Tolkien's "Myths Transformed"

[lindil]

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What do people think of JrrT's idea in HoME[ X]-Morgoth's Ring of
the abandonment of the &quot;Flat Earth &quot; and the tale Sun and the Moon being an offshoot of the 2Trees
of Valinor ere they died?
Should any revision of theSilmarillion [authorized or otherwise] take these into account or would it be better to retain these older and deeply embedded traditons?


</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/23/00 9:26:21 am

[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

I, for one, would be interested to hear the conception in a little more detail. I don't have the volume in question and don't expect to acquire it in the immediately foreseeable future. Could you summarize the idea a little less summarily than you already did? Maybe use little bit of apt quotation?

</p>

[lindil]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

Slow typer that I am, I was afraid we would get to these type of details!

OK on page 370-375 the prof says&quot; The making of the Sun and the Moon MUST [italicized in book ]occur long befire the coming of the elves: and CANNOT [again] be made to be after the death of the 2 trees - if that occurred in any connection w/ the sojourn of the noldor in valinor .
the time allowed is too short. Neither could there be woods and flowers &amp;c. on earth , if there had been no light since the over throw of the lamps!&quot;

and then I will summarize a replacement outline from p. 376
Melkor will &quot;disarray&quot; the sun so that there will be extreme hot and cold [instead of lamps -presumably] the valar then make the moon to counteract this which melkor promptly attacks - He contemplates having M attack or ravish[?!] Aren {maiden of the sun}
who then leaves arda altogether.
M sneaks back onto ME and builds Utumno and the Valar cannot easily ovecome it

2 Trees are then made and the var become selfishly {his words } valinorcentric and ignore Mid -Earth

in the are's where the elves are to awaken M darkens the sky so that ther is onla dim twilight- coming from the light of valinor in the west.
the valar manage to rend M's darkness and the stars come out &quot;terribly &quot; bright all this just as the elves are awakening - so that they see first darkness then extreme starlight - M covers uit back up and the elves are still thus associated w/ the stars and twilight in west.
then battle and captivity w/ morgoth
Men must awake while M is still in arda -because of their &quot; fall&quot;

this is gone into in detail in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth { also in same volume and this was intended by Tolkien to be an Appendix to Silm.- if I recall aright- anyway it is incredibly beautiful and profound theology}

there are more details and manuscript variants but that is the main outline as far as I have studied it. One other note is that JRRT toyed w/ the idea that the versions we know as
&quot;The Silmarillion &quot; could have been versions that changed in the telling as men got a hold of them.
I hope that gives every one who doesn't have the books a bit to chew on -not too mention a good reason to get them { vol. 10 -12 atleast}
an edited note: on page 383. CRRT says&quot; It may be , though I have no other evidence on the question one way or the other that he came to perceive from such experimental writing as this text that the old structure was too comprehensive , too interlocked in all its parts, indeed had its roots too deep too withstand such a ... surgery.&quot;
however...
JRRT says on P.389 &quot; the making of the SUn after the Death of the trees is not only impossible &quot;mythology' now - especially since the Valar must be supposed to know the truth about the structure of Ea{ and not make mythical guesses like men}... it is also IMpossible chronologically in the narrative.&quot;

He also has the light of the &quot;unfallen&quot;sun
{ before melkor's ravishment of the sun maia} be reposited in the Trees and thence after there destruction only preserved in the silmarills.
I am afraid my summaries do not do justice to the texts -so may that inspire those who are interested to...




</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/23/00 9:01:39 am

[Mithadan]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

If I recall correctly, JRRT also posited that the two trees became necessary because the clouds and murk of Morgoth covered Ea so that the sun and moon were obscured. This lends more credence to the Valar becoming &quot;Valacentric&quot; -- they had light so they didn't worry about Middle Earth. I think JRRT was really struggling with this issue and never thought it all the way through.

His concern was that the elves, having lived in Valinor, would certainly have known the truth about the sun and moon as opposed to the myth of their creation. If the tales come from the elves, then the &quot;Narsilion&quot; -- the creation of the sun and moon -- would not be part of their history (unless they were pulling the legs of man).

The Narsilion myth dates back to the Lost Tales. It appears that JRRT became dissatisfied with this erroneous bit of cosmology and began looking for ways to change it. He wanted to eliminate the flat earth myth and make it more in line with reality.

