could any of the kingdoms at middle earth attack the southern continents?

[tom the eldest]

Now,im somebody get mad at me,im sorry but i just love asking this kind of question.

Now,we know that numenorean do colonise some places there,but no further mention of it.so if the numenorean are able to colonise the lanf,could the kingdoms of middle earth do so?i mean if there southern kingdom are declaring an assault on middle earth,could the the middle earth kingdom counter-attack?(in this scenario there is NO sauron,no nazgul,just a palin old mordor with lots of orcs in it)

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Now,im somebody get mad at me,im sorry but i just love asking this kind of question.

Now,we know that numenorean do colonise some places there,but no further mention of it.so if the numenorean are able to colonise the lanf,could the kingdoms of middle earth do so?i mean if there southern kingdom are declaring an assault on middle earth,could the the middle earth kingdom counter-attack?(in this scenario there is NO sauron,no nazgul,just a palin old mordor with lots of orcs in it)

Once Sauron was removed from Middle Earth, there's no reason, at all, to presuppose that the warring stopped. I think FA meant a whole lotta humans, as the other races faded. But we also know that humans were most able to be influenced by Morgoth from the Void. In fact, there is reference in materials about The Elessar that points out that Morgoth had kind of affected the sun, and that was what The Three were able to ward against.

So, in terms of 'reason' humans war with each other, Tolkien was presupposing that the fractures in the human cultural mind, and the causes of war were due to Morgoth's eternal presence amongst 'us'. A bit like what people say about 'The Devil'.

As for the extent and range of Numenorean colonisation--I have no idea. As far south as Harad, was where the mythology ceases. But, we don't know anything about the far east. And, for example, what became of the Blue Wizards, except that the fell into sorcery (where that variant of lore was given over to 'evil magic')....

[tom the eldest]

This is about the probability of middle-earth's forces to attack the dark lands.i mean,the logistics,the amount of troops,the distance,etc.the south continent do have mumakil,and the kingdom there probably have lots and lots of troops,like most primitive tribes of africa.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

This is about the probability of middle-earth's forces to attack the dark lands.i mean,the logistics,the amount of troops,the distance,etc.the south continent do have mumakil,and the kingdom there probably have lots and lots of troops,like most primitive tribes of africa.

I could ask, "which of Middle-earth's forces? And when?". But in fact I'm not sure it's possible anyway to answer this in the terms you want: "logistics, the amount of troops, the distance, etc". That requires statistical information that doesn't actually exist- sorry.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It is I suppose possible that Gondor at the height of its maritime potency under the "Ship-Kings" would have had the capacity. But the desire?

Note though that even when Royal Gondor was decaying, after the Kinslaying, the Plague and the Wainriders, nonetheless the fleet and army Earnil sent to Arnor's aid, too late, was a still force of size and power almost unimaginable in the North.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It is I suppose possible that Gondor at the height of its maritime potency under the "Ship-Kings" would have had the capacity. But the desire?

Note though that even when Royal Gondor was decaying, after the Kinslaying, the Plague and the Wainriders, nonetheless the fleet and army Earnil sent to Arnor's aid, too late, was a still force of size and power almost unimaginable in the North.

The woods at the southern jungles maybe enough factor for gondor to conquerd the land.afterall,the need wood for everything.fuel,ships,houses,all of those are made of wood.and also,maybe there are precious gems,rich iron veins,and many more,even mithril in the south.that should be enough for th3 gondorians.

