
. 11 Of the Flight of the Noldor
. 12 Of the Sindar
. 13 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
. 14 Of Men
. 15 Of the Siege of Angband
. 16 The Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin

Of Dagor Aglareb
. 17 Of Beleriand and its Realms
. 18 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
. 19 Of Maeglin
. 20 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand

Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
… Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain


Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
. Appendix: The Tale of Adanel

. 21 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

The Death of Fingolfin
… Of the Swarthy Men
… The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor


Narn Beren ion Barahir or Narn e·Dinúviel
. The Lay of Leithian
Of Thingol in Doriath
…… Of Lúthien the Beloved
…… Of Dairon Minstrel of Thingol
Of Morgoth & the Snaring of Gorlim
…… Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings
…… Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses
…… Of Gorlim Unhappy
Of Beren Son of Barahir & his Escape
Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath; but first is told of the Meeting of Melian and Thingol
…… Beren's meeting with Lúthien
Beren before Thingol
… Luthien's captivity in Doriath
… Beren in Nargothrond
… Beren and Felagund before Sauron
… Lúthien in Nargothrond
… The defeat of Sauron
… The attack by Celegorm and Curufin
… The disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband
… Fingolfin and Morgoth; the meeting with Carcharoth
… Beren and Luthien in Angband
… Escape from Angband


. 24 The Quest of the Silmaril 2
. 25 The Quest of the Silmaril 3
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
. 26 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos
The Choices of Lúthien

Narn e·mbar Hador
. Narn i Chîn Húrin or Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
The Childhood of Túrin
. 27 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
… The Departure of Túrin
… Túrin in Doriath
… Túrin among the Outlaws
… Of Mîm the Dwarf
… ?Of Dor-Cúrathol, the Land of Bow and Helm?
… ?Of Túrins Rescue by Beleg?
… ?Túrin in Nargothrond?
… The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin
… The coming of Túrin into Brethil
… The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
… Nienor in Brethil
… The Coming of Glaurung
… The Death of Glaurung
… The Death of Túrin


. 30 Of the Ruin of Doriath
.The Wanderings of Húrin
…… The Shadow falls on Brethil
…… Húrin in Nargothrond
…… Húrin in Doriath
The Nauglamír Necklace of the Dwarves ‘Sigil Elu-neath’ Necklace of the Woe of Thingol

. Narn en·Êl or Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar Orthad en·Êl
… [I]Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

. 32 Of the Voyage of Eärendil
. 33 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath

Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
… Of the Passing of the Elves
… The Second Prophecy of Mandos
That might seem a bit chaotic but in the moment it is the best I can come up with. Please feel free to disagree with me .

Respectfully
Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 01-23-2005 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Added the chapters of the Ainulidalë / Added The Choices of Lúthien which I have overlock in my preivous research
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Old 02-08-2005, 12:36 PM   #72
lindil
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Looks great Fin.
ONe question comes to mind; what of the Tale of the Druedain in UT?
It is clearly 1st Age narrative but is equally clearly tangential to the Silmarillion and the great Tales. If it were included perhaps between Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
. Appendix: The Tale of Adanel
and
. 21 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