He had a good handle on the problems and came up with potential solutions. Problems included: (1) if the sun and moon were part of the creation of Ea, why would the trees be needed; (2) where to place Aman if the earth is round; (3) how to adjust the Akallabeth and the removal of Valinor from the circles of the earth; and (4) what about Earendil? Potential solutions: (1) make the Narsilion a primitive human explanation of the sun and moon (but the elves would still know, why wouldn't they tell the Edain?);(2) make the earth round and create a need for the trees through the murks of Morgoth (why wouldn't Manwe just use the winds to blow it away?). JRRT also seemed to recognize that this fundamental change would probably reduce the importance of Varda. This conception would also mean that the wars in Beleriand would be fought under Morgoth's murk and both the sun and moon and stars would be obscured.

Also, after Morgoth was chained at the end of the War of Wrath (I think I have the right name) the murk would retreat making the trees less important. Why would the slaying of the trees have such an impact if the sun and moon were around? The &quot;Darkening of Valinor&quot; would also have to change.

JRRT probably never satisfactorily resolved these issues. The extent of the rewrite of the Silm. would have been horrendous. I wouldn't want to take on this mess if JRRT couldn't resolve it. But it would be fun to play with these issues. Maybe the trees came first and the sun and moon later. Maybe Morgoth was powerful enough to enshroud all of Ea when he was in Utumno, but less strong later so that he needed Thangorodrim to make the murk.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

Having not read the book, my only info on this subject is from the previous posts. But let me see if I get it right before I post my thoughts.

JRRT wanted to have the Sun and Moon created long before the Children arrived, in fact before the Two Trees were grown. He also wanted to be rid of the flat earth concept.

Is this correct?

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[lindil]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

He came to feel that therer was no way the valar could be ignorant of basic facts of the created world.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

Well, that makes sense. The Valar had sung the world into being. And though there were things that Eru had kept from their Vision, the World itself was theirs to control. It would seem hard to believe that the Valar would be ignorant of anything so simple as the geography and shape of Arda.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[lindil]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

but as mithadan outlined nicely that leaves quite a thorny situation to work through in terms of a viable New Silmarillion-actually prob. the most difficult .bur\t the outlines read as some of the more compressed sections of the SIlm . Alot of it is that we have gotten quite used to The Silm and to radically rework a fundamental cosmological tale as the narsilion is daunted both CrrT and his father- so the only solutons I can see from here are to:
1] Leave the cosmology as is and only expand upon the stories W/ materials written that are largely if not entirely free of any conradictions.
[easiest ?]
2] use JRRT,s outlines for the tale and flesh them out as much as the remaining material allows -doing an absolute minimum [if any ] of putting in sentences that are not there.-such as Crrt had to do w/ the final phases of the hurin/doriath cycle.
2b] pass off the scetchyness of the tale as incomplete &quot;translations from the elvish&quot; {resorting to a fiction JRRT never intended - but he never intended to leave the Silm&gt; such a mess and his son {who I recently read was specifically asked to wrap it all up did a job which he now considers seriously flawed .because it leaves us w/ these very tangles.
3] leave it all alone -the least interesting of the 'solutions' which does NOT fulfill JRRT's hopes and wishes for the heart of his legendarium.
------------
I am somewhat new to the HoME series except for lost tales 1&amp;2 and the bits I would read at bookstores as they came out - But I am pretty well versed in the Silm/UT and so it is from the view of these 4 books that the idea of a fuller version of a non-conflicting Silmarillion as bounced in the back of my head for the last 10 years or so [ever since UT really]
It was only when I started to read Morgoth's ring and {11 &amp;12} that I realized what a stickey wicket it is.
For CRRT I get the impression that he would do the whole Unfinished/History/SIlm. business different - but not how he would - as to why he hasn't - he is prob. pretty old and just as his father did at retirement lacks the urge/drive/need or whatever to go at it for a 3rd{!} time-can't blame him a bit and as many have expressed we are all grateful for the immense labor of putting [nearly ] all of it out here as has never been done [to ] my mind for any author before [and prob. won't again!]- But gratitude aside we are still lft w/the
dilemna of pt. 3
----------------
I suppose I myself have 2 answers to this .

