The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Movies
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-26-2004, 01:57 PM   #1
Elianna
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
Elianna has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien Sam who?

In the EE of TTT, Gandalf gives this huge long monologue to Aragorn ending with that Frodo is all alone. Aragorn replys "Not alone. Sam went with him." Gandalf then seems surprised. Why? He knows he, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are all together. He knows that Merry and Pippin are with Treebeard. And he seems to know that Frodo has gone on to Mordor. Where does he think Sam is if not by Frodo's side? Dead?
Elianna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 04:21 PM   #2
DarkRose
Wight
 
DarkRose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sauron's Garden
Posts: 157
DarkRose has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to DarkRose
I don't think he is surprised, although I see how one could be mislead in that scene to believe so.

I think Gandalf takes a moment to feel comfort about the fact that Sam is going with Frodo. Like an "Ah, yes." type of moment, if you know what I'm trying to get across.

Tis difficult to describe.
__________________
"All rivers go to the sea, yet never does the sea become full."
DarkRose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2004, 09:58 PM   #3
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
I don't think he is surprised, although I see how one could be mislead in that scene to believe so.
Sounds plasible except for this part:

(Aragorn)"He's not alone. Sam went with him."

(Gandalf)"Did he? Did he indeed..."

I think that shows that Gandalf did not realize that Sam was with Frodo. It's a good question Elianna, I was just mentioning what you said to my friends the last time we saw TTT together. Surely Gandalf would've found out just about everything that had happened to the Fellowship during the long ride to Edoras. I would like to think he'd wonder where Sam is, not just assume he's dead or gone home .
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2004, 08:15 AM   #4
dancing spawn of ungoliant
Mischievous Candle
 
dancing spawn of ungoliant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam.
Posts: 1,267
dancing spawn of ungoliant has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to dancing spawn of ungoliant
Well, I'd suppose it has been put that way in the movie because...
Chapter 5, The White Rider: (Legolas) "We think that Sam went with him."
"Did he!" said Gandalf, and there was a gleam in his eye and a smile on his face. "Did he indeed? It is news to me, yet it does not surprise me."
I personally think that it was a nice little moment in the film between Gandalf and Aragorn.
__________________
Fenris Wolf
dancing spawn of ungoliant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2004, 08:39 AM   #5
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
according to the book:

Quote:
'Then you know about Frodo!' said Gimli. 'How do things go with him?'
'I cannot say. He was saved from a great peril, but many lie before him still. He resolved to go alone to Mordor, and he set out: that is all that I can say.'
'Not alone,' said Legolas. 'We think that Sam went with him.'
'Did he!' said Gandalf, and there was a gleam in his eye and a smile on his face. 'Did he indeed? It is news to me, yet it does not surprise me. Good! Very good! You lighten my heart. You must tell me more. Now sit by me and tell me the tale of your journey.'
edit: sorry, it was a cross-poster, DSoU. But I'd let the quote stay.
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2004, 06:41 PM   #6
Elianna
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
Elianna has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

Then I guess my question is towards Tolkien, not Jackson. But I still don't get it.
Elianna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2004, 07:29 PM   #7
Mad Baggins
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Mad Baggins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: A place where after thunder golden showers come falling like a rain of flowers.
Posts: 374
Mad Baggins has just left Hobbiton.
I was thinking the same thing, until this was posted.
Quote:
'Did he!' said Gandalf, and there was a gleam in his eye and a smile on his face.
When people are pretending to be surprised but they really know that something has already happened, they get odd little looks on their faces and gleams in their eyes. This makes me think that Gandalf is pretending to be surprised about the news, but he really knew all along. Just my two cents.
__________________
I like buying snacks from a vending machine because food is better when it falls. Sometimes at the grocery, I'll drop a candy bar so that it will achieve its maximum flavor potential.
Mad Baggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2004, 08:30 PM   #8
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

I've got to admit that Tokien's inclusion of Gandalf's line in his book makes no more sense to me than PJ's inclusion of it in his movie. I'd like to think Gandalf cared enough about all the members of the Fellowship that he'd keep informed on where they all were (to a certain degree). It just makes no sense to me that he somehow let Sam slip by him unnoticed :/.
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2004, 11:53 PM   #9
HerenIstarion
Deadnight Chanter
 
HerenIstarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,301
HerenIstarion is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to HerenIstarion
Well, why should not he surprised - the information he's got comes from what he was able to pick from Frodo's mind, and he knows for sure Frodo has decided to go alone. Later events, though known in more general form, are lacking detail for him. One of his sources is Gwaihir, but he could not discern things unless they are on the plain. If Sam is to be left by the Rauros, Gwaihir has no way of seeing him, as he has no way of seeing Frodo among the cliffs of Emyn Muil. So Gandalf, as he have seen it happen, knows that Merry and Pippin were picked up by Treebeard. Furthermore he knows that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are here in pursuit of orks. But Sam is not a marathon runner, he could not possibly followed three hunters at such distance and speed. The logical conclusion is:

A) Frodo went alone
B) Aragorn Legolas and Gimli left Sam behind

There is of course a suspicion that Sam is not easy to get rid off, but there is no knowing for sure, hence:

''Did he indeed? It is news to me, yet it does not surprise me'

For though it may have happened so, it is no knowing for Gandalf unless he's told
__________________
Egroeg Ihkhsal

- Would you believe in the love at first sight?
- Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!
HerenIstarion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2004, 02:32 AM   #10
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 887
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
we also need to take into context when this discussion took place. In the book it takes place after Gandalf has just met up with the three hunters in Fangorn. I believe his mind was not functioning at 100% at this stage. He had come back from death, and in my opinion, he was taking time to get back to his old self again. Read the passages in this context and you can understand his reply regarding Sam.