but, as I wrote that I recall that from the clues in the text it really should be later as Orcs are all around Brethil, which I think is not only post Braggolach, but maybe post Nirnaeth as well. THe text may be more explicit, I will have to check.
But putting it any later would be I think extremely awkward as the events after the Nirnaeth all move very specifically towards the Ruin of Gondolin,Doriath and Nargothrond.
--------------------------
Great work, if others agree in principle a simplified version should be put in the intro thread to replace the old outline.
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Last edited by lindil; 02-08-2005 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 02-09-2005, 04:31 AM   #73
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This is one of the instances were I find a purely chronological ordering of the tales doubtfull. In my mind of an edited version of "Of Dwarves and Men" will form an essential part of the volume II: Númenor and the History of the North-West of Middle-Earth of Translation from the Elvish.
But that can be debated. If parts of the essay are used in the Beleriandic tales, it would be hard hold the rest together. In view of this, it might be that we are not able to use the essay as a unity.
In addition this depends as well on other undecided issues: If we reform the charachter of Sadog in the "Túrin-Saga" to a Drûg as Tolkien once proposed, than we need the intorduction of the Drûg given in "Of Dwarves and Men" somewhere in the emigration of the Edain into Beleriand.
If we use manish parts of "Of Dwarves and Men" in the Belerandic part of our work than I think the best place would be a bit earlier. As fare as I know, we have no indication when and where the Story of the Faithful Stone happened. It could have been so early that its place would be Dor-Caranthir and not Brethil. Thus I would place it with the rest of the manish part of the Essay. Even if its time could be determined and it is than told as a fetch-ahead.
This would produce a structer like this, but the actule editing of the text might prove that to be to much repeating:
Quote:
TRANSLATION FROM THE ELVISH
volume 1: THE ELDER DAYS
...
...
...
Quenta Silmarillion
...
...
...
. 20 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand
Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
… Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain
… The Atani and their Languages
… The Drúedain (Púkel-men)

…… The Faithful Stone

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
. Appendix: The Tale of Adanel
...
...
...
I think from what we lift out of the essay it can not stand as a chapter of itself. Thus it I would add the sub-chapters of the essy as sub-chapters to the chapter 20 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand of the Quenta Silmarillion. And I would then follow the Essay as fare as the comparison of Drûgs and Hobbits. (page 310 The Drûgs that are met ... not even their closest friends among the Folk of Haleth were welcomed there). The following part of the Essay about Hobbits can not be used in the Beleriandic part. If we can mange it, I would introduce it in the Thrid Age material.

Respectfully
Findegil
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Old 02-09-2005, 09:33 AM   #74
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Much of this issue is predicated upon a discussion (yet to be had) concerning what we're going to do with the Second and Third Age material.

An anachronistic or out of sequence account of the Faithful Stone (or the other short story given in this text) would not necessarily be so bad. The narrative often steps out of the moment, as it were, and refers to events that have not yet happened.

As for Sador/Sadog: I have long been convinced that we cannot implement the proposed alteration of the character to a Drug. Still, a presentation of all the valid material as a single narrative is one of the main goals of this project, so there is something to be said for placing this material in the First Age, irrespective of its original context in "Of Dwarves and Men".
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Old 02-09-2005, 01:15 PM   #75
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Since in "Of Dwarves and Men" the point of view is some times clearly the storyteller from the out side, we can not use the text completly. Some parts such as the discussion that the production of sheet of the book of Marzarbul is driving the issue to far most go.
Actually I think that such small additions as the one discussed now must realy wait for the text to be produced. The goal of my post about the chapter structer was much more general then the detailed discussion that we do now. For bits that we can add in without skipping material from the Quenta Silmarillion I do not see a big problem in the chapter structur, we can either incooperat them into the Quenta Silmarillion or show them as a seperate tale e.g. the Athrabeth and 12 Of the Sindar.
The problem I saw and that I wanted to discuss was the incooperation of the "Great Tales" for which we clearly have to skip chapters from the Quenta Silmarillion (even if some of these chapter would realy be only virtually existing or hopelessly outdated). Thus I see 2 main issues for this discussion in the moment:
1. Do we a) present the chapters of the Quenta Silmarillion as such or do we b) simply tell the tale of th elder day without indication of its source or tradition?
2. How do we present the wild mixture of texts at the end of the First Age?

My chapterstructure did answer question 1 with a) and tried to stick to that answere in question 2 as well. This might seem a bit confusing, but I think in the actuell "book" (or rather document) we could make that clearer by the use of toplines altering from left to right which include on side the chapter name and on the other the Great Tale to which that chapter belongs.

