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Old 06-07-2016, 04:10 PM   #41
Gothmog, LoB
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Sure, I get that. The point was just that above a lot of talk years ago seemed to be basing doubt on the Feanorian heritage of Celebrimbor on the whole Elessar story.

I just wanted to point out that The Elessar is not necessarily at odds with the Feanorian story - or can be made fit the Feanorian story with very little editorial work.

Arguments like 'the text would have mentioned this or that' if Celebrimbor (or Galadriel or Gil-galad) had been there aren't very convincing to me because the focus of the stories as we know them isn't on those characters. And, after all, the stories aren't finished.

We'll not get everything together but if Celebrimbor was at Nargothrond with Celegorm and Curufin then he could not possibly also have been at Gondolin to make the Elessar.

And if you cut all that stuff about Idril bearing the stone in Gondolin then the story more or less is gone.
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Old 06-08-2016, 10:26 AM   #42
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Let us first collect some facts:
A) Celebrimbor is descendant form Feanor. This is stated in the preface of The Tale of Years form LotR. But it entered only in the second edition of 1966. According to our rules this is to be used, as long as we cannot demonstrate it to be only a ‘slip of the pen’ (seeing the scanty information we have that option seems impossible to me).

B) If we take the sources with second highest priority, these are twofold (see also C). The following note is from 1968 or later (Eldarin, hands, Fingers and Numerals, VT47):
Quote:
Common Eldarin had a base KWAR 'press together, squeeze, wring'. A derivative was *kwara: Quenya quar, Telerin par, Sindarin paur. This may be translated 'fist', though its chief use was in reference to the tightly closed hand as in using an implement or a craft-tool rather than to the 'fist' as used in punching. Cf. the name Celebrin-baur > Celebrimbor. This was a Sindarized form of Telerin Telperimpar (Quenya Tyelpinquar). It was a frequent name among the Teleri, who in addition to navigation and ship-building were also renowned as silversmiths. The famous Celebrimbor, heroic defender of Eregion in the Second Age war against Sauron, was a Teler, one of the three Teleri who accompanied Celeborn into exile. He was a great silver-smith, and went to Eregion attracted by the rumours of the marvellous metal found in Moria, Moria-silver, to which he gave the name mithril. In the working of this he became a rival of the Dwarves, or rather an equal, for there was great friendship between the Dwarves of Moria and Celebrimbor, and they shared their skills and craft-secrets. In the same way Tegilbor was used for one skilled in calligraphy (tegil was a Sindarized form of Quenya tekil 'pen', not known to the Sindar until the coming of the Noldor).
One the first glance this contradicts the first statement, as Christopher Tolkien observe in his comment:
Quote:
When my father wrote this he ignored the addition to Appendix B in the Second Edition, stating that Celebrimbor 'was descended from Feanor'; no doubt he had forgotten that that theory had appeared in print, for had he remembered it he would undoubtedly have felt bound by it.
But does that make the note completely worthless? And is it really a contradiction? Only taken into account what we have listed here up to this point, I could say: ‘Feanor had only sons, but one of the sons could have had a girl-child married to a Teler and having mothered Celebrimbor.’ Then he would be a Teler and descendant form Feanor. It might even be enough for Celebrimbor to be counted about the Teleri to have his mother coming from that tribe and living most of his (early) life among the people of Aqualonde. (The question of Celeborn as a Teler to provide Galadriel with a ship for an independent journey should not be discussed here. It is an important question to be answered, but it warrants a thread of its own.)

C) The next information described as ‘of much the same time’, written on paper provided Tolkien in 1969 comes from Of Men and Dwarves (HoME XII; Part 2; Late Writings):
Quote:
Now in Eregion not only the Feanorian Script, which had long become a mode of writing generally used (with various adaptations) among all 'lettered' peoples in contact with the Numenorean settlements, but also the ancient 'runic' alphabet of Daeron elaborated [> used] by the Sindar was known and used. This was, no doubt, due to the influence of Celebrimbor, a Sinda who claimed descent from Daeron.
This is a clear contradiction. Not only that I can’t see any believable way to have Celebrimbor a descendant of Feanor and Daeron, I can not even see how he could claim descent from Daeron at all. So the quote can teach us that Tolkien used some freeness in talking about descent: Since Daeron had no children, Celbrimbor in this Version must be a relative of a later generation, like a nephew. The only thing that I would draw from this is that Celebrimbor was probably the teacher of the Dwarves concerning runes.

