Elves becoming rustic folk

[Alchisiel]

I'm reading the Lord of the Rings for the third time this year and while I was reading the Mirror of Galadriel chapter I never noticed a part of the paragraph:

"Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten."

What does Galadriel mean by a rustic folk of dell and cave? Will they slowly become like men or what? Any thoughts?

[Boromir88]

Galadriel created Lothlorien through the power of her ring, Nenya. When the One Ring is destroyed, the 3 rings (and the others) lose their powers, so Lothlorien will fade.

Then the Elves have a choice (or atleast certain elves), of travelling into the West (like Galadriel, Elrond, Celeborn, Legolas...etc) or staying in middle-earth. If they stay in middle-earth then yes they will end up fading away.

P.S. Good observation .

[davem]

I think it grew out of his need to explain why there are no more Elves in the World - some passed into the West, others 'faded', perhaps into 'spirits', 'ghosts', haunting the last wild places.

Not perhaps a very 'Christian' vision - in the sense of their having a choice between going to 'Heaven' in the West, or wandering the world - no going to Hell. But then, they can't really face a judgement day of any kind because they don't naturally die.

Finally he seemed to have decided that if they remained in the world their spirits (Fea) would kind of burn away their bodies (Hroa).

Its sad - well, poignant would be a better word I suppose - but its part of their tragic fate.

[Mithalwen]

I am sure you will get more erudite answers with references, but this is an attempt at a "basic" answer since I am not at home.

There are two main aspects to this. One is cultural the other is to do with the physical nature of the elves.

When the Elves first awoke at the dawn of time, some went to the West to live with the Valar (angelic guardians of the world) and others remained in Middle Earth. Galadriel is one of the few reamining exiles in Middle Earth. She was born in the West but after a revolt against the Valar she came to Middle Earth. The Exiles, had learnt much from the Valar and as a result were much more powerful, cultured and sophisticated than the elves who remained The exiles return was teh catalyst for so much bloodshed and war that many of the silvan elves (the ones who had never left middle Earth) rejected the "culture" of the Exiles (and the Valar) and deliberately led a simple life, "keeping themselves to themselves". Think of the difference between Galadriel, Glorfindel and even Gildor who know what is going on and Haldir or even Legolas, who has travelled much less and often knows less than Aragorn although he is so much older.... Galadriel is an exile but her people are Silvan. She is the most powerful elf remaining in Middle Earth. Part of her power is bound in the ring and will be lost with it. If she goes into the west her relative status will also be lower - instead of being a queen she will be subject again to the Vala (this is a simplification but the full gory details are in the Silmarillion- which I am assuming you haven't yet read).

The other part of the answer is that even if she stays, she will not be able to hold back time. The lives of elves are linked to the existance of the world (Arda). As long as the world lasts they are not truly deathless, and if they are slain they may take up physical bodies again. Whereas the spirits of men are released from the confines of the world when they die. However although they do not die they do change. If they remained in Middle Earth, the spirits of the elves would eventually "burn" out their bodies and they would become spirit beings only.
At the time of LOTR the elves are weary of the world. Their endless lives are a burden - the world both changes but also stays the same - for them there is nothing new. They are a people in decline. Either they will leave or they will stay and withdraw to the simple, primitive life and less and less contact with the increasingly dominant race of men and eventually fade away.

This makes sense if you know that Tolkien was trying to create a "Mythology" for England. Elves are immortal - but they are also clearly not any more in evidence in England. Most of the legends and stories we have of elves, fairies, pixies etc are of tiny, flimsy folk, far emoved from the elves of LOTR. To 'fit' the elves must have departed or diminished. First in culture, and presence, and then when they became beings of spirit, their presence might be sensed but their true nature forgotten resulting in the diminished size of the elves of English folklore.

I feel I have made a bad job of this, but I hope some of it may be of use.