1]left to my own devices I will prob. just make notes in tne UT/HoME books as to where various stories and details can be inserted during a private [or publec] reading of the silm.
and leave the narsillion business out of it {as CRRT did}
2] if other folks were as concerned and wanted to labor away over the years a council could -I hope - hash out a group consensus{ but at this point getting enough people who have the needed books seems no small thing ! ; }
so to follow TolkiensiIdea to transform the Myth's- or not this is the[ a] question.


</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

I have followed your posts here and your go around with MM. To go forward with your idea might be worthwhile even just to the extent that it might spark some lively debates and allow people to make up their own minds concerning inconsistencies and materials missing from the Silm. For example, I have thought about the topic here -- flat earth vs. round, etc -- on many occaissions and believe JRRT wanted to modify his myths. The question remains, how did he intend to deal with this issue? The problem is we don't know. So would we want to predict what he would have done or just come up with an internally consistent story?

With respect to the Silm. &quot;rewrite&quot;, you would need ground rules and concensus on the scope of changes. Do you only want to deal with inconsistencies or do you want to &quot;fill in&quot; what is only outlined in sketchy form? There is room for expanded or even new tales, but this would greatly expand the scope of the work. For example, someone could flesh out the story of Galadriel and Celeborn. The tale of Finwe and his first wife could be clarified. A description of Angband could be assembled (done by JRRT only in Lost Tales if I recall). A good starting point might be to go through some of HoME and create a list of inconsistencies or points where CT voices concern that what was published is not what JRRT intended. Then you could decide how far to go. Call it the Annotated Silmarillion or something like that. BTW, I agree with MM. While there might be great initial interest, commitment is another story. Also expect great criticism (everyone has an opinion and some are louder than others). Time permitting, I would help.

</p>

[lindil]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

time permitting. that is the rub for me also. but I am in no hurry.
MM suggested multiple versions[ ?!?] an idea I don't think increases the already dubious practicalities- but it does reflect a few different legit. ways of dealing w/ it. So taking that as a starter. let us posit the possibilites and pick one for ourselves and encourage any who dissent to take up one of the others or add yet another.{ I am getting vague forshadowings of potential schisms already
: { just pondering this !
but nothing tried nothing gained.
so...let us try this on for size
1]amplification of existing published Silm
w/out radical cosmology shifts
2]modification of Silm according t's last recorded intentions {as in myths trans. } but using only his writings{ and
the barest of absolutely needed connecting links ???}
3] as per 2 but w/ folks contributing material to flesh it out as we guess T. might have done { as CRRT did w/ Doriath-Hurin finale}
4] ?
now I also posed the question at he white council about a home for this endeavor and more importantly for know I think [as long as it is in the preliminary stages]
getting the idea out to all possible pages- I am completely ignorant of tolkienboard /cyber protocoland such -any thoughts on that esp. from our esteemed Chief ?

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/25/00 2:45:34 pm

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

The Barrow-Downs has the room, the will and the ability to host such a project. I would like very much to see such writings evolve right here at the Downs.

This Wraith also has enough personal interest in it to contribute to the project (to the best of my abilities -
though web duties tend to eat into my Tolkien time).

So, with that said, I offer to set up a web presence for this idea. I can take care of all of the web/internet duties but would rely on on all of you for the actual literary contributions.

Reply here with your thoughts....



The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Taimar]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

I have read with interest both Lindil`s proposal to `rewrite` the Silmarillion and the subsequent thoughts of other forum members. This would clearly be an enormous undertaking with several obvious difficulties. Everyone has their own point of view about the ME canon, especially those parts which exist in several contradictory versions and tying these opposing views neatly together would be a well-nigh impossible task. However, as Mithadan stated, I think that the project would be worthwhile, if only for the undoubted interest it would generate. For what it is worth, here are my thoughts on how it could best be tackled.

I think that a chronology of events should be compiled, starting from the Ainulindale and ceasing at the end of the First Age. While there would undoubtedly be arguments over this, I think that it would possible to arrive at a chronology most could agree on. Indeed, I have seen several comprehensive First Age timelines on the Internet already.

Once this was completed, I think the next task would be to decide titles for each chapter and to prepare a synopsis, no more than a few hundred words long, which would briefly outline the material to be included in each. If this could be successfully agreed upon work could begin on the actual compilation of the work. It is here that the main difficulty in achieving a genuine consensus would arise.

