Sauron Wins...Then What?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

However, that only applies if Sauron can maintain loyalty, discipline and unit cohesion, and I don't think that's very likely. His orcs will scatter and be hunted down and his human forces will probably mass surrender.

I still think if Sauron was wielding the One Ring he'd be able to keep his Orcs and Men in the fight. We know from Morgoth's Ring for instance regarding Sauron's Orcs that "the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command." I think what this means is that they fought like this not out of loyalty or devotion but rather almost under mind-control, and I imagine the Ring would enable Sauron to extend such an effect even further among his servants. So I still think it's possible that an invasion from Aman could result in a forced massacre. This is all just speculation on my part though.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In the First Age War of Wrath, Orcs were nearly exterminated seemingly, and that is not shown in anything but a positive light.

It's interesting that it's also stated in Morgoth's Ring that the law in the Elder Days at least was that Orcs were to be properly treated if they surrendered and sued for mercy, but that they never did (or at least "Few Orcs ever did so [...] and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf").

It states: "though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orc surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at cost."
Hmm.
Of course "in the horror of the War it was not always heeded."

[Ivriniel]

Suaronica - The New Middle Earth



1. Institutions:

Various burn-y things. Ways of making extinct volcanoes alive.
From Fire Crackers (Gandalf's) to burn-y things

Institution of Lots of Smoke
Institution of Lots of Creepy Screams (how to improve on the Nazgul scream).
Institution of Sauronic Prayer (a creepy scream).
Institution of Copulation with Orcs

2. Enslavement

The various chemical, spectral, speci-al, necromantic, physical, and psychological means of maintaining a big over-expanded ego that swells and swells etc -

3. "One Ring" beyond a One Ring to Rule them all and all and all (echo)

Presumably, he was going to need to do something about Valinor, and swell with that lust and greed thing he does (see Tolkien's use of that exact language), so that Valinor as well was a big dust bowl.

But really, not that I have anything against dustbowls. E.g. Nevada Desert.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

But that weren't valinorean Elves!

Perhaps. Galadriel was the mightiest Elf after Fëanor and she was still there as were others who defected from the Undying Lands. I do not think the Elves of the 2nd Age were pushovers in the least bit. In a 2 on 1 duel between the 2 Kings of Elves and Men versus Sauron it ended in a draw, sort of since Sauron's Ring was not destroyed.

"In the beginning of this Age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves." [RotK, Appendix B]

Also the Elves in Middle-earth were skilled craftsmen. Celebrimbor was Fëanor's grandson and was a great craftsman. The Gwaith-i-Mírdain made the Rings of Power and the Three. They also had the instruction of Sauron who was a Maia of Aulë. In Of the Rings of Power it is said of these Noldor that only the workings of Fëanor surpassed their deeds.

"In Eregion the craftsmen of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the People of the Jewel-smiths, surpassed in cunning all that have ever wrought, save only Fëanor himself; and indeed greatest in skill among them was Celebrimbor, son of Curufin, who was estranged from his father and remained in Nargothrond"

It is said in Peoples of Middle-earth that he also came to Middle-earth from Aman. There are indeed Elves still in Middle-earth in the 2nd Age who were from Aman.

If you want to say Elves from Aman in league with Maiar could topple Sauron even if he wore the one I would not disagree. My point is that the Elves alone in the 2nd Age could not match him. I do not think they were lesser Elves than any that would come from Aman. Remember Galadriel was among them and she was not the lone surviving Elf from Aman still in M-E in the 2nd Age.

[Ivriniel]

Had Gandalf failed in his mission,

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Perhaps. Galadriel was the mightiest Elf after Fëanor and she was still there as were others who defected from the Undying Lands. I do not think the Elves of the 2nd Age were pushovers in the least bit. In a 2 on 1 duel between the 2 Kings of Elves and Men versus Sauron it ended in a draw, sort of since Sauron's Ring was not destroyed.

"In the beginning of this Age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dûr many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves." [RotK, Appendix B]

Also the Elves in Middle-earth were skilled craftsmen. Celebrimbor was Fëanor's grandson and was a great craftsman. The Gwaith-i-Mírdain made the Rings of Power and the Three. They also had the instruction of Sauron who was a Maia of Aulë. In Of the Rings of Power it is said of these Noldor that only the workings of Fëanor surpassed their deeds.

