TTT: "the one purists will rail against most?" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Child of the 7th Age · 08-23-2002, 08:22 AM

Just wanted to let you know to keep an eye out for the September issue of Empire, which is a British movie magazine. It's got a grand photograph of the "white" Gandalf on the cover, plus an article on TTT with pictures.In the interview with PJ, this is the part I found most suggestive: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>....the Two Towers is proving the most demanding of the three films.....As Jackson explains, it's the least dramatically rounded of the three parts requiring him to expand on relationships and narrative lines Tolkien only insinuates. "This is the one we've had to do the most work to," he admits. And by association, the one purists may rail against most?Oh, I think they'll like what we've done,: he smiles. "I think this is better than the first film."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Now, I did like the Fellowship a lot--saw it five times in the theaters--even though I'm one of those "purists" that rails a bit over things like Frodo's very different characterization and what happened to Arwen. But I must admit I'm intrigued, and just a bit apprehensive, about how PJ had to "expand on relationships and narrative lines that Tolkien only insinuates."Anyone have a reaction to this? Can you guess what PJ might mean about those expanded relationships and narrative lines?And, oh yes, whatever he's done or not done, I am counting the days till the film's release!sharon, the 7th age hobbit

mark12_30 · 08-23-2002, 12:02 PM

Hi Sharon, Only foggy runors from TheOneRing.net: Sean Bean went back to do some filming for TTT-- does that mean deam sequences, flashbacks? Wood and Astin went back for more filming-- around Faramir, one wonders? What else would it be, since Shelob is pushed of to RotK?And Mortenson spent quite a bit of time wrestling his horse in the snow, or mud... to expand on the action (I presume for Helms' Deep but that's a guess.)Also, I've noticed lots of wild indignation debating whether Haldir and company (?) will be at Helm's Deep. I think that's on this site somewhere, actually.If you rent the DVD then in the TTT Preview, it shows Galadriel telling Arwen that the quest will take Frodo's life. I think this is somehow working towards Grey Havens stuff.Who knows? --Helen

Dimaldaeon · 08-23-2002, 12:30 PM

I'm pretty sure they're adding Théoden burying his son in a flower covered tomb.

dragongirlG · 08-23-2002, 02:15 PM

I believe there will be more about the past that was never shown from Tolkien, just mentioned. I did read about flashbacks about Boromir, and I think there will be expanded action sequences because the movies must be grand. Haldir being at Helm's Deep -- I've seen pictures, heard rumors about that too; perhaps there will be Elves at Helm's Deep? I didn't see any in the book.

Davin · 08-23-2002, 03:31 PM

I am very excited about Helms Deep. I read that the battle is 45 minutes long...which I cannot wait for. It will be amazing to watch.

Lomelinde · 08-23-2002, 08:33 PM

I think Peter Jackson is going to include Arwen in TTT and expand her role as he did in the previous film to remind the casual moviegoers that she's still there. He's also going to somehow integrate Elrond and Galadriel into it, and yes, for the 800th time, there will be Elves at Helm's Deep. These are just a few of the ways he's going to tinker with the plot in order to develop characters and add some depth to the film, rather than just have a bunch of cool special effects and battle scenes carry it along. I personally can't wait to see what interesting changes he's going to make, but I'm not really a "purist"...

