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Old 01-27-2019, 07:41 PM   #1
R.R.J Tolkien
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Was Gandalf a Valar?

I believe a mistake was made by Christopher Tolkien. I always thought Gandalf a maiar from reading the sillmarillion as Olorin was a Maiar. However, of course , our sillmarillion was not published by J.R.R Tolkien but Christopher and I believe Tolkien left us with the idea of two separate olorins in Valinor. And after reading unfinished Tales [Post LOTR writing/essays on the istari] I think J.R.R left the question open but also indicated Gandalf was valar I think his power justified that position as well.


“They [Valar] sent members of their own high order [the istari], but clad in bodies as of men.”
-Unfinished Tales the Istari


This above passage of could perhaps be understood as a maiar as the same order as valar but it seems to go against the text. That in fact is how Christopher understood it to mean valar. Christopher noticed this “mistake” of Gandalf being a valar. Yet it came from later Tolkien writings [post lotr] and Christopher's counter and proof it was a “mistake” was his version of the published sillmarillion. Than we have this text making a better case


“Who was "Gandalf"? it is said in the latter days it was believed by many of the “faithful” that Gandalf was the last appearance of Manwe himself...I do not know the truth of the matter, and if i did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than gandalf was”
-Unfinished tales the Istari

So Tolkien did not outright say Gandalf was Manwe [a valar] nor deny it. The argument that Gandalf was a maiar comes from his identification as Olorin. However even here does not prove him a maiar.


“That Gandalf said that his name “in the west” had been Olorin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an Incognito, a mere by name. I do not [of course] know the truth of the matter.”
-Unfinished tales


Thus I think Tolkien left it open to what order Gandalf was but I think indicated he was a valar.
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Old 01-28-2019, 06:50 AM   #2
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Ooh. Well, I think Tolkien mostly thought of Gandalf as a Maia, but there's some really interesting concepts to tease out in that 'mostly'.

To address your second point first, you reference this passage, from an undated document (on the back of the brief 'choosing of the Istari' story, which explicitly has Gandalf talking to Manwe):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales: The Istari
Manw, however, even after the Downfall of Nmenor and the breaking of the old world, even in the Third Age when the Blessed Realm had been removed from the "Circles of the World," was still not a mere observer. It is clearly from Valinor that the emissaries came who were called the Istari (or Wizards), and among them Gandalf, who proved to be the director and coordinator both attack and defence.

Who was "Gandalf?" It is said that in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the "Faithful" of that time that "Gandalf" was the last appearance of Manw himself, before his final withdrawal to the watchtower of Taniquetil. (That Gandalf said that his name "in the West" had been Olrin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an incognito, a mere by-name.) I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was. But I think it was not so. Manw will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. 8 To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Enw. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olrin was his name. But of Olrin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf.

Will thou learn the lore / that was long secret
of the Five that came / from a far country?
One only returned. / Others never again
under Men's dominion / Middle-earth shall seek
until Dagor Dagorath / and the Doom cometh.
How hast thou heard it: / the hidden counsel
of the Lord of the West / in the land of Aman?
The long roads are lost / that led thither,
and to mortal Men / Manw speaks not.
From the West-that-was / a wind bore it
to the sleeper's ear, / in the silences
under night-shadow, / when news is brought
from lands forgotten / and lost ages
over seas of years / to the searching thought.
Not all are forgotten / by the Elder King.
Sauron he saw / at a slow menace ....
To my eye, the most interesting thing about this is the idea of a 'Gandalf cult'. The dating 'in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom)' means that this is actually a concept associated with The New Shadow! Much like Numenor, Tolkien foresaw the emergence not just of 'a centre of secret Satanistic religion' (Letters 256), but of a 'Faithful' group who mythologised the Elder Days, right down to the War of the Ring.

This even suggests that the poem is in fact a hymn, chanted or sung by the Faithful. Looked at that way, with 'the lore that was long secret' and 'the hidden counsel' sound like a full-on Mystery Religion to me, and the verse actually tells us how the secret lore was received: 'a wind bore it to the sleeper's ear, in the silences under night-shadow, when news is brought... to the searching thought.'

So it's clear that a Numenorean group thought of Gandalf as Manwe, on the basis of dream visions (even if you ignore my wilder surmises). But what if the 'members of their own high order' passage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales: The Istari
For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.

Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five.
(Note well the last sentence. Not only were there possibly other messengers 'of their own high order' to different locales, but the Five were only the chiefs of the Istari.)

I can see four possible readings:

1. Tolkien meant the order of the Ainur, not the Valar. Booo-ring!

2. This passage recalls the older version of the Valar, back when the Children of the Valar were still a thing. At that point, there were plenty of Vala-breed folk running around, so sending a handful of them over to Middle-earth wouldn't make a dent. But I think this passage probably post-dates that by decades.

3. 'The Valar' are the canonical fourteen, and the 'chiefs' are five of the Aratar - Manwe, Varda, Aule, Yavanna, Ulmo, Orome, Mandos, Nienna. But which five?
3.1. Saruman has to be Aule. He's the craftsman, there's no real alternative.
3.2. Radagast must be either Orome or Yavanna, the Valar of nature. With Yavanna more focused on plants, I would suspect Orome.
3.3-4. It would make sense for the Blue Wizards, who head off together, to be a natural pair. With Aule already out of the way, that would make them either the sibling group Mandos & Nienna, or the married Manwe & Varda. (Note that, unlike Radagast, there is nothing to indicate that they were male in either this text or LotR - they came as Men, the race, not men, the gender.)
3.5. And Gandalf? As the natural leader, he could well be Manwe - but as the Istar of comfort, he could also be Nienna. Either way, we're left with Yavanna, Ulmo, and either Mandos or Varda holding down the fort at home; I'm most inclined towards the last being Varda, since Mandos has a capable deputy in his wife (making Gandalf Manwe).

4. While Tolkien isn't too terribly sexist, his creations' ideas of authority are. So perhaps 'the chiefs' of the Istari means 'the men', and each was accompanied by his wife? This leads us to a slightly different listing:
4.1. Saruman is still Aule, here accompanied by Yavanna. She may then have gone off to try and find the Entwives. This may explain why Saruman/Aule set up shop near the Ents (so she could find him), but also why he was so angry about them (because they were essentially created to spite him).
4.2. With Yavanna out of the way, Radagast must be Orome, accompanied by Vana. Where would the Lady of Flowers have taken herself off to? The part of Middle-earth most associated with flowers is probably the Vale of Anduin, which has both the Gladden (= iris) Fields and Beorn's bees. It's also right next to Mirkwood, where Radagast/Orome hung out.
4.3-4. The Blue Wizards still need to be a natural pair, and in this case you can't do better than Irmo Lorien and Namo Mandos, the Feanturi themselves. Travelling into Sauronian territory, they're perfectly equipped to influence possible friends of the West (by dreams and visions), and to deal with Sauron's death-cults (like he set up in Numenor). They also take with them Vaire, whose speciality is history - ie, truth, to teach those who have been lied to - and Este, who can bring rest and healing to those faithful to the Valar who are suffering under Sauron's rule.
4.5. Then who is Gandalf? Ulmo has no wife, and would make a decent candidate, except that he's never been shy about revealing his power, and has always preferred to stay out of the Valar's mad schemes. Tulkas we can probably write off. And so, once again, we come round to Gandalf as Manwe, and at his side Varda Elentari, the Elbereth of the elves. While her husband is off talking to the little folk of the world, I imagine her slipping into places like Lorien and Rivendell unseen, simply an elderly woman no-one glances twice at... except that in her wake, the stars seem brighter, and the songs of the elves all the sweeter.

I... didn't actually expect to wind up with Gandalf as Manwe every time; I was assuming based on the name Olorin that he was more likely to be Lorien. But Manwe fits a lot better with the rest of the details, so there we are.

hS
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:04 AM   #3
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Interesting post/topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
1. Tolkien meant the order of the Ainur, not the Valar. Booo-ring!
I also think he used "Valar" sometimes in a poetic or figurative sense to refer to the Valar and Maiar collectively.

Professor Tolkien did also say in Letter 183 that Sauron was "Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order", so if Gandalf is a Vala then Sauron and Saruman are too. In Letter 153 [CORRECTION: 156] he says that Sauron was "a lesser member of the race of Valar", although admittedly that could have been a shortcut to make an already complex narrative overview more digestible for his correspondent Rob Murray.

