Did Galadriel & Nenya keep the Balrog from Moria out of Lothlorien? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iarhen · 03-10-2003, 05:16 PM

Because I think that Galadriel, with Nenya's power boost, kept the Balrog from invading Lorien and killing the elves that dwelt there.

But, did she and Nenya had the power to do it?

She had the power to keep Sauron out of Lorien... Both when he was in Dol Guldur and when he was in Mordor...

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-10-2003, 05:31 PM

Why would the Balrog have wanted to leave Moria?

Having flown (whether by wing or foot [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) from the War of Wrath, it made its hiding place in Moria and stayed there for many thousands of years, only coming out to slay a few Dwarves when the noise of their mining got too close and gave it a bit of a headache.

My understanding is that the Balrog owed no particular allegiance to Sauron, so there was no reason to come out to aid him (and it probably served Sauron's purpose anyway for it to remain in Moria). Since, with all those Orcs around, it probably felt pretty safe down there, I don't really see any reason why it would come out at all, let alone risk attacking a powerful Elven realm.

Rumil · 03-10-2003, 05:46 PM

Yeah the Balrog of Moria seems unduly agoraphobic. It never seems to have ventured out of Moria to the East or (as far as we know) to the West. Even when the orcs were being beaten at the battle of Azanulbizar the Balrog lurked back inside the mines.

Was it frightened of sunlight, or just keeping a low profile in case some of those nasty Valar types showed up again?

(You'd think it didn't want anyone to see its wings [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

Annunfuiniel · 03-11-2003, 01:52 AM

Yes, it really seems that balrogs weren't very keen to show themselves when their master -and that is Morgoth- wasn't around. For example during M's captivity in Valinor balrogs did the same thing as later did the Moria balrog; dwelt in the deepest and darkest places they could find and stayed quite unnoticed. They came out only after hearing their master's call.

So to the question; I believe that Galadriel could have defended Lorien (with Nenya) against the balrog if it had for some reason sneaked out of its nest. But it didn't.

I would imagine that balrogs weren't too fond of sunlight. It is said in the Silm that all Melkor's servants avoided, yes, even feared the sun like M himself. So I would think that if the balrog had come out it would have happened in the shadows of the night (oh, almost poetic... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]).

tifo_gcs · 03-11-2003, 06:00 AM

I don't see why the Balrog shouldn't have wanted to venture forth at some point. Especially after Sauron's return to Barad-Dur, and the tales of evil things stirring once again, his gathering of the forces of darkness, he must have known where the Balrog was, especially with the orcs also in Moria. Then one can only suppose that he left it to guard Moria. I don't believe that the Balrog would refuse the order of Sauron, Sauron having been Morgoth's right hand.
Given the time it took for Gandalf to finish off the Balrog, I think that had the Balrog tried to attack Lorien, which in plain military sense is stupid due to lack of any form of support, then a struggle between the Balrog and Galadriel ought to have left obvious traces in Lorien.
So I don't believe that the Balrog ever ventured outside of Moria after it settled down there, and why is anybody's guess

03-11-2003, 08:35 AM

Why would the Balrog risk attacking Lothlorein?

He wouldn't.

In the Silm. we see Elves fighting against Balrogs one on one (Like Fingon and Gothmog). Even if there was no ring what chance would a Balrog have against a whole army of Elves?

So, the balrog would have been destroyed had it dared an attack, ring or no ring.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-11-2003, 12:30 PM

Mind you, the Balrog would presumably have been able to enlist the Moria orcs in any attack on Lothlorien, or at least coerce them into accompanying him on an attack (although it would have to be done by night). And an attack on Lothlorien by an army of orcs led by a Balrog might have stood some chance of success.

No, I think that the Balrog just wasn't interested in events outside Moria. As I see it, he was only prompted to attack the Fellowship because he sensed the power of the Ring. Otherwise, why bother with them? No doubt he would have thought twice had he been aware that they were accompanied by a Maiar.

mark12_30 · 03-11-2003, 12:33 PM

You know, if he'd just put on a little more eyeliner he could have charmed them all out of the woods.

Ailios · 03-11-2003, 01:51 PM

Gandalf had to fight the balrog for several days even though he had an elven ring. I don't think Galadriel's ring would been enough to keep the Balrog out of Lorien. Rembember the Orcs that followed the Fellowship. They were slain by the Elves. The power of the ring could stop them from entering Lorien.