Birdland · 08-24-2002, 02:46 AM

I myself am wondering how he will handle the events with Merry and Pippin after their capture by the orcs, and their escape to Fangorn. We have all seen the part where Aragorn picks up the elven brooch dropped by Pippin, so at least that still stands. After that, the lid seems to have been nailed down on any information regarding these scenes, particularly the appearance of Treebeard. (Go ahead, I challenge you to find one picture of the P.J. Treebeard on the Net.)So will we see the Ent Moot, and the march and siege of Orthanc? What about Saruman's meeting with Gandalf for the last time, and Pippin's exposure to the Palantir? Will the movie end with Pippin being carried on the back of Shadowfax towards Minas Tirith?Regarding Book Two of the Two Towers, my impressions have been that P.J. will be pretty faithful to Frodo and Sam's interactions with Gollum (though what's this I hear about Sam smacking Gollum with a frying pan?) I'm also looking forward to Frodo's meeting with Faramir, and imagine that this is where most of Sean Bean's "flashback" moments will occur. I'm hoping that this is where Frodo will get a chance to shine, and not have his "brave" scenes stolen from him as they were at the Fords and in Moria. And please Mr. Director, let Sam see his Oliphaunt! I suppose it will all be cut off at the point where Frodo and Sam enter the tunnel to Shelob's lair, with a suitable scary "hint" shot of glowing, spider eyes.As for Helm's Deep and Rohan: let Peter Jackson have his fun. A battle is a battle is a battle, and the details matter little, so long as we get Aragorn to the Pelennor Fields on time! They can bring all the elves into it they want. Heck, they can even bring Bombadil to Helm's Deep and it won't bother me. And I kinda think the death of Haldir will be a nice touch. I also like the idea that P.J. will be showing more of the "common folk" of Middle Earth at Helm's Deep, and will give a take on their reactions to these events. There wasn't really enough of that in the book. I do hope Merry's meeting with Theoden and Eowyn will not be glossed over too much. I always liked the relationship between the hobbit and the King, and would like to see the plot to get Merry to Minas Tirith left intact. I fear that Aragorn's ride through the Paths of the Dead is a goner, though.

Bêthberry · 08-26-2002, 10:54 AM

There was much, for me, that was quite well-done in the first movie, although the omisison of Tom and Goldberry and of the Barrow-Downs suggests to me that the entire movie trilogy will have a diminished focus--as, perhaps, must be given the nature of the different media.What I wonder about is the change between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White. The White has a slightly different personality (I might go so far as to say is less subtle) and so far the pictures I've seen of Gandalf the White from the movie fill me with foreboding. The poses look too much like stilted action-figure positions. And the hair and beard don't suit the actor. Just MHO.Bethberry

Lush · 08-26-2002, 04:05 PM

You know what? I just can't wait to be surprised. PJ can be a little unpredictable at times, and sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't, but the surprise element is part of what makes up my excitement for the coming film. If the purists are already polishing their sharp little tongues for the backlash, that's fine with me. Who knows? Maybe I'll walk away disappointed myself. But right now, I am looking forward to recognizing Tolkien's magic, along with PJ's own touches.

VanimaEdhel · 08-26-2002, 04:59 PM

I think that we should all wait and see the actual movie! Just hearing people talk about what they think our reaction will be doesn't let us know what we actually will think of it.While yes, it's okay to talk about it, don't let this thread sway any of you that plan on seeing the movie because you think that, by our talk, it won't be like the book. We may all be surprised. Even if it isn't like the book, if it captures the essence that Tolkien looked for, then we may enjoy it just as much! Or: it just may be a great movie. We should go into it looking more for the movie aspect than how much it follows the book exactly.*Sigh* Okay: now that I've bored you all to death...have fun at the movies!

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 08-26-2002, 09:18 PM

Well, here's what I think the movie needs to have: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Gollum: we need to feel both pity for him, and disgust. So we need to know his history, and see what he was before the ring corrupted him utterly. We need to know he was a hobbit himself. This is going to be PJ's toughest task. If people cheer when Gollum plummets into the Cracks of Doom, he will have failed. And if Gollum isn't handled rightly, that is exactly what is going to happen. <LI>Faramir/Denethor: In order to understand the dynamic between Faramir and his father, and much of the cause of the madness of Denethor, we have to see the three together. The favorite elder son, the scholarly younger scorned by his father. Boromir as a character exists in the other two books, continuing to shape the lives of his family after and by his death. <LI>Frodo's apparent doom: in order for his rescue to seem miraculous, the audience has to be convinced he is going to die. This convincing is done by Frodo himself in the books, but he'll sound like a whiner if we don't have some solid evidence to back him up - Galadriel, people who know what he's facing. In the books, he's portrayed as having uncommon intuition, but that has not come across in Elijah's performance, Elijah's just too young (not as a seasoned actor, but simply in looks) for that to be convincing. <LI>Theoden and Wormtongue: we need some history lessons about Wormtongue's trusted relationship in Theoden's house. I mean, who would trust a guy called 'Wormtongue'? <LI>Eowyn: we need something to create a relationship between Aragorn and Eowyn, some basis other just 'gazing upon him' as happens in the Books. That's not gonna fly in a movie. We need to understand her motivations for going to war, and have some basis for her skill with a sword (or she's gonna look as ridiculous as Arwen - don't get me started on Arwen). <LI>A little more development to explain Merry's oath of fealty to Theoden would be nice. Simply because I would enjoy it, too. </UL>I'm wondering how they're going to do the Palantir and Pippin. Hm, are they still going to have Pippin steal it, or is he going to rescue it from that puddle and gaze on it right there? I figure we won't have any riding time to kill from Orthanc to Edoras.Any director who would cut the dramatic potential of the Paths of the Dead, one of Tolkien's truly unique moments, is a fool. And I don't think PJ is a fool.[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

