Did anyone else notice...

Hey! Did anyone else notice some rather dodgey scenes in the FOTR? (I apologise to anyone who does not wish to read this, go home now ) Well, I didn't notice the first time I went but the second time there were some quite....umm, homoerotic... scenes. For example, when Boromir is wrestling the ring from Frodo he lies on top of him yelling "give it to me, give it to me" and of course, there is the "farewell kiss" from Aragorn to Boromir, and did anyone see the way Sam looks at Frodo in the last scene? I'm sure there were more, and there were definately more in the book, but I can't remember them right now. One asks if the Two Towers will be as, ummm, not suitable for young children? Did anyone slse notice this, or was it just me, and were there any others, and were they deliberate?

[Elvenglass]

I think that homoerotic was the LAST thing on PJ's mind! I really don't think that those were intended...and if you don't mind me saying so I think you are over-analysing things. Most of the dialogue was taken from the book(with a bunch of additions of course) , and Tolkien did not have that in mind when he wrote LotR..also the "look" that sam gave frodo was just a look portraying the deep friendship they have. Also the farewell kiss from Aragorn to Boromir was just a kiss showing respect and brotherhood. These are just my opinions, I guess they're a bit different then yours..oh well. Welcome to the barrow downs anyways.<p>[ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Elvenglass ]

[Hama]

Hi Starbreeze, Welcome to BD<P>Check out the Gay Subtext thread in Novices and Newcomers for exhaustive discussion of this theme! (It's on page 2 of the threads list there now)

[Legolas]

Get your mind out of the gutter and you should have no problems.<P>'Children' would never infer something like that since they have no idea about those kinds of things.

There is a difference in noticing a homoerotic scene and construing a homoerotic scene to exist. Elvenglass is correct: PJ didn't and wouldn't go there. Hama is correct: subject has been exhausted. <P><BR>This whole issue is still a simple case of our society turning old-school brotherly love into gay eroticism. Many in our society cannot imagine two people of the same gender loving each other immensly without attributing some sort of homosexual tendency to the relationship. It's a sad loss. Have you ever gone by the name Eve? J/K<P>Welcome also.

[Lindolirian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Elvenglass:<BR>I think that homoerotic was the LAST thing on PJ's mind! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It was the last think on JRRT's mind too, i'm quite sure!

[Enedhil]

what we seem to be lacking slightly these days is a bit of tactile-ness. Nowt wrong with affection or love, who ever it is between. How many times have people wished they said 'I love you' after someone close dies or something happens to them? How often do people realise how much they *do* love someone or need them,during tense or tragic circumstances, such as frodo and sam's...i guess sometimes we need a good kick up the *** to make us aware of it!! I also think that the kissing forehead thing was quite a common gesture loadsa year ago anyway. Why do folks keep bringing up this 'gay-subtext' thing anyway! Are we really becoming that cynical, critical or narrowminded about relationships? Has love come to mean so little these days? (a little jumbled, and probably strayed a bit far...) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> 'Meanwhile these three remain: faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is love' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Rosa Underhill]

Oh no, not this again... <P>But before I start, welcome Starbreeze!<P>Seeing homosexuality in LotR is just like seeing it between my guide dog and I (she and I are both female). The love between Sam and Frodo is brotherly; Aragorn kissed Boromir as a sign of honor and brotherly love. I can't say everything right that I want to say, so I'm going to stop talking, but I'd like to refer you to this site<A HREF="http://greenbooks.theonering.net" TARGET=_blank>The Green Books</A> Go to Quickbeam's "Out On A Limb..." and look for the article entitled "And In the Closet Bind Them." He has a great explanation for all of this.