Lindril Arvilya · 03-11-2003, 02:07 PM

Not that this is to do with the original topic, but the Balrog is made of "shadow and flame", correct? And Lothlorien is made of trees. Correct? Now, wood + flame = ?
Not good for the Elves. Maybe this already crossed their minds, though. First Elvish Fire Brigade? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Sorry, upon closer look at my post, I realized it sounded like I didn't think Galadriel had her realm protected at all. Maybe the trees are fire-proof or something. That'd be useful.

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: Lindril Arvilya ]

Legolas · 03-11-2003, 05:04 PM

Quote:

I don't believe that the Balrog would refuse the order of Sauron, Sauron having been Morgoth's right hand.

Believe what you want, opinions can be wrong. The balrog is underneath Morgoth. He had no obligation to Sauron, unless he chose to observe him as Morgoth's heir to the Dark Throne. The wills of Sauron and Morgoth did not control their subjects without choice. Their armies had minds of their own and only chose to follow such orders. Tolkien said that even orcs could act outside of the will of the Dark Lord and rebel. Certainly, then, a balrog - one of the same fundamental kind - would be able to stand up to Sauron.

Still, I see no reason for the balrog to leave Moria. As I said in the other, similar topic, he only attacked when his space was invaded.

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

tifo_gcs · 03-12-2003, 05:05 AM

In that case, it boils down to the nature of a Balrog, whether it is independent or subservient in nature. While all living creatures have some semblances of free will and the element of choice, most evil creatures are kept in line by fear. And I can't think of anyone that doesn't fear Sauron, or his actions

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-12-2003, 07:46 AM

I think it suited Sauron's purposes to have the Balrog in Moria, at least until he started moving his armies into the attack. It helped make the Misty Mountains a formidable barrier, and he was aware that the Ring was in the Shire and, subsequently, in Rivendell. So there was no reason for Sauron to try to give orders to the Balrog at that stage.

Had the Balrog survived the Fellowship's passage through Moria, Sauron may well have tried to enlist him into assisting in the assault on Lothlorien, or possibly an attack on Rivendell. Whether he would have succeeded in persuading the Balrog to his cause is another matter. Quite possibly, he could have offered sufficient inducement for the Balrog to throw his lot in with him, but the Balrog may equally as well have refused, preferring to stay safely tucked up in Moria.

Either way, the Balrog would have had free will: whether to assist Sauron or not. It is not a foregone conclusion that he would have done. And if the Balrog had refused, there was not much that Sauron could have done about it. It's unlikely that he would have wanted to waste resources trying to teach the Balrog a lesson.

[ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

03-10-2003, 05:16 PM	#1
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	Did Galadriel & Nenya keep the Balrog from Moria out of Lothlorien? Because I think that Galadriel, with Nenya's power boost, kept the Balrog from invading Lorien and killing the elves that dwelt there. But, did she and Nenya had the power to do it? She had the power to keep Sauron out of Lorien... Both when he was in Dol Guldur and when he was in Mordor... __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

03-10-2003, 05:31 PM	#2
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,468	Why would the Balrog have wanted to leave Moria? Having flown (whether by wing or foot [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) from the War of Wrath, it made its hiding place in Moria and stayed there for many thousands of years, only coming out to slay a few Dwarves when the noise of their mining got too close and gave it a bit of a headache. My understanding is that the Balrog owed no particular allegiance to Sauron, so there was no reason to come out to aid him (and it probably served Sauron's purpose anyway for it to remain in Moria). Since, with all those Orcs around, it probably felt pretty safe down there, I don't really see any reason why it would come out at all, let alone risk attacking a powerful Elven realm. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

03-10-2003, 05:46 PM	#3
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Yeah the Balrog of Moria seems unduly agoraphobic. It never seems to have ventured out of Moria to the East or (as far as we know) to the West. Even when the orcs were being beaten at the battle of Azanulbizar the Balrog lurked back inside the mines. Was it frightened of sunlight, or just keeping a low profile in case some of those nasty Valar types showed up again? (You'd think it didn't want anyone to see its wings [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

03-11-2003, 01:52 AM	#4
Annunfuiniel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Something close like Shire Posts: 775	Yes, it really seems that balrogs weren't very keen to show themselves when their master -and that is Morgoth- wasn't around. For example during M's captivity in Valinor balrogs did the same thing as later did the Moria balrog; dwelt in the deepest and darkest places they could find and stayed quite unnoticed. They came out only after hearing their master's call. So to the question; I believe that Galadriel could have defended Lorien (with Nenya) against the balrog if it had for some reason sneaked out of its nest. But it didn't. I would imagine that balrogs weren't too fond of sunlight. It is said in the Silm that all Melkor's servants avoided, yes, even feared the sun like M himself. So I would think that if the balrog had come out it would have happened in the shadows of the night (oh, almost poetic... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). __________________ Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt.