keverzwijn · 08-27-2002, 12:17 PM

I think they got a problem with wormtongue, it can't be a surprise to the viewers that he is evil. If you look at the pictures, he just looks EVIL. And then the name ofcourse. I'm a little worried about the end too. There are subtle hints in TTT about Shelob. Exclude those hints from TTT and we will forget them by the time of ROtK. This situation would be perfect if you saw the three movies at once, cause you would notice them then. Exclude the hints in TTT and Shelob arrival in ROtK will be weird, like uh where is that coming from. I have total confidence that Peter Jackson will make it work. He and his movies rule, P.J. is a bloody genius.

08-23-2002, 08:22 AM	#1
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,135	TTT: "the one purists will rail against most?" Just wanted to let you know to keep an eye out for the September issue of Empire, which is a British movie magazine. It's got a grand photograph of the "white" Gandalf on the cover, plus an article on TTT with pictures.<P>In the interview with PJ, this is the part I found most suggestive:<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>....the Two Towers is proving the most demanding of the three films.....As Jackson explains, it's the least dramatically rounded of the three parts requiring him to expand on relationships and narrative lines Tolkien only insinuates. "This is the one we've had to do the most work to," he admits. <P> And by association, the one purists may rail against most?<P>Oh, I think they'll like what we've done,: he smiles. "I think this is better than the first film."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now, I did like the Fellowship a lot--saw it five times in the theaters--even though I'm one of those "purists" that rails a bit over things like Frodo's very different characterization and what happened to Arwen. But I must admit I'm intrigued, and <BR>just a bit apprehensive, about how PJ had to "expand on relationships and narrative lines that Tolkien only insinuates."<P>Anyone have a reaction to this? Can you guess what PJ might mean about those expanded relationships and narrative lines?<P>And, oh yes, whatever he's done or not done, I am counting the days till the film's release!<P>sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

08-23-2002, 12:02 PM	#2
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,407	Hi Sharon, <P>Only foggy runors from TheOneRing.net: <P>Sean Bean went back to do some filming for TTT-- does that mean deam sequences, flashbacks? <P>Wood and Astin went back for more filming-- around Faramir, one wonders? What else would it be, since Shelob is pushed of to RotK?<P>And Mortenson spent quite a bit of time wrestling his horse in the snow, or mud... to expand on the action (I presume for Helms' Deep but that's a guess.)<P>Also, I've noticed lots of wild indignation debating whether Haldir and company (?) will be at Helm's Deep. I think that's on this site somewhere, actually.<P>If you rent the DVD then in the TTT Preview, it shows Galadriel telling Arwen that the quest will take Frodo's life. I think this is somehow working towards Grey Havens stuff.<P>Who knows? --Helen __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

08-23-2002, 12:30 PM	#3
Dimaldaeon Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ireland & damn proud of it. Posts: 125	I'm pretty sure they're adding Théoden burying his son in a flower covered tomb. __________________ Dear Saddam, Do not disunderestimate me.Yours G.W.Bush You're not drunk if you can still hold onto a blade of grass to stop yourself from falling off the face of the Earth

