Unfinished Tales - Part One - II - Narn I Hín Húrin

[Estelyn Telcontar]

"The Tale of the Children of Húrin" is the longest chapter in UT, so we will divide our active round of discussion into sections. The first will encompass the sections: The Childhood of Túrin; The Words of Húrin and Morgoth; The Departure of Túrin; and Túrin in Doriath. It may be sensible to go one section after another within that framework, but if you have a contribution to make that crosses those boundaries, feel free to post at any time.

Comparisons to parallel accounts in the Silmarillion and in the book proper are welcome! The discussion is now open - I will contribute more on my part later.

[Boromir88]

I haven't been as intrigued by the Narn as much as the previous chapter. Although, I was expecting it, because I was blown away by Tuor's coming to Gondolin. I'm not all the well through the Narn yet, but one point in the beginning sections stands out.

That is the different perspective on the Fate of Men. And really the entire chapter seems a tale of whether Turin can control his fate, or is the curse of Morgoth the master?

Turin's childhood friend, Sador, says he's too simple of a person to know what happens to Men after death, only that it is different from Elves (who can be reincarnated). And the friendship between Turin and Sador is also interesting, as the simple Sador sort of takes on the role of an older mentor in Turin's childhood.

Then there's Hurin and Morgoth, where Morgoth tells Hurin 'Nothing' awaits him after death:

'Beyond on the Circles of the World I will not pursue them,' said Morgoth. 'For beyond the Circles of the World there is Nothing. But within tem they shall not escape me, until they enter into Nothing.'

It's probably one of the most painful (or maybe chilling?) thought Morgoth says to Hurin. We've been trying to answer what happens to us after death forever. And the thought of the 'Nothing' that awaits is certainly different, and terrifying. In some ways, perhapse more terrifying than the thought of eternal damnation. Granted, that thought isn't pleasant either, but it's certainly different from 'Nothing.'

It reminds me of Gandalf's death, but Gandalf makes "straying out of thought and time" sound more pleasant than Morgoth. Like, it's a really nice nap. After years of wandering, enduring hurts to both body and soul, Gandalf gets his rejuvinated nap beyond the Circles of the World. And even though Morgoth is the great deceiver, trying to crush Hurin's will, it makes you wonder who is right, Gandalf or Morgoth? Perhaps both are, for we know what awaits Morgoth. 'Nothing.'

[Formendacil]

I feel obliged to confess that I am not "getting into" the Narn. Part of this may well be because it isn't quite as neatly a digestible-sized chunk, like "Of Tuor." Part of this may reflect a literary mood that isn't really interested in the dance of fate and tragedy (for which you can blame the course I'm TAing on Greek Myth--more than enough Fate there to deal with). Mostly, though, I think in a weird sort of way that I'm resisting rereading the Narn because I now feel like I prefer to read it as The Children of Húrin.

This is particularly interesting, because I only realized this time around, while reading the notes to the first section of the Narn, that the Narn actually isn't as full an account as The Children of Húrin. In particular, I noticed endnotes 1 and 2 to the Narn, which say:

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales, Narn i Hîn Húrin, Note 1

At this point in the text of the Narn there is a passage describing the sojourn of Húrin and Huor in Gondolin. This is very closely based on the story told in one of the 'constituent texts' of The Silmarillion - so closely as to be no more than a variant, and I have not given it again here.

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales, Narn i Hîn Húrin, Note 2

Here in the text of the Narn is a passage, giving an account of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, that I have excluded for the same reason as that given in Note I.

The interesting thing here, for me, is the editorial quality of Unfinished Tales. I usually have a tendency to think of Unfinished Tales as Volume XIII (or Volume Zero) of the HoME, which is essentially a critical text looking at the evolution of Middle-earth--but this isn't what it is. It's just as much a companion piece to the (EDITED) Silmarillion and the "canonical" works--although it begins the "behind the scenes" work that will be fully treated in the HoME.

The excision of these repetitive accounts (justifiable, in and of itself, I think) was a cause for me to look back at Christopher Tolkien's introduction to Unfinished Tales, in which we read the following:

Originally Posted by Unfinished Tales, Introduction

When the author has ceased to publish his works himself, after subjecting them to his own detailed criticism and comparison, the further knowledge of Middle-earth to be found in his unpublished writings will often conflict with what is already 'known'; and new elements set into the existing edifice will in such cases tend to contribute less to the history of the invented world itself than to the history of its invention. In this book I have accepted from the outset that this must be so; and except in minor details such as shifts in nomenclature (where retention of the manuscript form would lead to disproportionate confusion or disproportionate space in elucidation) I have made no alterations for the sake of consistency with published works, but rather drawn attention throughout to conflicts and variations.

The interesting thing about this, to me, is that Christopher Tolkien, by excising the Narn accounts of the Gondolin episode and the Nirnaeth has glided over a potential conflict in the legendarium, rather than letting it stand. Possibly, I am making a lot more out of this than the situation actually presents, but I now want to take out my Children of Húrin and compare its accounts (which are presumably those of the Narn) with the Silmarillion accounts. I have it in my head that there was a comparison made somewhere here on the 'Downs, once upon a time, but I don't know if I'm making that up or not...

[Guinevere]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

It's just as much a companion piece to the (EDITED) Silmarillion

That's what it is for me - a most welcome complement to the Silmarillion! In the Silmarillion, everything is just briefly told, the protagonists are remote, mythical heroes with whom I cannot really sympathize. It was only when reading the Narn i Hin Hurin in Unfinished Tales, that those characters became real and "alive" for me and I could appreciate the story. It is good that finally "The Children of Hurin" was published where both parts (which were merged only in my head before) came together.

The characters are described very accuratly and realistically. Túrin as a boy has all my sympathy. Even before the Curse, he didn't have an easy childhood, with such a coldhearted mother! It speaks for him that he wasn't jealous of his little sister but was really fond of her.
The only person I do not like, and cannot understand is Morwen. Húrin, on the other hand, is shown as a warmhearted and affectionate father, but too often absent. Túrin's friendship with Sador is very touching. And Sador is quite a wise but humble man, I found no less than six "proverbs" in his speech!

[Galadriel55]

Although I've read COH many times already, only when I started reading the Narn I understood why I am so drawn to Morwen, over the other female characters, despite all her faults. She has such an overwhelming willpower that I feel reaching out of the pages to me. It pays for any flaws of hers in my eyes.

