Sauron and the Ring

[steve]

Help me with this, why dd everyone belive that if sauron was to get the ring of power back everything would be destroyed when before, when he had the ring, he was destroyed

[Anna Licumo]

Well, he was only destroyed because a lot of great Elves and kings of Men were there to stop him. The power they could muster now was NO WHERE near that now. They were pretty much doomed. (Doomed as in "ill fated" not just "fated") Especially since Sauron knew of the Shire and all, this time around.

Hope that helps!

[steve]

yes, he did know of the shire and all, but when the he was killed before, middle earth was still not fully developed as it is in the time of the fellowship hence the other human civlisations and all

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

He was also destroyed the first time around after he lost the ring(and his hand) to Isildur.

[Kuruharan]

Sauron was not totally destroyed even after the Ring was melted. Only Iluvatar can actually "destroy" a soul. He was so severly crippled that he could not take shape again, and became nothing more than a small shadow of malice.

In the War of the Last Alliance he forsook his body after the Ring was cut off. That was more of an act of will because Sauron had been defeated and there was nothing that he could gain by remaining in that body. This was not the first time that had happened to him.

[steve]

i know he only lost his hand and was crippled persay, but what i ment by destroyed was he lost his power and more or less fell from power into being something not to be bothered about

[O'Boile]

You guys should read some of the history of Tolkien.
1. Isildur cut the ring off or Sauron's mortaly wounded body. The portrayal of the movie is inaccurate (done that way to keep things simple). Elendil (Isildur's father) actually delivers the killing blow. Sauron does not die simply because the ring is cut off his hand (other wise how would he be around trying to get the ring back?). He is defeated because he gets stabed a bunch of times.
2. As mentioned by someone else, the good guys were far more powerful at the end of the second age (first time Sauron is defeated) than at the end of the third age (time of the movies/books). Civilisation is actually less developed as it has been in decline for most of the age. Men reached their hights of knowledge/power in the second age while Numenour still existed.

[Kuruharan]

But at last the seige was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.

-Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

You are quite right that the movie did not portray the fall of Sauron correctly. However, there is no mention of his body being stabbed repeatedly. He was "thrown down" and then Isildur cut off the Ring. Then Sauron, of his own choice, abandoned his body. He did not die because the Ring was cut off; he did not really "die" then at all. He just made a "strategic retreat" from his body to await another day.

[ July 24, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Anorien]

Well, he would come back stronger than before! Not to mention his evil forces had multiplied, and he had Sauruman on his side...you see the problem?

[Arwen Imladris]

Another thing, he probebly would have lernt his lesson and been more careful with the ring.

He also had Denethor semi-overpowered.

[O'Boile]

Kuruharan you're right. Sorry, I worded my previous post poorly. It seems to me that he abandoned his body because he had been defeated and the body was on the verge of being destroyed (like with the downfall of Numenour where he also had to abandon his body). To say his body died or was killed was a bad way for me to word it. I like the way you said it with Strategic Retreat.

[O'Boile]

As far as the being stabed part, I read somewhere that it was Elendil who stabed him, and this was the blow that mortaly wounded him. Elendil was subsequently killed by the heat of Sauron's body.
It would seem obvious that he would have been cut/slashed/stabbed several times as the people fighting him would be using their weapons, and Elendil had a sword and Gil-Galad had a spear. The thrown down part in my opinion is the implying his defeat, not that someone actually body-slammed him.

[Kuruharan]

I can certainly see why it could be interpreted that way. That was the way that I interpreted it myself for the longest time. However, it was pointed out to me that Gil-galad and Elendil "wrestled" with Sauron rather than using their weapons. I now believe that Tolkien used the word "wrestled" for a reason because that was the way the three of them fought. Under that light "thrown down" takes a new meaning.

The way I currently picture the struggle is Gil-galad and Elendil rushing and grabbing Sauron. This would be the reason why the heat from Sauron's body killed them rather than whatever weapon Sauron was using. So when they grabbed Sauron they were burnt to a crisp but their bodies fell on top of Sauron temporarily penning him underneath them. During that moment Isildur ran up and cut off the Ring.

That at least is how I see the struggle after years of being badgered and argued out of my original position. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[The Silver-shod Muse]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I always thought of wrestling (as used in LotR and the Silm) in both the physical and spiritual sense. It never occured to me that Sauron, Elendil and Gil-galad would all be scratching and punching each other in a smoldering heap on the ground. Like most stand-offs between powerful forces in Middle Earth, there would probably have been a war of will and dominance, much like when Morgoth and (darn, his name has slipped my mind) that elf sung their two songs: Morgoth of revealing, the elf of escape and concealment. They were "wrestling" also, and the elf was "thrown down" in the end, but it was spiritually as much as physically.

[steve]

yea, yes, but what exactly would the ring have given him anyway

[Kuruharan]

Silver: The two are not mutually exclusive.

steve: Him who? Which him are you referring to?

[O'Boile]

I did read somewhere that Elendil stabbed Sauron. Don't know where it says that, and I don't have my LOTR books with me (on an internship right now). Anyway, why would sauron leave his body unless it was wounded. He has bodily form during LOTR and he does not have the ring, so having the ring cut off would not force him from his body.

[Kuruharan]

He left his body because he was beaten. His armies were destroyed, his kingdom overrun, his fortress conquered, and his Ring had just been severed from his body. If he had stuck around that would have just been an opportunity for people to do greater damage to him. Why put off the inevitable? He left so that he could begin preparing for another day.

[ July 25, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Dimaldaeon]

Er Silver, that was Sauron not Morgoth and the elf was king Finrod Felagund of Nargothrond.

[Sarin Elfarmour]

he put a large amount of his power into the ring when Isildur cut the ring from him he was drawing power from the ring and the sudden shock of loss of power was probably too much so he left his body to recover and plan his revenge