Beside that, I found that some minor points need a discussion which could be done here as well:
1. Earlier there had been the idea to split the chapter Tuor and the Fall of Gondoiln in two parts to deal with the whol story in a more chronological way. This was never mentioned again. I do not support this in any way, and wanted only bury that idea once and for all.
2. In the Doriath chapter we had some differgent ideas of subheadings and chapter breaks. I think that such an overview of what is to come would be the right place to discuss this issue as well.
3. As it seems to me, that we have already missed a chapterbreak between the "Of the Voyage of Earendil" and "Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath". But I am at a lose to insert it with out a consens.

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Old 02-09-2005, 09:13 PM   #76
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F posted:Actually I think that such small additions as the one discussed now must realy wait for the text to be produced.

L:agreed

F: 1. Do we a) present the chapters of the Quenta Silmarillion as such or do we b) simply tell the tale of th elder day without indication of its source or tradition?


L: Chapters are I think an important aspect of continuity w/ 2ilm 77/99.
However small editorial insertions indicationg major incorporations could be simple and helpful.

2. How do we present the wild mixture of texts at the end of the First Age?

L: Follow Christophers chapter lead w/ additions for Hurin's wandering. Hurin in Brethil I think was CJRT's name ofr the section of wanderings that was written.

F:1. Earlier there had been the idea to split the chapter Tuor and the Fall of Gondoiln in two parts to deal with the whol story in a more chronological way. This was never mentioned again. I do not support this in any way, and wanted only bury that idea once and for all.

I still think a break could occur after Tuor's introduction to Gondolin, essentially where the OF Tuor and his comeing to G's notes fritter out.

There is a natural story break there as he settles down in GOndolin and comes into his manhood. Essentially nothing major happens till he marries Idril, while many things, such as Turin's and Nargothronds demise are.

So I am for it, the remaining material really constitutes The Fall of Gondolin [ and a short preface], which happens 7 years after Tuor reaches the City. This also keeps our hodgepodge away from the nearly seamless UT Tuor, which is so polished imo, that it deserves not to be too closely paired w/ our Frankenstein FoG. Of course Fin, your case against it may persuade...

F: 3. As it seems to me, that we have already missed a chapterbreak between the "Of the Voyage of Earendil" and "Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath". But I am at a lose to insert it with out a consens.

L: a natural split - seems to me.







2. In the Doriath chapter we had some differgent ideas of subheadings and chapter breaks. I think that such an overview of what is to come would be the right place to discuss this issue as well.
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Old 02-19-2006, 07:54 AM   #77
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Just an afterthought that came to my mind while I prepared the text of the finished Narn-chapter:

As it stands now we have two chapter headlines that are not in anyway driven from Tolkien or his son:

29 [Of Túrin and Glaurung]
This one is only given in the editorial note suggested by me for the beginning of the Quenta Silmarillion. But seeing what Tolkien did in the Tale of Beren and Luthien I think it is wrong to invent some chapter title for this purpose. I would rather change it to:
28 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapless
29 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapless 2


Of Dor-Cúrathol
Thinking longer about this I feel that this is not needed at all. It is followed by two very long chapters both named after the protagonist most prominent beside Túrin: Beleg and Failivrin and it is preceded by a chapter named in the same way: Of Mîm the Dwarf. Taking into account that all the history of Dor-Cúrathol is bound up with Mîm and that in the case of the chapter Failivrin we have also a very long stretched introduction before ever Finduilas appeared, I think it is sufficient to take all the history of Dor-Cúrathol under the title Of Mîm the Dwarf. That chapter would then start with the first meeting of Túrin and Mîm and would end with Mîm flying from Amon Rudh and Beleg's prophecy: ‘The vengeance of the house of Hador will find you yet!’


Since some other changes have been introduced by working out the Narn-chapter, I will give the purposed chapter-structure here anew:
Quote:
TRANSLATION FROM THE ELVISH
volume 1: THE ELDER DAYS

Ainulindale
. The Music of the Ainur
. Here are the words of Pengoloð concerning the Coming of the Valar.