[Mithalwen]

And while I rambled others made shorter, sweeter and more to the point posts .... lol

[The Saucepan Man]

By "rustic folk of dell and cave", I suppose that Tolkien meant that those Elves who stayed and did not pass West would be pushed out by Man, the "dominant race" as Mithalwen puts it, and marginalised to the lonely, uninhabited places of the world, gradually to fade out of physical existence.

Hobbits and Dwarves were to suffer much the same fate, although they would not "burn out" like Elves, but rather gradually die out. Ot at least that would be the case with Dwarves, who are characterised by a low reproduction rate. Tolkien would have us believe (in the opening to The Hobbit) that Hobbits are still with us, only they are even more skilled at hiding themselves away from the "Big Folk" than they were at the time of the War of the Ring.

[burrahobbit]

Contrast the lifestyles of the Elves of Aman, Nargothrond, and Mirkwood. In Aman they all live like kings in big awesome houses etc. Then Nargothrond, a big fancy cave kingdom. Not quite as nice as Aman, but still pretty fancy. Mirkwood doesn't sound quite so elegant, what with elves passing out in the wine cellar, all drunk as can be. Etc etc on down the years they become less like kings and more like country folk.

It's aso important to keep in mind that Tolkien does not view being rustic as a bad thing. He himself refered to the Gaffer as rustic, while he is clearly someone to be respected for just that reason.

[HerenIstarion]

This being burra's first post since April! (Modern Elvish)

Welcome back, nice to see you around again

To give you a slight resemblance of being on topic:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Galadriel created Lothlorien through the power of her ring

Being a pedant I am, I'd rather that you've chosen word 'maintained' or similar instead of 'created'. Esle being true, of course

[Mithalwen]

I don' think that is quite fair HI: Lothlorien as it exists at the time of LOTR could be said to be Galadriel's creation. There may have been woods before but Lothlorien is not any old woods. The mallorns which define Lorien physically are there as a result of her power ("I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold and leaves of gold there grew" [Music and Magic in ME Anyone :P]), she is so integral to the place that it is deserted and desolate by the time of Arwen's death, little more than a century after her departure. I think it is worth remembering that Lothlorien (Dream flower) is not the original name. The Lorien we see is the flower or product of Galadriel's imagination. Without her, it is not the same place.

[HerenIstarion]

touché. sub-created, than

[Elianna]

Saw this poem and thought of this thread. I'll skip the first stanza for space and copyright reasons.

Heritage
By James Still

…I cannot leave. I cannot go away.

Being of these hills, being one with the fox
Stealing into the shadows, one with the new-born foal,
The lumbering ox drawing green beech logs to mill,
One with the destined feet of man climbing and descending
And one with death rising to bloom again, I cannot go.
Being of these hills, I cannot pass beyond. (sic italized)

This can be applied to the elves in a way. Because the elves had been so close to nature while living in Middle-earth, they became too attached to leave. Then because they could not leave, they became even closer to nature (oh the victious cycle!), and therefore became a "rustic folk."

[burrahobbit]

I fail to see how a poem by Joe Random Fella applies to the conception of Tolkien's Elves, or how living in Aman makes one any less close to nature.

[Alchisiel]

Well then ask why the poem is relevant, don't just dismiss someone's post as useless.

So Elianna, why do you think this poem is relevant to the topic we're discussing?

[Boromir88]

Elianna,

This can be applied to the elves in a way. Because the elves had been so close to nature while living in Middle-earth, they became too attached to leave. Then because they could not leave, they became even closer to nature (oh the victious cycle!), and therefore became a "rustic folk."

I feel as if that is a rather factual observation. Here is a quote from Lothlorien.

"Some there are among us who sing that the Shadow will draw back, and peace shall come again. Yet I do not believe that the world about us will ever again be as it was of old, or the light of the Sun as it was aforetime. For the Elves, I fear, it will prove at best a truce, in which they pass to the Sea unhindered and leave the Middle-earth for ever. Alas for Lothlorien that I love! It would be a poor life in a land where no mallorn grew. But if there are mallorn-trees beyond the Great Sea, none have reported it."