The only person I do not like, and cannot understand is Morwen.

This seems to be quite a common reaction on the Downs. I feel lonely in this respect. I understand and admire Morwen, though I can't really explain how or why.

So far I've read up to "The Words of Hurin and Morgoth", and I didn't notice any difference between UT and COH.

[Galadriel55]

The only difference I noticed so far between COH and UT was the addition of the Dragon-helm's history. Interesting facts.

Something about Turin that for some reason I did not mark in the chapter in the Sil:

Fear both the heat and the cold of your heart.

~per Melian

As always, Melian sees right through to the point. So many of Turin's misfortunes fell because these two moods replace on another very quickly.


~~~


After the lighthearted mood of Tuor and his Comming to Gondolin, the Narn seems to be even heavier and gloomier. But personally, unlike the majority, the latter appeals to me more. "Of Tuor..." lacks the depth of tragedy. No matter how beautiful the tale is, I always thought/felt that sad stories are much much much more deep, moving, and they just have some quality that happy stories don't.

I don't know if it's just me (it's entirely possible: my parents ask me why my piano repertoire that I get to choose is entirely minor and just sounds like a funeral, and I tell them that I can't play most major things with emotion, and sometimes playing major pieces makes me sick). My whole family prefers happy endings to stories, and I always go for the tragical ones. That might explain why I like COH / Narn so much.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've decided to allow us another week for the first part of this long chapter. That will give us time to catch up and encourage additional discussion before we move on.

[Galadriel55]

There is one note that caught my attention more than the others:

Note 7:

A marginal note in the text says here: "Always he sught in all faces of women the face of Lalaith."

This might be the reason for his friendship with Nellas, but also: compare:

"Turin, have you lived always with your heart and half your mind far away?"

~Beleg

"That was long ago, or so my childhood now seems, and a mist is over it - save only the memmory of my father's house in Dor-lomin."

~Turin

"I had a sister, Lalaith, or so I named her; and of her you put me in mind. But Lalaith was a child, a yellow flower in the green grass of spring; and had she lived she would now, maybe, have become dimmed with grief. But you are queenly, and as a golden tree; I would I had a sister so fair."

~Turin to Finduilas in COH


And this might also be one of the reasons that Turin marries Niniel (he feels odd around her because she's also his sister, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility of her being similar to Lalaith in some way either).

Originally Posted by Boro

It's probably one of the most painful (or maybe chilling?) thought Morgoth says to Hurin. We've been trying to answer what happens to us after death forever. And the thought of the 'Nothing' that awaits is certainly different, and terrifying. In some ways, perhapse more terrifying than the thought of eternal damnation. Granted, that thought isn't pleasant either, but it's certainly different from 'Nothing.'

I think that the most chilling part is the capital letter in "Nothing". Not that Hurin would hear the diffrence, but it has its effect on the reader. If it was just "nothing" - that's something more familiar (how many times have you said that you're doing nothing? - as an example). It's just a complete negative. But Nothing is now a thing, an actual something.... if that makes any sense.

[Guinevere]

The "Words of Húrin and Morgoth" make me really admire Húrin for his incredible courage and steadfastness (he is my favourite hero)- but probably it wasn't wise to mock Morgoth to his face! Would Morgoth have been less cruel if Húrin had just kept silent?

And what about Húrin crying out: "Marrer of Middle-earth, would that I might see thee face to face, and mar thee as my lord Fingolfin did!" Was "fate" at work to make this rash wish come true?

I can sympathize with Morwen when she tells Túrin "It is heavy on me in evil days to judge what is best to do." and the parting of mother and son is heartbreaking and proves that Morwen has feelings after all, even if she shows little of them.
But I just cannot understand her stubborn pride. After Túrin had arrived safely in Doriath and Thingol's messengers invited Morwen to come with them to Doriath - that would have been the safest opportunity to flee, with the Elves accompanying her and the baby! Why couldn't she overcome her foolish pride for the sake of her children?

To me it looks like Túrin inherited all his negative character traits from his mother.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

The "Words of Húrin and Morgoth" make me really admire Húrin for his incredible courage and steadfastness (he is my favourite hero)- but probably it wasn't wise to mock Morgoth to his face! Would Morgoth have been less cruel if Húrin had just kept silent?

Silence could also be mocking. Keeping quiet sometimes is just as bad as talking. And can you imagine what Morgoth would have done if Hurin didn't say a word?!

For me, this line stands out the most from the chapter:

Blind you are Morgoth Bauglir, and blind shall ever be, seeing only the dark. You know not what rules the hearts of Men, and if you knew you could not give it.

This shows Hurin's insight more than the talk about the Valar.

And what about Húrin crying out: "Marrer of Middle-earth, would that I might see thee face to face, and mar thee as my lord Fingolfin did!" Was "fate" at work to make this rash wish come true?

Hmm. Possibly.

I can sympathize with Morwen when she tells Túrin "It is heavy on me in evil days to judge what is best to do." and the parting of mother and son is heartbreaking and proves that Morwen has feelings after all, even if she shows little of them.

Of course she has feelings! What is she, a block of wood? I don't understand why she is viewed so negatively.

But I just cannot understand her stubborn pride. After Túrin had arrived safely in Doriath and Thingol's messengers invited Morwen to come with them to Doriath - that would have been the safest opportunity to flee, with the Elves accompanying her and the baby!

No, no, no, no, no. No. You don't understand her at all. She is the kind of person that holds pride and honour above all else, even life. If Aerin didn't offer her help, Morwen would have starved to death before she asked anyone for help herself, much less a stranger. And that was a situation of life and death. Going to Doriath was a choice between harsh life and harsh journey but better life as a guest. She would not live her life as a guest, as a beggar. Whatever happens to her, she will not beg.

She is a person with immense willpower. She has high expectations for herself and for others, and her will is what keeps her up, keeps her strong. She is never weak. Her willpower suppresses her deepest feelings (which shows just how much it pained her to send Turin away, since she could not resist the grief). In my opinion, the light in her eyes is a reflection of her inner power.

Morwen is no angel. But I respect and admire her. And I understand her.

To me it looks like Túrin inherited all his negative character traits from his mother.

Disagreed again. I already quoted Melian's words about his character:

Fear both the heat and the cold of your heart.

The coldness comes from Morwen, but the heat from Hurin. Neither is bad by itself - what makes the combination so bad is that Turin doesn't control them.