There is no doubt that any serious effort to produce a `canonical` version of Quenta Silmarillion would generate intense feelings from the Tolkien Community on the Net, both positive and negative. I therefore think that it would be important to state clearly from the outset that this effort would be OUR interpretation of JRR`s work and that people would be perfectly entitled to disagree with what we produce. Indeed, taking account of such criticism would have to be an integral part of the process.

I think that if we are serious about attempting this an editorial board of no more than three or four people should be formed, who would have the final say upon what would go into the work and what would be left out. A larger group of perhaps fifteen or twenty people could form a discussion group whose main role would be an advisory one.

I now come to what is possibly the most difficult issue of all. Who is going to write the `missing` segments? Producing material of a consistently suitable quality would be extremely difficult. It would not, in my opinion, be a task suited to even a small group of people. I think that one person (appointed by the editorial board) would have to take this task on alone. The effort involved would be huge and the vitriol heaped upon this individual by critics of the project would be considerable. Take a look at the `imaginary quotes` board on this very forum. I think some of the quotes are very good, but does anyone here write well enough to be considered for this?

As for myself, I own The Sil., UT and all of the HoME series up to and including Morgoth`s Ring. I will shortly be buying Volumes XI and XII. I would be prepared to act as a member of the larger `advisory` group, but I would not consider myself qualified to act as an `editor`.

Regards,

Taimar.

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

This project doesn't have to be the 'Rewrite the Canon Group'. It should be something more like the 'Canonic Studies and Theories Group'. I can see where it would turn into a huge write and rewrite/argue and re-argue. It would be expansive and varied but very fun, educational and entertaining to read and discuss.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[lindil]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

Barrow -Wight,Taimar,Mithadan &amp;
Galpsi -I am thrilled that there seems to be enough zeal to give it a go. As we all suspected and stated just the preliminaries alone will take us awhile to iron out .{m.martinez put a nice post up on this at White Council I think we all should read re: this}
: }

-----
C.-Wight is it ok to drag other peoples qoute's here[e.g. m.m.'s post mentioned above- and is it [is there]standard procedure for one to get there permission first and... should I ask these sort of tech Q,s via email or do you want to publ icly to respond.
and thanks for the extremely generous offer of hosting. I have no other place in mind { I have only been here the w. council and ent moot}
but it could be there are other considerations I don't even know of[ { I hope not!}]- but maybe this is something to be discussed. But as an ininterim I would be all for say a , stopgap
&quot; A NewSilmarillion ?! : Proposed drafts,Canon Studies and Theories.
section on the downs { be sure to include a special spot for all those who want the whole thing shot down right away! : }
as For all the other suggestions I want to take bit of time and sort through them and then make a formal recomendation as to stucture /procedureswhich will include { I hope] all the ideas listed so far- and then we can all sound off /vote offer amendments.
If this is agreeable - while I am doing this maybe someone who has far more web dexterity than I can spread the word to any and all[ or at least the 'major ' pages
{ is this kosher? } and let them know what is up
w/ our project and if they want to get in on {almost } the ground floor now is the time and that the preliminaries are taking up temporary{?} residence{refuge should I say?} at the downs .
Mithadan would you mind starting on the proposal of yours re: a search of HoME for &quot;points where what is published [are] not what the JRRT intended.
Taimar can you give us some links for creation/ !st age chronologies you mentioned - I would love to see how they handle all the variations!
please forgive me folks if I am being a bit imperious - but it seems as if for the time being someone can set the pace for rowing till we get under sail[ boy - I had to search for that analogy! ]May God and JRRT himself look down from heaven and bless our humble [if bold} labors. Amen

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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The New Silmarillion

We should ask for permission before we take direct quotes from other boards or at least give full credit to the poster and where the quote was found.... Another idea is to get them to share their ideas at this board. ... Once we get a few of the basics lined up I will create a separate forum specifically for this project.

I think that the evolution of this project should be hashed out through the new forum I'll create. It will allow visitors to get involved.

