Were Morgoth and Sauron afraid of light?

[HerenIstarion]

Animated Skeleton
Posts: 34

Some time ago I was chatting with BW and mentioned that always imaginad Sauron and Morgoth as dark of face and that they were afraid of light. Then I considered this statement, looked through some pages of Silm and here is what have I found:

No source implies that both of them were dark-skinned. Neiter one was afraid of light. Yes, Angband is surrounded by shadows and darkness, but inside silmarils are shining - would it be possible for one afraid of light to got a Silmaril near oneself? true, the rise of the Sun scares Morgoth, yet not because he was frightened by it's light, but because it was made as an arm against him, as a fire to defeat him, it was a token that he failed and murder of trees was not accomplished fully. And those 'darknesses', 'mists', 'fogs' and 'clouds' around Angband are just a reflection of his deep thought and will which tries to protect him against the Sun - not the light but Valar weapon

[quam]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 73</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Were Morgoth and Sauron afraid of light?

Definitely not Sauron in the 2nd age,because he was &quot;captured&quot; and taken to Numenor,which is certainly not a dark island,but maybe he was afraid of it after he lost the battle at the end of the 2nd age, against the Last Alliance.

My tolkien favorites are <a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com/"target="web">the Tolkientrail</A>(michael martinez loved it!), http://www.barrowdowns.com/The Barrow-downs</A> and its http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/forum</a> and http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad/Mount Gundabad</A>
"Quis,Quae,Quid
Quem,Quam,Quid"
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[HerenIstarion]

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 58

I have just found this passage in Myths Transformed - when Melkor attacks the Sun:

Melkor was burned and his brightness darkened, and he gave no more light, but light pained him exceedingly and he hated it

HoMe v.X MT p381

It must be assumed that Melkor, one of exceeding brightness in his beginnings, afterwards became dark, burned by the Sun, in wich was the light unknown to Melkor, as it came with the third theme of Eru, and hated the light generally ever after. Yet, painful as it was to him, he desired it still - so he had stolen silmarili

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Morgoth and Sauron afraid of light?

Without looking for the passage you cite, I would guess it addresses Morgoth's attack upon Arien. Without entering into the &quot;is that passage what JRRT intended&quot; debate, it is fair to observe the following:

(1) Morgoth used the dark for his own purposes, for hiding and cover, to provide protection to his light sensitive servants and to annoy and harass the Valar and the Children of Iluvatar. Morgoth was the ultimate anarchist, if something caused a disturbance, he liked it. He disliked the sun as working counter to his purposes because it aided the Valar and, at least in earlier conceptions, housed Arien who he feared. He, indeed lusted after the Silmarils and their light, but hated the Trees for the light and joy they brought. Morgoth did not fear light, although he likely hated it as he hated all things which provided order.

(2) Although Sauron was a &quot;dark lord&quot; and could no longer assume a fair visage, he began as a lover of order and the power of command. His desires did not match those of Morgoth, but rather paralleled them. Morgoth wished to cause as much chaos as he could through domination and power. He wanted his essence to enter into everything and to ruin all that the Valar did. Sauron wanted power to impose order and, to an extent, may have been deluded into believing that his goals were good though his means were not. In the end, he simply wanted domination. He too used darkness for his purposes, but there is no reason to believe that he feared light.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[HerenIstarion]

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 60

Thank you Mithadan, I came to the same conclusion In fact my former opinions were rather childish

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Morgoth and Sauron afraid of light?

Disagree. You made several good points. If Morgoth were afraid of light, he certainly would not have placed the triple headlamps of the Silmarils on his crown (ohhhhhh! bad unintentional pun). Your english is excellent by the way. Only when you rush does your grammar break down. Then again, so does the grammar of many others who post,

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[HerenIstarion]

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 62

ANAR KALUVA TIELYANNA!

Yesterday I have found this:

He [Manwe -- HI] could not penetrate by distant mind-sight his (melkor's, HI) thought and purposes, since Melkor remained in a fixed and powerful will to withhold his mind, which physically expressed took shape in the darkness and shadows that surrounded him

HoME v X Myths Transformed

So here we have another reason for Melkor to hide himself in shadow, not only fear of the Sun.

PS The more I read MT, more thoughtful I become...

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Were Morgoth and Sauron afraid of light?

I don't think that he was afraid of light, unless it was strong light, like that of Anor and Arien. For he attacked the moon but not the sun. It's just that he perfered darkness and used it rather than light. He did not fear the light, just opposed it or he would have destroyed the silmarils instead of taken them (Unless he was the kind of guy who tries to conquer all his fears <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> , but I don't think that's the reason).

Gurth an Glamhoth!

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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
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Re: Were Morgoth and Sauron afraid of light?

When the sun first shone above middle-earth for the first time, it feared Melkor and he went to the darkest part of his fortress. Later he got used to it and so did Sauron but they never liked the sunlight and prefered travelling by night.

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[Telchar]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Were Morgoth and Sauron afraid of light?

where is it stated that Melkor and Sauron preferred to travel by night ??? Their servants did so, thats correct. But I think Mithadan and H-I makes the subject perfectly clear.
Tolkien ever associated Darkness and evil. And the Evil powers use of darkness to spread fear, which was one of their primery veapons. But they (Sauron and Morgoth) were not afraid of light though they disliked it, being the joy of their enemies, Elves and men!

<img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> Telchar

Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>