Inbreeding... and a little incest - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lindale · 06-22-2006, 09:59 PM

I have noticed that some of the Elves are inbreds... look at Celebrian, whose mother Galadriel is a descendant of Olwe, and whose husband Celeborn is akin to Elwe, Olwe's brother. Another example, Aragorn and Arwen. They are both descended from Earendil, their (fore)fathers being Elros and Elrond.

Now in biology I read that inbreeding in some species actually retains the nice traits of whatever you're breeding (example, you want only pink bougainvillea, don't let it cross-pollinate with other colors). But inbreeding also makes the risk of genetic diseases greater--this is very evident in breeding animals.

So why don't the Elves get a little wacko with all their inbreeding? And Eldarion too?

Formendacil · 06-23-2006, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lindale

So why don't the Elves get a little wacko with all their inbreeding? And Eldarion too?

To focus merely upon Eldarion for the moment... I wouldn't worry about him. Aragorn was so many generations (around 60) removed from Elros that his percentage of shared ancestry with Arwen, taken as a percentage of his overall ancestry, can't have been at all worrisome...

And, while a certain amount of inbreeding certainly exists (especially among the descendents of Elwë, Olwë, and Elmo, who were brethren), I don't think there's any examples of marriages between first cousins or of those of equal or closer degree... which is the human norm for acceptable.

Selmo · 06-23-2006, 02:47 AM

I cannot speak for Elves (I'm a hobbit and, therefore, human) but among humans breeding btween brother and sister carries with it the strong possibility of genetic problems, which is why it is discouraged in most societies.
Marriage between first cousins carries a much smaller risk. Most such couples would not have problems unless such marriages had occured within the same family for several generations.

If we assume that Elves were created with a perfect set of genes in the begining, then for Elves born in the First Age or earlier there should be no problems at all. It would take more than a few generations for genetic drift or mutation to have an effect.

Formendacil calls Elwë, Olwë, and Elmo, brothers. Were they true brothers, in the sense that they were born of the same parents? Or were they amongst the first Elves, created not born? In that case, they may not share the same genes but be called brothers through alliance and affection.
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Formendacil · 06-23-2006, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selmo

Formendacil calls Elwë, Olwë, and Elmo, brothers. Were they true brothers, in the sense that they were born of the same parents? Or were they amongst the first Elves, created not born? In that case, they may not share the same genes but be called brothers through alliance and affection.
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They are true brothers. Tolkien never once directly states that they were among the first Elves born, while he definitely states that they were brothers (Elmo is specifically said to the younger brother, among other things, a fact that is not likely if they awoke). Furthermore, the shared silver hair of Elwë, Olwë's daughter Eärwen, Elmo's grandson Celeborn (and possibly some others unknown), which is only found among these Elves- and their said-to-be kinsman, Círdan.

Raynor · 06-24-2006, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Tolkien never once directly states that they were among the first Elves born, while he definitely states that they were brothers

Moreover, Thingol did not have a wife from the start. According to the Cuivienyarna, the legend of the awakening of the elves, Quendi and Eldar, HoME XI, each first elf had beside his/her "destined spouse".

Elonve · 06-28-2006, 11:04 PM

In some cultures inbreeding and incest isn't thought of as bad.

Look at Cleopatra and her brother Ptolemy. They married.

Look at the British Royal family. They seem to be normal.

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Website design

06-22-2006, 09:59 PM	#1
Lindale Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: midway upon... in a forest dark Posts: 975	Inbreeding... and a little incest I have noticed that some of the Elves are inbreds... look at Celebrian, whose mother Galadriel is a descendant of Olwe, and whose husband Celeborn is akin to Elwe, Olwe's brother. Another example, Aragorn and Arwen. They are both descended from Earendil, their (fore)fathers being Elros and Elrond. Now in biology I read that inbreeding in some species actually retains the nice traits of whatever you're breeding (example, you want only pink bougainvillea, don't let it cross-pollinate with other colors). But inbreeding also makes the risk of genetic diseases greater--this is very evident in breeding animals. So why don't the Elves get a little wacko with all their inbreeding? And Eldarion too? __________________ The heart does things for reasons Reason itself cannot comprehend. - Blaise Pascal Legal Madness.

06-28-2006, 11:04 PM	#6
Elonve Wight Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Where the stars go blue. Posts: 153	In some cultures inbreeding and incest isn't thought of as bad. Look at Cleopatra and her brother Ptolemy. They married. Look at the British Royal family. They seem to be normal. ________ Website design Last edited by Elonve; 04-09-2011 at 06:19 PM.

06-23-2006, 02:47 AM	#3
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	I cannot speak for Elves (I'm a hobbit and, therefore, human) but among humans breeding btween brother and sister carries with it the strong possibility of genetic problems, which is why it is discouraged in most societies. Marriage between first cousins carries a much smaller risk. Most such couples would not have problems unless such marriages had occured within the same family for several generations. If we assume that Elves were created with a perfect set of genes in the begining, then for Elves born in the First Age or earlier there should be no problems at all. It would take more than a few generations for genetic drift or mutation to have an effect. Formendacil calls Elwë, Olwë, and Elmo, brothers. Were they true brothers, in the sense that they were born of the same parents? Or were they amongst the first Elves, created not born? In that case, they may not share the same genes but be called brothers through alliance and affection. .