08-23-2002, 03:31 PM	#5
Davin Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 166	I am very excited about Helms Deep. I read that the battle is 45 minutes long...which I cannot wait for. It will be amazing to watch. __________________ So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. »»The Telmena««

08-23-2002, 08:33 PM	#6
Lomelinde Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ha! Wouldn't you like to know? Posts: 80	I think Peter Jackson is going to include Arwen in TTT and expand her role as he did in the previous film to remind the casual moviegoers that she's still there. He's also going to somehow integrate Elrond and Galadriel into it, and yes, for the 800th time, there will be Elves at Helm's Deep. These are just a few of the ways he's going to tinker with the plot in order to develop characters and add some depth to the film, rather than just have a bunch of cool special effects and battle scenes carry it along. <P>I personally can't wait to see what interesting changes he's going to make, but I'm not really a "purist"... __________________ The Dwarf breathes so loud I could've shot him in the dark, drunk, blindfolded and hanging upside down from a tree.

08-23-2002, 02:15 PM	#4
dragongirlG Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Stock, the Shire Posts: 151	I believe there will be more about the past that was never shown from Tolkien, just mentioned. I did read about flashbacks about Boromir, and I think there will be expanded action sequences because the movies must be grand. Haldir being at Helm's Deep -- I've seen pictures, heard rumors about that too; perhaps there will be Elves at Helm's Deep? I didn't see any in the book.

08-24-2002, 02:46 AM	#7
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	I myself am wondering how he will handle the events with Merry and Pippin after their capture by the orcs, and their escape to Fangorn. We have all seen the part where Aragorn picks up the elven brooch dropped by Pippin, so at least that still stands. After that, the lid seems to have been nailed down on any information regarding these scenes, particularly the appearance of Treebeard. (Go ahead, I challenge you to find one picture of the P.J. Treebeard on the Net.)<P>So will we see the Ent Moot, and the march and siege of Orthanc? What about Saruman's meeting with Gandalf for the last time, and Pippin's exposure to the Palantir? Will the movie end with Pippin being carried on the back of Shadowfax towards Minas Tirith?<P>Regarding Book Two of the Two Towers, my impressions have been that P.J. will be pretty faithful to Frodo and Sam's interactions with Gollum (though what's this I hear about Sam smacking Gollum with a frying pan?) I'm also looking forward to Frodo's meeting with Faramir, and imagine that this is where most of Sean Bean's "flashback" moments will occur. I'm hoping that this is where Frodo will get a chance to shine, and not have his "brave" scenes stolen from him as they were at the Fords and in Moria. And please Mr. Director, let Sam see his Oliphaunt! <P>I suppose it will all be cut off at the point where Frodo and Sam enter the tunnel to Shelob's lair, with a suitable scary "hint" shot of glowing, spider eyes.<P>As for Helm's Deep and Rohan: let Peter Jackson have his fun. A battle is a battle is a battle, and the details matter little, so long as we get Aragorn to the Pelennor Fields on time! They can bring all the elves into it they want. Heck, they can even bring Bombadil to Helm's Deep and it won't bother me. And I kinda think the death of Haldir will be a nice touch. <P>I also like the idea that P.J. will be showing more of the "common folk" of Middle Earth at Helm's Deep, and will give a take on their reactions to these events. There wasn't really enough of that in the book. <P>I do hope Merry's meeting with Theoden and Eowyn will not be glossed over too much. I always liked the relationship between the hobbit and the King, and would like to see the plot to get Merry to Minas Tirith left intact. I fear that Aragorn's ride through the Paths of the Dead is a goner, though.

