What do you wish Tolkien....

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yes, that too! Cirdan is another enigma!

But still, what I'm most curious about is life withing an Elven community. We know that they got fruits and vegetables from somewhere. I doubt that Rivendell imported them from Dunlend, or something. They must have had farms. Can you imagine a proud elf weeding their vegetable garden? And we know that some Elves (*cough Thranduil's guard *cough) aren't very happy with their Lords. I wonder what Elrond's people think of their role as his servants.

No I don't picture the likes of Glorfindel or Gildor or Erestor raking the dirt, but these are "lords", and there is clearly some kind of social strata in elven culture. I would imagine that after thousands of years of life, they had perfected some of the management of mundane needs into arts that seem like "magic" to the likes of Samwise. They may have found ways to grow and cook things easily and perfectly with minimal effort and awesome results like Lembas. In and around Rivendell could be solaria greenhouses full of plants, and/or in the basement with Noldo-lanterns as hydroponic lights.

[Cirdan]

A number of people want more info on the Istari especially the Blue Wizards, but I want more information on Gandalf and Radagast. The Wizards arrived in TA 1000 but Tolkien was going to set that back into the SA when Sauron forged the One Ring and started war. If the Istari were in Middle-earth this friggin' long, what were they doing?

If Gandalf's main home was in the NW, what role did he play when Angmar was busy trashing Arnor? Recruiting Hobbit bowmen?

If Radagast lived by Mirkwood, what role did he ever play against Dol Guldur (TA 1100 onwards)?

Did Saruman ever live at Minas Tirith and did he offer counsel or aid when the Ulairi re-appeared and sacked Minas Ithil?

[Galin]

There are two 'notes of note' here, written on the same paper (different sides) and possibly as late as 1972.

Tolkien mused about having the 'other two' wizards arrive in the Second Age -- though even this is not a given or his last word on the subject necessarily, because on the back of this (if I recall correctly) I would suggest that Tolkien implies that all five wizards came at the same time rather, generally speaking.

Did JRRT mean all five came in the Second Age? Possibly I guess, but that would become arguably problematic concerning Appendix B for example, not only with respect to wondering why they aren't mentioned in any entries, but where it's stated that the Istari appeared in the Third Age.

I assume(d) the late note implying that they all came at the same general time rather 'rejects' the idea of having the other two show up very much earlier ('rejects' it, if later of course), rather than placing all five wizards in the Second Age -- as if the Third Age is meant, that would agree with what Tolkien had already published concerning the Istari.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Elemmakil

Another thing I should like to have seen more of is the rewrite of Hobbit c. 1960 that was intended to bring it more in line with the published LoTR. As I recall (too lazy to get up and go to the shelf...) he got three (?I think that's right) chapters in but abandoned the project when an unidentified friend, to whom he had shown the draft, commented something to the effect that "it was very good, but not The Hobbit".

While I respect the reason behind the decision, I rather wish he had postponed showing this friend the draft for at least another chapter or two (or three or...) as it was fascinating to watch how he tried to reconcile The Hobbit with his later works. For example, to help explain why Gandalf could not read the inscriptions on the swords found in the Troll cave (since, as is obvious from LoTR, he certainly could), Tolkien rewrote the text slightly to state that the swords were covered in dried orc blood, and would need to be cleaned and repolished to read any inscriptions.

The text cuts off at the end of "Roast Mutton" - had Tolkien gotten to at least the next chapter we might have been rewarded with, for example, a fuller description of Orcrist and Glamdring. While certainly not all would agree, I at least think it would have been very cool.

Indeed it would. I'm particualarly curios about Glamdring's scabbard. In a footnote to the version of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin. it is mentioned that the King's sword (which is presumably Glamdring) has a sheath of "ruel bone" (said to be ivory). Perhaps a more detailed description might have answered the question of whether it was a single peice or a series of plaques, which would have bearing on the species (see my other thread)

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Galin

There are two 'notes of note' here, written on the same paper (different sides) and possibly as late as 1972.

Tolkien mused about having the 'other two' wizards arrive in the Second Age -- though even this is not a given or his last word on the subject necessarily, because on the back of this (if I recall correctly) I would suggest that Tolkien implies that all five wizards came at the same time rather, generally speaking.

Did JRRT mean all five came in the Second Age? Possibly I guess, but that would become arguably problematic concerning Appendix B for example, not only with respect to wondering why they aren't mentioned in any entries, but where it's stated that the Istari appeared in the Third Age.

I assume(d) the late note implying that they all came at the same general time rather 'rejects' the idea of having the other two show up very much earlier ('rejects' it, if later of course), rather than placing all five wizards in the Second Age -- as if the Third Age is meant, that would agree with what Tolkien had already published concerning the Istari.