D) A note by Tolkien in one of his copies of the 1966 edition of the LotR read thus (HoME XII; Part 2; Late Writings; Of Men and Dwarves; Note 7):
Quote:
What then was his parentage? He must have been descended from one of Feanor's sons, about whose progeny nothing has been told.
How could he be? Feanor's only descendants were his seven sons, six of whom reached Beleriand. So far nothing has been said of their wives and children. It seems probable that Celebrinbaur (silverfisted, > Celebrimbor) was son of Curufin, but though inheriting his skills he was an Elf of wholly different temper (his mother had refused to take part in the rebellion of Feanor and remained in Aman with the people of Finarphin). During their dwelling in Nargothrond as refugees he had grown to love Finrod and his wife, and was aghast at the behaviour of his father and would not go with him. He later became a great friend of Celeborn and Galadriel.
A second note written in to the same copy and given in the same place reads:
Quote:
Maedros the eldest appears to have been unwedded, also the two youngest (twins, of whom one was by evil mischance burned with the ships); Celegorm also, since he plotted to take Luthien as his wife. But Curufin, dearest to his father and chief inheritor of his father's skills, was wedded, and had a son who came with him into exile, though his wife (unnamed) did not. Others who were wedded were Maelor, Caranthir.
This notes are the basis for the editorial addition to Sil77 as Christopher Tolkien said in his comments.
The wife of Finrod needs not be discussed here. But here we have a clear storyline of Celebrimbor’s life: Born in Valinor, gone into exile with his father, and staying with him until Curufin was expelled from Nargothrond. It corosponds nicely to A) but is not compatible to B) or C).

E) Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn is the next text to look into. Christopher Tolkien does not provide us with an exact date when it was written, but he adds it to ‘the same phase (so to call it)’ of his father’s writing as the Appendix B of LotR. As the preamble is not mention in the texts before the typescript going to the publisher, this must refer to 1955-6 or slightly before. Anyhow it is earlier than A) to D). I here quote it from HoME XII; Part 2; Late Writings; Of Men and Dwarves; Note 7 were it is given more fully:
Quote:
Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. He was of Noldorin origin, and one of the survivors of Gondolin, where he had been one of Turgon's greatest artificers - but he had thus acquired some taint of pride and an almost 'dwarvish' obsession with crafts.
A later note to the text states again that Celebrimbor should be made a descendant of Feanor. I agree with Gothmog that a Noldorin origin and being a survivor of Gondolin does not contradict A) and as I have demonstrated B). But the story given here is incompatible with C) and D), which have higher priority.

F) Written at the same time as E) was The Elessar. I will only summarize the text here in respect to Celebrimbors ancestry: It makes Celebrimbor a jewel-smith of Gondolin without giving any farther information.

According to our Principle 1 A) is a given fact.
That said C) must be considered under Principle 2.a as ‘slip of the pen’ or a failure of memorizing what was already in print.
To ignore B) we either have to declare that is incompatible with A) and rule it out on Principle 2.a or we have to call it a proposed change that is not workable for us due to lake of information (Principle 2.b). I am not convinced of either. It does also not help if we decide on ignoring Celeborn as a Teler on Principle 2.a since he has occurred under Principle 1 as a Sindar. In that situation Celebrimbor as Teler might provide us with the opportunity for an independent journey of Galadriel. Which, by the way, could also provide a nice background to Celebrimbor saying in F) to Galadriel ‘But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), …’. Otherwise it is if Galadriels independent journey is rejected. It seems to me fully improbable to a Teler join the host of Fingolfin after the kin slaying of Aqualonde or to journey on his own (without Galadriel) in his own ship to Middle-Erath.
D corresponds nicely to A but has due to our Principles lower priority than B. So D is the option if B is ruled out.
E and F contradict B which has higher priority. But the contradiction is week if we consider mixed ancestry.
If B is ruled out E and F still contradict D which has the higher priority. To use E and F instead of D would require D to fall under Principle 5:
Quote:
5. Information in sources of lower level priority are to be preferred over information in sources of higher level priority where the item of information in source of higher level priority can be reasonably demonstrated to be an error, whether a "slip of the pen" or from inadequate checking of previous writing.
I can’t see how D can fall under Principle 5, especially since E contains a note by Tolkien according to which he planned to change the content to correspond to D.