[Alfirin]

Don't forget all the Mumakil and such. We know elves sometimes used ivory, I imagine Gondorians would too. Plus since we are talking of jungles, some of those woods would probably be rich hardwoods; fine materials for the construction of ariticles and ornaments for the houses of the rich and noble (they have lebethron on thier home turf, which is sort of like ebony, but there are undoubtedly other rare and costly woods in ME). The Gondorians were already haughty by this period; a love of fine things would no doubt come with it.
Probably there would be a deep demand for spices and incenses as well. Considering themselves the inheritors of "True" Numenorian culture, I imagine the Gondorians would be big into fragrances, so they could pretend they were still living there and smelling fragrant breezes from Nisimaldar. So anything that smelled nice would probably be valuable there bigtime.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Don't forget all the Mumakil and such. We know elves sometimes used ivory, I imagine Gondorians would too. Plus since we are talking of jungles, some of those woods would probably be rich hardwoods; fine materials for the construction of ariticles and ornaments for the houses of the rich and noble (they have lebethron on thier home turf, which is sort of like ebony, but there are undoubtedly other rare and costly woods in ME). The Gondorians were already haughty by this period; a love of fine things would no doubt come with it.
Probably there would be a deep demand for spices and incenses as well. Considering themselves the inheritors of "True" Numenorian culture, I imagine the Gondorians would be big into fragrances, so they could pretend they were still living there and smelling fragrant breezes from Nisimaldar. So anything that smelled nice would probably be valuable there bigtime.

Nah,that would'nt work.news would have spreaded from the haradrim and corsairsnthat numenor has sunk and gondor is now much weaker than numenor.so when they pretend they still in numenor,the southern people will say"how are you still live in numenor when the island has sunk into the sea?".

[Alfirin]

Never discount the power of self-delusion. Obviosly, they DON'T live in Numenor anymore, and can't. And that is why the urge to PRETEND they did would probably be so strong. I suppose I put that wrong; it isn't so much a desire of Gondorians to LIVE in Numenor as much as a desire to MAKE Gondor seem as much LIKE Numenor as they can. Make thier buildings look like the old ones and make their houses SMELL like the old ones. I didn't mean that actual Numenorians had any paricular love of perfumes (they may have, or they may not). I meant that, in Numenor, the air probably smelled perfumed NATURALLY (since they had a whole huge forest of fragrant trees). Having the air smell like that probably became part of what the men of Numenor considered to be PART of being a Numenorian. So when they settled in Gondor, which DIDN'T have those fragrant forests, there would probably be a great demand for items they could use to replicate the smell. Especially since I recall that most of those trees were originally gifts from the Elves of Aman, so the sweet smell was probably equated with them (and thier immortality). All I meant was that Gondorians probably liked things that smelled nice when burned, and since there are probably things like that growing in the jungles of the South, They would be another item that the men of Gondor might want enough to justify trying to conquer. In our world, wars and conquests have been waged over spices, why not in ME?

[tom the eldest]

Well,actually,the question refer to not only go dor,but other as well.now,dwarves cant invade them,we sure,but could the elves,maybe from lindon?or maybe the easterlings?its not just about gondor,its about other nations too.now about gondpr,they maybe able to fool the southrons,but even though the invasion force is massive,they are in unfamiliar territorry.the gondorians,as far as i can tell,NEVER fought in highly densed forest area.ithilien ranger maybe quite useful,but they still dont know the terrain on which they fought in.and the southrons also can use guerilla,and can easily counter the rangers.

[Nerwen]

Okay, so you're talking about the Third Age.

Well, I don't think there were enough Elves or Dwarves around to do any conquering to speak of- Gondor, however, is another matter. At the height of its power it *did* dominate Harad: "[Hyarmendacil's] armies utterly defeated the Men of Harad, and their kings were compelled to acknowledge the overlordship of Gondor." "...the kings of the Harad did homage to Gondor, and their sons lived as hostages in the court of its King." (Appendix A.). However, I don't think there's any hint that Gondor actually set up colonies there.

As for wars between the Haradrim and the Easterlings- well, we can't know anything about that, because the story is concerned with the west of Middle-earth. Again- you're asking for information that isn't there.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

As for wars between the Haradrim and the Easterlings- well, we can't know anything about that, because the story is concerned with the west of Middle-earth. Again- you're asking for information that isn't there.

In the Unfinished Tales chapter Cirion and Eorl it is noted that the Wainriders of the East were "in conflict with the peoples of Khand and their neighbours further south". Whether that was an armed conflict is conjectural, though I think it likely there was combat between Men in the East and South at various times.

