Annoying experts

[Knight of Gondor]

I didn't want to start this topic at first, because it would seem that it belonged to others. This topic stems from the topic Annoying Amateurs, wherein we Downers can offer our complaints for amateurs who think they know as much or more than those of us who have read the books and even history books -- and they turn out to be completely ignorant.

This thread is for us to offer our thoughts and complaints about those who maybe do know as much or more, but "swagger it, swagger it my little cock-a-whoop". I had a case where a fellow I knew seemed to recall that Tom Bombadil sent the Ents to Helm's Deep. I was aghast that he kept insisting that happened, and when I finally got the book and challenged him to find it, he couldn't, but never admitted defeat.

Let's keep it happy, though!

[PaleStar]

You make a good point; alot of 'experts' that I've run into are very cocky...

[Gorwingel]

Oh I have run into this many times. I had a friend who whenever I would say the name of a character he would immediately correct my pronunciation, even though I swear I was saying the name correctly. I hated it because he was making me look like an idiot, and himself a genius. Some of the names are hard, and most of them are from a made up language! So I thought that he should of at least have given me a break (and besides at the time I was still quite new to the world of Tolkien).

[Knight of Gondor]

Okay, here I must plead guilty, for I myself might possibly correct pronunciation. I don't do it in an arrogant "You're wrong, dude!" style, but just more out of personal preference. In that case, I would hope to be correcting a semi-annoying amateur, but that doesn't make you one.

[Gorwingel]

Well, it would go like this...
I would say the name of a character, and then he would say "who?” and then I would say the name of the character again, and then he would say, "Oh, you were talking about...".
I don't know, I just found the act of it quite annoying.

But I am not trying to be mean in any way, shape, or form to people who correct people's pronunciation of the names. It is just that I am a person who has read the books multiple times, seen the films multiple times, and I am a member of the prestigious B-D's. So I personally thought that I was unfairly targeted (I believe that his level of knowledge was about equal to the level of mine, it is just that he had grown up in a family of fantasy literature lovers, and so he had grown up with the books, and I had not).

[Saraphim]

My particular breed of annoying is the fact that I never stop talking about the Lord of the Rings. I seize every opportunity to blather on about the books and/or movies to people whether I know them or not.

I find minute similarities in things in real life to Tolkien's universe, and then I talk about them for a very long time. To the annoyance of those in my immediate vicinity. It also doesn't help that I use more vocabulary than most of my fellow teenagers, either, but that's thier own fault. (see the "(Sp?)" thread for more of my thoughts on this )

[Firefoot]

I never stop talking about the Lord of the Rings.

Yeah, this is closer to me, too. Except around my parents, lest I find myself on a time limit on the computer for over-obsessedness (they've done it to my brother before, not for LotR). Most people generally don't want to hear about it, so then I start to doodle in notebooks, on folders, whatever is handy.

I did receive one comment once in school. I was reading until I heard someone nearby mention Frodo or something and I glanced over and started listening. Someone noticed and said, "What, just because we're talking about LotR means you have something to say?"

[Gil-Galad]

i congrats you on this thread, even though you didn't acknowledge me in the beginning post...but anyway...


its hard being an expert here since more then half the people don't even understand you! so i keep to myself most of the time...

[Mad Baggins]

Yeah...whenever someone referred to the Ents as trees, I screamed, "ENTS!" in their ear. That probably became annoying, but I don't like it when I'm corrected by experts. Especially constantly. It's really icky.

[Knight of Gondor]

You guys have this all wrong. We're supposed to complain about others that annoy us, not how we ourselves can be annoying!

Well, it would go like this...
I would say the name of a character, and then he would say "who?” and then I would say the name of the character again, and then he would say, "Oh, you were talking about...".

Then I'm not as bad as that, Gorwingel. I just quietly repeat the name to the person in its correct form, then shrug and grin to show that it's not a big deal, I'm just being picky about it. Usually they just laugh and go "whatEVER".

Yeah, this is closer to me, too. Except around my parents, lest I find myself on a time limit on the computer for over-obsessedness (they've done it to my brother before, not for LotR).

