Unfinished Tales - Part One - II - Narn I Hín Húrin

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Actually, Aiwendil, I think the saga character that is most clearly a model for Túrin has to be Sigurd the Volsung

Sigurd is a clear influence, but I believe Tolkien expressed reservations about the literary quality of the Volsunga saga, which is why if one is to look for a saga influence I'd be more inclined to look first at the sagas of Icelanders.

sig=victory and Urd=one of the Norns, goddesses of fate

I think (I could very well be wrong) that it means rather "victory-guardian", cognate with Old English "Sigeweard".

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But he is still alone at heart.

I agree with this to an extent, but I think it's well to bear in mind that Turin did form friendships and meaningful relationships with his companions. He had a very deep friendship with Beleg; he seemed to have a real connection with Mim; he was a genuine friend of Gwindor; he had a somewhat complicated but strong relationship with Finduilas; he obviously loved Niniel and seemed to actually feel comfortable and at home with the people of Brethil, even if he didn't care for Brandir. Yes, his unique history set him apart from those he was with, but I don't know that he was any more alone than anyone in his situation would have been. In other words, I don't see him as a loner by nature, but rather as constantly set apart from those around him by reason of his past and of Morgoth's curse.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Today we move on to the last section of this chapter, including: The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond, Nienor in Brethil, The Coming of Glaurung, The Death of Glaurung, and The Death of Túrin. The Notes and Appendix can also be discussed at this point.

The tragedy now comes to its conclusion. What part do Morwen's decisions have in Túrin's fate? Nienor has a passive role for the most part, but she does contribute to the fatefulness by disobeying her mother and following her. Is that a sign of courageous behaviour? At that moment she shows great inner strength! With Glaurung's enchantment, her loss of memory and the name change she seemingly experiences a change of character and becomes less active. However, she does follow Túrin and shares in the tragic end of the story.

Dragons are loved by many readers - what do you think of Glaurung? Is he particularly malicious, or just acting as a dragon must?

A number of Tolkien's other stories bore evidence of his Catholic beliefs. Is there any to be found here? It seems to me that the double suicide at the end is much closer to mythology than to Christianity.

Touching upon the discussion elsewhere about the use of "thee" etc. in Tolkien's works, there are several incidences here: Túrin speaking to Glaurung, Glaurung speaking to Nienor, and Túrin's last dialogue with his sword Gurthang.

I look forward to reading what you think about this chapter ending!

[Guinevere]

I really feel more like reading Tolkien's Father Christmas Letters right now!!

[Galadriel55]

Here's something that I value in this story that no other stans-alone story* in the legendarium has: the power of tragedy. Not the gentle sadness, and more than just foreboding on the reader's part. It's not even a slap in the face, it's a bucket of cold water.

Not that I dislike the other stories, or think that they are shallow, but their power lies in a different direction.

*I would say that The Sil in it's full is worth of this description as well

Dragons are loved by many readers - what do you think of Glaurung? Is he particularly malicious, or just acting as a dragon must?

He is described somewhere as Angband's most dangerous weapon (something of this sort), and well earns this title. But he is more than just a weapon. He's like an incarnated piece of Morgoth's evilness and malice.

I am not really sure how to answer the question, though. Is he doing something he decided to do, or is he doing what he was created for? He doesn't have a choice, and he doesn't want a choice. But it would be really interesting to take a peak at what goes on in his mind underneath the cunning.


I was really disappointed that CJRT didn't include the scene when Morwen dies. I understand that, since it's not really about the Children, but I like to have the family story completed. It's my favourite scene from the whole COH.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I really feel more like reading Tolkien's Father Christmas Letters right now!!

I picked up this suggestion and am starting a discussion of the FCL very soon! I hope you join me!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Here's something that I value in this story that no other stans-alone story* in the legendarium has: the power of tragedy. Not the gentle sadness, and more than just foreboding on the reader's part. It's not even a slap in the face, it's a bucket of cold water.

I feel like you're contradicting yourself here slightly: you say that no other stand-alone story has the power of tragedy, a flat-out statement. Then you make it a matter of degree: "more than just foreboding. It's not even a slap in the face, it's a bucket of cold water."

Of course, it's possible that I'm reading it this way because I think you're wrong about the flat-out statement. I don't think the Narn is the only stand-alone tragedy but I do agree that it has it in spades, that it's the most tragic. But the only tragedy? Aldarion and Erendis is flashing in my mind like the Las Vegas strip, and I think it's hard to argue either that it isn't tragic or that it isn't stand-alone.

For that matter, it's a fuzzy question where you draw the line between "part of the Silmarillion" and "stand-alone stories." Is "The Fall of Gondolin" a stand-alone story? I would argue that if the Narn is, the Fall must be--the main difference being that the Narn was a lot closer to being finished, while the Fall only exists completely in its Book of Lost Tales version--because of its early ending, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" reads more like a happy ending ("Woo! Tuor makes it!") than the tragedy of Turgon, Maeglin, and the Fall of Gondolin that it is supposed to lead into.