What do you think of Hurin and Morwen's debate in The Childhood of Turin, when Hurin wants them to flee to Brethil and Morwen to Doriath, and they forebode a tragedy in both? It's puzzling to me that each parent seems to sense only part of their children's story, together foreshadow the story almost in full (except for the Fall of Nargothrond), and yet make it so that both tragedies came true. Not intentionally or knowingly, but........ well, foreshadowing is foreshadowing.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

No, no, no, no, no. No. You don't understand her at all. She is the kind of person that holds pride and honour above all else, even life. If Aerin didn't offer her help, Morwen would have starved to death before she asked anyone for help herself, much less a stranger. And that was a situation of life and death. Going to Doriath was a choice between harsh life and harsh journey but better life as a guest. She would not live her life as a guest, as a beggar. Whatever happens to her, she will not beg.

I've held off commenting here because I think I've made my thoughts on Túrin clear elsewhere.

I'll just say about Morwen that it's notable pride is seldom, if ever, depicted as a desirable trait in Tolkien's Arda. It has a great tendency to lead one to ruin. Just ask Denethor, the Witch-king, Saruman, et al.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What do you think of Hurin and Morwen's debate in The Childhood of Turin, when Hurin wants them to flee to Brethil and Morwen to Doriath, and they forebode a tragedy in both? It's puzzling to me that each parent seems to sense only part of their children's story, together foreshadow the story almost in full (except for the Fall of Nargothrond), and yet make it so that both tragedies came true. Not intentionally or knowingly, but........ well, foreshadowing is foreshadowing.

The precognitive feelings experienced by both Túrin's parents are, I would think, warnings to sent to them by some outside influence. But by whom? Ulmo? Was he trying to tell them to let Túrin stay in Dor-lómin, where he would likely have been taken as a slave? To take the road that seemed less hopeful? And what then? To see Túrin escape, meet up with Elves, and be his messenger to Gondolin? Did Ulmo want Túrin before Tuor? Both were sons of the only Men to ever set foot in Gondolin. That is all speculation, but I still find it intriguing.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I've held off commenting here because I think I've made my thoughts on Túrin clear elsewhere.

I get the gist; I'm tired of arguing about that one too. But I'm not gonna give up on Morwen so easily

I'll just say about Morwen that it's notable pride is seldom, if ever, depicted as a desirable trait in Tolkien's Arda. It has a great tendency to lead one to ruin. Just ask Denethor, the Witch-king, Saruman, et al.

Well, although most time pride leads to ruin, I would still not be too general about the word "pride". There is "good pride" and "bad pride"***. "Bad pride" is the Saruman e al type: "I am the strongest! Smartest! Sauron is no match for me!" The "good pride" (or better pride?) is more like Morwen's "I will not fall off my moral level". When Turin joined the Gaurwaith in their evil ways I wondered where did his pride go, because he seemed not to care that he was above the level of an orc.



Why do I feel like I'm turning into Urwen?

The precognitive feelings experienced by both Túrin's parents are, I would think, warnings to sent to them by some outside influence. But by whom? Ulmo? Was he trying to tell them to let Túrin stay in Dor-lómin, where he would likely have been taken as a slave? To take the road that seemed less hopeful? And what then? To see Túrin escape, meet up with Elves, and be his messenger to Gondolin? Did Ulmo want Túrin before Tuor? Both were sons of the only Men to ever set foot in Gondolin. That is all speculation, but I still find it intriguing.

That's an interesting idea. But somehow I don't agree with it (big surprise...). I think that it's something internal. It's not the first or the last time that a name resonates for a specific person. But it is curious in any case that Morwen speaks against Brethil and Hurin against Doriath - why doesn't either see both? Perhaps it has something to do with their own fates - not their children's: Morwen died in Brethil and Hurin metaphorically died in Doriath (there he lost all that he had to live for; I don't believe that his specific actual deathplace is known, other than 'the Sea').


***An aside: English doesn't differentiate between the two, but Russian has different words for it, with clear good and bad connotations. It's hard to explain the meaning, but this is what the online dictionary says (though I don't entirely agree with it):

BAD PRIDE: the wish/goal to consider self the only and independant source of good

GOOD PRIDE: self-satisfaction in achieved work; self-esteem; knowledge of self-importance

It's hard to see the difference.... I don't know. I give up on the pride issue.

[Formendacil]

Part of the problem with Túrin's pride--since we're on the subject--is that he is ruled by it, rather than ruling it himself. Normally, this backwards reality of self control is thought of with regards to his fate ("Master of Fate by fate mastered"), but "Master of Pride by pride mastered" would have applied as well--if Túrin had ever claimed the title "Master of Pride" (which would have been ridiculously vain of him if he had anyway...). Perhaps it's just as well that he didn't.

The thing is, Túrin had things to properly be proud of: a great father, a great mother, and skills of his own that, Tolkien certainly indicates, were greater than any (or at least many) of those around him: when the Dragonhelm left Doriath's borders, he was sorely missed; when the outlaws took him in, he was rightly recognized.

The problem for Túrin is that he made no distinctions in his pride about when it was appropriate, when it was not. His challenges to the staid Elf-lords who wanted to avoid battle with Morgoth were not necessarily bad advice--note that Ulmo's message to Turgon was, like Túrin's advice, counter to conventional "Elvenking wisdom."

The problem for Túrin is, of course, his pride. I don't think there's any way one can deny that, and I certainly don't wish too. The thing is, he wasn't without reasons to be proud, and Túrin's pride was *NOT* enough to ensure his downfall: Glaurung had to enspell him at the Fall of Nargothrond to make sure he didn't go after Finduilas (about which, I would say, it is strongly suggested that Túrin would have avoided his fate--which was incest-driven, after all--if he had rescued Finduilas). Notably too, the fate that Glaurung tempts him away from Finduilas with is *not* pride in his neglected Lordship of Dor-Lómin or something similar, but concern for his mother and sister. Admittedly, Túrin's pride is connected to his feelings for his family, but I do not think it is a clear-cut case of "bad pride" that condemns Túrin.

And, likewise, Morwen. Without adding paragraphs more here, I daresay our judgment of her would be very different if the outcomes had been otherwise, or if we did not know what they would be.

[Galadriel55]

Formy, you said it better that I did!

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Admittedly, Túrin's pride is connected to his feelings for his family, but I do not think it is a clear-cut case of "bad pride" that condemns Túrin.

No, I didn't say it was. I said that pride isn't always a bad thing, and that Morwen's pride is understandable.


And yet another note on this topic: between life and honour Morwen always goes for honour. And her honour is closely related to her pride.

[Pitchwife]