That's nothing. I got banned by my parents from Barrow-Downs...the DAY before TTT released in theaters! We drove them nuts with it, but we eventually let it get hold of them too.

Sorry, Gil-Galad, did you deserve some credit for that? Ha ha, sorry...

[Lyta_Underhill]

Don't you just hate those people who back up their assertions with quotes from Tolkien's Letters and thereby kill a thread? The quotes from Letters can be like the big Monty Python foot sometimes!
For some reason, for a while, I noticed that my own posts would kill a thread, especially if it was about Pippin. I think I hit the Twilight Zone with regards to Pippin sometimes and derail threads that way. I'm sure some of my ramblings on how Pippin was the Hand of Providence and it was fated that the wrong thing would turn out right if only Pippin had a hand in it irritated someone out there! Or how about the loosely conglomerated group of Frodophiles, of which I am one...they all seem to gather in certain threads and go on about how admirable Frodo is and jump on anyone who may say "nay!" (I am poking fun at myself yet again...)

Cheers!
Lyta
(finally posting again after a loooooooong silence...well, for me anyway!)

[HerenIstarion]

Folks, you know you do sound ever complaining . Some people annoy you as they are amateurs, the rest are hated for being experts. What are you after, than? The standard, the image of ideal Tolkien fan I crave for! Probably that is congruent with the standard of average citizen? Middle aged, well-of, happily married and well employed, parent of two blondish blue-eyed infants and, of course, psychologically balanced?

Don't you just hate those people who back up their assertions with quotes from Tolkien's Letters and thereby kill a thread?

Provided that letters confirm the assertion, can't see what goes wrong there

Suppose the thread deals with Numenor, and some say its image must have been based on Samurai Japan, and some nay, it was Ancient Rome Tolkien had in mind, and than yours truly turns up, and gives an assertion as of its image being based on Ancient Egypt, and backs himself up with the following:

Letter 211 To Rhona Beare

The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' – the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in 'theology' : in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan – but this would take long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no oven 'religion', or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies among the 'good' or anti-Sauron peoples in The Lord of the Rings.)

Thread is, naturally, dead, for there is nothing more to speculate about, but, well, is the end of discussion mere discussion, or possible discovery of some new information/truth?

cheers

[Lyta_Underhill]

Thread is, naturally, dead, for there is nothing more to speculate about, but, well, is the end of discussion mere discussion, or possible discovery of some new information/truth?

Ah, HI, ever the embodiment of the little joke I was having! Can we say "Canonicity?" I do enjoy those quotes from Letters actually, but, as you say, there are truths to be uncovered and the 'letter' itself leaves off at Tolkien's mechanism of subcreation rather than the effect on the reader.

I hope I didn't sound like I was complaining!
Cheers!
Lyta

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

"Experts are never annoying, only interesting." - Letter #600.

"Taking advantage of one's knowledge to confuse people with spurious quotations is a bit of a giggle." - Confucius

"I agree with what Confucius just said." - Karl Marx

"Everyone's a critic" - Anonymous critic.

[HerenIstarion]

Should I add that threads come an go, but Canonicity/Truth issue lives on...?

edit:

Whatever the cross-posting issue, I do not have much to add really, but wishing to add my tuppence (sp?) worth, I would like to let all of you know that I agree with Letter 600 mentioned above, lol

[VanimaEdhel]

Hmmm...I'm guilty of every variety of correcting people's pronuncations. Even though I'm by no means as much of an expert as, say...well, 99.95% of the experts on the Forum...I always correct how people say things - especially when they try to pronounce the Elvish names for things. Although my friends are just like me, so we can be annoying in pretentious as a unit at least.

But you know another type of annoying Tolkien pseudo-mini-not really-expert I am? The one that randomly pulls out The Sil references to go into everyday life without explaining them to the other people who haven't read The Silmarillion. Do any of you find yourself doing that? I try to stop, but when they pop into my head, I just blurt them out. Most of my friends know what I'm talking about, but the others just think I'm weird. I think they already thought that, actually, but I just enhanced it. Then there was the day where I tried to explain what Vala and Maia were in History class when my History teacher began to whine about the movies...I kind of launched into a summarized Valaquenta.