As for Gondor or any of the West invading other regions...well, if they could have, they would have. And the same goes for other peoples.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

In the Unfinished Tales chapter Cirion and Eorl it is noted that the Wainriders of the East were "in conflict with the peoples of Khand and their neighbours further south". Whether that was an armed conflict is conjectural, though I think it likely there was combat between Men in the East and South at various times.

I meant we don't have the kind of information that tom the eldest evidently wants.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

This is about the probability of middle-earth's forces to attack the dark lands.i mean,the logistics,the amount of troops,the distance,etc.the south continent do have mumakil,and the kingdom there probably have lots and lots of troops,like most primitive tribes of africa.

Tolkien does not provide enough information. From an historical perspective, lands are conquered so that natural resources can be exploited: whether that means fertile land to feed an expanding population; the availability of rich lodes of precious metal, iron ore or coal; some other tangible and tradeable goods (like rare spices, as someone mentioned); or sometimes the people of a certain region are exploitable goods for the slave trade.

We don't know. It is all conjecture. There is no mention of it. There are only possibilities based on real-world historic data.

[Zigûr]

Are we talking about Harad here? Which, incidentally, is actually still part of "Middle-earth." I assumed originally that this thread was specifically talking about the "Dark Land", which is to say the far Southern continent which appears on one of the 1930s Ambarkanta maps of Arda and might potentially be considered a quasi-Australian or Antarctican landmass. This is to say, a region about which we know literally nothing apart from a shape and two names, "Dark Land" and "South Land", the former of which can easily be confused with Mordor and the latter with Harad.

news would have spreaded from the haradrim and corsairs

Given that "Harad" is just a catch-all name for almost everything South of Gondor, aren't all the inhabitants of the "Southern Continent" technically Haradrim? If we're not talking about the "Dark Land," isn't the "Southern Continent" just Harad?
It's been stated that there was probably conflict between the Easterlings and the Haradrim and we know for a fact that Gondor and Rohan were forced to attack certain parts of Harad (and Rhûn) in the Fourth Age to defeat realms which refused to put aside their ancient enmity with the West even after the fall of Sauron. So if by "Middle-earth" we mean "parts of Middle-earth north of Harad" then yes they did, which must as such prove that yes, they could.

[tom the eldest]

Nah ,harad not included in the middle earth category.
Now,gondor did manage to push the southrons way to their homeland but they never go as far as far harad and the southern continent.if gondor can invade to the south,why they not push their advantage and invade the dark lands?the possibility is,a very large mumakil troops await them in far harad,and the gondorians then too afraid to attack them,knowing the risk.then they retreat.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Nah ,harad not included in the middle earth category.
Now,gondor did manage to push the southrons way to their homeland but they never go as far as far harad and the southern continent.if gondor can invade to the south,why they not push their advantage and invade the dark lands?the possibility is,a very large mumakil troops await them in far harad,and the gondorians then too afraid to attack them,knowing the risk.then they retreat.

I suppose if we were playing with toy soldiers on a game board, that would be the case. Did it occur to you that there was simply nothing worthwhile Gondor wanted further south? They got what they required in Umbar and Near Harad, and nothing more interested them. There is nothing to support what you are saying in the text.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Tolkien does not provide enough information. From an historical perspective, lands are conquered so that natural resources can be exploited: whether that means fertile land to feed an expanding population; the availability of rich lodes of precious metal, iron ore or coal; some other tangible and tradeable goods (like rare spices, as someone mentioned); or sometimes the people of a certain region are exploitable goods for the slave trade.

Or simply because it was the sort of thing kings felt they were expected to do. If they were good at it, they got nifty epithets like "the Great" or "the Conqueror."

(If you don't believe me, look at all the blood and treasure that centuries' worth of Persian and Roman emperors poured into taking Armenia off one another- despite the fact that there's not a damn thing there worth 'exploiting')

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Or simply because it was the sort of thing kings felt they were expected to do. If they were good at it, they got nifty epithets like "the Great" or "the Conqueror."