For me, the most interesting elaboration in this part of the Narn, compared to the Silmarillion, is the chapter about Túrin's childhood, which helps me understand his character as an adult better. For one, there's his love and mourning for his sister Lalaith, which is but briefly mentioned in the Sil but treated more fully here. Secondly, there's the character of Sador Labadal, who is one of my all-time favourite characters in Tolkien's writings (as I never tire of mentioning), for several reasons.

First, I have a soft spot for well-handled handicapped characters (which is why Bran and Tyrion are among my favourites in ASOIAF [/aside to the initiates]). Second, he's that rare beast, an everyday unheroic mortal Man of the First Age, and gives us a glimpse of how normal Men of that time lived their lives while the likes of Beren and Húrin were busy fighting Morgoth (a theme which will be further elaborated later with the outlaws whom Túrin joins). Third, the interaction and relationship between him and Túrin shows us the more endearing side of Túrin's character, the kindness and pity of which he was capable as a child, although it is all too often overshadowed by his ofermod in his later life. I would reckon these few pages among the finest character-driven writing in Tolkien's works on the Elder Days, along with the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. And I must say that Morwen's disapproval of Túrin's gift of a knife to Sador is one reason why I find it hard to like her.

G55, I sort of see where you're coming from with your defense of Morwen*. She's certainly an interesting character (like e.g. Fëanor and many others, including Túrin himself) - great to have in a story, but not that great to have to live with. The problem with her, as I see it, is not her pride as such, but the fact that in case of doubt, she would put her pride and honour above all other considerations - including the needs of her young son (who missed her sorely in Doriath) and the safety of her unborn babe. Pride as such is OK, but you should know when it's wise to swallow it, and Morwen never did. This at least is one negative trait Túrin seems to have inherited from her.

I like your idea about Morwen=cold and Húrin=heat. Húrin certainly comes across as more warm-hearted (i.e. more generous and affectionate) character, which is why I instinctively find him more sympathetic, but I haven't yet considered that a higher soul-temperature may be just as pernicious if taken to the extreme. Good point.

I also very much like Formy's arguments to the point that nothing in Túrin's character would be enough to ensure all-out tragedy (even in the face of Morgoth's curse?) without Glaurung's additional meddling; but that's matter for chapters to come.
__________________________________________________ _____________

*(PS. - It turns out I can't rep you at the moment, but consider yourself virtually repped for your posts on this thread; that was well thought and well argued.)

[Pitchwife]

Also:

Originally Posted by G55

Why do I feel like I'm turning into Urwen?

Shush! We've been lucky so far.

[Galadriel55]

Pitch mentioned a few things that sparked some thought...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

For one, there's his love and mourning for his sister Lalaith, which is but briefly mentioned in the Sil but treated more fully here.

I wonder why this isn't labeled as "the first sorrow of Turin". Was he then too young to understand the full impact of Lalaith's death?

Originally Posted by Pitchie

Secondly, there's the character of Sador Labadal, who is one of my all-time favourite characters in Tolkien's writings (as I never tire of mentioning), for several reasons.

I think it is also interesting to compare Sador with Brandir. They are, in a way, interchangable. Both have a limp, both are wise, and both are close to Turin. However, Turin couldn't have treated them more differently. Just comparing Hopafoot vs Clubfoot, and name given out of pity vs an insult, gives enough information. Labadal was more of a mentor (and thus clearly superior and demanding respect) and Brandir more of a friend/equal, but that still leaves Turin's behavious to them. It shows how much Turin's tragedies have hardened him over the years; he is going from a kind, gentle boy to a harsh, demanding, about-to-explode man. As you said, his good qualities are often overshadowed.

Originally Posted by Pitch

The problem with her, as I see it, is not her pride as such, but the fact that in case of doubt, she would put her pride and honour above all other considerations - including the needs of her young son (who missed her sorely in Doriath) and the safety of her unborn babe. Pride as such is OK, but you should know when it's wise to swallow it, and Morwen never did. This at least is one negative trait Túrin seems to have inherited from her.

Yes!

Originally Posted by Pitch

*(PS. - It turns out I can't rep you at the moment, but consider yourself virtually repped for your posts on this thread; that was well thought and well argued.)

As good as having another green square under my CP. Thank you.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I wonder why this isn't labelled as "the first sorrow of Turin". Was he then too young to understand the full impact of Lalaith's death?

Well, if one looks at what *is* labelled the First Sorrow of Túrin, we see that it is his separation from his mother. From its location in the story, this is Túrin's first major sorrow *after* Morgoth cursed Húrin and his family. I might be the only one reading it this way, but it seems to me an implicit possibility that the author* of the Narn sees this as the first effect of the Curse in Túrin's life.

The reason I distinguish in my footnote between the author and Tolkien is because this reading seems too... unlikely. There is, first of all, the logical fallacy of post hoc, ergo propter hoc (after something, therefore because of it). More importantly, though, it doesn't seem congruent to me with Tolkien's paradoxically balanced treatment of fate and free will, which comes to the fore ESPECIALLY in the Narn.

This leads me to one of two possibilities:

1.) "Dírhavel" is right to lay this sorrow at the foot of the Curse, and therefore his editorialising of this as "the first of the sorrows of Túrin." Thus, this is NOT a case of post hoc, ergo propter hoc, but Tolkien's way of suggesting that this isn't only incidentally after the Curse, but in fact proceeds from the Curse.

2.) Tolkien is *not* making the Curse the cause of the sorrow, but is using Dírhavel to suggest that it *is* in order to further the paradox-balance in the story between Free Will and Fate.

If we go with the second reading (towards which I lean), we may still have to account for why this is the first sorrow of Túrin--we could always call it Dírhavel's editorializing and then forget about it, but that seems too easy and is unsporting anyway. There are, after all, legitimate sorrows--major sorrows--in Túrin's life so far: the aforementioned early death of Lalaith and the the loss of Húrin being foremost, and the loss of his father very closely parallels the actual case of the loss of his mother.

The only thing I can come up with about this is that the separation from Morwen was unnatural in a way that the separation from Lalaith (via death) and Húrin (via imprisonment) is not, and I think this holds some water. After all, the sickness that killed Lalaith was *not* primarily directed at her or any one individual (shades of Urwen notwithstanding) and although Húrin's imprisonment IS the result of a directed evil on Morgoth's part, one sort of EXPECTS soldiers to die or be imprisoned in war.