Their 'official', published arrival circa TA 1000 'coincides' with Sauron's return and his takeover of Amon Lanc. I wonder if the idea of setting their arrival back has to do with Sauron revealing himself as Middle-earth's chief problem in the Second Age and so the Valar implement their countermeasure of the Istari then? If the wizards were to arrive in the Third Age then why did the Valar wait so long to help Middle-earth? In the 2nd age Sauron's armies overran nearly everything except Lindon!

I wonder if JRRT had ever planned to revise any part of the Appendices in a future edition of LotR?


I would also like to ask JRRT whether Gandalf's Elvish name had changed after he became "The White". "Nimrandir" (white wanderer)? "Nimistar" (white wizard)? Did he go back to being good ol' Olorin in Valinor?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

(...) I wonder if the idea of setting their arrival back has to do with Sauron revealing himself as Middle-earth's chief problem in the Second Age and so the Valar implement their countermeasure of the Istari then?

We know the general date anyway (not that you don't): 'The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age' and it was said that the reincarnated Glorfindel probably came to Middle-earth in SA 1600.

But as I say, we have evidence that JRRT mused about sending two wizards in the Second Age, but the other late citation might refer to all five Istari in the Third Age (at least just as well as it might refer to the Second Age, unless I'm missing something there).

If the wizards were to arrive in the Third Age then why did the Valar wait so long to help Middle-earth?

They sent Glorfindel

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Galin

They sent Glorfindel

Sauron damn-near conquered every square mile of Middle-earth and they send over one elven warrior, who, head-to-head, is really no match for the strongest Maiar. If I was Gil-galad I'd be like "Gee thanks! No Vanya hosts to spare? C'mon!"

[Galin]

That was a bit of fun there, but more to the point the Eldar and Edain had enough might to resist Sauron, and did, in both the War of the Elves and Sauron and the Last Alliance. But the Last Alliance was aptly named, as no such great assembly was possible in the Third Age, which also became a time of estrangement.

As for *Laurefindel Ondolindello, I see his return as helping with respect to estel, inspiration, wisdom... more than simpy a measurement of added force.

Powerful though he was!

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Galin

That was a bit of fun there, but more to the point the Eldar and Edain had enough might to resist Sauron, and did, in both the War of the Elves and Sauron and the Last Alliance. But the Last Alliance was aptly named, as no such great assembly was possible in the Third Age, which also became a time of estrangement.

That's believable. The Valar knew that Numenor would rescue ME.

As for *Laurefindel Ondolindello, I see his return as helping with respect to estel, inspiration, wisdom... more than simpy a measurement of added force.

Powerful though he was!

Yeah, I don't know, Glorfindel was more a figure of valor in the FA. Inspiration and wisdom were more Olorin's gifts.

But I suppose I'd like to add this to the list of things that I'd ask him -why was Glorfindel (of all Elves) sent back? Why not Ecthelion, or Finrod, or Fingolfin?

It seems that Tolkien was willing to change info in the Appendices btw (or so it seems). Reading UT last night, Celeborn was going to be changed to a Telerin prince from Aman overwriting the published fact that he was a Sindar from Doriath. Or perhaps JRR was just musing about it with no real intentions at all....

[Galadriel55]

But I suppose I'd like to add this to the list of things that I'd ask him -why was Glorfindel (of all Elves) sent back? Why not Ecthelion, or Finrod, or Fingolfin?

Because Glorfy is awesome!

But definitely a good question, tht deserves a better answer.

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Because Glorfy is awesome!

"Glorfy"? Did you have a secret thing with him, Galadriel? I won't tell Celeborn - honest!

But I think that Finrod really deserved another chance, and he was as wise (and cool) as his sister. He just probably wouldn't want to leave his Vanya gf! ;-)

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

Yeah, I don't know, Glorfindel was more a figure of valor in the FA. Inspiration and wisdom were more Olorin's gifts.

While Tolkien does note that Glorfindel's return must have been for strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, I think his great fame would naturally be an inspiration. And as for wisdom, while not Olorin himself obviously, it was said Glorfindel became a friend and follower of Olorin in Valinor, and...

'for long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (...) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his sacrifice.' JRRT, Glorfindel II

But I suppose I'd like to add this to the list of things that I'd ask him -why was Glorfindel (of all Elves) sent back? Why not Ecthelion, or Finrod, or Fingolfin?

I rather like Tolkien's first 'answer' to this question from Glorfindel I (even though he seems to have superseded it in Glorfindel II): Laurefindel came with Gandalf as a companion (and again, he was a friend and follower of Olorin).

