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02-04-2010, 03:57 AM | #1 |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Despots, old and new
I would say there are some perennial traits regarding any dictatorship, be it in fantasy or in real life. Disregarding for a moment the magic factor in ruling subjects, (or, equating it, if you will, with the "magic" of modern transmission of information, and with advances in the science of mass persuasion/manipulation), I would say that a lot of parallels can be seen, pointing to some of the weaknesses of the human spirit, and how easy/often they are taken advantage of:
- ruthless rulers, proclaiming "divine" guidance, while perpetrating massive acts of violence; in Ea, take Numenor towards its end; in RL, take some modern day leaders of "superpower" nations, from the Western side of the fence, and, say the Romanian Iron Legion government, or, why not, the Nazi regime itself - subjects willing to do the bidding of such rules, almost completely convinced of the righteousness of doing so; - extreme hypocrisy from rules in both worlds: or well, at least at the start, when they are aware they are planning to manipulate others into following them; later, they all seem to start believe their own lies of greatness and entitlement - the mixing of theology and politics to further authoritarian agendas: Sauron definitely propagated a theology of his own; many authoritarian RL leaders also find the mix of the two quite helpful; feigning piousness to a supernatural power has always served tyrants well, as noted by Aristotle - infatuation with technologies, of the destroying kind - reckless exploitation of the environment, with rather complete disregard of future impacts - anomie and atomie: breakdown of laws, and breakdown of social relations - persecution of the dissidents, stiffing of open debate, torture of "lower" races and even of the "chosen kind", if they stray from the official politic; - the 'paradox' of using the ladder of old customs to get to the top, but then abolishing them for personal benefit - instilling fear in order to start wars - increased accumulation/polarization of wealth in the hands of few (during Akallabeth, "their rich men [grew] even richer", in an obviously zero-sum game) - exploiting the lure of instant satisfaction (be it merchandise in real life, or avoiding "the end of delight" in Numenor by conquering the undying lands) - militaristic legacy: near-constant waging of wars, as a normal way of life - appropriation of (or, at least, actions taken to appropriate) lands of particular natural resources, because they should 'obviously' belong to the rulers (such oil resources in real life, or the undying lands) Any thoughts on how much these comparisons hold true, or how similar the mechanisms may be in either case?
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
02-04-2010, 10:08 AM | #2 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
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I'm not quite sure what you're after here. I do see the potential for trouble, however, if you seek to draw comparisons of the perceived worst attributes of 'government' in Tolkien's Arda with actual sovereign nations in the real world.
In the interests of a books-related discussion, though, it would be helpful to have more examples from the books of some of the elements you cite, such as: Quote:
Also, you seem to single out Nśmenor for special examination. I really don't see much in the way of a modern parallel. The Fall of Nśmenor, in my opinion, had its ultimate root in the desire of the Dśnedain to obtain immortality. They wanted something they were biologically incapable of having. The reason apparently they alone as mortals were susceptible to this failing, I think, was bound to their proximity to the Undying Lands, so close they could physically see what in their eyes was Paradise. I can think of no 'real' parallel. And you make this remark: Quote:
Upon the arrival an actual 'divine' being, Sauron, they began a 'satanic' religion, and their road to ruin was all but assured. They really were 'inspired' then by what they took as their god, an 'angelic' being in incarnate form. As far as I know, nothing of the sort has occurred in our world: incarnate Evil whispering in the ears of a king.
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02-04-2010, 11:00 AM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Something I'm concerned about, Raynor, is how you're defining "dictatorship." The original dictator was a person selected by the Roman republic to have absolute power in times of emergency--but he had to give it up after a year. The fact is that there have been plenty of absolutist rulers in the real world who don't fit with your criteria.
For example if we want to look at many of the Roman emperors--particularly those in the earlier era--we had rulers who understood that if they kept the People busy (i.e., bread and circuses) they weren't going to rise up. Even though these people had few basic rights, and if they had a vote it was basically bought and sold, they weren't "oppressed" in the sense that you're suggesting. They were still kept from pursuing political rights, but by different means than the ones that you suggest. So these absolutists might count as "exploiting the lure of instant satisfaction", but there wasn't really any fearmongering to start wars--at least during the Pax Romana. (Wars along the borders weren't because of fears... it was because that was what people did!) The other brilliant thing that the early Romans did was have really, really good PR by pretending they still had the old system of rights that existed in the Republic, because they could compare against "Eastern Despots." But oftentimes the Eastern Despots did the exact same thing the Romans did. The point is that, from a historical perspective, the ideas of universal democracy, etc., have been more blips in time than any sort of widespread movement, and it wasn't really until the self-titled Enlightenment that the idea of Universal Rights got bandied around a lot, and that absolute monarchy started to get a bad name. And just to stir the pot a little more... how much do we really know about Elessar's style of ruling in the restored kingdom? We know that he let the Shire be basically autonomous, and that he reinstated a state religion, but that's about it. He was a monarch with central authority, which he had the right to use even if he may not have used it all the time. How much of an absolutist was he, and what policies of his really contradicted those of these dictators that you're criticizing so much? I have to run--but I'd really like to see a more specific definition of what you mean by "dictator." 20th century dictatorship and 18th century absolutism, and even the ancient absolutism of the Egyptians are all very, very different things.