One does NOT expect mothers to send their sons away alone, and virtually orphaned... which brings me to a conclusion that rather neatly parallels my last post on this thread: that Túrin's sorrows are not (contra my Dírhavel editorial theory) the result of Morgoth's Curse, but the result of Morwen's choice--and, to continue on that thread of reasoning, perhaps the reason Morwen gets a bad rap is because we empathize with Túrin and feel the sorrow of his loss with him, wondering what mother would do that to her son.

And a thought that I'm having through all this, though I have nothing to make of it, is the fact that Tolkien lost his father and then his mother and was fostered "in Doriath."




*Who, incidentally, may not reflect Tolkien's own view of the matter.

[Galadriel55]

That's a really thorough and in-depth explanation, Form. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Formy

The only thing I can come up with about this is that the separation from Morwen was unnatural in a way that the separation from Lalaith (via death) and Húrin (via imprisonment) is not, and I think this holds some water.

I would agree with this, though for slightly different reasons. Going to Doriath was the first sorrow that Turin accepted by free will (there you have the theme again). He didn't have much choice, but nonetheless it was not something that he did not have any part in. He deliberately walked the way from Dor-lomin to Doriath. If he could not stop or control the Black Breath or Hurin's imprisonment, the separation from Morwen was his first self-inflicted sorrow.

Though there's a flaw in this reasoning, because the second sorrow of Turin is said to be when Morwen didn't follow him in spring. This was also out of his control.

So yeah, you're probably right about the Curse.

...wondering what mother would do that to her son.

This is the one time that she swallows her pride, and it's another reason to dislike her.

She's sending him to safety - and you're asking what mother would do that?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

She's sending him to safety - and you're asking what mother would do that?

I don't think anyone would blame Morwen for desiring to keep her son free, and out of thralldom. But we always return to the fact that Túrin's sorrow was not due only to leaving his home, but being forcibly parted from his family. It needn't have been that way, and Morwen's pride was the sole cause.

Moreover, though [Morwen] was willing that her son should be fostered in the halls of another, after the manner of that time, she would not yet humble her pride to be an alms-guest, not even of a king. Therefore the voice of Húrin, or the memory of his voice was denied, and the first strand of the fate of Túrin was woven.

If the family had travelled to Doriath together, it seems clear Túrin's "fate" would have been altered. Whether that would have been enough to wholly escape the curse is debatable, but still: as with he son later, Morwen aided the curse's workings with her own personal choices.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't think anyone would blame Morwen for desiring to keep her son free, and out of thralldom. But we always return to the fact that Túrin's sorrow was not due only to leaving his home, but being forcibly parted from his family. It needn't have been that way, and Morwen's pride was the sole cause.

No, he could have been a thral together with Morwen. I doubt he would be happier that way.

If the family had travelled to Doriath together, it seems clear Túrin's "fate" would have been altered. Whether that would have been enough to wholly escape the curse is debatable, but still: as with he son later, Morwen aided the curse's workings with her own personal choices.

And I see no reason to dislike Morwen for that. She's no Nostradamus to know what would happen to her family if she chose one thing over another. She chose what her heart told her was right, and what can she do about it if it's wrong? She made a mistake, no denial, but she's just a human!

Moreover, from a purely reader's position (which means that now I'm talking about her as a book characer rather than one I am imagining myself with), it is illogical for the story for her to make the right choice, if there is a "right" choice (as you said, it is still debatable). Sad stories don't happen if there isn't any story. Here you have to ask yourself: if you are the author intending to write a tragedy, would you really have the characters do everything "right" so that there is a happy, or happier, ending?

Morwen aided the curse. With a deed that was meant to defy it. How would she have known that? "Proud and stern" is who she is, with or without Morgoth's words. It just happens so that the curse draws out the negative side of all attributes of any character involved. Pride is not a bad thing, as was discussed already. The consequences of this particular pride were bad, through mischance rather than a fault of Morwen's.

And really, what do you expect her to do? You are looking at things too objectively. You are the reader; you know the past, present, and future of the characters, as well as all the little "dramatic irony" facts. They don't. Look at Morwen's choice with her knowledge, attitude, and point of view, not with yours.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by G55

No, he could have been a thral together with Morwen. I doubt he would be happier that way.

I think what Zil meant was that she could have gone with him; but the text says that her pregnancy was advanced by that time and journeying out of the question for her, so she can't be blamed for that.

[Boromir88]

Perhaps not directly pertinent to the discussion on Morwen, but I think it will interest G55 talking about "good pride" and "bad pride."

Normally, I think in Tolkien's writing (at least on Middle-earth) there is the stress on Pride being a vice. Gandalf is viewed much better because of his immense display of humility and sacrifice. I won't rehash the list of characters who become blinded by their pride. The tricky part is, Pride can lead you to greatness, and reaching accomplishments that no one thought possible. With that said, the same pride is a slippery slope to one's own downfall. I think in the case with Feanor and Turin, is while their pride was their reason for achieving Greatness, their pride leads to the inevitable Fall. Because ultimately, Pride blinds you from yourself and eventually consumes you. Once you start down the slippery slope, you can't avoid the inevitable going from being the master of your pride, to becoming mastered by pride.

What I think would interest you, G55, is Tolkien's differing opinion on ofermod. I don't recall the word ever being used in Tolkien's middle-earth related writings, but the concept is present. I believe the literal translation of ofermod is "excessive spirit," and most scholars view Beowulf's ofermod as a positive trait. It is Beowulf's "excessive sprit" which leads to Beowulf achieving greatness. Tolkien took a different view, and thinks Beowulf's ofermod leads to rash decisions and unnecessary deaths of Beowulf's comrades. Beowulf's "excessive spirit" blinded him and led to rash, and unwise decisions.

So, when talking about the context of Middle-earth, it doesn't matter whether one agrees with Tolkien's interpretation of ofermod. What matters is Tolkien's opinion on it and how it's present in his story. Ofermod is thus the "bad pride," it is the "excessive pride," which can be seen in a wide range of Tolkien's characters.

As far as Morwen, I really have no opinion, or it's kind of similar to my opinion on Denethor. Many flaws as a parent as a leader, but I can't hate them because I do see good traits, possibly redeeming traits. The primary one being, Denethor always remained stoutly opposed to Sauron. Minas Tirith was the stalwart tower of resistance, and Denethor bolstered that resistance until the very end when he lost all hope in the strength of his house and realm. Not the most sympathetic person, but not someone I could hate or call "evil." And Morwen is very similar, in my opinion. I agree she lets her pride and honor get in the way of the needs of her child, Turin. However, I can't beat up on her for being a bad person.