Sometimes I think it's not necessary to be too rigid about the delineation, really. Trying to determine what distinguished, say, Nessa from a prominent Maia like Ilmar or Oss seems to involve role, responsibility and position as well as any sense of "potency". Perhaps being a Maia is more like a job than a "species"?

Wikipedia claims that in "Words, Phrases and Passages", which was published in Parma Eldalamberon 17, Professor Tolkien stated that "Maia is the name of the Kin of the Valar, but especially of those of lesser power than the 9 great rulers." If this is the case, perhaps the distinction is really quite hazy.
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:30 AM   #4
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No no no no no.


The Valar and Maiar are of the same order: they are both Ainur who were created before the world and who came into the world when it was made real.


So any statement about "of the same order" as the Valar can be taken as also including the Maiar.


The only difference between a Vala and a Maia (note the correct singular forms) is degree of power. To quote from the Valaquenta:
Quote:
Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time .... The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar.... With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers.
Vala/Valar and Maia/Maiar are not taxonomic classifications; they merely describe a placing in a hierarchy based on degree of power, but Valar and Maiar are otherwise the same class of being.


What was Gandalf?
Quote:
Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves; Tharkun to the Dwarves; Olrin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incanus; in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
So he was, or at least claimed to be, a being named Olrin, but what was Olrin?
Quote:
Wisest of the Maiar was Olrin .... In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.
The important thing to realise is that this text was not written by CJRT; the original Valaquenta text is given in HoMe X: Morgoth's Ring, and likewise identifies Olrin as one of the Maiar.
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Old 01-28-2019, 03:54 PM   #5
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It is a matter of semantics. Valar and Maiar are of the same order; however, the Valar are specifically listed and there are 14 (with perhaps a 15th if one counts Melkor), whereas the Maiar are multiform and are as disparate as the Istari and the Balrogs.
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Old 01-28-2019, 04:09 PM   #6
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In Glorfindel I (Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth) for example, the word Maiar is footnoted by Tolkien: "That angelic order to which Gandalf originally belonged: lesser in power and authority than the Valar, but of the same nature . . ."

In the same text (I) Gandalf is referred to as Gandalf-Olorin.
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Old 01-28-2019, 07:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galin View Post
In Glorfindel I (Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth) for example, the word Maiar is footnoted by Tolkien: "That angelic order to which Gandalf originally belonged: lesser in power and authority than the Valar, but of the same nature . . ."

In the same text (I) Gandalf is referred to as Gandalf-Olorin.

I will have to read last writings and I will be ordering it soon to comment further. This is from a footnote and not the main text says something to me. This might not be cannon to me.
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhagain View Post
No no no no no.


The Valar and Maiar are of the same order: they are both Ainur who were created before the world and who came into the world when it was made real.


So any statement about "of the same order" as the Valar can be taken as also including the Maiar.


The only difference between a Vala and a Maia (note the correct singular forms) is degree of power. To quote from the Valaquenta:
Vala/Valar and Maia/Maiar are not taxonomic classifications; they merely describe a placing in a hierarchy based on degree of power, but Valar and Maiar are otherwise the same class of being.


What was Gandalf?
So he was, or at least claimed to be, a being named Olrin, but what was Olrin?
The important thing to realise is that this text was not written by CJRT; the original Valaquenta text is given in HoMe X: Morgoth's Ring, and likewise identifies Olrin as one of the Maiar.

I will dig into it more [just brought it back to the library i will be buying a copy soon] but it seemed pretty clear to refer to him as a valar [not just of the same order] witch is why Christopher wrote it was a mistake.

As for olorin

The argument of course that Gandalf was a maiar comes from his identification as Olrin. However even here does not prove him a maiar.

That Gandalf said that his name in the west had been Olrin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an Incognito, a mere by name. I do not [of course] know the truth of the matter.
-Unfinished tales
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zigr View Post
Interesting post/topic.


I also think he used "Valar" sometimes in a poetic or figurative sense to refer to the Valar and Maiar collectively.

Professor Tolkien did also say in Letter 183 that Sauron was "Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order", so if Gandalf is a Vala then Sauron and Saruman are too. In Letter 153 he says that Sauron was "a lesser member of the race of Valar",
I scanned 153 are you sure its in that letter?
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Ooh. Well, I think Tolkien mostly thought of Gandalf as a Maia, but there's some really interesting concepts to tease out in that 'mostly'.