(If you don't believe me, look at all the blood and treasure that centuries' worth of Persian and Roman emperors poured into taking Armenia off one another- despite the fact that there's not a damn thing there worth 'exploiting')

True, WCH, but Armenia at least has habitable land, whereas a desert is a desert. The only difference in the sand of Near Harad and Far Harad is proximity

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Nah ,harad not included in the middle earth category.

For the purposes of this discussion, or in general? Because Harad is definitely part of Middle-earth in the books.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Did it occur to you that there was simply nothing worthwhile Gondor wanted further south? They got what they required in Umbar and Near Harad, and nothing more interested them. There is nothing to support what you are saying in the text.

Exactly. Given how little we know about Far Harad, it's virtually impossible to speculate. Besides, conquering a little of Near Harad doesn't mean Gondor had the strength to conquer what might have been equivalent to, for all intents and purposes, the whole of Africa, even if they wanted to.
That being said I think the usefulness of elephant cavalry ought not to be overstated as well. As formidable as the Mûmakil were compared to their later descendants, they were not invincible, and elephants make for temperamental and inefficient beasts of war.

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

if gondor can invade to the south,why they not push their advantage and invade the dark lands?

For what purpose? This is treating the situation like a game. It may be fiction, but it also adheres somewhat to the rules of history. Even within the bounds of Tolkien's narrative the Men of Gondor do not appear to have fought wars "for fun" or without reason.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

True, WCH, but Armenia at least has habitable land, whereas a desert is a desert. The only difference in the sand of Near Harad and Far Harad is proximity

Well, I wouldn't say Harad is entirely desert, since plainly it supports a population, one large enough to form and equip large expeditionary armies- and even to support Mumakil. It might rather be equated to North Africa in classical times, which was not yet all desert (and even had wild elephants)

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, I wouldn't say Harad is entirely desert, since plainly it supports a population, one large enough to form and equip large expeditionary armies- and even to support Mumakil. It might rather be equated to North Africa in classical times, which was not yet all desert (and even had wild elephants)

An ironic comparision, considering that exploitation of North Africa's resources by larger foreign empires is often considered a major factor in North Africa BECOMING a desert ( several thousand years of plances like Greece, Ancient Palestine and Rome chopping down whole forests to provide themselves with timber for ships and buildings and collecting masses of the Barbary Lions and Atlas Bears for thier shows)

[Belegorn]

It appears to me that the rise of the power of Númenor did coincide with their imperialism, their quest for domination. I think that perhaps they may have expanded had not they took such a big hit in the downfall of Númenor and the huge fleet that sailed to Aman. That's the loss of a lot of manpower. However, these were basically the Kings Men who were more of the conquering type than with the Faithful which is probably why even when Gondor became like Númenor in Middle-earth when its power waxed they were not pushing south or east, except of course the Ship-kings who took Umbar, and "the kings of Harad did homage to Gondor, and their sons lived as hostages in the court of its King." [Appendix A]

"their own land seemed to them shrunken, and they had no rest or content therein, and they desired now wealth and dominion in Middle-earth... Great harbours and strong towers they made, and there many of them took up their abode; but they appeared now rather as lords and masters and gatherers of tribute than as helpers and teachers." [Sil., Akallabêth, p. 329]

In this quote were are told how before they were helpers, where they instructed Men how to grow and build things and were seen as gods. Although in Unfinished Tales it is said how when they first returned around 2nd Age 600 the Middle Men did see that they shared a kinship with the High Men.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

For what purpose? This is treating the situation like a game.

Erendis spoke of the Men of Númenor:

"Anger they show only when they become aware, suddenly, that there are other wills in the world besides their own. They will be as ruthless as the seawind if anything dare to withstand them... Númenor was to be a rest after war. But if they weary of rest and the plays of peace, soon they will go back to their great play, manslaying and war." [Aldarion and Erendis, Part 2, ch. 2, p. 216-217]

It appears, at least in her view, that the Men of Númenor do hold it in some degree as sport, or a game. There has been mention of warlike lines among the nobles where it concerns the High Men.