Finrod had good enough reasons to stay in Aman; but more generally, the late essays raise issues that include: Glorfindel being a reluctant rebel in the first place, his sacrifice, the matter of reincarnation in Aman concerning the Exiles... and again generally speaking, we can see Tolkien working out Glorfindel's special circumstances.

Of course externally Tolkien had two Elves named Glorfindel in his legendarium (not necessarily a problem in itself), though only one was known to the general public in any case; and if they were to be considered the same being, then it was a given that Glorfindel of Gondolin had returned to Middle-earth at some point (unless JRRT was willing to change the circumstances of Glorfindel's death, which I doubt).

It seems that Tolkien was willing to change info in the Appendices btw (or so it seems). Reading UT last night, Celeborn was going to be changed to a Telerin prince from Aman overwriting the published fact that he was a Sindar from Doriath. Or perhaps JRR was just musing about it with no real intentions at all....

Tolkien wrote a later essay concerning the word ros for example (which, not unexpectedly, included details beyond specific linguistic concerns)... then he noted that most of it failed because of an already published detail however, the word andros being Sindarin. For another instance, JRRT wrote two variant late descriptions of Celebrimbor after he had published (second edition) that Celebrimbor was a Feanorean -- but did Tolkien remember this when he wrote these descriptions? and if he forgot but remembered later, did he necessarily need to go back and write 'this fails' on either text, since the public was unaware of them?

Christopher Tolkien thinks his father had forgotten about this detail and (in his opinion) JRRT surely would have felt bound to Celebrimbor the Feanorean.

I tend to agree, but this matter is difficult. To state the obvious: we know what already published text Tolkien was willing to change when he changed it for the Second Edition. What was he willing to change later? who knows? for example, why not simply change the appendices and note ros really was a Beorian word rather than Sindarin (as in his late essay)? But, it would appear that his 'most of this fails' should mean that he was not willing to alter this.

I would say that later writing does not necessarily indicate revision to already published text will certainly occur (not that you said otherwise) -- especially if a given matter is possibly not truly being considered by reason of a simple factor: memory.

[Findegil]

About the needed change to take 'ros'as Beorian: This is not a simple matter. The naming of geographical feuters in Middelearth is mostly in Sindarin. And what connection could their be for Cair Andros to Beorian? The essay failed because Cair Andors was well established in the main text and not only in the appendix and because the system of Sindarin names for geo. features was also a fact observable in many many names. Cair Andors as an acception would have needed an explaination which Tolkien did not have at hand.

Why did the Istari Radagast, Saruman and Gandalf arrive so late, if the other two came already in 1600 Second Age:
It seems that from the begining of the plan to send them, they were not supposed to act as powerful group. Therefor they arived alone or as couples. And it could be that after the two blue wizards had arrived the plan was overturned by the rapid developments that occured in Middleearth, by which Saruon was humilated and pushed back. I belive that the Valar did not desire the Numenoreans to take part in the war. Most likely they had some idea what would come out of that involvement.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Cirdan]

Originally Posted by Galin

I would say that later writing does not necessarily indicate revision to already published text will certainly occur (not that you said otherwise) -- especially if a given matter is possibly not truly being considered by reason of a simple factor: memory.

Great stuff, Galin as usual. I'm inclined to believe that Tolkien would have preferred to keep certain facets of his writing consistent and not confuse his readers by changing origins and other major details of history. That he forgot what he had written as he got old is very likely, and/or that whilst in the throes of his imaginative, creative processes he was unrestricted by what came before and just let ideas flow freely since he did not expect every single scribble to be published and scrutinized by the masses!

Originally Posted by Findegil

I belive that the Valar did not desire the Numenoreans to take part in the war. Most likely they had some idea what would come out of that involvement.

??? Are you saying that the Valar did not want Tar-Minastir to send the great force which saved Eriador when Sauron had the mastery there?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Findegil

About the needed change to take 'ros' as Beorian: This is not a simple matter. The naming of geographical feuters in Middelearth is mostly in Sindarin. And what connection could their be for Cair Andros to Beorian? The essay failed because Cair Andors was well established in the main text and not only in the appendix and because the system of Sindarin names for geo. features was also a fact observable in many many names. Cair Andors as an acception would have needed an explaination which Tolkien did not have at hand.

I'm no linguist but a borrowing from Beorian seems simple enough to me -- Tolkien arguably needed to solve his problem in an archaic context, or let's say, well before Cair Andros was named in Sindarin.

The Grey-elven speech of Imladris shows Quenya influence -- for example miruvor from Quenya (by way of Valarin). And in a late text Tolkien mused about making an Elvish word, long held (externally) to be Elvish in derivation, a borrowing from a Mannish tongue -- going from memory I think it was atan actually (possibly from Of Dwarves And Men if I recall correctly), but in any case I'm fairly confident the example exists.


