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Old 01-14-2018, 10:03 PM   #161
ArcusCalion
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I realized I had forgotten to mention, but I have finished a draft of the entirety of Volume 3 as outlined in my structure above, so I am ready to post whenever. I have not done so because we are already in the midst of so many chapters, I did not want to derail the discussion more than I already have in the past. Doing these edits has given me some new thoughts on various chapters Fin and I have reached a consensus on. I will address those as Aiwendil and others begin to discuss the respective chapters.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:27 PM   #162
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While working on figuring out a framework for the narrative of the Third Age, I found myself relying heavily on Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, but the account therein is severely compressed. It leaves out the entire history of Arnor, the Kinstrife, the Dwarven history, the Rangers of Eriador, and much much more which are only to be found in the Appendices of LotR. Thus, to present the narrative of the Third Age as an uninterrupted story in the tradition of the First and Second Ages is impossible unless large portions of Appendix A are used. At first glance this seems antithetical to the project, but upon review of Appendix A I have found this in its preface:

Quote:
The legends, histories, and lore to be found in the sources are very extensive. Only selections from them, in most places much abridged, are here presented. Their principal purpose is to illustrate the War of the Ring and its origins, and to fill up some of the gaps in the main story.
The fact that the Appendices as published are simply selections of material from a larger source is not actually true, as Tolkien wrote them whole-cloth. However, I personally think that this reference provides the framework, even the mandate to include this appendix in full in order to flesh out the narrative of the Third Age. As this is a very radical idea from the point of view of the project, I wish to discuss it with everyone. As the published text is 'canon,' it may not be altered. I would like to hear people's thoughts on the ways in which that applies.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:19 AM   #163
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That is what I did. You can see by the titles of my project. For me is the only way to have a coherent line of history. The appendices mixed with the material from UT.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:51 AM   #164
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I have actually finished my first draft using the appendices, and there is really no question: if we wish to have a continuous narrative (or in fact any structure that will be coherent) we mist give the appendices. The information contained therein is given nowhere else.
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Old 02-16-2018, 10:55 AM   #165
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Going with the assumption that the Appendices are to be used (as I think they must) this is the outline I have prepared for Volume II including my draft of the Third Age material.

Quote:
VOLUME II: THE HISTORY OF THE NORTHWEST OF MIDDLE-EARTH
The Black Years
-The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves
-The Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men
-A Description of the Island of Númenor
-Indis i·Ciryamo
-Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn
-The Port of Lond Daer
-Glorfindel
-Of the Rings of Power
-Aman and Mortal Men
-Tal-Elmar
-Akallabêth
---The Lost Road
-The Last Alliance
The Fading Years
-The Disaster of the Gladden Fields
---The Tradition of Isildur
-Of the Third Age
---The Five Wizards
-Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion
---The Northmen and the Wainriders
-The North Kingdom and the Dúnedain
-The Legend of Amroth and Nimrodel
-The Ride of Eorl
---Cirion and Eorl
-The House of Eorl
-Dúrin's Folk
-The Stewards
---Concerning Gandalf, Saruman, and the Shire
-The War of the Ring
-Appendix A: The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen
-Appendix B: The Quest for Erebor
-Appendix C: The Battles of the Fords of Isen
---The Marshals of the Mark
-Appendix D: The Hunt for the Ring
The New Shadow

Last edited by ArcusCalion; 02-18-2018 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 02-17-2018, 03:12 PM   #166
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That looks impresiv. I have only two remark:
To lift the last chapters 'The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'; 'The Quest for Erebor'; 'The Battle of the Fords of Isen' and 'The Hunt for the Ring' to full talls beside 'Ainulindalë'; 'Valaquenta'; 'Quenta Silmarillion'; 'Athrabeht Finrod ah Andreth'; 'Narn Beren ion Barahir'; 'Narn e•mbar Hador'; 'The Black Years' and 'The Fading Years' seems a bit unproportional to me. It is okay for 'The New Shadow' because that is a stand alone any how. But the rest I would rather order them under 'The Fading Years'.
The second remark is just an idea and you as having worked with the texts might simply reject it as rediculous: Wouldn't it be good to shift 'The Marshals of the Mark' too an earlier place and incooperate it in 'The House of Eorl'

