Another Dragon Vs. Balrog thing - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gorin Icearms · 03-05-2002, 08:29 PM

The other one's gettin' kinda long so I'm starting my own. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] We've all heard (read, whatever) the pluses and minuses of these two powerful creatures. So here's a new one for ya. If you had a battle between all the dragons and all the balrogs ever recorded, who would win?

This one would definately go to the dragons.

Kuruharan · 03-05-2002, 09:10 PM

OH-NO!! IT'S MULTIPLYING!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Thingol · 03-06-2002, 01:25 PM

Since we don't know how many Dragons there are it would be tough to judge. There is a note that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote that said that no more than 3 or 7 Balrogs had ever existed. I think that Obloquy has just about convinced me to accept the note as Tolkien's latest intentions and therefore the truth. Although I'm still thinking about it and am not sure. I had previously contented that because the note was not published and since the numbers 3 or 7 never appear anywhere else, that Tolkien was planning to drastically reduce the thousands of Balrogs that existed in his earlier writings, but not to 7, and certainly not to 3. The fact that Tolkien made such a drastic reduction further supports the theory that Balrogs are stronger than Dragons.

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

obloquy · 03-06-2002, 02:48 PM

By the way, Thingol, I posted a reply to your last post in the "Seven Thains..." thread. I'm letting you know here so that you don't miss it as I had missed your post! Things tend to get buried really quickly on this board.

Thingol · 03-06-2002, 07:36 PM

I saw it [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Kuruharan · 03-06-2002, 07:55 PM

I'll be patheticly obvious and cast my vote for Dragons. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

04-29-2002, 05:56 PM

My vote is that before either could destroy one another the earth would be destroyed in a burning explosion from the clashing of powers [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] nullnull [img]null[/img]

ESTEN · 04-30-2002, 02:47 PM

I would have to say that there are more dragons, but because the balrogs are made in fire could the dragons really hurt them. Gandalf told the fellowship that their weapons were no macth, that means that brute strength won't defeat a balrog, only magic will do. This is just my opiniun. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

04-30-2002, 05:30 PM

To true about the fire but what about the colosal meetin of energies one must be carful when choosing sides therfore i defend my opinion [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Rinurion · 05-01-2002, 04:21 AM

Hmmm, this thread is really loving the new theme [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Ok, from what i have seen on this thread and read myself, i would have to say that a one on one match, dragon against balrog, a dragon would come out on top.
1. Dragons are bigger. (i am looking foward to the debate on this one [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). A balrog is not all that much bigger than a troll... they cant be. they can get down the corridors built by the dwarves. dragons do not fit down these corridors... as an example i use smaug... he couldnt chase biblo up the corridor, and had to use the the top of the mountain exit. the balrog in moria made his way through a maze of corridors... which makes him a LOT smaller.

2. the only cases of dragons being killed stated by tolkien are when somone has suprised them or shot them with an arrow. i dont see balrogs carrying bows, nor sneaking up on someone. and as for the case of turin and glaurung... i somehow thing a dragon would take a blarog seriously. the balrog would have to engage the dragon in hand to hand combat... and a dragon, as a said, is much, much bigger. three words... BIG CRUSHING JAWS.

3. Balrogs may have done more than dragons, but there were MORE of them. a host of them in fact. although 3 to seven dragons seems far too small, i doubt there were ever more than 50 of them. oh, and as for the list of people who have killed a balrog... maybe they were simply smart enough not to mess with a dragon.

hmmm... that will do for now... go dragons!

Mankáno · 05-01-2002, 03:28 PM

My vote goes to the Balrogs

The Balrogs were maiar, spirits of fire, they came from outside Arda and were of the same kindred as Morgoth or the Valar. Only Sauron among Morgoth's servants was more powerful.

Remember that Gandalf did kill the Balrog but it costed him his own life, and remember that Gandalf was himself a maia, and that Balrog wasn't Gothmog, they lord and more powerful Balrog.

Smaug, the most powerful dragon in the third age was killed by a single arrow, shot by a man, I doubt you would kill a balrog that easily.

Dragons were creatures created by Morgoth, what was their exact nature? it's not explained. As the werewolves, they might be evil spirits that adopted those forms, so, they could have been ainur (maiar in Arda) but i believe that even if that was the case, they were spirits less powerful than the Balrogs.

Remember the Balrogs were able to even defeat Ungoliant, I think Ungoliant would have eaten the dragons as appetizers.

