Unfinished Tales - Part Three - V - The Battles of the Fords of Isen

[Estelyn Telcontar]

In addition to battle information, as the title says, this chapter offers a number of other helpful tidbits about Rohan, its geography, history, and relationship to its neighbours and to Gondor. Théoden and the importance of his son Théodred and nephew Éomer, and the influence of Grima Wormtongue on the King, are the central themes.

One of the things that raised more questions than it answered when I first read LotR was the fact that Théodred died off-stage, so to say. I didn't understand why such an important event was not told in greater detail. The addition of his death to the movie was one of the positive aspects, strengthening the background of the Rohan plot. However, as we read here, he did not die at home, but on the battlefield within a brief time after his injury. What do you think is the significance of his last words, which were passed on to his father?

Those readers who are interested in the minor characters of Grimbold, Elfhelm and Erkenbrand find more information about their role in the battles here. Some good material for fan fictions or RPGs is included!

There is also a bit of speculation on what might have happened if things had gone differently. Do you think they could have been better?

We read information on military ranks, and the course of the battles is told. As I'm not an expert in this field, I will leave discussion on that to those who are more knowledgeable.

Quite frankly, had I not been committed to posting on this chapter, I probably would not have read it. But I found myself interested in some of the information anyway! Have you read this chapter (before)? If so, what was/is your impression?

[Inziladun]

I've read this chapter many times. I do like the different perspective of Saruman's attacks from field commanders Grimbold and Elfhelm.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

One of the things that raised more questions than it answered when I first read LotR was the fact that Théodred died off-stage, so to say. I didn't understand why such an important event was not told in greater detail. The addition of his death to the movie was one of the positive aspects, strengthening the background of the Rohan plot. However, as we read here, he did not die at home, but on the battlefield within a brief time after his injury. What do you think is the significance of his last words, which were passed on to his father?

I've never been that fussed about Théodred's non-appearance in TTT. There wasn't time to develop him as a character, so his death scene might have just felt tacked on. All the reader needs to know is that Éomer becomes the King's Heir when he's killed.
His final words were passed on to the King in the hope that he would then authorize a full scale military action against Saruman, but Wormtongue merely twisted them to suit his ends.
I find it interesting to contrast Théoden's reaction to the death of his son to Denethor's. Théoden, I think, used the memory of his son as a motivation to overcome Saruman, and I think that could have been a factor in his throwing off the shadow of Wormtongue and finally listening to Gandalf. After all, Gandalf had tried to talk to Théoden before (after being Saruman's prisoner) and had been rebuffed.
Denethor, however, closed himself off emotionally after Boromir died, and became even more determined to listen only to his own counsel.

An overarching theme I see time and again in Tolkien's books, the tendency of evil's hate to hurt itself, is apparent in the fact that we are told Saruman harmed his own efforts because of his obsession with killing Théoden.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

There is also a bit of speculation on what might have happened if things had gone differently. Do you think they could have been better?

Probably not. I don't see how the Rohirrim could have come out of the battles differently, without either having more warning of Saruman's intentions, or the earlier removal of Wormtongue's influence.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Quite frankly, had I not been committed to posting on this chapter, I probably would not have read it. But I found myself interested in some of the information anyway! Have you read this chapter (before)? If so, what was/is your impression?

As I said, I've read it, and the entire book, many times. I like the feel of the story, the sense of breathless edginess the knowledge of an imminent attack brought to the rank-and-file.

[Formendacil]

Like Inzil, I've read this chapter many times before and I would have been quite happy if Tolkien had written many more like it; I am one of those readers he talks about in his letters as wanting "more information" about everything. In this respect, I almost like the two appendices here more than the main text itself. The schema of Rohan's military hierarchy and a consideration of the geopolitical importance of Isengard, Helm's Deep, and the Fords of Isen together are just the sort of information that I would love to have more of--and that I am glad I am able to have at all.