[Galadriel55]

To answer some of your questions, I don't think Of Aldarion and Erendis andOf Tuor come anywhere close to the grandeur of tragedy in the Narn. They have their own grandeur, but it is not as tragic. "Tuor" is not written in the "right" language for tragedy. And "Of A&E" ends in a quiet deadness (I know it wasn't a word... now it is It's the only way I can describe how I feel about it), not in a loud band. Just softer and softer, and quiet. The Narn ends off with a bang.

Both have good endings, IMO.But. Back to my earlier point.

This also might affect my personal bias: I have read COH numerous times before, so I'm familiar with the complete edited version of the story, and the gap/variations/inconsistency don't ruin it for me in the Narn. But I've read A&E for the first time, and it's just too unfinished a tale to have it's power unraveled fully.

I feel like you're contradicting yourself here slightly: you say that no other stand-alone story has the power of tragedy, a flat-out statement. Then you make it a matter of degree: "more than just foreboding. It's not even a slap in the face, it's a bucket of cold water."

Possibly. And I think that this is because I separate "sad" and "tragic" too much. There are many sad stories (any completely happy ones? ), but only this one stands out to me as a tragedy of such magnitude (and forget about the 3 Elven Kingdoms, I'm talking about a different kind of magnitude).

[Galadriel55]

In The Words of Hurin and Morgoth Morgoth says about his family "They dwell now in my realm, and are at my mercy," to which Hurin replies "You have none". How does this reflect (or not) what actually happened?

I think we would all agree that Turin's fate (let's just call it that for now and not get into that beaten debate) was anything but merciful. But considering his suicide - is that the least merciful way to end his life and suffering? Could it not have been worse?

I guess Turin was at such a point then that Morgoth could do nothing else to make him suffer further.

Also, Turin overcame himself in the end - and overcame all which his fate hung by. Even though he was mad when he committed suicide, there is still an element of sanity to it (unlike Nienor, who jumped of pure horror, grief, and feeling of helplessness/despair about the powers that toy with her family). He understood that his death is better than his life - not only for himself, but for everyone else too. Is that not what he was greatly urged to do all his life - understand his inability, forget his pride? And when he finally did it he found peace, though by far not the kind of peace anyone hoped for. This is also the point at which he stops running away from the past, and his past. The point when he sees no future.

Food for thought: is his greatest victory over the dragon, or over himself?


(Typing this made me think of Terminator... But it makes sense. To destroy further effects of Morgoth's curse or his own pride or whatever, Turin had to destroy himself...)

But for a more appropriate analogy, think Boromir.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Both have good endings, IMO.But. Back to my earlier point.

...

Possibly. And I think that this is because I separate "sad" and "tragic" too much. There are many sad stories (any completely happy ones? ), but only this one stands out to me as a tragedy of such magnitude (and forget about the 3 Elven Kingdoms, I'm talking about a different kind of magnitude).

As I said, I agree that the Narn is the *most* tragic of Tolkien's tales, other than the overall Silm--and I imagine even you'd be hard-pressed to say that the tragedy of the House of Fëanor doesn't at least give the Narn a run for its money, from the fiery heights of Fëanor's oath through the near-success of the Nirnaeth to the final, desperate death of Maedhros and the wanderings of Maglor. But, putting that question aside, I agree that the Narn is more tragic than the Fall of Gondolin or Aldarion and Erendis--but I don't think it's the only tragedy.

And part of this relates to the endings--and I will admit I don't see how you can think that Aldarion and Erendis has a "good ending." Since you say this to disqualify it from being a tragedy, I assume you mean it in the colloquial sense of a "happy ending"--but there's nothing happy about it. Yes, it ends with more of a quiet despair than the violent raging against fate that characterizes the Narn, but this is, to me, more of a question of tragic degree than of tragic nature.

The ending of "the Fall of Gondolin" is another matter. If you look at it as a hopeful story, where Tuor and Idril make it out alive with the best lucky survivors, and get to start again, kicking off the ultimately hopeful story of Eärendil, then you have grounds to call it... erm... not-a-tragedy. (I was about to say a comedy, but no one gets married.) On the other hand... as we can see in "Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin," Turgon rejects Ulmo's message; the people of Gondolin do NOT mostly escape--Tuor's party is the exception. As a story by itself (and, remember, we are discussing this outside of its context as part of the wider Silmarillion), Tuor and Ulmo's hopes from the beginning of the story have been dashed.

So... again, I agree that The Fall of Gondolin is not as tragic as the Narn--but I don't think it holds that the Narn is the only tragedy.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

To answer some of your questions, I don't think Of Aldarion and Erendis andOf Tuor come anywhere close to the grandeur of tragedy in the Narn. They have their own grandeur, but it is not as tragic. "Tuor" is not written in the "right" language for tragedy.

Now... I have to ask... what is the right language for tragedy?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And part of this relates to the endings--and I will admit I don't see how you can think that Aldarion and Erendis has a "good ending."

I have to be more clearer when I write. I meant "good enging", not that the characters "ended well". "Good" as in, I like it.