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Old 02-17-2018, 04:18 PM   #167
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I thought about doing this, but The Marshals of the Mark refers heavily to specific events in the course of the War of the Ring that are not covered by the cursory account. I have begun to consider adding in The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen to the main narrative, in which case, The Hunt for the Ring, Marshals of the Mark, and possibly the entire Battle of the Fords might be able to be inserted. I have not attempted this, however, and at the moment I am of the opinion that it would not work. As to the point of the disproportionate level at which these sundry tales are placed in my current outline, Volume 3 also has a similar problem. I do see the difference there, however, since it is not a continuous narrative. If The Hunt for the Ring, The Quest for Erebor, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, and The Battle of the Fords of Isen cannot be fitted into the narrative, maybe they could be listed as Appendix A, B, and C? THis way they would have the same level as the chapters, but would be denoted as secondary elements outside of the single narrative.

Edit: I have now looked into it, and I do not believe that The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen should be inserted into the main narrative. It would need to be broken up, and would thus lose a great deal of coherence. Besides that, the other tales do not readily fit into the summary account of the War of the Ring given in the work, and still would need to stand alone. The Marshals of the Mark could be inserted under its subheading immediately at the end of the existing draft for The War of the Ring but this would feel out of place and would distract from the narrative needlessly, since it fits well in subject matter to The Battle of the Fords of Isen, which discusses much of Rohan's military structure and strategy.

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Old 02-18-2018, 02:55 AM   #168
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This is only a constructive criticism, of course. In my humble opinion tales like The Lost Road, Tar Elmar, or The New Shadow (this one also possibly never would be in the "original" Tfte), are very individual and very very unfinished to be in any place of these projects.
As for the structure, without any pretentious for my part, do you consider in some time my structure?. For me, that already read it is, even cronologically, very accurate, and very "Tolkienist". Every chapter you quote is merged into the narrative.
Greetings

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Old 02-18-2018, 10:36 AM   #169
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gondowe, to your point about Tal-Elmar and The New Shadow, the way in which they are given in the work is not intrusive into the story, and their unfinished quality may be explained by a simple preface that the conclusion of these stories was lost. As lindil has said, and as Findegil believes, the goal of this project is maximum inclusion: if the Professor wrote it, we will try to include it. I see no real reason to dismiss these two works simply because they are unfinished. In some ways, I think their unfinished nature is actually part of the allure of Middle-earth, where there are always more stories hiding beneath the pages, lost or unfinished. I see no compelling reason to exclude these works.

I have indeed reviewed your structure many times, and while it is incredible and much to be lauded, the goals of your project and the goals of this one are not the same. You have sought to present each work individually, edited for agreement, while this project seeks to follow Christopher Tolkien's method of combining the texts into a singular narrative. In addition, simply going by the chapter headings and subheadings you have given, it seems you are much freer with invention and insertion of unsourced material into the work, which is something we cannot do in this project. Therefore, while your structure is admirable, it is not necessarily in tune with what we are pursuing. In terms of the Third Age specifically, I see how you have organized it, which is much the same way in which it was organized in Appendix A: each kingdom treated distinctly, and with no linearly progressing narrative for the history. I have followed the model of the project in mine: creating a single, linear narrative in order to have one unbroken historical tale, from the creation to the reign of Eldarion son of Aragon. I was unable to insert some of the stories (the ones I have named above) into the direct narrative, but perhaps Findegil or Aiwendil will have a solution.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:52 PM   #170
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"You have sought to present each work individually, edited for agreement, while this project seeks to follow Christopher Tolkien's method of combining the texts into a singular narrative. In addition, simply going by the chapter headings and subheadings you have given, it seems you are much freer with invention and insertion of unsourced material into the work, which is something we cannot do in this project."

Arcuscalion, apart for the subheadings I didn't invent anything, anything is unsourced; only prepositional, etc nexus between paragraphs, sentences, etc.
But many subheadings in UT and HoME series are (in my opinion) inventions of CT only to give order to the texts. For that reason the subheadings never were a problem for me while the text were pure Tolkien.

"In terms of the Third Age specifically, I see how you have organized it, which is much the same way in which it was organized in Appendix A: each kingdom treated distinctly, and with no linearly progressing narrative for the history."

I also think that I am following the CT method, but the structure I think is more JRRT method (always with humility of course) as you said about my following Appendix A of TLotR.