I like the sub title - Proposed Draft, Canon Studies and Theories .... not so sure about the A New Silmarillion... how about An Expanded Sil. or A Revised Sil. .... just suggestion .... majority rules (once we establish what a majority is <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> )

Let's take a volunteer for spreading the word .... any takers? (please state your intended method, please) .... but let's not jump the gun.... a little more discussion before we go telling the world what we're thinking of doing... Nothing turns people off like looking at something that is 'under construction' (My Encyclopedia is the perfect exapmple of this - take my word <img src=frown.gif ALT=""> I hear it all the time).

And lastly (for the moment)... does anyone object to housing this project at The Barrow-Downs?

Thanks



The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Mithadan]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The New Silmarillion

I think The Barrow Downs would be a fine place to begin this endeavor. But lets look at logistics for a second.

A First Age chronology exists in several forms in HoME. The latest chronology is, I think, in either The Lost Road or the Shaping of Middle Earth (Morgoth's Ring didn't have one did it?). The real question is where does the existing chronology differ from what was published and why?

Lindil, what you have asked me to take on requires a review of at least the Silm., Letters, UT, and three or more volumes of HoME. Let's see..... professional and family obligations aside, I could guarantee that I could have that done by, say, January, 2002. Seriously, I could probably get it done earlier, but a better course might be to put together a list of better-known &quot;regrets&quot; voiced by CT/JRRT. This would give us enough to talk about for a space, and the reading could be divided up to be done thereafter. Once, again we need to agree upon scope. For example, The Lost Tales have somewhat expanded versions of some stories that exist in outline only in the Silm. Imagine a modernized version of the Fall of Gondolin! Or do we restrict ourselves to annotations. Said otherwise, are we preparing footnotes or text (I'm also ignoring legal niceties at this point)? What about material which is strictly a matter of geneology or lingistics? I could put together a &quot;hit list&quot; in relatively short order. However, it would not be fair to participants to launch a significant undertaking without knowing what final product we wish to produce (&quot;Frodo, would you be so kind as to take a little trip with your ring? There's a fine lad.&quot.

We may also want to consider hashing this out outside of this thread. Either start a new thread so that everyone knows what's going on, or hash things out separately and then post for comments and volunteers.

</p>

[lindil]

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Re: The New Silmarillion

Apologies Mithadan ,
&quot;regrets&quot; was all I had in mind - not an annotated list of inconsistencies
etc. A hit list is exactly what I was thinking .

The Lost Tales 'fall of gondolin 'was exactly what got me thinking about this when I read it in days of yore.

the footnote /text debate-
if I understand by footnotes you to mean something like:
use silm chap. 2 for the first 3 paragraphs then insert 1st 2 lines of LT 2 page 34.then UTch. 4 3rd and 4th sent. etc.
then yes-this is a legal issue on which our chief wraith will have much to say { or I should say - the final say} I have already a worded disclaimer as I have seen at the begining of star wars fanfiction
which I can post shortly - but as to wether this veneer of pseudo-legality{ more like a plea really } is worth its virtual weight is dubious at best - this point may well have to be a judgement call ,although some of us may have a better idea of precedents esp. in cyber-middle-earth.{this is where permission would be so convienient!}


In terms of where to put linguistics and genealogies { and to this I would add chronologies} I say a set of appendices is the most obvious answer.

the bigger question of what are we aiming to produce ; this I see to be the first item for thecouncil once the procedural questions are settled.

</p>

[Taimar]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

Lindil, the best First Age chronology I have seen was written by Michael Martinez and can be found http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a90011.../Index.html?YYhere</a>

Look into the http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/library/classiccourt/77/Mirror of Desire.</a> </p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000099>Taimar</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/black_ball.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 7/25/00 6:41:38 am

[Mithadan]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

Lindil, copyright law is not my forte. However, I do know that we should not be copying any portion of the Silm. or any other book. Analysis/criticism is probably OK. I suspect I've misunderstood that portion of your post.

BTW, this is an excellent excuse for people who have never delved into HoME to do so.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

Exactly. Though this was not my idea and I am just jumping on the bandwagon, I think that our end product should be a selection of articles, essays and discussions focused on specific points of the mythology. We can't just cut and paste all of the sources into one conglomerate story (at least not legally).

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[lindil]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

Taimar- thanks for the !st age link to M .Martinez
I am guessing that the council/forum will want to start w/ &quot;the Ainulindale&quot; once we getthriugh the preliminaries and to the texts themselves- so any summation of that might prove use ful.