To address your second point first, you reference this passage, from an undated document (on the back of the brief 'choosing of the Istari' story, which explicitly has Gandalf talking to Manwe):

To my eye, the most interesting thing about this is the idea of a 'Gandalf cult'. The dating 'in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom)' means that this is actually a concept associated with The New Shadow! Much like Numenor, Tolkien foresaw the emergence not just of 'a centre of secret Satanistic religion' (Letters 256), but of a 'Faithful' group who mythologised the Elder Days, right down to the War of the Ring.

This even suggests that the poem is in fact a hymn, chanted or sung by the Faithful. Looked at that way, with 'the lore that was long secret' and 'the hidden counsel' sound like a full-on Mystery Religion to me, and the verse actually tells us how the secret lore was received: 'a wind bore it to the sleeper's ear, in the silences under night-shadow, when news is brought... to the searching thought.'

So it's clear that a Numenorean group thought of Gandalf as Manwe, on the basis of dream visions (even if you ignore my wilder surmises). But what if the 'members of their own high order' passage?

Interesting insight, but I did not see Gandalf speaking to Manwe. Where did you see that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
(Note well the last sentence. Not only were there possibly other messengers 'of their own high order' to different locales, but the Five were only the chiefs of the Istari.)

I can see four possible readings:

1. Tolkien meant the order of the Ainur, not the Valar. Booo-ring!

2. This passage recalls the older version of the Valar, back when the Children of the Valar were still a thing. At that point, there were plenty of Vala-breed folk running around, so sending a handful of them over to Middle-earth wouldn't make a dent. But I think this passage probably post-dates that by decades.

3. 'The Valar' are the canonical fourteen, and the 'chiefs' are five of the Aratar - Manwe, Varda, Aule, Yavanna, Ulmo, Orome, Mandos, Nienna. But which five?
3.1. Saruman has to be Aule. He's the craftsman, there's no real alternative.
3.2. Radagast must be either Orome or Yavanna, the Valar of nature. With Yavanna more focused on plants, I would suspect Orome.
3.3-4. It would make sense for the Blue Wizards, who head off together, to be a natural pair. With Aule already out of the way, that would make them either the sibling group Mandos & Nienna, or the married Manwe & Varda. (Note that, unlike Radagast, there is nothing to indicate that they were male in either this text or LotR - they came as Men, the race, not men, the gender.)
3.5. And Gandalf? As the natural leader, he could well be Manwe - but as the Istar of comfort, he could also be Nienna. Either way, we're left with Yavanna, Ulmo, and either Mandos or Varda holding down the fort at home; I'm most inclined towards the last being Varda, since Mandos has a capable deputy in his wife (making Gandalf Manwe).

4. While Tolkien isn't too terribly sexist, his creations' ideas of authority are. So perhaps 'the chiefs' of the Istari means 'the men', and each was accompanied by his wife? This leads us to a slightly different listing:
4.1. Saruman is still Aule, here accompanied by Yavanna. She may then have gone off to try and find the Entwives. This may explain why Saruman/Aule set up shop near the Ents (so she could find him), but also why he was so angry about them (because they were essentially created to spite him).
4.2. With Yavanna out of the way, Radagast must be Orome, accompanied by Vana. Where would the Lady of Flowers have taken herself off to? The part of Middle-earth most associated with flowers is probably the Vale of Anduin, which has both the Gladden (= iris) Fields and Beorn's bees. It's also right next to Mirkwood, where Radagast/Orome hung out.
4.3-4. The Blue Wizards still need to be a natural pair, and in this case you can't do better than Irmo Lorien and Namo Mandos, the Feanturi themselves. Travelling into Sauronian territory, they're perfectly equipped to influence possible friends of the West (by dreams and visions), and to deal with Sauron's death-cults (like he set up in Numenor). They also take with them Vaire, whose speciality is history - ie, truth, to teach those who have been lied to - and Este, who can bring rest and healing to those faithful to the Valar who are suffering under Sauron's rule.
4.5. Then who is Gandalf? Ulmo has no wife, and would make a decent candidate, except that he's never been shy about revealing his power, and has always preferred to stay out of the Valar's mad schemes. Tulkas we can probably write off. And so, once again, we come round to Gandalf as Manwe, and at his side Varda Elentari, the Elbereth of the elves. While her husband is off talking to the little folk of the world, I imagine her slipping into places like Lorien and Rivendell unseen, simply an elderly woman no-one glances twice at... except that in her wake, the stars seem brighter, and the songs of the elves all the sweeter.