"In Eregion the craftsmen of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the People of the Jewel-smiths, surpassed in cunning all that have ever wrought, save only Fëanor himself; and indeed greatest in skill among them was Celebrimbor, son of Curufin, who was estranged from his father and remained in Nargothrond"

It is said in Peoples of Middle-earth that he also came to Middle-earth from Aman. There are indeed Elves still in Middle-earth in the 2nd Age who were from Aman.

If you want to say Elves from Aman in league with Maiar could topple Sauron even if he wore the one I would not disagree. My point is that the Elves alone in the 2nd Age could not match him. I do not think they were lesser Elves than any that would come from Aman. Remember Galadriel was among them and she was not the lone surviving Elf from Aman still in M-E in the 2nd Age.

The fading of the Eldar and passage of Silvan and Eldar on the Straight Road in the Third Age was not likely to have been the tipping point in the balance of power to have caused Gandalf to fail in his mission (back reference to opening post). Though there were some Elves from Aman in Middle Earth at the time of the War of the Ring, it seems that Gandalf's mission was often with the herding or helping of Edain and Numereans in Exile. Although, the folk of Lothlorien, Lindon, Imladris and Morthond do appear in critical moments in the history.

I imagine that Gandalf might have been more likely to fail if, for example, he went to confront the Chief of the Nazgul--the Witch King--on the Battle of the Pelenor (where he turned at the critical moment to another mission, leaving the confrontation to Merry and Eowyn). It is not clear how Gandalf would have gone in that duel.

[Faramir Jones]

There is an interesting short story by Harry Turtledove, first published in 1988, called 'After the Last Elf is Dead', the world portrayed bearing a very obvious resemblance to that in LotR. The scenario is where Evil has triumphed over Good, with an interesting result.

Some of that story can be seen online, in a collection of Turtledove's stories in Google Books, Counting Up, Counting Down:

https://books.google.ie/books?id=nnm...20dead&f=false

It's worth a read.

[Belegorn]

If Frodo died, or lost the Ring to Sauron I do not think Gandalf would have given up. Obviously things would certainly be different and very nearly was. The Nazgûl would be infinitely stronger, "they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master's hand again" [FotR, A Journey in the Dark] and Sauron would as Gandalf told Frodo have "strength and knowledge to beat down all resistance, break the last defenses, and cover all the lands in a second darkness." [The Shadow of the Past] It would be very tough, however, especially with the Elvish strongholds held by the bearers of the Three since "all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever." The One was really malicious when you think about it in terms of it's connection with the other Rings in seeing their workings and the minds of their bearers.

[Belegorn]

There is also this statement by Gandalf to Denethor which I think shows that Gandalf would not have thrown in the towel had Sauron got the Ring back.

Originally Posted by Return of the King; Minas Tirith

all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?

[Ivriniel]

I had another 'vision' of 'Sauronic heaven' to extend the 'dust bowl' theory.

Being so narcissistically inclined, much like all the evil antagonists often are in literature, I'm sure he'd have grown very bored of the "Mordor Singularity" in the ever-expanding dust bowl of 'orc only', "Ungolient-esque" swelling with Greed and Lust, unto even Nigh Valinor.

Thence, didst Sauron invert all The Powers, and even Taniquetil spewed forth a lurid, sickly light, and the Sun and the Moon grew nauseating to behold. Thence, he inverted the dead Trees on Ezellohar, conjuring wraith forms into them, for Necromancy was ever a pursuit of Sauron's lust. And so, through the Trees he extended his will into Valinor, and great spectral haunts, to mock Eru were vomited forth of his Lore. Until nigh even thence to the Gates of Night, didst Sauron thence Usurp even Melkor, and summoning forth Melkor from the Void, Sauron subverted his former master and adorned himself with the greatest prise: Master of Arda. Land of Spectres, Wraiths, Undead, and a peril to any life. The Elves, utterly subverted, either chattel, and toys for Sauron's perverse pleasures. Or, violated and subverted, as servants of Darkness, all.

Okay, then what bad boi? Go ahead Sauron you idiot let's see what Eru does with that one....