[Araréiel]

Do we have any resident "experts" (sorry, Tolkien is the only true expert, and possibly his son) or semi-"experts" on Tolkien's languages? I've been working on learning, and have a few questions.

I've had the opposite happen. I have not met many annoying "experts." Okay, only one, and I couldn't stand him at all. He was a jerk aside from LotR. Other than him, there've only been extremely annoying newbies who don't even care to learn, yet like to act like know-it-alls to impress people.

Are there any of those "experts" in California? Or others who want to learn more?

[Boromir88]

I really don't think anyone is an "expert" at Tolkien, maybe not even Tolkien himself. No matter what you know there is always much more you can learn. There are ones who are more knowledgeable on Tolkien then others and may seem like "experts" but truth is there is always more to learn when you talk about something as broad as Tolkien. I have run into my fair share of annoying amateurs and annoying "experts." I only get cocky to the ones who lie and say they have read the books when they really haven't, yes, I will correct people but as the knight of gondor posted, not really in an "arrogant" way. For there have been many times when I myself have been wrong about something.

The most recent one would be one that didn't involve me but a guy came in arguing he knew everything on Tolkien, and gloin is to be pronounced "Glowen" and not "gloyn," this would be a case of someone who is so pig headed he can't see that he's wrong. Which is the case for everyone in my opinion, there will be some point when even the most knowledgeable Tolkieniest will be wrong, sometimes less then others but so far I have not met a Tolkien fan that has misinterpretted atleast ONE point. And in many cases there really is no right or wrong for its someone's opinion.

[Mariska Greenleaf]

I really don't think anyone is an "expert" at Tolkien, maybe not even Tolkien himself. No matter what you know there is always much more you can learn.

I take it that you are talking about the interpretations, not the knowledge. One can know all the facts about Tolkien's life and Tolkien's books, and that would make that person a so called "expert", but about the meaning of the stories and characters there's a lot of speculation, and certain things are unknown, and will stay that way, just because Tolkien left them to our imagination.
But I think that you need some background information to be able to have a decent discussion about Tolkien's work.

About annoying experts, I haven't met any just yet. To tell you the truth, I've almost never met anyone who is even a bit into Tolkien... So tell me, is your environment crowded with Tolkien amateurs, experts and haters? Because, except for this forum, I never have the chance to talk about Tolkien in the first place. So I guess that when I would meet an annoying expert, I would kinda like it...

[Araréiel]

So tell me, is your environment crowded with Tolkien amateurs, experts and haters?

Presently those around me are mostly indifferent. Almost all I've ever met were annoying amateurs who thought they knew it all. My ex knew a bit, but i surpassed him. He was just a regular fan, nothing special. Sadly, the best conversation I've had with a person aside from typing (as in on the phone or in person) was when I called to re-register my domain name (LordoftheRingsOnline.net) when I was having problems doing so a few days ago. He recognized my user name as being from LotR. We chatted for a good hour.

I use "expert" in quotes to refer to the fact that that person won't ever be a true expert. The only expert (minus quotes) would be Tolkien, yet even he didn't have all the answers. He crafted a world so real I am sure he'd have to sit down to figure out the answers to certain questions.

Oh, to have his level of genius.

[Aredhel]

Yes, yes, I've continually had run-ins with... ir....shall we say: a published writer.
He's doing tours, and regularly posts everywhere, I'm sure even here, too. I like his work very much, but when he grabs onto a thread and maims it unmercilessly with facts that he has been looking up for years (professionally!), I tend to get a bit flustered. Sometimes he's amazing; other times, he's just plain boring.
Oh, well. I'm sure jealousy enters into this. It's just a shame I didn't do what he's doing, years ago. I could have been famous. BAH!

[Meela]

I admit I do get annoyed with experts, but then that would be hypocritical, considering I have a jolly fun time correcting everyone else.
I have a friend who isn't the greatest fan of Lotr, but does know the basics. Or at least she tries to understand. We had a lot of fun one afternoon, me correcting her and her laughing at herself in a good way.