I am perhaps the reverse of Esty in that I never really wondered why the Battles of the Fords of Isen were not part of the main LotR text. I took it in the manner of which it was written--which is to say peripheral--as indicative of the actual importance of the battles. It took reading this chapter of Unfinished Tales to change that position. At the same time, however, I don't really think it needs to be in the main LotR text. After all, The Lord of the Rings is a story following the main characters (Hobbits and Aragorn, to limit them to the smallest possible number), NOT an epic covering the entire War of the Ring. Speaking of epics, there's good precedent for only showing a slice of the war--and not even the most important slice. The Iliad, after all, shows only 2 weeks of a 10 year war and does not include the beginning, the end, or even the death of Achilles.

Nor is this the only battle of the war left out. What about the Battles in Lórien, Mirkwood, Erebor, or Bree? We only hear of these after the fact, and not always in great detail. Yet the Battle of Erebor, if no other, was at least as crucial as the Pelennor. Similarly, the first salvos of the war, when Sauron forced the passage of the river, don't even get a detailed description in "The Hunt for the Ring" where they're a relatively greater plot-point than in the LotR-at-large. Like all of these battles, the Fords of Isen (I & II) are left out because they don't involve our main characters--or even our secondary characters after they've been adopted into the main narrative (like Éomer circa "The King of the Golden Hall" or Imrahil around "The Siege of Gondor."

All of which is to spend, perhaps, more words on the matter than it necessarily warranted... but the CbC could use a good tussle, right?

[Guinevere]

I have read this chapter just once before, and now again. It was interesting, and with all those background details creates the impression of real history. I enjoyed reading a bit more about Theodred, and his friendship with Eomer! I looked up the dates and found that Eomer was 11 and Eowyn 7 when their mother died and they came to the king's house. Theodred was 24 at that time. (btw, Theodred and Boromir were exactly the same age! I guess they must have known each other...)

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

One of the things that raised more questions than it answered when I first read LotR was the fact that Théodred died off-stage, so to say. I didn't understand why such an important event was not told in greater detail. The addition of his death to the movie was one of the positive aspects, strengthening the background of the Rohan plot.

I agree! When reading the LotR, I wondered why Theoden didn't grieve more for his son! Only Grima mentions his death, and (after reading U.T.!) I found it very strange that when the company have reached the Fords of the Isen, Théoden says only

"Alas! Must we pass this way where the carrion-beasts devour so many good Riders of the Mark?"

and when Gandalf shows them the mound on the islet, where, (to go by U.T.) Theodred is buried, he mentions only that

"here lie all the Men of the Mark that fell near this place""Here let them rest!" said Éomer. "And when their spears have rotted and rusted, long still may their mound stand and guard the Fords of Isen!"

Hadn't Theodred's last words "Let me lie here until Éomer comes!"been reported to him??
A possible explanation might be that Tolkien had only later the idea of the king's son being buried on the islet in the fords.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Those readers who are interested in the minor characters of Grimbold, Elfhelm and Erkenbrand find more information about their role in the battles here. Some good material for fan fictions or RPGs is included!

I also think that Theodred would be an ideal fanfiction hero!

[Snowdog]

This has always been one of my favorite chapters from UT. Since I first acquired the paperback from a kiosk at a grocery store check-out counter in "82. Since then, when I re-read LOTR and got to the point in the story when the battle happened, I'd pause my reading and go and read this chapter before continuing. It helped fill in some of the story.

I'll have to go read the chapter again now that this discussion is on, but I'll start with a few overview comments. My apologies if I get anything off here as it's been a while since I've read it. I'll post again after reading.

As far as the military strategy of Rohan goes, it was the presence of a strong central leader in Theodred that carried the field. Yet it was the objective of Sarumann in the 1st battle to kill Theodred, partially for this reason. Afterward in the absence of Theodred to lead them, it fell to Grimbold, Elfhelm and Erkenbrand to command the Rohirrim forces 'until Eomer comes'. Good commanders all, they disagreed on the best defence, and underestimated the strength of the Isengard forces that could get to the east side of the River Isen by Isengard. It was these 'warg riders' that decimated the light screening force east of the river and lost the Fords. In turn, the Rohirrim carried out a superb defence and fighting withdrawal under the circumstances.