</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/25/00 3:27:20 pm

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

I'm not familiar with what was discussed at the White Council. I went there to read it but was unable to find the appropriate threads.

Going with lindil's last, the Council (or whatever we call it) will have an open forum here at the board to discuss any and everything. I propose we split existing The Silmarillion... forum off into a category of its own (the current categories are ME Discussions and ME Fun and Games). This category can have as many sub-forums as we like under it. Each of these sub-forums would have one or more moderators to control what goes on in them.

Advertisements, schedules, announcements and any/all products created will be published (made available for reading/downloading) at The Barrow-Downs.

How's that sound?

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[lindil]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

I had an urge to print all the substantive posts from the white council thread. which was good -because when I went back that and many others had been pruned.

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[Saulotus]

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Re: tolkien 's &quot;myths transformed&quot;

Well dudes, not quite sure where this belongs, but here's something to chew on. I'll paste in quotes from a post to illustrate something I said earlier about Christopher missing obvious conclusions and whatnot.

&gt;&gt;Problems included: (1) if the sun and moon were part of the creation of Ea, why would the trees be needed&lt;&lt;

Because the dome of Valinor covered VALINOR not Valmar. It was to protect Valinor from the 'corrupted' sun.

&gt;&gt;(2) where to place Aman if the earth is round&lt;&lt;

Another dimension would be the modern description. Unless ya want to have a continental shadow upon an ungodly section of the planet.

&gt;&gt;(3) how to adjust the Akallabeth and the removal of Valinor from the circles of the earth&lt;&lt;

Does it need it? In what way does it? Akallabeth is mannish. It can stay as is or change without effect.

&gt;&gt;(4) what about Earendil? Potential solutions&lt;&lt;

He sailed the sky until the Atani reached Numenor. Then went bye-bye.

&gt;&gt;make the Narsilion a primitive human explanation of the sun and moon (but the elves would still know, why wouldn't they tell the Edain?); make the earth round and create a need for the trees through the murks of Morgoth (why wouldn't Manwe just use the winds to blow it away?).&lt;&lt;

Manwe did. That's when the Elves awoke. The lamps were ditched early, but not the Trees. Sun and Moon from trees are perfectly acceptable; as lights for VALINOR. not for the earth. Even works well for the illustration of the Halls of Manwe Tolkien did. This makes the explanation used in NARSILION nearly perfect as is. Location of Gates of Morning and Doors of Night? Are they truly needed? Perhaps after Valinor is removed from the circles of the world. Would this enter into mannish lore? Nope.

Well dudes, this is just a very small sampling of what I was talking about. There's PLENTY more.

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[Mithadan]

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Welcome

In the absence of Lindil and since Rkittle hasn't yet stepped in, welcome. Don't have time to respond in detail yet. Will soon. Any suggestions on format of this project? That's also a matter of debate at present.

</p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: Welcome

Suggestions on format? What exactly do ya mean here? Ok, guessin on intent here; If it were me; I'd start usin his last writings, work backward, then when a contradiction occurs exclude the older situation. Would I try to work in every detail? Nope. Could I work in every detail? Probably. Would it be as good? Nope. Would it be true? Nope. I think it would be better as fragments, if that's all that's available. Can it be made consistent? Yup. I think the only parts that truly need attention are the portions of the SILMARILLION. MM suggests that HOBBIT and LOTR need revision also. I don't see this as required or desireable. The stories are a progression of Hobbit knowledge. HOBBIT is say equivalent to the Hobbits Grade School understanding of the Outside world, and written as such. LOTR is equivalent to High School and SILMARILLION is College level. Must they share equal footing in knowledge? Nope. Actually destroys the historical backstory on Hobbits and their growth if they do. Do the mannish histories such as NARN, AKALLABETH, TALE OF TINUVIEL, FALL OF GONDOLIN and related items need to be utterly correct and in total harmony with the elvish histories? Nope. They're mannish. Do the Elvish histories need to be correct and harmonious within themselves? Yuppers. Can they exist side-by-side with mannish tales? Youbetcha. For the elvish versions of the mannish tales, I'd probably rely mostly on the lays. Could the elvish and mannish tales at times contradict each other? Yuppers, stories handed down are like that, but the elvish would be true due to the memories of the elves. Would the elves particularly care about every mannish action or nuance and remember them? Nope. Is this what you were asking for?

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