All that means: to have Celebrimbor in Gondolin we have to make him of mixed Telerin and Feanorian blood, (A and B combined) and have him journey to Middel-Earth together with Galadriel in a boot rescued by them in Aqualonde. How he joined Turgon is not told, but that is not improbable. But it depends in the end on the independent journey of Galadriel.
So in my point of view we must first decide what we do with Galadirel’s independent journey, and then come back to this discussion. However neither text E nor text F are completely out since we still have Principle 6 to work with them:
Quote:
6. The actual words used by J.R.R. Tolkien or the editor or summarizer of his work may only be changed, including change by deletion or addition, when:
a) they are minimally changed to agree with statements elsewhere in the canon recognized as of greater validity or to are replaced with words or phrases from later or alternate restatements of the same material for reasons of consistancy or are changed to agree with alternate phrasings used by Tolkien of the same or better validity
b) they are minimally changed to avoid great awkwardness of expression such as ungrammatical constructions or too great a difference in style from the passage or section/chapter into which they are now to be inserted.
c) they are minimally added to in order to expand a sentence fragments or an incomplete phrase into a construction that fits grammatically in the new environment
d) they are deleted to avoid redundancy in new passages compiled from more than one source
e) they are, in verse passages, minimal changes that do not add new information to the tale, to maintain the proper metre and rhyme or alliterative pattern of the original verse.
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Old 06-08-2016, 01:06 PM   #43
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Hm. I'd be fine with Celebrimbor's Teleri descent if they were also great silver-smiths (I think for the Falmari that would be a late addition but the Sindar are also referred to as being great in that field) a marriage between Curufin and a Teler would be conceivable.

If Celebrimbor had a Teler mother and there was no separate boat for Galadriel and Celeborn then Celebrimbor could still have been with the Noldor - he could have been with Finrod and Galadriel defending the Teleri during the battle at Alqualonde, for instance, and subsequently crossing the ice with them.

Descent means 'descent', there is no way around that. If Celebrimbor were Daeron's descendant then Daeron would have had children. Nephews aren't descendants; if Celebrimbor had been designated as Daeron's 'kinsman' he could have been his nephew or cousin or something like that, but that's not the case there.

However, one could even try to reconcile this with the other account. As far as I recall right now we don't know when exactly Daeron was born (since he no longer is Lúthien's brother). Assuming he came with Thingol to Beleriand during the long march he could have had at least one child (and a wife?) who passed across the sea with Olwe and eventually married Curufin in Aman (or the daughter of that daughter did).

But of course Celebrimbor could never have been a Sinda by birth.

The Galadriel-Celeborn issue should be discussed separately. This thing is very convoluted even in the LotR itself (Nando vs. apparent Sinda origin).
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:21 PM   #44
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Re: Re: .....

I see no reason why Celebrimbor might not have been in Gondolin following the Sack of Nargothrond, unless there is some unrecalled text telling of his whereabouts elsewhere.

We know that some Elves of Nargothrond were taken captive by the sacking army and presumbably made prisoners of Morgoth. But others apparently fled to Doriath. That some sought out the Hidden City is reasonable. Surely at least Celebrimbor should not be thought of as dwelling with his father and the other Fëanorians during their final grim deeds.

The first line of The Elessar need only be changed to &quot;There was in Gondolin a jewel-smith named Celebrimbor of Nargothrond, son of Curufin son of Fëanor, the greatest of that craft among the Noldor after the death of Fëanor.&quot; Later occurrences of &quot;Enerdhil&quot; can be changed to &quot;Celebrimbor&quot; in the account of the first Elessar and the first account of the second Elessar (if it is to be preserved as a variant). For the second account of the second Elessar I suggest emendation of the passage as follows, using italics to indicate words to be removed, and words in square brackets to indicate changes of names:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And Celebrimbor said: 'Where now is the Stone of Eärendil? And Enerdhil who made it is gone.' ' They have passed over Sea,' said Galadriel, 'with almost all fair things else. But must then Middle-earth fade and perish for ever?'
****'This is its fate, I deem,' said Celebrimbor. 'But you know that I love you (though you turned to Celeborn of the Trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if haply by my art your grief can be lessened.' But he did not say to Galadriel that he himself was of Gondolin long ago, and a friend of Enerdhil, though his friend in most things outrivalled him. Yet if Enerdhil had not been then Celebrimbor would have been more renowned. Therefore he took thought and began a long and delicate labour, and so for Galadriel he made the greatest of his works (save the Three Rings only). And it is said that more subtle and clear was the green gem that he made than that of Enerdhil [Eärendil], but yet its light had less power. For whereas that of Enerdhil [Eärendil] was lit by the Sun in its youth, already many years had passed ere Celebrimbor began his work, and nowhere in Middle-earth was the light as clear as it had been, for though Morgoth had been thrust out into the Void and could not enter again, his far shadow lay upon it.<hr></blockquote></p>

This best recounts something about Celebrimbor and Galadriel that has roots with the Kinslaying and Galadriel being "...unfriends with Feanor forever...". It was an important theme that Galadriel was not seduced by Celebrimbor, during Annatar's presence in Eregion. We know as well that Cirdan was wary of Annatar, which naturally allies itself to Galadriel's rebuffing of Celebrimbor's advance. She must have sensed something of wrong in Annatar's relationship with Celebrimbor, and the innate mistrust from knowing the Curse of Mandos as an affliction upon the Sons of Feanor.