Anyway I always understood that this project is different from mine and in this way I always share my opinions about the composition of the texts, forgetting the structure because as I always said in this forum, at last the historic information is the same.
I only wanted to say that you could take ideas from my structure, only that.
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:54 AM   #171
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Ah my apologies, I was just going off of the headings. It is hard for me to divine your structure accurately, I think, since I do not have the text of your version, which I would not be able to read (since I am not fluent in Spanish). I do indeed consider your outline before making my own, but I think I'll stick with mine for now. Perhaps Fin could weigh in?
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:40 AM   #172
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Yes, I told in other thread that it was a great pity for me that it is not possible for you to read it. Because I think it really works.
As for me it would be a huge job for which I do not have time, many times I think about using the google translator to share it, but ... well, it would be the worst insult to the professor.
If I am on the road when this project reaches the Second and Third Ages Ill try to collaborate in the measure I could.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:05 AM   #173
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We'd love it! By the way, I meant to ask you if there were any sections of PE or VT that you know of to include that we haven't yet? I've added The Rivers and Beacon-Hills of Gondor to Volume III, and the rest we've already shown in the outlines and chapter drafts. I just ask because you've given us amazing excerpts (Lambion Ontale and the Buildings of the Eldar) and I was wondering what other hidden gems there might be.
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Old 02-24-2018, 03:26 PM   #174
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Sorry for my absence recently. Can someone remind me if we had decided on what chapter to review next? I should be able to take a look at Findegil's and ArcusCalion's drafts again soon.
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Old 02-24-2018, 07:27 PM   #175
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An amzing thing findegil n co.

Re round world

The trouble was 2 fold if I recall.

1 - Tolkien never finalized the chronology.
2- the vast bulk of the mythology is otherwise cohesive and it was part if it forever. I honestly no longer recall whether JRRT flipped back or not and my Tolkien library is not in Hawaii with me.

But of course. .if the group energy is going that way....

But having been a FE project for so long...17 years...(deep bow) it would be a bit of shame to not see it set sail properly.

Even if Rôg is on board. Lol.

I would urge a finalization with flat middle earth for pre atalantë and then when complete ...(a literary smooth reading version was envisioned).

My personal dilemma is that I think the optimum solution for a Translations from the Elvish style super Silm is along lines of annotated Hobbit.

Core 99 silm ...huge folio book...with older lost tales variants below...later variants above. And old era of annals on the sides and final era later.

If I get a windfall or grab a couple volumes of used HBs at a time I could cut n paste it to a folio.

Let all the major variants share a huge spread of a dual page.

I could see setting up a new team for that as a side forum ...and after some mock ups we send them to Annotted CJRT insider ...complete with tales of the BD exploits as the groundwork...and see if Anderson likes it enough to go pitch it to CJRT.

But as for all the layout here...its amazing.
An exploratory group ...looking into a somewhat integrated style or at least good transitions esp between hyper condensed or note fragments to full blown revised sort of lurches.

And whether to go for a stylistic revision/reader version at all...of course.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:23 AM   #176
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Aiwendil and lindil it is so nice to read from you here!

Aiwendil, I think chapter 3 was the place we stopped last adn it seems finished. Since that is done, I would say take your free choice. ArcusCalion and I should be willing to discuss any chapter with you, to whitch your lust for discussion leads us.

lindil, your tried already once to shift the project to your (new) idea of an annotated Sil77. I am still inclined first to finish this project before jumping into anything new. I can see the resaoning that shuch an annotated Sil77 would have probably a much greater chance to get a go for publication. But that does not mean that it will have a good chance! And anyhow when you started the old project, publication has not been a goal and for the project as it is, it can never be. And all active discusser do know that. So sorry but I am strongly against your new project binding forces that could be used for the old one.

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Old 02-26-2018, 02:33 PM   #177
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Aiwendil, we had proposed two alternative paths of discussion: doing all the shorter, easier chapters first, or doing the harder, more difficult chapters first. If we go with the former, then the next would be Thingol and Melian, but if we go with the latter, it would be the Coming of the Elves.

Lindil, I am not sure I understand your suggestions, but I do agree with Findegil that this current project should be finished before any alternate project is undertaken.
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Old 03-02-2018, 07:58 PM   #178
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Good to see you, Lindil!

All right, I think that after being away for a bit, it might be best for me to start back in with something easy, so I'll try to look at "Thingol and Melian" this weekend.
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