This is what makes me laugh though at the critics who will say Tolkien only wrote "completely bad or completely good" characters. I mean there are a few characters who, whether intended or not, come off that way. But, for the most part, I think there are more Denethors and Morwens than there are Elronds and Gandalfs.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I think what Zil meant was that she could have gone with him; but the text says that her pregnancy was advanced by that time and journeying out of the question for her, so she can't be blamed for that.

No, the pregnancy was not her fault. The text says though, that she delayed her decision on what to do in the event Morgoth won the battle, even though Húrin had specifically told her not to wait, but to leave as soon as she heard of ill news. She did not do so. And the desire to avoid being an "alms-guest" of Thingol is cited as one of the things foremost on her mind.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

As far as Morwen, I really have no opinion, or it's kind of similar to my opinion on Denethor. Many flaws as a parent as a leader, but I can't hate them because I do see good traits, possibly redeeming traits. The primary one being, Denethor always remained stoutly opposed to Sauron. Minas Tirith was the stalwart tower of resistance, and Denethor bolstered that resistance until the very end when he lost all hope in the strength of his house and realm. Not the most sympathetic person, but not someone I could hate or call "evil." And Morwen is very similar, in my opinion. I agree she lets her pride and honor get in the way of the needs of her child, Turin. However, I can't beat up on her for being a bad person.

I never meant to say that Morwen, or Túrin for that matter, were all bad. My point on both is that whatever mischief Morgoth had in mind for them was exacerbated by their personality flaws: in both cases pride was the main factor. If they'd been able to curb that, the effects of the curse would likely have been lessened.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Boro

The tricky part is, Pride can lead you to greatness, and reaching accomplishments that no one thought possible. With that said, the same pride is a slippery slope to one's own downfall. I think in the case with Feanor and Turin, is while their pride was their reason for achieving Greatness, their pride leads to the inevitable Fall.

Agreed on all counts.

So, when talking about the context of Middle-earth, it doesn't matter whether one agrees with Tolkien's interpretation of ofermod. What matters is Tolkien's opinion on it and how it's present in his story. Ofermod is thus the "bad pride," it is the "excessive pride," which can be seen in a wide range of Tolkien's characters.

Ok, I see it now. I see your point.

As far as Morwen, I really have no opinion, or it's kind of similar to my opinion on Denethor. Many flaws as a parent as a leader, but I can't hate them because I do see good traits, possibly redeeming traits.

Ah, I think I see the source of our disagreement about Morwen. You see the bad side of her, but say that she is redeemed in your eyes because of her good qalities. I, on the other hand, do not condemn her because of these traits, and therefore she has nothing to be redeemed from in my eyes.

Although, as you said, Tolkien's opinion on ofermod is not too positive, Morwen is a character loved and respected, despite her seemingly excessive pride (not only by me ). The whole Narn is written with the idea that Hurin's family brought ruin to all around them and brought about the Fall of three Elven kingdoms, but nonetheless are revered.

This is what makes me laugh though at the critics who will say Tolkien only wrote "completely bad or completely good" characters. I mean there are a few characters who, whether intended or not, come off that way. But, for the most part, I think there are more Denethors and Morwens than there are Elronds and Gandalfs.

I don't think even Gandalf and Elrond are really completely good. And Morgoth is not completely bad. They might be very very very light- or dark-grey, but not white or black. (Gndalf the White, haha...). I remember saying this on a different thread but I can't remember which; someone cited there Tolkien's letter in which he specifically said that Melkor is not purely evil.

Originally Posted by Inzil

No, the pregnancy was not her fault. The text says though, that she delayed her decision on what to do in the event Morgoth won the battle, even though Húrin had specifically told her not to wait, but to leave as soon as she heard of ill news. She did not do so. And the desire to avoid being an "alms-guest" of Thingol is cited as one of the things foremost on her mind.

I do believe it also said that she was "cheated by false hope", and believed that Hurin will soon return to Dor-lomin.

I never meant to say that Morwen, or Túrin for that matter, were all bad. My point on both is that whatever mischief Morgoth had in mind for them was exacerbated by their personality flaws: in both cases pride was the main factor. If they'd been able to curb that, the effects of the curse would likely have been lessened.

But they weren't, and it wasn't. And what's there to do about it, except for try to understand why they weren't?

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I do believe it also said that she was "cheated by false hope", and believed that Hurin will soon return to Dor-lomin.

This is correct and, I think, an important point. It's easy to ascribe all the mistakes made by Morwen and Turin to the 'negative' trait of pride, and indeed pride is a critical component in their tragedy, but in my view, the 'positive' traits of hope, pity, and compassion play just as large a role. That duality is nicely exemplified by Morwen's hesitation after the Nirnaeth, the cause for which the narrator seems to ascribe more or less equally to her hope that Hurin will return and her unwillingness to accept charity from Thingol.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Hope this isn't too off topic, but...

I have to say that, to me, Turin is perhaps (along with a
few of the sons of Feanor) the least likable of major characters
in the Silmarillion. perhaps one contributing reason is the treatment
in the Narn of free will. In Reader's Guide to the Silmarillion (1980)

Paul Kocher discusses (somewhat ambiguously) this free will problem.

In reflecting upon this grim tragedy of incest and suicide the
reader is apt to ask sooner or later wheather it is consistent with the
doctrine underlying the whole of The Silmarillion, that Elves and
Men have been created with wills free to choose between right and wrong.
This is to ask whether Morgoth's curse upon Hurin and his children
succeeeded, and this in turn is to ask whether Morgoth or Iluvatar by his
Providence governed the course of their lives...
Before and after the trances, however, free choices are made by Turin which
develop his situation in a direction leading toward his suicide.

He seems to be arguing both for the efficacy of Morgoth's curse AND
free will.

[Aiwendil]

A few people were wondering earlier about differences between the text in UT and that in The Children of Hurin. I had forgotten until just today that not long after the latter's release, someone writing under the name 'Hyalma' put together a comprehensive list of the divergences, which is available as a .doc file here.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