03-11-2003, 06:00 AM	#5
tifo_gcs Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lyngby Posts: 71	I don't see why the Balrog shouldn't have wanted to venture forth at some point. Especially after Sauron's return to Barad-Dur, and the tales of evil things stirring once again, his gathering of the forces of darkness, he must have known where the Balrog was, especially with the orcs also in Moria. Then one can only suppose that he left it to guard Moria. I don't believe that the Balrog would refuse the order of Sauron, Sauron having been Morgoth's right hand. Given the time it took for Gandalf to finish off the Balrog, I think that had the Balrog tried to attack Lorien, which in plain military sense is stupid due to lack of any form of support, then a struggle between the Balrog and Galadriel ought to have left obvious traces in Lorien. So I don't believe that the Balrog ever ventured outside of Moria after it settled down there, and why is anybody's guess __________________ Forever True, Forever Blue

03-11-2003, 08:35 AM	#6
Michel Delving Guest Posts: n/a	Why would the Balrog risk attacking Lothlorein? He wouldn't. In the Silm. we see Elves fighting against Balrogs one on one (Like Fingon and Gothmog). Even if there was no ring what chance would a Balrog have against a whole army of Elves? So, the balrog would have been destroyed had it dared an attack, ring or no ring.

03-11-2003, 12:30 PM	#7
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,468	Mind you, the Balrog would presumably have been able to enlist the Moria orcs in any attack on Lothlorien, or at least coerce them into accompanying him on an attack (although it would have to be done by night). And an attack on Lothlorien by an army of orcs led by a Balrog might have stood some chance of success. No, I think that the Balrog just wasn't interested in events outside Moria. As I see it, he was only prompted to attack the Fellowship because he sensed the power of the Ring. Otherwise, why bother with them? No doubt he would have thought twice had he been aware that they were accompanied by a Maiar. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

03-11-2003, 12:33 PM	#8
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	You know, if he'd just put on a little more eyeliner he could have charmed them all out of the woods. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

03-11-2003, 01:51 PM	#9
Ailios Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Forochel Posts: 28	Gandalf had to fight the balrog for several days even though he had an elven ring. I don't think Galadriel's ring would been enough to keep the Balrog out of Lorien. Rembember the Orcs that followed the Fellowship. They were slain by the Elves. The power of the ring could stop them from entering Lorien. __________________ Ailios

03-11-2003, 02:07 PM	#10
Lindril Arvilya Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In a box at the end of Harrison Ford's street, with a pair of binoculars Posts: 336	Not that this is to do with the original topic, but the Balrog is made of "shadow and flame", correct? And Lothlorien is made of trees. Correct? Now, wood + flame = ? Not good for the Elves. Maybe this already crossed their minds, though. First Elvish Fire Brigade? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] Sorry, upon closer look at my post, I realized it sounded like I didn't think Galadriel had her realm protected at all. Maybe the trees are fire-proof or something. That'd be useful. [ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: Lindril Arvilya ] __________________ Neo, watch out! Trinity's going to steal your pants! Pants thief! Pants thief!

03-12-2003, 05:05 AM	#12
tifo_gcs Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lyngby Posts: 71	In that case, it boils down to the nature of a Balrog, whether it is independent or subservient in nature. While all living creatures have some semblances of free will and the element of choice, most evil creatures are kept in line by fear. And I can't think of anyone that doesn't fear Sauron, or his actions __________________ Forever True, Forever Blue

03-12-2003, 07:46 AM	#13
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,468	I think it suited Sauron's purposes to have the Balrog in Moria, at least until he started moving his armies into the attack. It helped make the Misty Mountains a formidable barrier, and he was aware that the Ring was in the Shire and, subsequently, in Rivendell. So there was no reason for Sauron to try to give orders to the Balrog at that stage. Had the Balrog survived the Fellowship's passage through Moria, Sauron may well have tried to enlist him into assisting in the assault on Lothlorien, or possibly an attack on Rivendell. Whether he would have succeeded in persuading the Balrog to his cause is another matter. Quite possibly, he could have offered sufficient inducement for the Balrog to throw his lot in with him, but the Balrog may equally as well have refused, preferring to stay safely tucked up in Moria. Either way, the Balrog would have had free will: whether to assist Sauron or not. It is not a foregone conclusion that he would have done. And if the Balrog had refused, there was not much that Sauron could have done about it. It's unlikely that he would have wanted to waste resources trying to teach the Balrog a lesson. [ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ] __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!