05-02-2002, 02:58 AM

[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
I think balrogs are so much more powerful than dragons. i mean, look who it took to kill them gandalf managed, but even Bard killed a dragon, and he is nothing like gandalf.

stone of vision · 05-02-2002, 04:11 PM

Hey guys! that's not the shooth 'em up game but at least the fighting game here! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
Just want to add my 2 cents Balrog vs Dragon:

fight one
A Balrog is a demon, an evil spirit. score 1
A Dragon is a "faboulous" animal. score 1
result :even

fight two
In theory, their power seem to be equal. So I doubt they would look for a battle against each other. Unless they do want to vanish from Middle Earth together before their time.
Balrog score 0
Dragon score 0
result: even

Final fight
If it is to happened (I mean the fight of course).
The winner : would be the most motivated (fighting for Evil or Good is a motivation) from both of them!

Game over [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Lol [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Sil stone of vision, dragon's lover, balrog worshiper,Soul calibur very bad player( very difficult for a spherical stone to use the joystick héhéhé! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Rinurion · 05-02-2002, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Remember that Gandalf did kill the Balrog but it costed him his own life

Ok, call me ignorant, but where does it say gandalf died in his fight with the balrog?

[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: Rinurion ]

06-25-2003, 09:06 AM

im sure it says gandalf dies, as he chases the balrog up to the peak of zirakzigil he then casts him down from the peak and passes away then its decided that it is not his time to leave middle earth, and so he is returned as gandalf the white and is then carried by Gwaihier to Lothlorien

peonydeepdelver · 06-25-2003, 12:27 PM

I think a Balrog would definitely beat a dragon. He has the capability to breathe fire AND whip the dragon with his, er, whip. He could also (if the dragon was smaller than him) sit on a dragon's head [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Amarie of the Vanyar · 06-25-2003, 01:20 PM

Quote:

where does it say gandalf died in his fight with the balrog?

Tolkien said it in Letter 156 [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] You can read about it in these threads:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=000955
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=002114

07-18-2003, 08:42 PM

If you refer back to the hobbit ,gandalf felt that it would be wiser to bring at least 15 dwarvs and a hobbit to get recover the jewels from smaug,a dragon but yet he tried to take on the balrog alone.Why would he be prepared to face a battle with a dragon alone? Maybe because it was too strong so he was aided by dwarves but yet the balrog,he just needed his staff.Maybe he knew he could overcome the balrog alone because it wasnt as strong, so he challenged it to battle.just a thought. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Aragost · 07-18-2003, 09:16 PM

I believe I once read somewhere that Sauron had balrogs under his control but not dragonsa because of his fear of them.

My vote goes to the Dragons.

Osse · 07-21-2003, 06:08 AM

Chalk and cheese, balrogs are spirits, much like Gandalf, though he was of greater strength and power. The balrogs were fire spirits that sauron bent to his will, whereas he bred the dragons himself. Gandalf could have marched into Smaugs lair and killed him but he had other motives, he wanted to avoid sauron using smaug in his upcoming wars but couldn't let on to Saruman that he knew sauron was back. He disposed of the dragon without looking like he did it. Dragons are beasts, balrogs are spirits. You cannot compare the two.

Lord of Angmar · 07-21-2003, 08:12 AM

Quote:

balrogs were fire spirits that sauron bent to his will, whereas he bred the dragons himself.

Balrogs were Maiar that Morgoth corrupted, not Sauron. As for dragons, Morgoth could not create life, only mockeries of it (i.e. orcs). Therefore it must be assumed that dragons had some other origin, but whether they can be classified as "beasts", of the kingdom of thekelvar, has been debated.

Sleepy Ranger · 08-26-2003, 11:49 AM

Balrogs I say Balrogs for I read somewhere that they are of equal power but a Balrog is cool. I'll give you a quote when I find it.

samrohan · 08-27-2003, 01:07 AM

I have mixed feelings, I know that Dragons were immensly strong and cunning but the Balrogs were powerful and take my vote.

burrahobbit · 08-27-2003, 01:09 AM

I don't think you are going to give us the quote when you find it. Because it doesn't exist. If it did I'm sure somebody would have seen fit to post it in the past year and a half. Please don't post to old topics that are not good.

Firnantoonion · 08-27-2003, 04:51 AM

my vote goes to Balrogs, simply because they are maiar spirits, in their own spiritual form, even if dragons are maiar spirits too they are less powerful because they are bound to a physical (less spiritual)form, and therefore had to use power to contain this form, wich a Balrog didn't have to.

furthermore, a dragon (take Smaug or Scatha) can be slain by mere men, no single man can handle a Balrog (save maybe hurin)
all the Balrogs (what we know of) are slain by either maiar or by powerful elflords, who all died in the process.

Estelyn Telcontar · 08-27-2003, 01:17 PM

This resurfaced topic is an opinion subject and therefore belongs on the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue there.