[Elendur]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For example, when Boromir is wrestling the ring from Frodo he lies on top of him yelling "give it to me, give it to me"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That made me drop out of my chair laughing! Im sorry. It is wrong, but that is the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

[River Jordan]

yes, it is a rather sad commentary on our society that any expressions of friendship would be seen as some kind of sexual love. In the Bible, King David (remember, the one who killed the giant, Goliath, from your Sunday school days? had a "soul-mate" in a friend named Jonathan. They were the best of friends, and they embraced/hugged and kissed, but there was nothing sexual going on at all. We are living in a society where everyone is so isolated from one another, and touch is so "taboo" that we've forgotten how to "love" one another in a brotherly - that is, non-sexual - manner.<P>Your friendly neighbourhood elf, *River* <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/bc/YMF" TARGET=_blank>http://www.angelfire.com/bc/YMF</A> <BR>(incidentally, I have an article on my web-site entitled "Getting Connected with One Another" that addresses the issue of loving each other in our world today...cheers!

[Bad Fairy]

Im sure (if your are that way inclined) that you could see sexual innuendoes in everything if you tried hard enough. I think it sad that people cannot take things at face value without having to delve deeper and look for some hidden meaning that, more often thatn not, is not there<P>Looking at the way childeren interact is an example. When we are younger we run around with our friends (of the same and opposite sex) holding hands and linking arms and think nothing of it as we have not been introduced to the concept of homosexuality and it just feels a natural thing to do. As we get older its the way society programs us that changes our point of view and makes us look for meanings in things/actions that we might once have taken as natural.<P>Sorry have rambled on and perhaps strayed from the point. But this is just my opinion and the 1st time I have raised it as I stayed clear of the other postings on the subject

[Rosa Underhill]

I love you guys! Seriously, I do. Finally, a group of people who won't blatntly insist, no matter how much proof to the contrary you give them, that everything in Middle-earth has some homoerotic hidden meaning! I don't mind homosexuals as a rule, just their actions. I know several and they are all very nice,(and funny on ocassion).<P>We need more words to describe love in the English language. I'm going to look the Aramaic words for brotherly love, sacrificial love, etc. It'd be much less confusing than just saying "love" to describe so many different kinds.<P>And has anyone seen this picture? It's one of Sean Astin kissing Elijah Wood on the forehead. I thought it was very sweet, (in a brotherly sort of way).

[Rhudladion]

I guess that proves it: Sam and Frodo are definitely homosexuals. Great timing, Rosa!HA!<P>A picture is worth a thousand words!<P>

[River Jordan]

IN the Greek Language, there are actually four different words to describe love, which is more effective than our English "love". Let's see if I can remember them all...<P>Phileo - brotherly love<BR>Eros - sexual love<BR>Agape - the God-kind of love<P>...? Funny, I can't remember the fourth. Oh well, anyway, it's all Greek to me!

[Enkanowen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Starbreeze:<BR><STRONG>Hey! Did anyone else notice some rather dodgey scenes in the FOTR? (I apologise to anyone who does not wish to read this, go home now ) Well, I didn't notice the first time I went but the second time there were some quite....umm, homoerotic... scenes. For example, when Boromir is wrestling the ring from Frodo he lies on top of him yelling "give it to me, give it to me" and of course, there is the "farewell kiss" from Aragorn to Boromir, and did anyone see the way Sam looks at Frodo in the last scene? I'm sure there were more, and there were definately more in the book, but I can't remember them right now. One asks if the Two Towers will be as, ummm, not suitable for young children? Did anyone slse notice this, or was it just me, and were there any others, and were they deliberate? </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>aren't we a little homophobe? <BR>kissing someone goodbye after they die is a very common griefing ritual in many cultures. Aragorn kisses Boromir goodbye as his King, not as a guy who would have wanted to get cozy with him.<BR>Sam and Frodo are best friends, Sam would die for Frodo. What is wrong with that? Then there is Boromir wrestling Frodo... so he wants the ring? It is OUR minds that make something out of nothing. None of the movies are suited for children due to the violent content. The Two Towers is going to be rated R because it is rather violent, not because of imgagined 'homoerotic' subplot. *shakes her head*<BR>some people...<P>

[Enedhil]

Oh dear, what *are* you going to do or say during/about the next two films..? Sam becomes so much more protective to Frodo, lies down by him, holds him while he sleeps, kisses his forehead, cradles him, carries him. Emotions are deeeep things that we, as little mortals placed on this earth by a Higher Power, only have a small grasp of. And when someone like Tolkien comes along and digs deeper and gets a better insight of it all, a lot of people only see one little, thin layer of it. I have a better idea of what i want to say, its saying it that is a problem for me.