I posted this idea elsewhere, and so far anyway, no bites as to why it would be problematic, or notably so. In other words: -ros in Elros and Cair Andros is 'Sindarin' as much as miruvor and adan are (again, if I remember the example atan correctly) -- and Tolkien has perhaps solved his problem -- ros 'red-brown' and ros 'foam' do not both hail originally from an Eldarin context, despite that they both ended up in the Eldarin tongues.

Then again, I'm not wholly sure there is that great a problem here with the homophones being so different in meaning and yet being Elvish, despite that Tolkien obviously wanted to correct this at one point.


Again maybe this only seems to work to me because -- as is no doubt true -- JRRT knew vastly (and I mean vastly) much more about languages than I do. But I still wonder why this idea would not have solved both the problem that inspired the essay, and the subsequent problem of published andros that made Tolkien discard most of it.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Cirdan

(...) and/or that whilst in the throes of his imaginative, creative processes he was unrestricted by what came before and just let ideas flow freely since he did not expect every single scribble to be published and scrutinized by the masses!

Well put! I should add that to my usual rant on Tolkien-published text being of higher (Valinorean?) stature than other types!

But I may or may not credit you when I steal it though

[Findegil]

About the problem of 'ros': I think that for Tolkien a barrowed stem 'ros' meaning foam, spindrift would not have worked, because it would have created the same unwanted situation of 2 homophone stems with completly unconected meanings. Tolkien had not a problem with the history behind the 2 stems but with the fact of their existence. But in the end he was forced to accept them, because both meanings were already published.

Posted by Cirdan:

??? Are you saying that the Valar did not want Tar-Minastir to send the great force which saved Eriador when Sauron had the mastery there?

Yes, that is exacly what I meaned. Look at the longterm outcome of the involvement of the Numenoreans: 1 Generation later they came not as helper but as masters and conquers to the men of Middle-Earth. They became proud and greedy. And started soon (as the Valar recone time) to rebel against the authority of the Valar. It ended all in the foul idea of Ar-Pharazon, that he could control Sauron and in Saurons subsuquent coruption of almost all Numenoreans.

Most probably the Valar had some beter plan how to counterakt against Sauron in the Second Age. Maybe that did not include a rescue for the lingering Elves in Middle-Earth, that had sined again by making and keeping the Rings of Power and had anyway a way of escape into the west.
But this is all speculation and the recorded history of Middle-Earth went otherwise.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Findegil

About the problem of 'ros': I think that for Tolkien a barrowed stem 'ros' meaning foam, spindrift would not have worked, because it would have created the same unwanted situation of 2 homophone stems with completly unconected meanings. Tolkien had not a problem with the history behind the 2 stems but with the fact of their existence. But in the end he was forced to accept them, because both meanings were already published.

I disagree a bit here. Tolkien wrote: 'It is difficult to accept these two homophonic elements -- of unconnected, indeed unconnectable meanings -- as used in Sindarin, or Sindarized names.' The Problem of Ros

And more importantly perhaps, in Tolkien's solution both -ros 'red brown' and Beorian roth > -ros 'foam' still existed in the ultimate same form and meaning in Maedros and Elros, but now both had not arisen within an Eldarin context. Elros would end with a mannish word for example, Maedros with an Elvish word; and now it would not be difficult to accept the homophones of unconnected meaning in these names.

My suggestion is to stick with that, but add, as noted with atan Sindarin adan (Dúnadan), that the Beorian word ros 'foam' became adopted into Grey-elven, and thus Cair Andros is explained as well. Yes the homophones still end up in Sindarin or Sindarized names -- as they remained in Maedros and Elros within Tolkien's own solution for example -- but why would it be difficult to accept that the meanings are unconnected?


The key is to adequately explain homophones of unconnected meaning in these names, and if Tolkien considers the problem solved by making one Beorian, the same solution remains if Beorian ros also becomes a borrowed word in Sindarin.


Also was -ros meaning 'red brown' published by JRRT? not exactly -ros, but the name Rhosgobel appears I think, though I'm not sure Tolkien himself ever noted its meaning in print, for his readership at large I mean.

Just to confirm: the borrowed Mannish word was atan from a note in Of Dwarves And Men, becoming adan in a Sindarin context of course.

[Mumriken]

I found the relationship between Melkor and the other valas to be most interesting. There is already a lot about Melkor but I'd like more. The only reason the children of hurin is such a great tale is because of him. How he mocks Hurin...and yeah he is just great. Ungoliant also seems really interesting to me.

In lord of the rings I was really facinated with the barrow downs, I really liked that chapter about Tom Bombadil and the barrow downs. I'd like more of that...whatever it is. Personally I'm not so interested in the wars of men and elves. I'm more into exploring characters and the origin's of strange beings.