I don't mind experts, since I can learn a lot from them. I like being corrected if I make a wrong point, and I don't mind swapping facts, but some people act as though they are looking down at you for not being as clever. That's just tedious.

[Boromir88]

I don't mind experts, since I can learn a lot from them. I like being corrected if I make a wrong point

Meela, true, if I make a wrong point I don't mind being corrected. The "annoying experts" for me are ones who think all of their views are right, no one else can be right, or basically the ones whos pompous ignorance gets in the way.

[Lalwendë]

I think one of the many wonderful things about Tolkien is that you can never know everything - there's always something new to learn. So there are no total experts! But I know what you mean about people who do think they know everything. Some people think I know a lot, e.g. I'm always the one called upon to settle arguments, but I know I'm no expert! Half the time I have to say "I'll have to look that up when I get home, because I don't know".

I pronounce a few of the names incorrectly, but that's because when I first read the book as a kid, I had my own idea of how the names would sound, and even though since then I know better, those original impressions stay in my mind.

As for being annoying, one day there had been a four way conversation (shouted across the office) that had lasted all morning at work, close on the heels of several weeks' worth of assorted other Tolkien conversations. At the end of this one morning a colleague in the corner stood up and shouted "No! I've had enough of this!" and stomped out.

[Laitoste]

I'm so jealous of anyone who has known an annoying expert! I don't even know a regular expert! (aside from around the Downs, and none of those are annoying!) I most certainly am not an expert (in anything), although I know more about The Lord of the Rings than anyone else in my town. (or I don't know that they know more than me)

[The Only Real Estel]

I agree with Meela that experts are usually perfectly fine, & even when they're not I can still learn something from them. The only thing that annoys me a bit is when someone goes into a short summary of the life of a character just to answer a question that would've taken one sentence to say. Or, worse yet, all they ever wanted to do was agree but decided to expound upon every tidbit of the character's character. It comes across as: I'm throwing a bunch of facts out here (99% of them everyone already knew) to show that I know quite a bit about this character; though I'm sure they don't mean to come across that way. It mostly happens with newbies, they think that most of the people here know little about Tolkien so they decide to start of with a good post full of education for those that know far less than them ( I'll admit my first few posts on this site followed that line ).

Cheers,
Estel

[Lalwendë]

Heh, I'm sure I've done exactly that kind of thing many a time! I was once asked why Elrond was sometimes referred to as 'half-elven' and I was still there half an hour later while this poor guy was sitting nodding and going 'um, yeah'. If he'd had some matchsticks I'm sure he'd have used them to prop his eyelids open. I put it down to enthusiasm, that's all!

[The Only Real Estel]

I put it down to enthusiasm, that's all!

Well as long as you're still on the topic of Elrond & why he's called half-elven (giving yourself a little room to stray), it's when you start talking about how Elrond's mother-in-law was Galadriel, who married Celeborn, etc. that it gets pointless .



http://www.flashplayer.com/music/haveuforgotten.html
click on view title button & listen to the lyrics while you watch)

[Knight of Gondor]

Folks, you know you do sound ever complaining . Some people annoy you as they are amateurs, the rest are hated for being experts. What are you after, than? The standard, the image of ideal Tolkien fan I crave for!

Not so, HerenIstarion! We’re talking about people of both breeds that are annoying in either their amateurity or their “expertise”. I don’t think anyone is annoyed (nor would be justified in being so!) because anyone is either learned in Tolkien, or ignorant of his works.

Middle aged, well-of, happily married and well employed, parent of two blondish blue-eyed infants and, of course, psychologically balanced?

Um...probably not exactly, since I’m young, poor, single, unemployed (I’m still a student), I don’t have any kids, and I’m sure one or two people could contest the claim of being psychologically balanced. (Any guy that spends three hours hitting the redial button in the hopes of getting on The Sean Hannity Show might be semi-insane...but I don’t know, because it worked!)

Don't you just hate those people who back up their assertions with quotes from Tolkien's Letters and thereby kill a thread?