Whilst in the EE verision of the film (if I can remember), the speech about Sam took place later (in Edoras? can't quite remember) so it is somewhat out of context to me.

On another note, Gandalf may have thought that Sam had died. Why not? the fellowship atttacked by a multitude of Orcs, Boromir dead, why not a little hobbit?
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2004, 09:07 AM   #11
Elianna
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
Elianna has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

Essex: This scene is put into the movie while Gandalf et all are on their way to Edoras. Not too far out of context.
It was one of my guesses that part of the reason lay in that Gandalf had just finished being dead...
I still don't think Gandalf would've really thought Sam dead. He knows that Merry and Pippin had been captured by the orcs, probably figured out they were still alive because Saruman thought they, being Halfings, might have the Ring. Sam, if captured, would've been kept alive too. Right?
Elianna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2004, 06:38 PM   #12
Morsul the Dark
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Morsul the Dark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,502
Morsul the Dark is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Morsul the Dark is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Question alright heres a bit from the book

ok.gandealf comes back to life.......and where does he go ? to lothlorien.....ok in the book sam had looked into the mirrore as well as frodo........so galadrial may have told him this.......and told him about sams extreme sorrow about the happenings in the shire. so he may have assumed that sam had either followed frodo OR gone back to the shire to try and set things right.. i think PJ's excerpt was mainly from the scene and assumed it would make sense.. i wasnt all that confused..at least thats how i intrepret it any thoughts~~
Morsul the Dark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2004, 11:04 AM   #13
Kitanna
Child of the West
 
Kitanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Watching President Fillmore ride a unicorn
Posts: 2,390
Kitanna is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kitanna is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Shield

This is what my friend said when I asked her the very same question. She thinks Gandalf thought Sam probably just went home because that's all he wanted to do anyway. I agree with that and disagree because of all people Gandalf would know just how loyal Sam is to Frodo, but then again there could still have been a chance for Sam to go home.
__________________
"Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain
Kitanna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2004, 06:55 PM   #14
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
ok.gandealf comes back to life.......and where does he go ? to lothlorien.....ok in the book sam had looked into the mirrore as well as frodo........so galadrial may have told him this.......and told him about sams extreme sorrow about the happenings in the shire. so he may have assumed that sam had either followed frodo OR gone back to the shire to try and set things right.. i think PJ's excerpt was mainly from the scene and assumed it would make sense.. i wasnt all that confused..at least thats how i intrepret it any thoughts~~
I very fine explanation of it, except that I still don't think Gandalf would just let the matter rest in a sort of 'oh well, he's gone, to bad' sort of way. I don't doubt that as soon as Gandalf could he would've found out for sure. And besides, surely Galadriel would've also included Sam's final resolution to go with Frodo? To many holes in this opinion for me, but it was an angle I hadn't seen/heard before.

Kitanna: I disagree with your friend's explanation also ( I'm very disagreeable on this subject, aren't I? ). Gandalf understood Sam's loyalty to Frodo, perhaps he understood it better than anyone else, he probably wouldn't have bought Sam leaving him. Of course Sam had the chance, he had it all along, Elrond himself told every member of the Fellowship that Frodo alone was required to continue on the Quest, but Sam wouldn't have taken any of the opportunities, & Gandalf no doubt knew that.
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2004, 08:05 PM   #15
Morsul the Dark
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Morsul the Dark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,502
Morsul the Dark is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Morsul the Dark is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Pipe

well personally id like to think that at least now we've got another theory to ponder and perhaps ur right and im wrong...i mean i did forgot that galadrial knew sam had followed frodo........i do however think gandalf may have been merely traveling with haste knowing time growing quite short and was merely flustered i know he had time to think but as i recall(im now thinking about the movie i forget exactly how it went in the book) he had forgotten his own name he may have merely overlooked sam...or perhaps he thought sam had gone with frodo and it was merely reinforcement of the thought.
__________________
Morsul the Resurrected
Morsul the Dark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2004, 03:01 PM   #16
wilwarin538
Fluttering Enchantment
 
wilwarin538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,661
wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to wilwarin538
Question

i agree with morsul, like in TTT he hardly even remembered what his name was so maybe when aragorn, gimli and legolas informed him about what had happened aragorn thought that gandalf would atomaticaly think sam went with frodo so didnt bother mentioning him, so sam (like his name) just slipped gandalf`s mind.
__________________
Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit
Fenris Muffin
wilwarin538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2004, 03:18 PM   #17
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
aragorn thought that gandalf would atomaticaly think sam went with frodo so didnt bother mentioning him, so sam (like his name) just slipped gandalf`s mind.
So did Aragorn & co. have to totally refresh Gandalf's memory? If so, with Gandalf remembering no one's names, they would've had to explain Frodo, & most likely he wouldn't forget to mention Sam. Oh well, no one really knows...
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2004, 05:05 PM   #18
Kitanna
Child of the West
 