03-05-2002, 08:29 PM	#1
Gorin Icearms Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 67	Another Dragon Vs. Balrog thing The other one's gettin' kinda long so I'm starting my own. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] We've all heard (read, whatever) the pluses and minuses of these two powerful creatures. So here's a new one for ya. If you had a battle between all the dragons and all the balrogs ever recorded, who would win? This one would definately go to the dragons. __________________ The Moon is Rising! Oh hey, I'm a wight now. WORSHIP ME IN ALL MY WIGHTNESS!!! MUAHAHAHA!!

03-05-2002, 09:10 PM	#2
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,639	OH-NO!! IT'S MULTIPLYING!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

03-06-2002, 01:25 PM	#3
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	Since we don't know how many Dragons there are it would be tough to judge. There is a note that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote that said that no more than 3 or 7 Balrogs had ever existed. I think that Obloquy has just about convinced me to accept the note as Tolkien's latest intentions and therefore the truth. Although I'm still thinking about it and am not sure. I had previously contented that because the note was not published and since the numbers 3 or 7 never appear anywhere else, that Tolkien was planning to drastically reduce the thousands of Balrogs that existed in his earlier writings, but not to 7, and certainly not to 3. The fact that Tolkien made such a drastic reduction further supports the theory that Balrogs are stronger than Dragons. [ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

03-06-2002, 07:36 PM	#5
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	I saw it [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

03-06-2002, 07:55 PM	#6
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,639	I'll be patheticly obvious and cast my vote for Dragons. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

03-06-2002, 02:48 PM	#4
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	By the way, Thingol, I posted a reply to your last post in the "Seven Thains..." thread. I'm letting you know here so that you don't miss it as I had missed your post! Things tend to get buried really quickly on this board.

04-29-2002, 05:56 PM	#7
serin Guest Posts: n/a	My vote is that before either could destroy one another the earth would be destroyed in a burning explosion from the clashing of powers [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] nullnull [img]null[/img]

04-30-2002, 02:47 PM	#8
ESTEN Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Down the Rabbit hole Posts: 36	I would have to say that there are more dragons, but because the balrogs are made in fire could the dragons really hurt them. Gandalf told the fellowship that their weapons were no macth, that means that brute strength won't defeat a balrog, only magic will do. This is just my opiniun. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

04-30-2002, 05:30 PM	#9
Serin Guest Posts: n/a	To true about the fire but what about the colosal meetin of energies one must be carful when choosing sides therfore i defend my opinion [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

05-01-2002, 04:21 AM	#10
Rinurion Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NZ, the home of middle earth Posts: 36	Hmmm, this thread is really loving the new theme [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Ok, from what i have seen on this thread and read myself, i would have to say that a one on one match, dragon against balrog, a dragon would come out on top. 1. Dragons are bigger. (i am looking foward to the debate on this one [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). A balrog is not all that much bigger than a troll... they cant be. they can get down the corridors built by the dwarves. dragons do not fit down these corridors... as an example i use smaug... he couldnt chase biblo up the corridor, and had to use the the top of the mountain exit. the balrog in moria made his way through a maze of corridors... which makes him a LOT smaller. 2. the only cases of dragons being killed stated by tolkien are when somone has suprised them or shot them with an arrow. i dont see balrogs carrying bows, nor sneaking up on someone. and as for the case of turin and glaurung... i somehow thing a dragon would take a blarog seriously. the balrog would have to engage the dragon in hand to hand combat... and a dragon, as a said, is much, much bigger. three words... BIG CRUSHING JAWS. 3. Balrogs may have done more than dragons, but there were MORE of them. a host of them in fact. although 3 to seven dragons seems far too small, i doubt there were ever more than 50 of them. oh, and as for the list of people who have killed a balrog... maybe they were simply smart enough not to mess with a dragon. hmmm... that will do for now... go dragons! __________________ But long ago he rode away, and where he dwelleth none can say, for into darkness fell his star, in Mordor where the shadows are.

05-01-2002, 03:28 PM	#11
Mankáno Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Tirion Posts: 30	My vote goes to the Balrogs The Balrogs were maiar, spirits of fire, they came from outside Arda and were of the same kindred as Morgoth or the Valar. Only Sauron among Morgoth's servants was more powerful. Remember that Gandalf did kill the Balrog but it costed him his own life, and remember that Gandalf was himself a maia, and that Balrog wasn't Gothmog, they lord and more powerful Balrog. Smaug, the most powerful dragon in the third age was killed by a single arrow, shot by a man, I doubt you would kill a balrog that easily. Dragons were creatures created by Morgoth, what was their exact nature? it's not explained. As the werewolves, they might be evil spirits that adopted those forms, so, they could have been ainur (maiar in Arda) but i believe that even if that was the case, they were spirits less powerful than the Balrogs. Remember the Balrogs were able to even defeat Ungoliant, I think Ungoliant would have eaten the dragons as appetizers.

05-02-2002, 02:58 AM	#12
lewis Guest Posts: n/a	[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] I think balrogs are so much more powerful than dragons. i mean, look who it took to kill them gandalf managed, but even Bard killed a dragon, and he is nothing like gandalf.