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02-04-2010, 01:09 PM | #4 | |
shadow of a doubt
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No time to write a full post now but I agree with nemo and Zil that real world parallels are hard to draw, because of how the stories are written. And sadly we know next to nothing about how Sauron came to rule the East...
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02-04-2010, 04:25 PM | #5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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My feeling is that it is both easy and difficult to draw parallels between fiction and the real world when the fiction half is very strongly influenced by the archetypes of myth and legend. Mythical Good and Evil can be absolute; it can be drawn in black and white, whereas reality is full of myriad shades of gray. Myth is the distillate of the two components of gray, and thus one can find a lot of partial parallels between what is real and what is invented. For instance, one can look at Sauron's militaristic regime and equate it with Rome, but the Romans distracted the general populace with what we now call "bread and circuses," hoping that so long as the people felt their creature comforts, needs, and entertainments were being adequately maintained, they wouldn't notice how the wars and the costs of spreading the Empire were getting out of hand. Nowhere does Sauron use this tactic -- though we can sure find it in our modern world. It seems that Sauron's idea of appeasing the masses is by tricking them into things that will directly benefit him: handing out rings of power to ensnare those he would otherwise have had a hard time subjugating, establishing Melkor worship in Numenor, where he as the chief high priest of the religion would get the king under his thumb and thus become a very potent power behind an impotent throne. Oh yes, there are many aspects of many real despots and despotic regimes in Sauron and Melkor, but as they are symbols of the root of all evils in the world, they cannot, I think, be truly equated with any single person or government. Some degree of what they are as a distilled form of Evil is in all persons and policies that seek to control and subjugate others. IMHO, of course.
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. John Stewart Mill |
02-04-2010, 05:23 PM | #6 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalė
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Soo many loose ends to comment on! *and so little time before needing to go to sleep - like now*
So just one comment... I do agree with Ibrin that it is both easy and hard to draw parallels. Like here... Quote:
And actually one could continue on that parable by saying that the synoptic Gospels were close to the way the Numenorian's held high the "true faith" but with the late John everything got out of hand - like Sauron got his ideas mingled with the Numenorian belifs... sweet talkin' but corrupted and rotten to the bone! I mean you can interpret these in many ways... But an interesting topic!
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Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... Last edited by Nogrod; 02-04-2010 at 05:26 PM. |
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02-04-2010, 06:30 PM | #7 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
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The Nśmenórean king, Tar-Atanamir was not satisfied by those words, and he was the first of his people to 'cling' to life to the bitter end.
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02-05-2010, 02:48 AM | #8 | |||||||
Eagle of the Star
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If I was to draw a more exact comparison between Sauron's regime and a real one, I would choose some soviet "communist" regime (yeah, I loath calling that communism); choose your pick, whichever was the harshest - I would bet that would be Stalin. I am saying this because Sauron ruled mostly by fear; he couldn't actually control the human fea through magic (iirc, Mandos says that the spirit itself of Men is as indomitable as the spirit of the valar), but he could instill enough terror to make them "weak and fearful", as said in Akallabeth. To the credit of the human race, in both Ea and our world, we have persons willing to escape, or even fight the evil even from within; there were humans who fled from Melkor, and under Sauon some "shook off the yoke and unlearned the terror of the dark" especially when they saw the arrival of the Numenoreans.
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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02-05-2010, 09:24 AM | #9 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
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There are certainly parallels in the real world for what one might call the philosophies of war of Tolkien's villains -- though I don't think any are quite as extreme as Melkor once he descended into his total nihilistic madness. The Soviet and Chinese "communist" regimes are probably closest, in that they at points have attempted to control not only the government, but the most basic of human rights, the right to think and believe as one chooses. Sauron's approach of not minding the existence of other beings, so long as they acknowledge him as the supreme power in charge of the world reminds me of Rome, the Mongol Empire, and others that don't come to mind at the moment (sorry. Pounding headaches do not make for the clearest thinking).
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. John Stewart Mill |
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