First off, silly Haldir, in believing that living in Valinor would be a poor life. I say smack him! Anyway, I think this just goes to show Haldir has fallen in love so much with them "mallorn trees," that he actually speaks badly of Valinor, saying "it would be a poor life to live." Again, silly Haldir.

[Elianna]

Burrahobbit:

I never said living in Aman would make one less close to nature. The Elves became closer to the nature of Middle-earth, and did not wish to leave it. I suppose the relavance of my post was to provide a reasoning on why the Elves would choose to stay and dwindle from their former glory.

[HerenIstarion]

Um. Er. Cough..cough...

Me and my long tongue. In cooperation, we have put ourselves into trouble before this. Yet we can't stand aside. I hope you'll forgive my meddling in your affairs at the outset, and let me make a little bit of commentary:

Dear Elianna and Alchisiel, and all who are not yet acquainted with burrahobbit (since he was absent for a long while), you should not get offended at his laconic remarks (often to the point, mind you), as, I believe, they are not expressions of hostility of arrogance, but merely style, or mode of expression he assumed and which fits him well. As I've said, they are often to the point, besides, short does not imply rude or offensive, them being three distinct words

With that, I suggest we could all move on on amicable terms

PS. You're welcome to throw rotten vegetables at yours truly, for interfering, of course

[drigel]

Second off, silly Haldir - where do you think mallorn trees originated>? hehe
I would say that the elves that chose to stay in ME used free will, no?

[Mithalwen]

I don't want to reopen wounds but I think the poem, does raise a relevant point.
For the Noldorin exiles, going to Valinor is going home, for the Silvan elves it is not. However wonderful it is, it is not home - Legolas even seems to regard Galadriel's message as "speaking of his death". I think there is a strong sense of the importance of "home" in Tolkien's work. So much of the tragedy is in the displacement of individuals and peoples. Look at the deep desire of the dwarves to return to their ancient homes in Moria and Erebor and the continuing nostalgia among the dunedain for Numenor. The premature decline and death of Finduilas (mother of Faramir and Boromir) is linked in part to her displacement from Dol Amroth and there are many other examples.

I have been lucky enough to travel around much of the world and have lived abroad and may do so again - but the idea of severing my ties permanently with the UK and in particular the rather beautiful area where I grew up and to which I have returned, somewhat horrific - even though I spend a lot of time plotting escape.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

For the Noldorin exiles, going to Valinor is going home, for the Silvan elves it is not. However wonderful it is, it is not home - Legolas even seems to regard Galadriel's message as "speaking of his death"

This is something that has always struck me. Tolkien does say somewhere that all the Elves feel dran to the West, & even the Sindar would feel that desire if something caused it to awaken in them. Yet it would not be a desire for 'home'. What this 'desire' would be is difficult to say. My fanfic 'Orophin Dreams of the Waters of Awakening' was my attempt to deal with this very issue, & I tried to explore the nature of the two conflicting deisres - of the West & of home. How well I achieved that aim is another thing entirely. But I do think its worth considering.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

Tolkien does say somewhere that all the Elves feel dran to the West, & even the Sindar would feel that desire if something caused it to awaken in them. Yet it would not be a desire for 'home'.

The quote which forms the basis of this thread implies that there were Elves who remained in Middle-earth. I wonder whether that was because the desire was not awoken in them or because it was not sufficiently strong in them to wrench them away from the land that was their home. Did some Elves just not feel the 'pull' as much as others?

[drigel]

Avari: I would think that if one feels compelled to refuse the summons of the Valar at the onset, there is not much else that could persuade one. The only factor time would have, is if possibly there had been enough tragedy or suffering to an individual, that the decision to leave the corporal world is made.

[Rimbaud]

SpM - I think the point is that the Elves had distinct groupings, with differing opinions, as is natural - and also that, in this instance, free will over-rode the effect of the 'pull'.