Provided that letters confirm the assertion, can't see what goes wrong there

I suppose so, but I can understand where, in most cases, a definitive answer from Tolkien’s own hand kills the reason for discussion because it answers the point of debate completely. (Usually)

Can we say "Canonicity?"

Yes, but we can’t define it.

“Experts are never annoying, only interesting."

That’s just because no person who thought himself an expert came up and annoyed Mr. Tolkien.

I'm guilty of every variety of correcting people's pronuncations. Even though I'm by no means as much of an expert as, say...well, 99.95% of the experts on the Forum...I always correct how people say things - especially when they try to pronounce the Elvish names for things. Although my friends are just like me, so we can be annoying in pretentious as a unit at least.

You know, along the lines of defining the “typical” Tolkien fan, I would think that the “typical” fan would WANT to learn the different pronunciations, the correct ones, provided that they are not given in a manner that boarders on arrogance. And we should all keep in mind that we were all once bumbling amateurs too. I used to think it was “Sar-ROO-man”, not “SAR-uh-man.” And Galadriel’s husband was “Sel-a-born” before learning that C’s are hard in Elvish. (I got corrected on that Sar-roo-man pronunciation by my parents, who knew nothing of Tolkien, but knew that sar-roo-man, however the alternate spelling is, was actually a medical term for ear wax! :P)

The one that randomly pulls out The Sil references to go into everyday life without explaining them to the other people who haven't read The Silmarillion. Do any of you find yourself doing that?

Um...no.

[Knight of Gondor]

I have not met many annoying "experts." Okay, only one

Welcome, Araréiel! And yes, even one annoying expert counts.

and I couldn't stand him at all.

Well if he was nice, then he wouldn’t belong on the thread about annoying experts, now would he?

there've only been extremely annoying newbies who don't even care to learn, yet like to act like know-it-alls to impress people.

In which case you should, as you probably already have, visit the Annoying Amateurs thread. If nothing else, it will teach you how to type amateur without making a spelling mistake!

Are there any of those "experts" in California? Or others who want to learn more?

What you have to do is educate yourself to the best of your ability. And remember that when I say “expert”, we all mean as best as a person can hope to become as a civilian Tolkien fan. Yes, technically, no one but Tolkien and his son can be experts.

I really don't think anyone is an "expert" at Tolkien, maybe not even Tolkien himself.

I would think that Tolkien would know the most about his works...! But as I said above, when I say expert, I only mean as far or high as the average person can go in “expert” status.

[Knight of Gondor]

No matter what you know there is always much more you can learn.

Do I detect a Ken Ham quote? “There’s always an infinite amount more to know, which means no matter how much you know there’s always more to know, which means no matter how much you know, you don’t know how much more there is to know anyway, which means no matter how much you do know or don’t know, in relation to what it is, whatever that is, so let’s face it, you just don’t know much at all.”

I will correct people but as the knight of gondor posted, not really in an "arrogant" way.

Yes sir, by setting the proper example, I’m a knight a fellow can look up to!

To tell you the truth, I've almost never met anyone who is even a bit into Tolkien... So tell me, is your environment crowded with Tolkien amateurs, experts and haters?

I don’t meet up with too many Tolkien fans either, Mariska Greenleaf, but it’s a matter of my environment. You have to know where to hang out. I’ve attended a Lord of the Rings church study group, and a lecture or two at the local college, but sometimes, the experts or amateurs are on THIS board!

So I guess that when I would meet an annoying expert, I would kinda like it...

You don’t want him or her to be annoying! We’re not complaining about self-styled experts or amateurs themselves, we’re talking about how they act arrogant, either way.

[Knight of Gondor]

Yes, yes, I've continually had run-ins with... ir....shall we say: a published writer.
He's doing tours, and regularly posts everywhere, I'm sure even here, too. I like his work very much, but when he grabs onto a thread and maims it unmercilessly with facts that he has been looking up for years (professionally!), I tend to get a bit flustered. Sometimes he's amazing; other times, he's just plain boring.
Oh, well. I'm sure jealousy enters into this. It's just a shame I didn't do what he's doing, years ago. I could have been famous. BAH!