That's provided as context.

About the two stories of the Elessar we can never be really sure that those were about Tolkien and his latter emendations as he produced his mythology. However, given the context cited above I find it supports the supposition that there is very little chance, if any at all that Celebrimbor would have any presence in Gondolin.

He was the grandson of Feanor and with a parentage in the 7 sons, I doubt Turgon would pleasantly receive him, especially given Fingolfin's march through the Heclaraxe and their alienation from Feanor (for which Fingolfin went some way to reverse, however, Turgon was very xenophobic, and he threw Eol off the cliffs nigh his city for the death of Aredhel).

So, (if) two green stones ever existed with Celebrimbor's the second (and I'm not sure about this--because it's weird to imagine an Istari bearing the green stone back from Aman), which is how theories of 'the return stone' come about. [though there is a tantalising supposition it *might* have occurred, in a famous short text about Galadriel and Olorin possibly meeting nigh Amon Lanc in southern Mirkwood].


Quote:
"It is not so," said Olorin. "Their eyes are not dimmed nor their hearts hardened. In token of which look upon this!"
*** And he held before her the Elessar, and she looked on it and wondered.
*** And Olorin said, "This I bring to you from Yavanna. Use it as you may, and for a while you shall make the land of your dwelling the fairest place in Middle-earth. But it is not for you to possess. You shall hand it on when the time comes. For before you grow weary, and at last forsake Middle-earth one shall come who is to receive it, and his name shall be that of the stone; Elessar he shall be called."
I find it easier to accept that Celebrimbor made it as a courtship token for Galadriel in the Second Age, which is how she came to be in possession of it. Because of the alienation between Galadriel and Feanor's house, seems also a way for her to distance herself from Celebrimbor, even in death -- ridding herself of the nuisance stalker she must have found Feanor and his offspring.
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Old 12-22-2017, 10:57 PM   #45
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Sorry to ressurect an old thread, but was this issue ever decided? I am personally inclined to the Enerdhil storyline with both narratives of the second Elessar presented as competing theories by loremasters. If we accept this, then there are one or two additons that need to be made to the Fall of Gondolin and the Voyage of Earendil.
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Old 12-23-2017, 09:34 AM   #46
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There is nothing to appologise for. This thread had to be reviewed one day.

No, we did not come to a conclusion in this thread so far. But we might discuss it now since we decisdes about Galadriels journey to Middle-earth. Since she did not rescue a ship but acompianed Felagund over the ice, Celebrimbor is for sure no Teler. That means that text B is ruled out based on principal 2.b.

So we have the clear statement in text A that Celebrimbor is decendant from Feanor and we have text D where we have the details that he is the son of Curufin and a wife of Curufin that stayed with the poeple of Finarfin in Valinor. And that he became a friend of Felagund during the stay of Curufin and Celegrom in Nargothrond and when they were expelled he stayed in that city.

That means Celebrimbor can never have been in Gondolin. How we can with that handle the texts E and / or F under principle 6 has to be discussed.

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Old 12-23-2017, 06:05 PM   #47
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Well, as you have just said, the story we have elsewhere agreed upon precludes him from being in Gondolin at all. This means that E is not usable insofar as it makes him an elf of Gondolin.

As for F, the first (much longer) version meshes perfectly with the decisions we have made elsewhere, giving the making of the Elessar to a new craftsman: Enerdhil, and leaving the role of Celebrimbor until the second coming of the Elessar. Until we reach drafts for Volume II, the second Elessar question may remain unresolved, but as for the qiuestion of the existence of Celebrimbor in Gondolin, as you have said we have already decided this to be impossible. Therefore, the only story we have left is the Enerdhil story, which dovetails quite nicely with all other existing canon.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:04 AM   #48
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I agree that we might use Enerdhil, even so he was replaced in the manuscript by JRR Tolkien.

But I think we must as well skip the story of the Elessar brought bake from Valinor by Gandalf. The story of him visiting Galadriel and giving the stone to here, does not fit the chronology: All the time when Gandalf is around Galadriel was able to use her Ring. So for what would she neede the Elessar? I think that story Comes from a time when the idea about the chronology was quite diffrent. Probabbly when all the Istari came in the Second Age.