Kitanna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Watching President Fillmore ride a unicorn
Posts: 2,390
Kitanna is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kitanna is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Shield

I watched TTT the other day and when Aragorn says "He's not alone, Sam went with him." At first Gandalf goes "He did?" Then he nods and has this look on his face like, "oh I should have known better." And then Gandalf nods and goes "He did."
__________________
"Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain
Kitanna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2004, 06:05 PM   #19
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Quote:
I watched TTT the other day and when Aragorn says "He's not alone, Sam went with him." At first Gandalf goes "He did?" Then he nods and has this look on his face like, "oh I should have known better." And then Gandalf nods and goes "He did."
Are you sure about that? I thought it went like this:

Aragorn-"He's not alone, Sam went with him."

Gandalf-"Did he? Did he indeed..."

Followed by something like 'very good'
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2004, 06:37 PM   #20
elfwishes999
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 37
elfwishes999 has just left Hobbiton.
Shield

Gandalf wasn't surprised because he was the one who sent Sam on the whole journey with Frodo in the first place! he made sam promise not to leave frodo, so why in the heck would he be surprised if he knew sam had to have been with frodo...some things in movies are just so confusing
elfwishes999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2004, 04:53 PM   #21
wilwarin538
Fluttering Enchantment
 
wilwarin538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,661
wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.wilwarin538 is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to wilwarin538
Eye

maybe he thought that by this time Sam missed his garden and Rosie and the gaffer so much that he chickened out?? I dont know but ya its very confusing.
__________________
Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit
Fenris Muffin
wilwarin538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2004, 10:23 AM   #22
Olorin_TLA
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor.
Posts: 420
Olorin_TLA has just left Hobbiton.
Well Gandalf must have notcied the lack of Boromir, and he hadn't spoken to Merry or Pippin, so he had many reasosn to think that (a) Boromir and Sam went a different route, (b) 1 or more of those 2 are dead, or (c) Boromir's gone, and Sam's been captured (possibly taken by Mordor Orks when they argued with Sartuman's ones), etc.
__________________
"For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!"

ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"
Olorin_TLA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2004, 03:20 PM   #23
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Olorin_TLA: Is it likely he wouldn't immediantly find out where the others are? Especially since they had such a long ride ahead of them, plenty of time to talk.
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2004, 01:11 PM   #24
Kath
Everlasting Whiteness
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams
Posts: 4,725
Kath is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kath is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kath is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Send a message via MSN to Kath
Maybe in his post-deth state he forgot about Sam simply because he hadn't been mentioned. I mean he'd seen Merry and Pippin with Treebeard, and he'd seen Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli by this point and Frodo was the most important member of the Fellowship and it's a little unlikely that Gandalf would forget about the Ring. Sam at the time when Gandlaf left was pretty inconsequential so he could have been surprised at the memory of Sam.
__________________
“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2004, 03:34 PM   #25
The Only Real Estel
Raffish Rapscallion
 
The Only Real Estel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-(
Posts: 3,025
The Only Real Estel has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

I don't know, Kath. I have a hard time buying the idea that Gandalf had to have everything told back to him again. Since he obviously was a little blurry at first, we know he wasn't 100%, but surely his memory began to come back after being reminded of his name? I know that (at least in the movie), he finishes his own thought on the matter of Gandalf being his name, so that at least proves that some of his memory is coming back.
The Only Real Estel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2004, 09:49 AM   #26
Elianna
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
Elianna has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

I've got another idea:

It's based on the "gleam in his eye and smile on his face."

Maybe Gandalf was doing an Aslan kind of thing: getting Aragorn himself to say that Frodo wasn't alone, instead of simply telling him. This way Gandalf knew who Sam was and remembered him, and is comforting Aragorn in a wise way, very in character.

Thing is, while Tolkien "borrowing" something from his friend C.S. Lewis isn't farfetched, I don't think it quite fits in the book. And I doubt Jackson would've used a Lewis reference.
Elianna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2004, 07:48 PM   #27
Lhundulinwen
Wight
 
Lhundulinwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wishin' and hopin' in the Shire
Posts: 139
Lhundulinwen has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Lhundulinwen Send a message via MSN to Lhundulinwen Send a message via Yahoo to Lhundulinwen
Silmaril

I don't think its so far off to say that PJ would use a Lewis reference. I mean, why not? Its a well known fact that Tolkien and Lewis were friends, and shared their writings with each other and the other Inklings. Personally, I think Gandalf was somehow reassuring Aragorn in a way. Making him say that Sam was with Frodo (therby covering Frodo's hiney ) may have made Aragorn, at least for a while, relax and trust that everything just might work out, even if the world was on the brink of meltdown. That's my take on it, anyway...
__________________
~*Just call on me, and I'm there. I'll always be your Sam*~
Lhundulinwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:05 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.