08-26-2002, 10:54 AM	#8
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,169	There was much, for me, that was quite well-done in the first movie, although the omisison of Tom and Goldberry and of the Barrow-Downs suggests to me that the entire movie trilogy will have a diminished focus--as, perhaps, must be given the nature of the different media.<P>What I wonder about is the change between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White. The White has a slightly different personality (I might go so far as to say is less subtle) and so far the pictures I've seen of Gandalf the White from the movie fill me with foreboding. The poses look too much like stilted action-figure positions. And the hair and beard don't suit the actor. Just MHO.<P>Bethberry __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

08-26-2002, 04:05 PM	#9
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,803	You know what? I just can't wait to be <I>surprised</I>. PJ can be a little unpredictable at times, and sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't, but the surprise element is part of what makes up my excitement for the coming film. If the purists are already polishing their sharp little tongues for the backlash, that's fine with me. Who knows? Maybe I'll walk away disappointed myself. But right now, I am looking forward to recognizing Tolkien's magic, along with PJ's own touches. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

08-26-2002, 04:59 PM	#10
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,473	I think that we should all wait and see the actual movie! Just hearing people talk about what they <I>think</I> our reaction will be doesn't let us know what we actually <I>will</I> think of it.<P>While yes, it's okay to talk about it, don't let this thread sway any of you that plan on seeing the movie because you think that, by our talk, it won't be like the book. We may all be surprised. Even if it isn't like the book, if it captures the essence that Tolkien looked for, then we may enjoy it just as much! Or: it just may be a great movie. We should go into it looking more for the movie aspect than how much it follows the book exactly.<P>Sigh Okay: now that I've bored you all to death...have fun at the movies! __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

08-26-2002, 09:18 PM	#11
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Well, here's what I think the movie needs to have:<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Gollum: we need to feel both pity for him, and disgust. So we need to know his history, and see what he was before the ring corrupted him utterly. We need to know he was a hobbit himself. This is going to be PJ's toughest task. If people cheer when Gollum plummets into the Cracks of Doom, he will have failed. And if Gollum isn't handled rightly, that is exactly what is going to happen.<BR><LI>Faramir/Denethor: In order to understand the dynamic between Faramir and his father, and much of the cause of the madness of Denethor, we have to see the three together. The favorite elder son, the scholarly younger scorned by his father. Boromir as a character exists in the other two books, continuing to shape the lives of his family after and by his death.<BR><LI>Frodo's apparent doom: in order for his rescue to seem miraculous, the audience has to be convinced he is going to die. This convincing is done by Frodo himself in the books, but he'll sound like a whiner if we don't have some solid evidence to back him up - Galadriel, people who know what he's facing. In the books, he's portrayed as having uncommon intuition, but that has not come across in Elijah's performance, Elijah's just too young (not as a seasoned actor, but simply in looks) for that to be convincing.<BR><LI>Theoden and Wormtongue: we need some history lessons about Wormtongue's trusted relationship in Theoden's house. I mean, who would trust a guy called 'Wormtongue'?<BR><LI>Eowyn: we need something to create a relationship between Aragorn and Eowyn, some basis other just 'gazing upon him' as happens in the Books. That's not gonna fly in a movie. We need to understand her motivations for going to war, and have some basis for her skill with a sword (or she's gonna look as ridiculous as Arwen - don't get me started on Arwen).<BR><LI>A little more development to explain Merry's oath of fealty to Theoden would be nice. Simply because I would enjoy it, too.<BR> </UL><P>I'm wondering how they're going to do the Palantir and Pippin. Hm, are they still going to have Pippin steal it, or is he going to rescue it from that puddle and gaze on it right there? I figure we won't have any riding time to kill from Orthanc to Edoras.<P>Any director who would cut the dramatic potential of the Paths of the Dead, one of Tolkien's truly unique moments, is a fool. And I don't think PJ is a fool.<p>[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ] __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

08-27-2002, 12:17 PM	#12
keverzwijn Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kalmthout, Belgium Posts: 15	I think they got a problem with wormtongue, it can't be a surprise to the viewers that he is evil. If you look at the pictures, he just looks EVIL. And then the name ofcourse.<BR>I'm a little worried about the end too. There are subtle hints in TTT about Shelob. Exclude those hints from TTT and we will forget them by the time of ROtK. This situation would be perfect if you saw the three movies at once, cause you would notice them then. Exclude the hints in TTT and Shelob arrival in ROtK will be weird, like uh where is that coming from. <BR>I have total confidence that Peter Jackson will make it work. He and his movies rule, P.J. is a bloody genius. __________________ "Not all who wander are lost" "Oh, there's my underwear"