Valaquenta
. Of the Valar
. Of the Maiar
. Of the Enemies


Quenta Silmarillion
[Editorial note: For the sake of detail some parts of following text are added from other sources then the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’. These are indicated as seperate entities by a headline of their own and the lake of a chapter number. To avoid redundancy in some places part of the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’ proper were excluded from the text. The chapters thus excluded are given in the list below with the replacements we did take up. Since from the ‘Great Tales’ are only fragments left to us the replacements are often amalgamated from parts of the ‘Great Tale’ and the chapter of the ‘Quetna Silmarillion’.

- 22 Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel -> replaced by 'Narn Beren ion Barahir'
- 23 The Quest of the Silmaril -> replaced by 'Narn Beren ion Barahir'
- 24 The Quest of the Silmaril 2 -> replaced in part by 'Narn Beren ion Barahir'
- 28 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapless -> replaced by 'Narn e·mbar Hador'
- 29 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapless 2 -> replaced by 'Narn e·mbar Hador'
- 30 Of the Ruin of Doriath -> replaced in part by 'Narn e·mbar Hador'
- 31 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin -> replaced by 'Narn e·mbar Hador'

In the case of chapter '30 Of the Ruin of Doriath' we have taken up what could be found of the 'Narn e·mbar Hador' into the body of the chapter of the 'Quenta Silmarillion'.]

. 1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
. 2 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles
Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim
… Of the Ents and the Eagles

. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves
. 4 Of Thingol and Melian
. 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
. 6 Of Finwë and Míriel
. 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
. 8 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
. 9 Of the Drakening of Valinor

Of the Rape of the Silmarils
. 10 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
. 11 Of the Flight of the Noldor
. 12 Of the Sindar
. 13 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
. 14 Of Men
. 15 Of the Siege of Angband
. 16 The Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin

Of Dagor Aglareb
. 17 Of Beleriand and its Realms
. 18 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
. 19 Of Maeglin
. 20 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand

Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
… Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain


Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
. Appendix: The Tale of Adanel

. 21 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

The Death of Fingolfin
… Of the Swarthy Men
… The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor


Narn Beren ion Barahir or Narn e·Dinúviel
. The Lay of Leithian
Of Thingol in Doriath
…… Of Lúthien the Beloved
…… Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol
Of Morgoth & the Snaring of Gorlim
…… Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings
…… Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses
…… Of Gorlim Unhappy
Of Beren Son of Barahir & his Escape
Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath; but first is told of the Meeting of Melian and Thingol
…… Beren's meeting with Lúthien
Beren before Thingol
… Luthien's captivity in Doriath
… Beren in Nargothrond
… Beren and Felagund before Sauron
… Lúthien in Nargothrond
… The defeat of Sauron
… The attack by Celegorm and Curufin
… The disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband
… Fingolfin and Morgoth; the meeting with Carcharoth
… Beren and Luthien in Angband
… Escape from Angband

. 24 The Quest of the Silmaril 2
. 25 The Quest of the Silmaril 3:
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
. 26 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos
The Choices of Lúthien

Narn e·mbar Hador
. Narn i Chîn Húrin or Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
The Childhood of Túrin
. 27 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
… The Departure of Túrin
… Túrin in Doriath
… Túrin among the Outlaws
… Of Mîm the Dwarf
… Beleg
… Failivrin
… The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin
… The coming of Túrin into Brethil
… The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
… Nienor in Brethil
… The Coming of Glaurung
… The Death of Glaurung
… The Death of Túrin


. 30 Of the Ruin of Doriath
The Wanderings of Húrin
…… The Shadow falls on Brethil
…… Húrin in Nargothrond
…… Húrin in Doriath
The Nauglamír Necklace of the Dwarves ‘Sigil Elu-neath’ Necklace of the Woe of Thingol

. Narn en·Êl or Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar Orthad en·Êl
Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

. 32 Of the Voyage of Eärendil
. 33 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath

Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
… Of the Passing of the Elves
… The Second Prophecy of Mandos
Respectfully
Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 01-31-2007 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 01-31-2007, 09:03 PM   #78
Maédhros
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White Tree Look at what has been done

It is interesting to now look back at the beginning of the Project and see how far we have advanced:

Posted by Aiwendil in 2001
Quote:
My main concern regards the end of the Silm.: the Fall of Gondolin, the Ruin of Doriath, and the Voyage of Eärendil. The first of these could be fairly well compiled from the later Tuor and the lost tale. This would require a good bit of editorial alteration for consistency of plot as well as of style, but is feasible. The second, the Ruin of Doriath, is where real problems begin to pop up. About the first third of this exists in the long, in depth version, The Wanderings of Hurin. From the end of this all the way through the end of the book, though, there is nothing but the old Quenta Noldorinwa of 1930 (and a slightly expanded 1937 version of the end of 'Eärendil'). It would be quite a discrepancy to leap from such a fully formed narrative to such a brief summary - I think this is largely why Christopher basically ignored the Wanderings of Húrin and much of the Narn in the 77. The Lost Tales is no help here, as Tolkien didn't even begin drafting the tale of Eärendil. The only ways to handle this would be to drastically compress the Narn, Gondolin, etc., or to expand Earendil and parts of the Ruin of Doriath.
The main problems that we thought at the beginning of the project, have been dealt with and the chapters finished.

We in 2007 have completed from the Beren and Lúthien saga all the way to the end. Wow. In retrospect, I think that it has been a great effort by all of the members that have participated in one time or the other in this project.
A well deserved congratulations to us all.
You know, I have a file that Findegil sent me, and the Translations from the Elvish version that we dreamed of, is not that far off.

I only wished that Lindil would see what has happened to his idea to create a more complete Silmarillion. Cheers.
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Old 04-24-2007, 10:39 AM   #79
lindil
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Quote:
I only wished that Lindil would see what has happened to his idea to create a more complete Silmarillion. Cheers.
have no fear! I peep in semi-regularly, and even though it has gone in a direction quite different than I would have intended [replacing the RoD for instance] I am in no way less proud of the core of you folks who have stuck it out.

I could gush for awhile about it, but make no mistake, I am extremely glad that I did not bow out till it was in good [no matter how few the number] hands.

Hopefully in the fall things will slow down enough that I can really go over things in detail.

It also taught me some well needed lessons about followthrough and biting off more...[sigh]

but I did what i could and am thrilled that you folks have so systematically and carefully tackled the most thorny parts.

Perhaps no one else who has not done it can know how painfully detailish such a project can get, and the spirit w/ wich it was all done no doubt has made JRRT as proud as the Estate is/was annoyed.

If there were awards for internet Tolkien Scholarship, you folks would [ok should] undoubtedly get first place. Having labored over the outline, the principles [w/ Aiwendil] and FoG I do remember just how tedious it all is.

I used to picture that after the new text had been established I pictured a 'literary smoothing out' of stylistic discrepancies, I may well plug back into if time and resources permit in the future, as well as involvement in drafting a more or less continual narrative of the 2nd and pre-Lotr 3rd Age.

Of course how you even want to handle all that is now the groups decision.

If and till then, have no doubt, I am probably your biggest fan.
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:22 AM   #80
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With the publication of The Children of Húrin we have inroduced some changes in the Narn which also effect the chapter structer. These changes have not been approved, but in the case of the chapter headlines there is no much doubt. I give the chapter structer here in full:
Quote:
TRANSLATION FROM THE ELVISH
volume 1: THE ELDER DAYS

Ainulindale
. The Music of the Ainur
. Here are the words of Pengoloð concerning the Coming of the Valar.