Are you sure this isn’t annoying to you just because he knows so much? Because just knowing a lot doesn’t make them annoying; they have to act annoying too. And also, you neglected to mention WHO THIS PERSON IS!

I don't mind experts, since I can learn a lot from them

Isn’t this the same Meela that used to be so in like with Denethor? Looks like we’ve moved on to Éomer, eh?

[Diamond18]

Middle aged, well-of, happily married and well employed, parent of two blondish blue-eyed infants and, of course, psychologically balanced?

Um...probably not exactly, since I’m young, poor, single, unemployed (I’m still a student), I don’t have any kids, and I’m sure one or two people could contest the claim of being psychologically balanced.

KoG, I believe that H-I was describing SPM as the example of an ITF. (Er, that is, Ideal Tolkien Fan).

[The Saucepan Man]

KoG, I believe that H-I was describing SPM as the example of an ITF. (Er, that is, Ideal Tolkien Fan).

Not sure that I'm all that happy at being cited as some sort of "benchmark" on a thread dealing with annoying experts. I can be annoying, but rarely (I hope) in the contect of discussing Tolkien, and I am most certainly no expert.

That aside, I would respectfully decline the honour of "ITF". Quite apart from anything else, I firmly believe that there is in fact no such thing as an ideal Tolkien fan.

As for being middle-aged, well gee thanks! I like to think that I have a few more years yet (although, alas, all too few).

[ninlaith]

What I highly dislike is insistant incorrect experts. I've challenged many of my friends to suggestions that they have made about certain parts of the books and even though they're wrong, and you know it, they will argue with you until the end of time. And it is so frustrating. Also when it comes to quoting a certain line in one of the movies and they keep getting it wrong and you try to correct them and they say they're right. BLAH!!!

[Gil-Galad]

If you like to read other threads like this, check out my Annoying Amatuer thread...page 3 i think is my award-winning post...all i know its the first post on one of its pages

[ohtatyaro]

this was first posted in annoying unbelievers topic, but I meant it to be put here at first, and put it there by mistake. It may apply there too, but here it is:



Here (by here I mean the real place I used to live, not the place on the internet), there is a place in one of the parks they call 'foul place'. But I hear it was fair once - when I was some three or four years old, it was called Eglador, and teenagers gathered there to have fun - read poetry (Tolkien's or theirs) and discuss Tolkien. Now it is full of drunken dudes who say they are elfs. As their idea of the proper behaviour for elfs is to find some 'orcs' and beat him or her up, it is no pleasant place to go. I can't say 'anymore', I don't remember when it was.

Those dudes is what I call 'annoying experts'. Dude with the club is annoying, and when he pretends to know what he is about - I'm an elf, you're an orc, come here, you!- that makes them 'experts'.

Interesting. I'll have 2 agree w/ u on this. I probably qualify as an "Annoying Amateur", but I also find Experts quite-irritating.

[Encaitare]

I don't think I know any truly annoying experts; rather, I admire the "experts" for their knowledge and dedication. For example, there is this man who runs the Ardalambion site (http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/) named Helge Kåre Fauskanger (had to copy and paste that -- couldn't spell it!) and he's an absolute genius. He's got all these analyses of all the languages and Quenya courses and I am just amazed by it.

I was reading until I heard someone nearby mention Frodo or something and I glanced over and started listening.

The same thing happened to my friend and I at lunch one day! We were having a normal conversation (or what is considered normal to us) and suddenly we heard someone across the room say "Frodo" and we just both stopped immediately and began to eavesdrop. Then we realized how pathetic we were and stopped... but only after the people had changed the subject!

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Laitoste

I'm so jealous of anyone who has known an annoying expert! I don't even know a regular expert! (aside from around the Downs, and none of those are annoying!) I most certainly am not an expert (in anything), although I know more about The Lord of the Rings than anyone else in my town. (or I don't know that they know more than me)

I feel the same way However Sometimes the experts on this site do annoy me not intentionally of course and I understand they are trying to be nice correcting me when I'm wrong it just bugs me to be corrected