05-02-2002, 04:11 PM	#13
stone of vision Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: France Posts: 69	Hey guys! that's not the shooth 'em up game but at least the fighting game here! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] Just want to add my 2 cents Balrog vs Dragon: fight one A Balrog is a demon, an evil spirit. score 1 A Dragon is a "faboulous" animal. score 1 result :even fight two In theory, their power seem to be equal. So I doubt they would look for a battle against each other. Unless they do want to vanish from Middle Earth together before their time. Balrog score 0 Dragon score 0 result: even Final fight If it is to happened (I mean the fight of course). The winner : would be the most motivated (fighting for Evil or Good is a motivation) from both of them! Game over [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Lol [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Sil stone of vision, dragon's lover, balrog worshiper,Soul calibur very bad player( very difficult for a spherical stone to use the joystick héhéhé! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ silmarillien All that is gold doesn't glitter. ********************************* Nee, ai**ara Dare mo ga konna kodoku ni naru no?

06-25-2003, 09:06 AM	#15
Este Guest Posts: n/a	im sure it says gandalf dies, as he chases the balrog up to the peak of zirakzigil he then casts him down from the peak and passes away then its decided that it is not his time to leave middle earth, and so he is returned as gandalf the white and is then carried by Gwaihier to Lothlorien

06-25-2003, 12:27 PM	#16
peonydeepdelver Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alas, I hail from Massachusetts Posts: 256	I think a Balrog would definitely beat a dragon. He has the capability to breathe fire AND whip the dragon with his, er, whip. He could also (if the dragon was smaller than him) sit on a dragon's head [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "Nazgul, Nazgul! You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Ugluk! Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape! You ought to know that they're the apple of the Great Eye." ~Grishnakh

07-18-2003, 08:42 PM	#18
Pablo Guest Posts: n/a	If you refer back to the hobbit ,gandalf felt that it would be wiser to bring at least 15 dwarvs and a hobbit to get recover the jewels from smaug,a dragon but yet he tried to take on the balrog alone.Why would he be prepared to face a battle with a dragon alone? Maybe because it was too strong so he was aided by dwarves but yet the balrog,he just needed his staff.Maybe he knew he could overcome the balrog alone because it wasnt as strong, so he challenged it to battle.just a thought. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

07-18-2003, 09:16 PM	#19
Aragost Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Arthedain Posts: 137	I believe I once read somewhere that Sauron had balrogs under his control but not dragonsa because of his fear of them. My vote goes to the Dragons. __________________ Where there's a whip there's a will

07-21-2003, 06:08 AM	#20
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	Chalk and cheese, balrogs are spirits, much like Gandalf, though he was of greater strength and power. The balrogs were fire spirits that sauron bent to his will, whereas he bred the dragons himself. Gandalf could have marched into Smaugs lair and killed him but he had other motives, he wanted to avoid sauron using smaug in his upcoming wars but couldn't let on to Saruman that he knew sauron was back. He disposed of the dragon without looking like he did it. Dragons are beasts, balrogs are spirits. You cannot compare the two. __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

08-26-2003, 11:49 AM	#22
Sleepy Ranger Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: On the field, kissing the 'Downs crest Posts: 1,688	Balrogs I say Balrogs for I read somewhere that they are of equal power but a Balrog is cool. I'll give you a quote when I find it. __________________ And tonight we can truly say, together we're invincible... Middle-Earth Football World Cup 2007

08-27-2003, 01:07 AM	#23
samrohan Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Touring Minas Tirith with Gimli and Legolas Posts: 107	I have mixed feelings, I know that Dragons were immensly strong and cunning but the Balrogs were powerful and take my vote. __________________ I can't believe I have not watched the return of the king yet.

08-27-2003, 01:09 AM	#24
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,430	I don't think you are going to give us the quote when you find it. Because it doesn't exist. If it did I'm sure somebody would have seen fit to post it in the past year and a half. Please don't post to old topics that are not good. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

08-27-2003, 04:51 AM	#25
Firnantoonion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: a nice, cosy hole in a small hill Posts: 70	my vote goes to Balrogs, simply because they are maiar spirits, in their own spiritual form, even if dragons are maiar spirits too they are less powerful because they are bound to a physical (less spiritual)form, and therefore had to use power to contain this form, wich a Balrog didn't have to. furthermore, a dragon (take Smaug or Scatha) can be slain by mere men, no single man can handle a Balrog (save maybe hurin) all the Balrogs (what we know of) are slain by either maiar or by powerful elflords, who all died in the process. __________________ well, that's that then

08-27-2003, 01:17 PM	#26
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,535	This resurfaced topic is an opinion subject and therefore belongs on the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue there. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'