Hobbit2 - Chapter 04 - Over Hill and Under Hill

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The title of this chapter seems to foreshadow Frodo's alias in FotR! We also meet the primary foes of LotR here, the goblins/orcs. They are more dangerous than the trolls, of course, especially since they are said to be intelligent in their own way, but it's early in this tale and they seem to be less important here than in the Middle-earth we see later.

How do you see Gandalf's actions in this episode? Can Fili and Kili be blamed for saying the cave is safe when even the wizard couldn't find anything suspicious on closer examination?

Bilbo seems to be just luggage in this chapter - that reminds me of Merry's complaint of being treated like baggage by the Rohirrim in LotR.

How would our reading of this chapter be different if we didn't always have the thought of LotR in the back of our minds?


(Link to the previous discussion)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

The title of this chapter seems to foreshadow Frodo's alias in FotR!

Perhaps that's where Gandalf got the idea for it.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

We also meet the primary foes of LotR here, the goblins/orcs. They are more dangerous than the trolls, of course, especially since they are said to be intelligent in their own way, but it's early in this tale and they seem to be less important here than in the Middle-earth we see later.

In this case the goblins don't seem to be serving anyone but themselves, certainly with no thought to Sauron (who oddly enough was recuperating in his 'summer home' not too far away). To me that's a sign that they served him only out of fear, and that in his absence were mainly disposed to lower-case 'evil': kidnapping, looting, pillaging, and so forth, as opposed to Sauron's megalomaniac obsession with world domination.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

How do you see Gandalf's actions in this episode? Can Fili and Kili be blamed for saying the cave is safe when even the wizard couldn't find anything suspicious on closer examination?

Well, if Gandalf missed the danger, I don't think anyone would have said anything to Fili and Kili. Personally, I like seeing Gandalf make occasional mistakes. It reaffirms his essential humanity, and distances him from such lofty 'angels' as Manwë and Ulmo.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

How would our reading of this chapter be different if we didn't always have the thought of LotR in the back of our minds?

Well, the first-time reader would possibly be more concerned that the goblins would recapture at least some of the group, and the Ring would not be in his mind at all. He might also at this point be getting a little tired of Gandalf always being there to save the day, not knowing how soon that would change.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Bilbo seems to be just luggage in this chapter - that reminds me of Merry's complaint of being treated like baggage by the Rohirrim in LotR.

He's quite literally luggage in this chapter too, having to be carried by Bombur and Nori.

Although, I would also point out the dwarves seem rather...useless on the journey so far. I'm not sure if useless is the right way of putting it, but they're doing an excellent job of getting stuck in unfortunate situations (that really aren't of Bilbo's making). First they walk right into the troll camp one-by-one, insuring that all of them get captured (and thus needing rescuing from Gandalf). Then in this chapter the only one who wakes from Bilbo's screams is Gandalf.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, the first-time reader would possibly be more concerned that the goblins would recapture at least some of the group, and the Ring would not be in his mind at all. He might also at this point be getting a little tired of Gandalf always being there to save the day, not knowing how soon that would change.

And that was my thought while reading this chapter "The dwarves get themselves stuck again and Gandalf has to come to the rescue." Although, this does change, I wonder if it's necessary to have both the troll encounter and this encounter with the goblins. The goblin story becomes more important later, and also in Bilbo bumping into Gollum...but I'm not sure it's necessary to have 2 situations, so close together where Gandalf comes in for a miraculous rescue. Tolkien commented in a letter that the Eagles should be used sparingly, and maybe the same could be said for Gandalf in The Hobbit, so far?

Some other parts that stood out to me. In the previous chapter, I shared my adoration for the description of Elrond, and in this chapter, I feel there was another beautiful passage, with the description of the storm:

All was well until one day when they met a thunderstorm - more than a thunderstorm, a thunder-battle. You know how terrific a really big thunderstorm can be down in the land and in a river-valley; especially at times when two great thunderstorms meet and clash. More terrible still are thunder and lightning in the mountains at night, when storms come up from East and West and make war. The lightning splinters on the peaks, and rocks shiver, and great crashes split the air and go rolling and tumbling into every cave and hollow; and the darkness is filled with overwhelming noise and sudden light.~Over Hill and Under Hill

It goes on with the description of the stone giants, but I didn't want to post half a page of text. But this part, to me, is like something you would read in LOTR. In this one paragraph, the thunderstorms are terrific and great, and can fill darkness with "sudden light." Yet, also, they are terrible, warring, splintering, and crashing. It's reminiscent of what Galadriel would become had she taken the Ring:

"In place of a Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair!"~The Mirror of Galdriel

In this one paragraph, we get Galadriel would be fair, beautiful, and lovely. Yet, also, terrible, dreadful, and despairing. Again, all I can say is...love it.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Inziladun
In this case the goblins don't seem to be serving anyone but themselves, certainly with no thought to Sauron (who oddly enough was recuperating in his 'summer home' not too far away). To me that's a sign that they served him only out of fear, and that in his absence were mainly disposed to lower-case 'evil': kidnapping, looting, pillaging, and so forth, as opposed to Sauron's megalomaniac obsession with world domination.

Reminds you of Shagrat and Gorbag dreaming of "the good old days" and free lancing on their own away from Mordor.

The dwarves aren't totally usless in this chapter. Thorin stops with Galdalf to fend off their goblin pursuers.

And of course, even though Tolkien didn't have his later Ring conception yet, it is a crucial chapter not only for leading to the Ring being found, but the beginning of Bilbo's growth and the correctness of Gandalf's selecting him over the dwarves objections.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

And of course, even though Tolkien didn't have his later Ring conception yet, it is a crucial chapter not only for leading to the Ring being found, but the beginning of Bilbo's growth and the correctness of Gandalf's selecting him over the dwarves objections.

Indeed! This is the first time Bilbo shows some courage, common sense, and, well, independance. This time he uses it for his own life's sake; next time he'll save the whole company.

[jallanite]

This chapter brings in and exits out the infamous “stone-giants” almost unmentioned elsewhere.

Two chapters further on Tolkien remarks:

‘I must see if I can’t find a more or less decent giant to block it up again,’ said Gandalf, ‘or soon there will be no getting over the mountains at all.’

The “giant” here mentioned may be one of these “stone-giants”, for Gandalf would likely be seeking a giant in the vicinity of the cave.

In The Fellowship of the Rings, Book I, in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”, Sam Gamgee remarks:

But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.

Here Sam’s use of the word “Tree-men” suggests that in this case what was seen was not a stone-giant, but rather an Ent, of whom the Hobbits are here imagined to have some tradition, although later on neither Merry nor Pippen seem aware of such traditions.

Possibly the stone-giants of the Misty Mountains are to be imagined as a larger variety of the trolls already encountered in this tale. In The Lord of the Rings, Appendix F, I, Trolls, Tolkien explains:

Trolls took such language as they could muster from the Orcs; and in the Westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech.

Therefore the trolls met with by the dwarves and Bilbo were “Stone-trolls” and, taking the word giant as usually interpreted in modern English, a Stone-giant was a larger variety of Stone-troll.

These stone-giants in their gleeful tossing of stones appear to be influenced by pure exuberance brought on by the stormy weather. Seemingly the stone-giants don’t notice the dwarves, Bilbo, Gandalf, the ponies, and the single horse. No wonder Sauron didn’t bother with them, especially since they would turn to stone permanently if they ventured into the daylight.