[Alfirin]

Such is the way of the mighty of men, There are always those who will wrap themselves in metaphorical Gulon fur, who no matter how much they have, want more forever. And regretabbly, those kind of people often get great power, by getting the similary avaricios to join them. Remember what was supposedly written on Alexander the Great's tomb "Now this mound is big enough for he for whom the whole world was not."

[Nerwen]

But Belegorn and Alfirin, the question being posed is (as far as I can work out, anyway), "why didn't Gondor just go ahead and take over the entire known world?". And possibly more than that, since tom talks about "the southern continent". That, I believe, is the sense in which "treating it like a game" is meant- the OP seems to take it as a given that world domination (more-or-less) is everyone's sole objective, regardless of practicalities.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

That, I believe, is the sense in which "treating it like a game" is meant- the OP seems to take it as a given that world domination (more-or-less) is everyone's sole objective, regardless of practicalities.

Regardless of feasibility, as well. Gondor was quite incapable of launching an offensive against Rhûn or Harad with the aim of empire. As was seen, it was all Gondor could do to defend themselves from attacks by those enemies.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Regardless of feasibility, as well. Gondor was quite incapable of launching an offensive against Rhûn or Harad with the aim of empire. As was seen, it was all Gondor could do to defend themselves from attacks by those enemies.

At the height of its might,gondor could invade the southern continents,but the casualties will be massive,and the invasion could be called of after weeks of months.afterall,they fight in a completely unfamiliar terrain,a massive jungle.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

At the height of its might,gondor could invade the southern continents,but the casualties will be massive,and the invasion could be called of after weeks of months.afterall,they fight in a completely unfamiliar terrain,a massive jungle.

Wait, how do you know it's a "massive jungle"?

[tom the eldest]

Well,looking at the map,its looks like the south continent did have large forest and jungles.and in the two towers,one of the quote says "like monkeys in the jungles of the south".

[tom the eldest]

Oh,ok,looking at the map,the dark lands are separate from middle earth and far harad,so the only way the gondorians are able to invade the land is by sea

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Regardless of feasibility, as well. Gondor was quite incapable of launching an offensive against Rhûn or Harad with the aim of empire. As was seen, it was all Gondor could do to defend themselves from attacks by those enemies.

At what period? At the height of the Kingdom, Gondor in fact did control large chunks of Rhun and Harad.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

At what period? At the height of the Kingdom, Gondor in fact did control large chunks of Rhun and Harad.

Though the sphere of Gondor's influence under King Hyarmendacil did extend to the Sea of Rhûn east and the River Harnen south, that was not an occupation or invasion. Gondor had defeated the Haradrim to the extent that the latter were compelled to pay homage to Gondor, temporarily. I think it's notable that in that case the sons of the kings of Harad lived in Gondor as hostages. That indicates that Gondor lacked the manpower for active occupation of the "conquered" territory.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But Belegorn and Alfirin, the question being posed is (as far as I can work out, anyway), "why didn't Gondor just go ahead and take over the entire known world?". And possibly more than that, since tom talks about "the southern continent".

I think it was probably a question of manpower as I mentioned in my last post. I believe Ar-Pharazôn took offense to Sauron claiming to be King of the World or some such. Númenor lost a lot of men in its downfall, even the King and his wife. The Dúnedain were few after Númenor's destruction even though there were settlements in M-E before its destruction.

"On the western shores in the days of their power the Númenóreans had maintained many forts and havens for the help of their ships in their great voyages; and the chief of these had been at Pelargir at the mouths of the Anduin in the land that was after called Gondor... Now the people of Elendil were not many, for only a few great ships had escaped the Downfall. There were, it is true, many dwellers upon the west-shores who came in part of the blood of Westernesse, being descended from mariners and wardens of forts set there in the Dark Years; yet all told the Dúnedain were only a small people in the midst of lesser Men." [RotK; ll. The Appendix on Languages]

Númenor's armies were indeed powerful, they being a powerful people in themselves probably playing no small part. Ar-Pharazôn's "armada that took haven at Umbar was so great, and the Númenóreans at their height so terrible and resplendent, that Sauron's servants deserted him." [Letter# 156] I think it is very possible they could have expanded into other realms had they remained intact as a people.

