Gothmog????

[the witch king]

hi im looking for more info on Gothmog(of the 3rd age not the balrog) iv had a look around but cant find any thing more than personal opinion can any 1 help me?

[Raefindel]

Welcome to the Downs, the witch king.

I looked up "Gothmog" in The Tolkien Companion (which is not cannon, but often helpful) It says this;

Gothmog- the chief Lieutenant of the Tower of Minas Morgul during the War of the Ring. His race-whether Orc, Troll or Nazgul -is unknown. He took command of the hosts of Morgul during the Battle of the Pelannor Fields after the fall of his Overlord.

I realize that was vague and wish I could be more helpful.

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: Raefindel ]

[the witch king]

thanx anyway i gess il have 2 keep looking

[Sharkû]

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...=002407#000018 and below.

[the witch king]

very helpful thank you

[Dorathain_Flamesword]

Ok guys, I have a question concerning GOTHMOG in the Return of the King. In the chapter entitled The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, along with the lord of the Nazgul, Gothmog was the lieutenant of the opposing army. Now, I have been led on that there were actually TWO Gothmogs in all of Middle-Earth. I don't know if this is true, but can someone tell me? Well I wondering if it was referring to Gothmog the Balrog lord, or the other Gothmog, if there is another. And don't you think if in the movie the RotK, a huge Balrog lord was on the fields of Pelennor, fighting a battle in front of Minas-Tirith it would be awesome? I would.

[Beren87]

Gothmog, the balrog lord, was slain by Ecthelion during the destrucion of Gondolion. This Gothmog was not a balrog, and while it would be an interesting sight to see on Pelannor fields, that would be unaccurate.

[Dorathain_Flamesword]

Thanks. Disappointing I won't see a Balrog whoop up on the Pelennor Fields though...

[SamwiseGamgee]

Beren87, was that a deliberate mistake? 'Uncorrect'. Reminds me of Ralph Wiggum. 'Me fail English? That's unpossible!' Hehe! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Now, the question. I've always felt that Gothmog was a Nazgul, owing largely to this piece in The Hunt for The Ring:

Now at the time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamul the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldor as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger.

As I see it, why would the Witch King have an orc or Black Numenorean as his right hand man when he could have his choice of six Nazgul?
Also, on the battlefield a Nazgul would be a far more intimidating and rousing sight for your troops than an orc or black Numenorean.
There is only one mention of Gothmog in the text of LoTR:

He [The Witch King] was now destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray...

That, by the by, is where the abovementioned fact that Gothmog is lieutenant to the Witch King at Minas Morgul comes from. However, the quote is not at all helpful, and you can't even read into the text whether Gothmog was a mighty warrior, a wicked mastermind or a cowardly backrow leader. It's one of those openended questions, I'm afraid. All that can be given is opinion, really.
Hope I helped, though.

[Frodo2968thewhite]

Okay, Gothmog the lieutenant of Minas Morgul is said to be the second most powerful Nazgul of the nine, if he was indeed a Nazgul. Chances are, yes, but in the ROTK movie, Gothmog was that main orc with the eye missing that almost got crushed by the boulder. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] But in my opinion, he was a Nazgul. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

As I see it, why would the Witch King have an orc or Black Numenorean as his right hand man when he could have his choice of six Nazgul?

Because they would remain at the tower and be more familiar with the troops (and the troops wouldn't be terrified to death of one of those). Why would Sauron choose a Black Numenorean as his Lt. at Barad-dur? I don't know, but he did - the Mouth of Sauron was no Nazgul.

Okay, Gothmog the lieutenant of Minas Morgul is said to be the second most powerful Nazgul of the nine,

No, Khamul, the Lt. of Dol Guldur was the second most powerful of the Nazgul.

[ainur]

At the time of the Battle of the Pellanor, the staff at Dol Guldur were no doubt busy in Lothlorien. As for the Lieutenant of Morgul, my first impression was that he was Nazgul, but I tend to agree with Legolas. He probably was not. There is certainly no evidence that he was, and Tolkien would not (I think) have omitted this fact if he was indeed a Nazgul.

By the way, Do Balrogs have wings and could they fly? Was Tom Bombadil a Maia? How did Gandalf recover his staff after Moria? Why didn't the Eagles just fly Frodo from Rivendell to Mount Doom and have done? What was the real power of the Silmarils? and if you can fit it in, just how old was the Mouth of Sauron, and where did he come from?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Haha! Well, Ainur, let me begin...only funning. As I said it's an open-ended question. You rightly pointed out there's no evidence to support Gothmog being a Nazgul, but then there's none to say he's not. I think it was Saucepan Man in another thread said he'd always thought Gothmog a Nazgul because of an old LoTR board game he had! It just depends!
Legolas, I agree the Mouth of Sauron was no Nazgul:

...yet this was no ringwraith but a living man...

, that's fair enough, but I think the Witch King of Angmar would have perhaps felt more solidarity with his fello wraiths and chosen aone as lieutenant. Also, what you said about the troops not being terrified: why would WK care if his troops were terrified.
I just don't hold with the thought that the lieutenant of Minas Morgul must not have been a Nazgul simply because 'who would run the city when all the wraiths were away otherwise?' The orcs managed to run Cirith Ungol ok...well, kind of. Ahem. If Gothmog was an orc, though, why would other orcs fear or respect him? If Gothmog were a Nazgul, though, the fear of Sauron himself would be put into those orcs, and be he or the WK there or not, they would know they would have to answer to either the WK or his lieutenant- both Nazgul.
Frodo2968thewhite, while Gothmog was represented by an orc in the movie, that's not canon and we can't really rely on it. Also, if Gothmog were an orc, look at how he looked! Would you obey him? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[doug*platypus]

Also, what you said about the troops not being terrified: why would WK care if his troops were terrified.

Good point, Samwise, I can't imagine him shedding too many tears over that one. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Because they would remain at the tower and be more familiar with the troops (and the troops wouldn't be terrified to death of one of those).

In fact, not being completely terrified of your commander would probably be a disadvantage for the armies of Mordor (no doubt a contrast by Tolkien of different leadership styles). The armies of the Witch-King were absolutely under his command, no question of desertion or refusal to obey orders there. We are told they would even "slay themselves at his bidding". IMHO, the point in question makes it more likely that Gothmog was a Nazgûl. Based on the premise that fear and domination create a supremely obedient fighting force, a Nazgûl as commander would have been preferable to an orc or a man.

Were all nine Nazgûl present for the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and the march on the Balck Gate? If Khamul was lieutenant of Dol Guldur, shouldn't he have been there (with his best buddy Nazgûl) commanding the assault on Lórien, instead of flying around Minas Tirith?? There's some speculation about this on the thread called Nazgûl at the Pelennor Fields.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I was thinking that the second-in-command could be filled haphazardly by anyone, seeing the seeming invincibility of the Witch-King. C'mon! What would he do there, with the most powerful of Sauron's warriors is doing the leading?

Probably Gothmog is a human, who sucked up to Sauron(see Mouth of Sauron), thus growing in rank, until he was the second most powerful human in Sauron's army.

Another, though less convincing point against Gothmog being a Nazgûl: not one of them was named in Sindarin(then again, only two of them are given names.)

Later days! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
->Elenrod

[Finwe]

Samwise, I'd obey him just so I could get his ugly face away from me! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]


I don't think the Witch-king cared about his army or other underlings at all. He just did what had to be done, in order to win. He was an extreme contrast to Aragorn, who constantly looked out for the welfare of his followers or subjects.