A few people were wondering earlier about differences between the text in UT and that in The Children of Hurin. I had forgotten until just today that not long after the latter's release, someone writing under the name 'Hyalma' put together a comprehensive list of the divergences, which is available as a .doc file here.

That must have taken a long time! I'll be sure to check it out in full when have some more free time. Thanks for the link, Aiwendil!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for that link, Aiwendil! That is a valuable resource.

Let's continue with the next sections of the chapter: Túrin among the Outlaws, Of Mîm the Dwarf, The Return of Túrin to Dor-lómin, and The Coming of Túrin into Brethil. I'll wait to see how intensive the discussion is before deciding whether to spend one or two weeks on this continuation.

The first thing that I noticed was the difference between Tuor and Túrin in their times as an outlaw. Tuor was alone and used his skirmishes to fight against evil; Túrin had to compromise, since he joined with evil characters - though he tried to do good, he was not always able to do so.

As related here, Túrin's dealings with the Dwarves are one aspect I see as positive. He can feel for them and manages to curb his pride.

A large section of the story is missing from this account, which makes it an unfinished tale, I guess, though it has an ending.

Túrin's return to his old home proves more negative for the people there - his attempt to free them goes awry. The last section closes with his choice of a new name - but calling himself "Master of Doom" does not make it so...

[Galadriel55]

I'm jumping a bit in chronology, but I've been waiting to make this point for almost two weeks.

When Turin is with the Outlaws, in Nargothrond, and in Brethil, he takes on "fake" names. But in the first two he is still called "Turin" in the narration. However, after he asks the Men of Brethil to forget his name and call him "Turambar" instead, the narration also switches the name! When the narration channels someone's thoughts from outside (Morwen, Nienor, Mablung, etc) he is referred to as Turin, but when it talks about him specifically, he is called Turambar, until, I believe, the last chapters when all is revealed. It is as if he commanded Tolkien himself to forget his real name!

Evidently, the third "name/identity change" was the most significant. And the most "complete". And the name that he takes is the least connected to his past ("Master of Doom" says little, at least compared to "Neithan" and "Agarwaen").

*Note: the Nargothrond material is skipped here; there is some in the appendix, but I'm basing my statements above mostly on COH.

Originally Posted by Esty

As related here, Túrin's dealings with the Dwarves are one aspect I see as positive. He can feel for them and manages to curb his pride.

Strangely enough, he is called both an Elf-warrior and a Dwarf-lord in just two (iirc) chapters, though he is just a Man. He is certainly a great Man, and has lots of compassion and understanding; he just doesn't always let it come out. He asks Beleg "how can an Elf judge a Man" (or something to that extent), but he himself does not judge his friends - Beleg, Mim, and the Outlaws. He becomes like them, only "judging" (or, I'd rather say "evluating") them on a rare occasion. He is open to them, and allows himself to understand them - and himself.

He's a really extraordinary person, with many hidden qualities that he subconciously suppresses.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

There is a noticeable lack of discussion on this thread this week - I do hope those interested weren't expecting a new one for the second part! Question: Would you like more time, or shall we conclude with the last piece of the story starting Monday?

I do realize that Thanksgiving weekend could affect the level of posting right now - if you want to join in but need more time, please say so, and we'll add another week for this part.

[Galadriel55]

I was also wondering about that - where is everybody?

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

There is a noticeable lack of discussion on this thread this week...

Well, talking to yourself isn't that fun...

I think Pitchie said something about discussing the Outlaws, but he didn't post.

[Pitchwife]

Sorry, I was, er, preoccupied with puzzling matters, and I'm a little too tired for serious posting today; but if you'd add another week, Esty, I'd be glad to offer my farthing's worth about outlaws and (maybe) more after the weekend.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Discussion on this section of the chapter will continue for the coming week - I look forward to reading your posts!

[Pitchwife]

Allright, Túrin's band of outlaws. Here we get another look at 'ordinary' Men of the First Age and how the disasters of war affected (or rather ruined) their lives:

Originally Posted by UT Narn, Túrin among the Outlaws

For in that region of ruin houseless and desperate Men went astray: remnants of battle and defeat, and lands laid waste; and some were Men driven into the wild for evil deeds. They hunted and gathered such food as they could; but in winter when hunger drove them they were to be feared as wolves, and Gaurwaith, the wolf-men, they were called by those who defended their homes.

So while some of Túrin's band, such as Forweg and Andróg, were outlaws and criminals to begin with, I think it's safe to assume that most of them were originally decent enough folk, driven to prey on their own kind by the extremity of need.

It's also interesting how Túrin comports himself among his new companions. First he just keeps aloof and does "little to restrain their evil deeds", although they disgust and at times enrage him. Then, after witnessing the attempted rape of a woman by Forweg and Andróg, he leads them into the wild in order to avoid further confrontation with their fellow Men; but only after he has met Beleg again (being thus reminded of how deep he has fallen) does he think of actively turning them to a better purpose and begins forging them into a guerrilla force fighting the servants of Morgoth. It's like he had forgotten himself and needed Beleg to remind him who and what he is.

This chapter and the following (Of Mîm the Dwarf) also contain two jewels of vividly drawn and delightfully morally ambiguous characters: Mîm (who will always remain another of my favourites) with his peculiar sense of honour, his deep but not unfounded resentment of Elves, his grudging respect for Túrin and his acerbic lines of dialogue, and on the other hand his antagonist Andróg, whose shrewd cynicism earns him my sympathy in spite of his rotten character.

As for the chapter The Return of Túrin to Dor-lómin, containing Túrin's reunion with Sador Labadal, his revenge on the usurper Brodda, Sador's death and Aerin's suicide in the burning hall, this is to me the part of the Narn which is closest to the spirit of Icelandic sagas, especially in the cameo character of Aerin.

Originally Posted by G55

But in the first two he is still called "Turin" in the narration. However, after he asks the Men of Brethil to forget his name and call him "Turambar" instead, the narration also switches the name! When the narration channels someone's thoughts from outside (Morwen, Nienor, Mablung, etc) he is referred to as Turin, but when it talks about him specifically, he is called Turambar, until, I believe, the last chapters when all is revealed. It is as if he commanded Tolkien himself to forget his real name!

Nice observation, I hadn't noticed that.

Originally Posted by G55

Evidently, the third "name/identity change" was the most significant. And the most "complete". And the name that he takes is the least connected to his past ("Master of Doom" says little, at least compared to "Neithan" and "Agarwaen").