I do not think great casualties are often necessary in these battles. Turenne often won without really fighting based on his marches and positioning. Perhaps, as happened with Sauron's forces, their enemies would lay down their arms.

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

so the only way the gondorians are able to invade the land is by sea

If they had to invade by sea this would not be a problem as they were a maritime power and great sailors and builders of boats.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

At the height of its might,gondor could invade the southern continents,but the casualties will be massive,and the invasion could be called of after weeks of months.afterall,they fight in a completely unfamiliar terrain,a massive jungle.

How do you know they could invade? Or if they did, that the casualties would be massive? Or that the invasion would be called off? Or that the terrain was unfamiliar? None of these things are written about. For all we know Gondor had an elite jungle fighting unit.

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

Well,looking at the map,its looks like the south continent did have large forest and jungles.and in the two towers,one of the quote says "like monkeys in the jungles of the south".

According to which map? And do you mean Harad or the actual, separate Southern Continent? Because in the Ambarkanta map, the "Dark Lands" aren't given any detail - forests, mountains or anything else. Their presence in the maps from, say, Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth is pure speculation. I always assumed also that the reference to "apes in the dark forests of the south" was a reference to Harad, not the "Dark Lands."

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

the dark lands are separate from middle earth and far harad

Far Harad, like the rest of Harad, is part of Middle-earth. Sorry to be pedantic about this but I think it needs to be emphasised to minimise confusion.

[tom the eldest]

What i meant is the dark lands not far harad.sorry guys,i got very confused

[Nerwen]

Again, Belegorn, you cannot just assume everyone is desperate to take over the world. Evidence is required- and in the case of Gondor (which is what we're talking about now) this evidence is lacking.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Again, Belegorn, you cannot just assume everyone is desperate to take over the world. Evidence is required- and in the case of Gondor (which is what we're talking about now) this evidence is lacking.

I'm not assuming that this is what they WANTED to do. I'm assuming that had they had the manpower and incentive to do so they COULD. Gondor did expand during the reign of the 4 Ship-kings, but otherwise it seems there was no incentive for them to go about conquering other lands. Again, all I'm saying is that if they had chosen to do so and had not lost most of their people in the Downfall, Gondor could certainly if they chose to do so, take what they will.

The reason I keep bringing up Númenor is because it is the basis of my point that "the Dúnedain were only a small people in the midst of lesser Men" [RotK; ll. The Appendix on Languages] Their numbers were decimated. So even if there were incentive there it would not seem like a good policy. There are only so many colonies a reduced people can set up in conquered lands and add to that how they produce slowly and have few children.

So why did Gondor not take over the world, probably because they did not care to, or maybe they did, but if they did then they were severely lacking in manpower. Gondor was already waning during the reign of the 16th King. What is the motivation of the Kings and Noble High-Men? All I know was that Ar-Pharazôn, known as "the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth" [Sil., Akallabêth, p. 339] had two great motivations, to be King of Men rather than Sauron, and to take immortality.

"as he pondered long in secret, his heart was filled with the desire of power unbounded and the sole dominion of his will. And he determined without counsel of the Valar, or the aid of any wisdom but his own, that the title King of Men he would himself claim, and would compel Sauron to become his vassal and his servant" [p. 333-334]

If Gondor could they would, if they wanted to do so.

[Nerwen]

Okay, Belegorn, I guess I misunderstood you.

[Nerwen]

Now, if, as it seems, these "dark lands" are indeed the mysterious southern continent shown on the Ambarkanta map, I have to doubt whether they would even be over the mental horizon of people in Middle-earth. Isn't this much like asking, "Why didn't the Roman Empire invade Australia"?

[Belegorn]

Probably. I do wonder if their sailors had ever penetrated these boundaries before.