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Old 02-13-2018, 03:51 PM   #49
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I have come to think (after also wondering about this version of the Elessar tale) that it's Olórin visiting Galadriel before she could use Nenya, in the first of two purposely internal variations.
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Old 02-14-2018, 07:17 AM   #50
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For clarity perhaps, I mean Olórin before he was Gandalf.

Looking at the text, it reads Olórin said this or that, while the name Mithrandir is only added parenthetically to note who Olórin is -- in my opinion because from JRRT's perspective, Olórin might be an easily forgotten name, especially before the constructed Silmarillion was published, and these fancy internet days.


In one of the Glorfindel texts, it's said.

"That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this."
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Old 02-15-2018, 02:31 PM   #51
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I agree with Findegil. As much as I like the story of Olorin, the logical problem is there. In addition, due to the vast difference in timing between the two versions (one in the Second and the other in the Third Ages), the narrative cannot be presented as we would like: side by side as two divergent legends. They would be separated by a great deal of text, and this would be difficult to edit without the appearance of contradiction. I have incorporated the second version into the Second Age draft at the very beginning of the chapter Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, with some minor editing.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:38 PM   #52
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I agree with Findegil. As much as I like the story of Olorin, the logical problem is there.
I don't understand, doesn't the Olórin version take away the problem Findegil noted?

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Findegil wrote: The story of him visiting Galadriel and giving the stone to here, does not fit the chronology: All the time when Gandalf is around Galadriel was able to use her Ring. So for what would she neede the Elessar?
The "Elessar returned" version states that: "And on a time Olórin came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great; and they had long speech together."

But when's one a time? If the Maia arrives in the Second Age here, we have roughly 1,590 years before the Three are made, and around year 1600, Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron, leaving the Three arguably unsafe to employ until Isildur takes the One in year 3,441.

Or do these windows not work due to some chronology already decided upon?
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Old 02-16-2018, 11:02 AM   #53
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In one of the texts of the Istari is said
"Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey.... Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained,..."
This is ( for me ) a good reason to think that the Olorin of the Elessar text could be an Olorin of the pre One Ring Second Age.
But for me there is a problem, And is that Galadriel never dwelt in Greenwood the Great unless we edit it in some way saying that Lorien or Lindorinand was part of it in those days.

Anyway I prefer the version of Enerdhil.

And anyway I gave the Elessar story as a separate text, as a General note at the end of the Third TftE Volume (Fourth volume of The Thain Book), and I conserved both stories maintaining the ambiguous
"and of this two things are said, though which is true only those Wise could say who now are gone."
The only part I inserted in the narrative was the first part:

There was in Gondolin a jewel-smith named Enerdhil, ... This gem Enerdhil gave to Idril the King's daughter, and she wore it upon her breast..."

And

"And before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil ..... So it was that the Elessar passed away, when Eärendil returned no more to Middle-earth"

into the Narn-en-El text.

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Old 02-16-2018, 02:42 PM   #54
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(...) But for me there is a problem, And is that Galadriel never dwelt in Greenwood the Great unless we edit it in some way saying that Lorien or Lindorinand was part of it in those days.
Indeed both versions of the Elessar tale at least appear to have Galadriel in Greenwood, and the first edition puts Celeborn there (although granted, this detail was omitted in the second edition).

According to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, Lorinand is said to have extended into the forest on both sides of the Great River, including the region which afterwards was Dol Guldur.

Still, in general I agree there might be some problems tying together a chronology of Galadriel's movements in the Second Age. Author-published text gives little enough to go on, and in my personal opinion, Concerning Galariel and Celeborn is a dubious text with respect to a few matters.

I'm not sure what the folks engaged in this project have already decided upon regarding Galadriel's movements, and I must admit, I haven't tried to squeeze Greenwood into the picture...

... or my picture anyway!
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Old 02-17-2018, 02:19 AM   #55
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According to the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, Lorinand is said to have extended into the forest on both sides of the Great River, including the region which afterwards was Dol Guldur.
Yes is true, what I mean is that it must be necesary to make clear that the wood was part of a whole. If you know what I mean.

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Old 02-17-2018, 11:58 AM   #56
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O, I C

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Old 02-17-2018, 03:19 PM   #57
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The project has not yet discussed Galadriels and Celeborns movements in the Second and Third Age (or even at the end of the First Age). But that is one of the important points we have to do soon as it seems.

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