Not coincidentally, I think - the name represents his attempt to distance himself from his past, turn over the metaphorical page and 'begin a new life' (something that never works out in my experience, as Túrin will find out soon enough).

[Guinevere]

I agree very much with everything Pitchwife has written!

Whereas the style of "Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin" reminded me more of the LotR, the CoH seems even more modern, with those morally ambiguous characters, rogues, and close characterisations.
In Doriath we meet Elves that are not only good and wise. (Saeros is a thoroughly disagreeable character, and Nellas very naïve)

Túrin is infuriatingly stubborn in his refusal to go back to Doriath with Beleg. "He strove with his pride" and again, pride kept the upper hand. And how could he expect the Elf to stay with him among the outlaws?
What also puzzles me is the fact that he apparently couldn't even remember Nellas!

I feel very sorry for Mîm! It must be terrible to be forced to share his home with the murderer of his son! And even if Túrin had promised not to "raise his hands against Elves or Men" he is not above pressing ransom from a Dwarf who hadn't done him any harm.

It's quite a while since I had read this part of U.T., and I didn't remember that there were such large gaps in the story - the sudden jump from the Mîm chapter to the Return to Dor-lómin is rather irritating.

Reading about Túrin's disastrous rashness and fit of temper in Brodda's hall is almost painful - poor Labadal! But I love Aerin - here is a true heroine with no false pride, doing quietly good without renown.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

As for the chapter The Return of Túrin to Dor-lómin, containing Túrin's reunion with Sador Labadal, his revenge on the usurper Brodda, Sador's death and Aerin's suicide in the burning hall, this is to me the part of the Narn which is closest to the spirit of Icelandic sagas, especially in the cameo character of Aerin.

Nice observation. I seem to remember that JRRT referred to Turin's story at least once as 'Turinssaga', which leads one to wonder to what degree the sagas influenced it.

Of course the burning of the hall reminds one of Njal's saga, though the circumstances are quite different. Turin's return to Dor-Lomin reminds me a bit of various young Icelanders returning to Iceland after going abroad and entering the service of a Norse king. And killing Brodda is of course exactly what any Icelander would do; no doubt if this were a saga Turin would have been sentenced to outlawry at the next Althing.

Indeed, at first glance Turin's outlawry appears to put the story somewhere in the genre of the outlaw sagas like Grettir's or Gisli Sursson's, but when you dig slightly deeper, Turin's outlawry differs significantly from theirs. If this were like those sagas, Sador's, Beleg's, and Brodda's kinsmen would want vengeance and Turin would be constantly on the run from them. Moreover, though both had sympathizers and allies, Grettir and Gisli were basically lone figures. Turin, on the other hand, is always falling in with some group or other.

[Pitchwife]

Actually, Aiwendil, I think the saga character that is most clearly a model for Túrin has to be Sigurd the Volsung - dragonslayers both, and if I get the meaning of Sig-urd right (sig=victory and Urd=one of the Norns, goddesses of fate), doesn't that remind us of Túrins pseudonym Turambar? (Not my thought, but I can't at the moment remember where I read it; and I guess Sigurd could probably be construed as meaning something like "fated to be victorious" or some such - any Old Norse scholars around here?)

I, too, had Njals saga in mind when I wrote that bit about Aerin, but I also see echoes of Gudrun Gjuki's daughter and her 'Easterling' husband Atli in her and Brodda - not a happy marriage either, and in the Norse versions of the story she actually kills him (to avenge her brothers). It all doesn't add up to a 1:1 correspondence (which would be boring anyway), but I think we have here some of the ingredients that went into Tolkien's very own stew.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Túrin is infuriatingly stubborn in his refusal to go back to Doriath with Beleg. "He strove with his pride" and again, pride kept the upper hand. And how could he expect the Elf to stay with him among the outlaws?
What also puzzles me is the fact that he apparently couldn't even remember Nellas!

"Have you always lived with your heart and half your mind far away?" (from memory) - Yes, he did. When he was with Nellas, he wasn't really with her - he was with Lalaith. I remember posting a while ago about this somewhere, but there is a note that says that (from memory again) "in all faces of women he sought the face of Lalaith". He is still that lost child who just experienced first grief, even though he pretends to be a "hard man by fate". Well, he doesn't exacly pretend, he is - but there is still an element of a child in him.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I feel very sorry for Mîm! It must be terrible to be forced to share his home with the murderer of his son! And even if Túrin had promised not to "raise his hands against Elves or Men" he is not above pressing ransom from a Dwarf who hadn't done him any harm.

Well, it's Androg who's done the killing, and he was punished harshly by Mim. But I agree that it is not easy to bear the presence of such a person every day in your own home. Turin's ransom is a different thing altogether, though the point is still valid.

But as much as I pity Mim, I can't call him an angel. Time and again he shows that he's no brave hero.

You made me think of something. Turin and Mim became very close, because they read each other's hearts. They have things in common - both were not masters in their own house (Mim at Amon Rudh and Turin in Dor-lomin), both had strict principles based on pride, and both are unable or unwilling to forgive. They speak a common language.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

It's quite a while since I had read this part of U.T., and I didn't remember that there were such large gaps in the story - the sudden jump from the Mîm chapter to the Return to Dor-lómin is rather irritating.

Indeed!

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Reading about Túrin's disastrous rashness and fit of temper in Brodda's hall is almost painful - poor Labadal!

Saying this, I would like to compare the Labadal of Turin's youth and his manhood. The first Labadal is a friend. Sometimes a guide and a teacher, but still a friend. An equal, or even a superior. The second Labadal is a faithful servant - but much inferior. Is it only Turin's age that made the difference? The disappearance of Hurin and Morwen? His own weakness (physical, yes, but also spiritual compared with Turin's might. Perhaps also the weakness of the "strawheads" in the country in general)?

Here we once again see the repetition of wisdom being a lesser thing than strength, although it should have been the opposite.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

But I love Aerin - here is a true heroine with no false pride, doing quietly good without renown.

I would say with renown, but secret renown. But she doesn't do it for renown. Makes any sense?

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Moreover, though both had sympathizers and allies, Grettir and Gisli were basically lone figures. Turin, on the other hand, is always falling in with some group or other.

I don't know any of the sagas that you mentioned, but I want to pick on that statement. Turin lives with a group. He is physically part of the group. But he is still alone at heart.

Edit: xed with Pitch