[Rosa Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I guess that proves it: Sam and Frodo are definitely homosexuals. Great timing, Rosa!HA!<BR>A picture is worth a thousand words!<P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Aaaahhhhh!!! NOOOOOO!!! *grabs sword, Paperwieght the Unused, off desk and runs toward Rhudladion* PHILEO!! PHILEO!!! (So glad you aren't serious! You're not, right?)<P>Heh, this leads me to ask: my guide dog is female and she is to me what Sam is to Frodo. I kiss her on the head all the time and whenever I'm in the tub she comes to make sure I'm all right. Does this make her and me a lesbian couple?

oh wow, or maybe people are friends, god forbid men in middle earth were a bit more apt to showing a wee bit of emotion

[MenRWeak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Starbreeze:<BR><STRONG>...there is the "farewell kiss" from Aragorn to Boromir...</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Be watchful if ever you go to some areas in Italy or Sicily where men greet their male friends with the "side-to-side cheek kiss". A sure sign that the entire population is gay.<P>Ever watch NFL players slap each other on the butt after making a great play? Or hug and dogpile on top of a player after the touchdown? How about the post-victory lockerroom celebration when the champagne is flowing and a player hugs his mvp buddy and tells the camera and the world, "I love this guy!"<BR>Analysis - NFL players/male athletes are all gay.

[Nazgûl Queen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Enkanowen:<BR><STRONG>The Two Towers is going to be rated R because it is rather violent</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>R? NOOOOO!!!!!!!!! How will I get to see it? It cant be R! Lots of violent movies are only M's. DONT MAKE IT R!!!!!!

[River Jordan]

You said: <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> R? NOOOOO!!!!!!!!! How will I get to see it? It cant be R! Lots of violent movies are only M's. DONT MAKE IT R!!!!!!<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I take it you're too young to get into an R rated movie? . Fear not, there's always video!!

[Elanor]

What are R and M? I take it these are American ratings? What do they mean? <BR>Thanks.

[Elrian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Elanor:<BR><STRONG>What are R and M? I take it these are American ratings? What do they mean? <BR>Thanks.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>R in America is restricted, M is not American, it may be European or Australasian.<P>TTT will be more violent with the major battle scenes like Helms Deep, PJ did say there would be more gore in this one.

[Starbreeze]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Enkanowen:<BR><STRONG><P>aren't we a little homophobe? <P> </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>umm, no actually, I have no problems with homosexuals at all, I was merely pointing out what my friends and I observed whilst watching the film. I know some homesexuals and they are as nice as you could wish.<BR>

[Rosa Underhill]

Yes, homosexuals are nice and extremely funny when they want to be. Although, I had a lesbian dorm mother once and she yelled even when she was just saying hello. <P>And I don't think you 17 and under folk have to worry. I read somewhere that New Line or PJ or someone had a contract that the films would be no worse than PG-13. Hey, JPIII had a disgusting mangled body in it and it was only PG-13. What I'm not looking forward to is the battle at Minas Tirith in RotK; I really, <B>really</B> don't want to see the heads of those poor Gondorians flying over that wall... *shudder*

[Elvenglass]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Paperwieght the Unused <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> What a fantastic name for a sword! I love it! And I don't remember who posted that..oops I'm sorry. Anyways...Even if the movie is rated R..in Canada it'll probably be like 14A..Ha ha! That means you only need to be 14 to get in. Anyways...All these "gay" topics are kind of frustrating...although I suppose we have to let people have their opinions...*grits teeth and counts to ten attempting to suppress anger* Ok I'm fine..have a good day everybody!