Valaquenta
. Of the Valar
. Of the Maiar
. Of the Enemies


Quenta Silmarillion
[Editorial note: For the sake of detail some parts of following text are added from other sources then the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’. These are indicated as seperate entities by a headline of their own and the lake of a chapter number. To avoid redundancy in some places part of the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’ proper were excluded from the text. The chapters thus excluded are given in the list below with the replacements we did take up. Since from the ‘Great Tales’ are only fragments left to us the replacements are often amalgamated from parts of the ‘Great Tale’ and the chapter of the ‘Quetna Silmarillion’.

- 22 Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel -> replaced by 'Narn Beren ion Barahir'
- 23 The Quest of the Silmaril -> replaced by 'Narn Beren ion Barahir'
- 24 The Quest of the Silmaril 2 -> replaced in part by 'Narn Beren ion Barahir'
- 28 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapless -> replaced by 'Narn e·mbar Hador'
- 29 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapless 2 -> replaced by 'Narn e·mbar Hador'
- 30 Of the Ruin of Doriath -> replaced in part by 'Narn e·mbar Hador'
- 31 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin -> replaced by 'Narn e·mbar Hador'

In the case of chapter '30 Of the Ruin of Doriath' we have taken up what could be found of the 'Narn e·mbar Hador' into the body of the chapter of the 'Quenta Silmarillion'.]

. 1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
. 2 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles
Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim
… Of the Ents and the Eagles

. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves
. 4 Of Thingol and Melian
. 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
. 6 Of Finwë and Míriel
. 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
. 8 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
. 9 Of the Drakening of Valinor

Of the Rape of the Silmarils
. 10 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
. 11 Of the Flight of the Noldor
. 12 Of the Sindar
. 13 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
. 14 Of Men
. 15 Of the Siege of Angband
. 16 The Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin

Of Dagor Aglareb
. 17 Of Beleriand and its Realms
. 18 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
. 19 Of Maeglin
. 20 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand

Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
… Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain


Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
. Appendix: The Tale of Adanel

. 21 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

The Death of Fingolfin
… Of the Swarthy Men
… The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor


Narn Beren ion Barahir or Narn e·Dinúviel
. The Lay of Leithian
Of Thingol in Doriath
…… Of Lúthien the Beloved
…… Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol
Of Morgoth & the Snaring of Gorlim
…… Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings
…… Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses
…… Of Gorlim Unhappy
Of Beren Son of Barahir & his Escape
Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath; but first is told of the Meeting of Melian and Thingol
…… Beren's meeting with Lúthien
Beren before Thingol
… Luthien's captivity in Doriath
… Beren in Nargothrond
… Beren and Felagund before Sauron
… Lúthien in Nargothrond
… The defeat of Sauron
… The attack by Celegorm and Curufin
… The disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband
… Fingolfin and Morgoth; the meeting with Carcharoth
… Beren and Luthien in Angband
… Escape from Angband

. 24 The Quest of the Silmaril 2
. 25 The Quest of the Silmaril 3:
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
. 26 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos
The Choices of Lúthien

Narn e·mbar Hador
. Narn i Chîn Húrin or Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
The Tale of the Children of Húrin
…… Of the Union of Maeðros
The Childhood of Túrin
. 27 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad, The Battel of Unnumbered Tears
The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
… The Departure of Túrin
… Túrin in Doriath
… Túrin among the Outlaws
… Of Mîm the Dwarf
… The Land of Bow and Helm
… The Death of Beleg
… Faelivrin
… Túrin in Nargothrond
… The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin
… The coming of Túrin into Brethil
… The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
… Niënor in Brethil
… The Coming of Glaurung
… The Death of Glaurung
… The Death of Túrin


. 30 Of the Ruin of Doriath
The Wanderings of Húrin
…… The Shadow falls on Brethil
…… Húrin in Nargothrond
…… Húrin in Doriath
The Nauglamír Necklace of the Dwarves ‘Sigil Elu-neath’ Necklace of the Woe of Thingol

. Narn en·Êl or Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar Orthad en·Êl
Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

. 32 Of the Voyage of Eärendil
. 33 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath

Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
… Of the Passing of the Elves
… The Second Prophecy of Mandos
Respectfully
Findegil
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