Originally Posted by Form

Now... I have to ask... what is the right language for tragedy?

Well, TH does not have the right language for a tragedy. The tone is not right. And although LOTR has a sad/bittersweet ending, it's not a tragedy either in my eyes.

So... again, I agree that The Fall of Gondolin is not as tragic as the Narn--but I don't think it holds that the Narn is the only tragedy.

That boils down to the question of what you consider to be a tragedy.

It seems to me that you and I have different reactions to Aldarion and Erendis. For whatever reason it did not strike me as deeply as it did you. But I'll save that for the right chapter.

[Guinevere]

Before we go on to the next story, some belated thoughts.

When I first read the Silmarillion and especially the story of Túrin, I was deeply troubled.
It is so sombre and sad, ending in total despair and hopelessness. The injustice of it all bothered me most! Especially the faithful and steadfast Húrin really really didn't deserve such a cruel fate! Why did the Valar (who after all had intervened in some cases like when Maedhros was saved by Fingon, and Tuor) totally forsake him? Morwen and Túrin had their flaws, but still didn't deserve what they got. Túrin was so brave, always trying to start a new life and make things better. What in the end made him despair,"the worst of all his deeds" he can't really be blamed for ! (btw, how come Glaurung knew all this??)
Eru apparently doesn't care about "his children" at all, but leaves everything to Morgoth.

I just couldn't understand how the author of The Lord of the Rings could have written such a hopeless story!

In the Lord of the Rings I feel that there is a balance between hope and melancholy, that there is a merciful providence behind it all, in spite of the sadness that many things are irrevocably lost. Virtues like courage, faithfulness, love and pity are rewarded. The ending is bitter-sweet, sad and yet hopeful. When I finish reading the LotR, I feel sad, but not depressed and empty!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

When I first read the Silmarillion and especially the story of Túrin, I was deeply troubled.

As surprising as it may seem to you, when I read the Turin chapter in The Sil, I was so sick and tired of all the unfairness, curses, new identities et al, that I put off reading COH for two or three weeks. But then my curiosity got the better of me, and by the time I was done I was in love with the story.

Why did the Valar (who after all had intervened in some cases like when Maedhros was saved by Fingon, and Tuor) totally forsake him?

Concerning Turin, he rejected the Valar himself. Hurin, on the other hand...

Well, the Valar never came to rescue anyone. Sometimes the Eagles (by Manwe's orders or by their own will) helped people. But these were rare occurances compared to how many people found death or slavery in or near Angband. And even Ulmo, the black sheep when it comes to intervening, checked his involvement.

There were many stories like Turin's, I believe. People whose lives were destroyed by Morgoth, and who dedicated whatever remained to fighting him, however futile and desperate that seemed. I suppose there would have been many cases of lonely inividuals like that, or even bands. Barahir's group is an example of such. Their story is no less tragic or touching when it comes to it, but they haven't been raised to such a hight as Turin, and therefore their fall doesn't seem so low.

The Valar didn't help them. You can't help every single person.

Morwen and Túrin had their flaws, but still didn't deserve what they got.

One reason I love them both.

What in the end made him despair,"the worst of all his deeds" he can't really be blamed for ! (btw, how come Glaurung knew all this??)

Turin did a lot of things he couldn't really be blamed for, because he had only the best of intentions.

As for Glaurung, well, he's Glaurung. He's not your ordinary dragon.

I just couldn't understand how the author of The Lord of the Rings could have written such a hopeless story!

I'm glad he wrote both. And why wouldn't he? As an author, he probably wanted to try both. As a reader, I enjoy both and savour both, though they have different tastes.

When I finish reading the LotR, I feel sad, but not depressed and empty!

We clearly disagree about this, but I think that a depressing/empty - feeling ending is just as good as a fading/melancholy/bittersweet LOTR ending. They are both beautiful in their respective context. I love it that COH ends with a loud crash that leaves your ears hurting. I probably wouldn't have liked it half as much if it was more subtle or gentle.

[Guinevere]

Well, as I wrote, these were my first impressions. I still am not really fond of tragedies, but after reading the story in U.T. I appreciate it much more. In a way it is even more heartbreaking when you get to know the characters so closely and care about them!

Since I have read a lot more of and about Tolkien I've come to think that Tolkien's works, especially the Silmarillion, are partly his own way of pondering over those questions that engage us all: about death and immortality, good and evil, free will and providence and the meaning of suffering and injustice in the world.

In a way, the tragic stories are more realistic than the happy ones. Just read history (“a long defeat” indeed!) or listen to the news every day –it could lead one to despair!

And that's also the reason why I prefer stories that "lift up the heart"! ( see my signature)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I still am not really fond of tragedies...

Here it lies. I love tragedies!

Just read history (“a long defeat” indeed!) or listen to the news every day –it could lead one to despair!

This is bringing me off a tangent, but I think LOTR could also qualify for a "long defeat". It's victory, but the mood isn't exactly happy, and the world still lost more than it could have imagined - with all the departing Elves and fading magic/mystery/etc. It's still part of a very very very long defeat, one that still hasn't ended.