[Rosa Underhill]

I'm the one who came up with "Paperweight the Unused"; I think I'm going to put that in one of my stories somewhere... <P>I'm just glad to see people that don't think Sam and Frodo being gay is "cute." I have one word for the image that comes to mind when I hear that: <B>harf</B>! It's just not right! A lesbian even agreed with me that Sam and Frodo are just friends. That's when you know they're not gay for sure...

[Sindalómiel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Elanor:<BR><STRONG>What are R and M? I take it these are American ratings? What do they mean? <BR>Thanks.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In Australia, an M rating means "for Mature audiences", 15+. I.e. it has a bit of sex, violence, bad language or whatever, but not all that much. MA is a rating slightly higher than M. And then R is 18+, for very violent movies, or ones with lots of sex or whatever.

[Gayalondiel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Ever watch NFL players slap each other on the butt after making a great play? Or hug and dogpile on top of a player after the touchdown? How about the post-victory lockerroom celebration when the champagne is flowing and a player hugs his mvp buddy and tells the camera and the world, "I love this guy!"<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Do we have to do this? what is this big taboo about men not touching? If the Fellowship was composed of nine women no-one would bat an eyelid at them hugging and kissing. And yes, male sports teams hug all the time and that's just for getting a ball to a certain point! The men in LOTR are fighting for the freedom of all middle-earth...slightly more intense, i think...<P>Sorry, i don't mean to be lairy

[MenRWeak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gayalondiel:<BR><STRONG><P>Do we have to do this? what is this big taboo about men not touching? If the Fellowship was composed of nine women no-one would bat an eyelid at them hugging and kissing. And yes, male sports teams hug all the time and that's just for getting a ball to a certain point! The men in LOTR are fighting for the freedom of all middle-earth...slightly more intense, i think...<P>Sorry, i don't mean to be lairy </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gayalondiel,<BR>I'm prone to sarcasm, a trait common in England judging from the Brits I've known. Surely a Londoner such as yourself would know this. Then again, perhaps I've read your reply wrong.<P>To clear up my position...I do not feel that any work of Tolkiens has gay undertones. It shows a sad state of affairs nowadays when people quickly misconstrue brotherly love for homosexuality. Perhaps these people lack the life experience to discern this difference?

[Ara'rial]

I don't think JRRT intended anything like that when he wrote his books. It just shows the friendship that bonds all his characters together. Go deeper into the story.

[Gayalondiel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'm prone to sarcasm, a trait common in England judging from the Brits I've known. Surely a Londoner such as yourself would know this. Then again, perhaps I've read your reply wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry mate, i wasn't suggesting you were serious in your post. I picked up on the sarcasm,honest. I just found it a convenient thread to pick up on, my point being the same as yours. My post was worded badly tho. sorry

[Jjudvven]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ara'rial:<BR><STRONG>I don't think JRRT intended anything like that when he wrote his books. It just shows the friendship that bonds all his characters together. Go deeper into the story.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's right! I don't know how anyone can possibly get all these themes out of TLotR!! RR would never put anything like that in his books, and I don't think that PJ would either....<P>

Anyone in favor of letting this thread go by the way-side? Its originator has only written once since its inception, and IMO its quite lacking in interest. If in favor, I guess the appropriate thing to do is to NOT reply.<p>[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Rhudladion ]

[The Barrow-Wight]

Why reply to it at all if you feel it shouldn't be replied to? All you've managed to do is bring it the top of the active threads list.<p>[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ]

In order to suggest silence one must speak, Barrow Wight.

[The Barrow-Wight]

To paraphrase Gandalf, "He who breaks a thing to show it's not worth breaking has left the path of wisdom."

[Jjudvven]

I like that quote!

Here's one for ya Barrow-Wight.<P>"Hsh!", breathed Frodo.

[Starbreeze]

I would write here more often if I was allowed on-line! But I don't mind if you close it down, it seems that you are all pretty exhausted by this subject. I'm sorry but I was new here when I wrote this and I was not aware that other people had put the same things, a hundred times. Forgiven?