I... didn't actually expect to wind up with Gandalf as Manwe every time; I was assuming based on the name Olorin that he was more likely to be Lorien. But Manwe fits a lot better with the rest of the details, so there we are.

hS


How are you copy pasting online from UT? let me in on your lore I wish to join. Did you find them online free? I found his letters.



Middle Earth Conspiracy Theory Gandalf was Manwe


I still need to read The Peoples of Middle-Earth before i make a conclusion. But i thought of a conspiracy theory. What if Gandalf was indeed Manwe. Manwe asked olorin to go and olorin was scarred and Manwe said it was the more reason he should go. But either Olorin refused or because he was scarred, Manwe stepped in and became Gandalf but because he wished not to reveal who he was [most well known and powerful valar besides morgoth and the purpose was to help the free people not fight for them as they would wish if they knew it was he] he used the incognito name of olorin since he was his desired servant.
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Old 01-28-2019, 08:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien View Post
I scanned 153 are you sure its in that letter?
My mistake. I should have said 156.
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Old 01-29-2019, 04:15 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galin View Post
In Glorfindel I (Last Writings, The Peoples of Middle-Earth) for example, the word Maiar is footnoted by Tolkien: "That angelic order to which Gandalf originally belonged: lesser in power and authority than the Valar, but of the same nature . . ."
This is of course the key point: regardless of how fun the Gandalf-Vala notion is, Tolkien was both clear and consistent that he wasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien View Post
Interesting insight, but I did not see Gandalf speaking to Manwe. Where did you see that?
Somewhere in Tolkien's files there is the most amazing sheet of paper. In UT, Christopher says 'On the reverse of the isolated page containing the narrative of the choice of the Istari by the Valar appears the following very remarkable note', and then gives the text I've used for my 'Gandalf cult' theory'. The 'narrative of the choice' is summarised earlier, and says this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales: The Istari
Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of a council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manw ("and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?"), at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. "Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aul, and Alatar, who was sent by Orom. Then Manw asked, where was Olrin ? And Olrin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manw would have of him. Manw replied that he wished Olrin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olrin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manw's choice). But Olrin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manw said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olrin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.

The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend.
I think you already noticed this, but that's Olorin speaking directly to Manwe. The trouble with your idea that Olorin isn't Gandalf, is that Olorin only exists in the narrative to be Gandalf. He's not a pre-existing character who was later equated with him - the name was first written down in LotR itself, and every other version is an attempt to explain it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien View Post
How are you copy pasting online from UT? let me in on your lore I wish to join. Did you find them online free? I found his letters.
^_^ I wouldn't actually be averse to typing these quotes out, but I Don't Have My Books On Me(TM), so it's easier to find a copy online. Simply Googling 'Unfinished Tales text' usually pops something up.

hS
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Old 01-29-2019, 04:19 PM   #13
Rhun charioteer
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I think the evidence is pretty clear Gandalf is a Maia, Maiar and Valar are both Ainur so they are the same "essence" or "group"
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Old 01-29-2019, 07:22 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
This is of course the key point: regardless of how fun the Gandalf-Vala notion is, Tolkien was both clear and consistent that he wasn't.



Somewhere in Tolkien's files there is the most amazing sheet of paper. In UT, Christopher says 'On the reverse of the isolated page containing the narrative of the choice of the Istari by the Valar appears the following very remarkable note', and then gives the text I've used for my 'Gandalf cult' theory'. The 'narrative of the choice' is summarised earlier, and says this:



I think you already noticed this, but that's Olorin speaking directly to Manwe. The trouble with your idea that Olorin isn't Gandalf, is that Olorin only exists in the narrative to be Gandalf. He's not a pre-existing character who was later equated with him - the name was first written down in LotR itself, and every other version is an attempt to explain it.



^_^ I wouldn't actually be averse to typing these quotes out, but I Don't Have My Books On Me(TM), so it's easier to find a copy online. Simply Googling 'Unfinished Tales text' usually pops something up.

hS

Yes it appears my conspiracy might not pan out very well. I refuse to give in so easy, more reading is needed.

As for manwe speaking to Olorin, that is ok with at least one possibility offered, that Manwe took his name as a incognito.
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