What if the books had been written by someone different? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Yavanna228 · 05-11-2003, 08:17 PM

Hi all,
I couldn't seem to find anything relating to this in other threads, so for my first thread(ahhh!) I would like to ask if you all thought that Middle-Earth and its ideas, cultures, languages, and such would still be as powerful and enduring if someone other than Tolkien had written them? I know, this is probably a silly question, but I was wondering what you all thought about it.
Peace

Tigerlily Gamgee · 05-11-2003, 08:36 PM

The languages probably wouldn't even exist if the author wasn't a linguist. No ordinary author would be able to come up with stuff such as that. I'm not saying that other authors are ordinary; there are plenty of extraordinary authors out there, but they are great in their own realm of work. I don't think that any other fantasy writer (that I've read) has such a depth of language as Tolkien did.
Say, for example, if TH White wrote it. It would be much more childish sounding and not as desciptive (at least, not in the same visual way). The story just wouldn't seem as true and well rounded. Things would be skimmed over or left out.

But, I don't really think there is a way to answer this question. If Tolkien hadn't created Middle Earth I don't think it would exist at all.

Yavanna228 · 05-11-2003, 08:49 PM

Thanks Tigerlily...sorry for the un-answerable question...I suppose I just wanted to see what everyone else thought would be different.
Peace

Bill Ferny · 05-11-2003, 09:48 PM

[img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]^^ [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[ May 11, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

Diamond18 · 05-11-2003, 11:26 PM

In all fairness, Bill, that was Mayhemish joke thread. I think Yavanna's looking for a more serious discussion on the topic.

On that note: I think it's impossible to say that anyone else could write "Lord of the Rings", because any novel (or at least, any good one) comes from the unique heart and soul of that particular writer, which cannot be duplicated unless one is just plagiarizing. Besides that, our subconscious creative minds are shaped by our particular lives, and no two people will live the same life. That is not to say Tolkien based it off of his own life, but of course how you grow up, and who you learn from, will affect what you know and how you think.

My fuzzy point being that writers don't just write books, they create them much the way you'd give birth to (or 'beget', if you're a guy) a child, and the book bears the resemblance to its author that a child does to its parent. It'll have the parent's genes and will be molded as the parent raises it.

So LotR would not simply have a different style or a few surface divergences in plot — if the idea was "born" to a different author, it wouldn't even be anything like the "Lord of the Rings" we know, in the first place. Because I doubt, even, that the idea itself could come to another writer, as LotR didn't just pop into Tolkien's mind: it grew from The Hobbit and The Silmarillion, which in turn grew from his love of languages, etc.

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

Yavanna228 · 05-12-2003, 07:25 AM

Monsieur Ferny, pardon my newbie-ishness. In all honesty, I don't know why I didn't come across that thread in my search. Mea culpa.
Diamonds- You are right. Thank you for your intelligent reply [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Perhaps next time I will come up with a better topic. Practice makes perfect, eh? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Thanks again.
Peace

Tigerlily Gamgee · 05-12-2003, 10:15 AM

Diamond18, you have a better way with words than I do. I very much agree with what you've written... it's what I would've written if I could've.
Hey, there you go, an example... I can't write what Diamond18 wrote because I am not her, I am me.. therefore the words come out much differently. Even if people played on what Tolkien has done it would end up being completely different, yet the same.
I've never read any, but I know there are books out there based on Tolkien... I've seen them in the fantasy section... stories of Dark Elves, and Orcs, and such.
Perhaps they would be a good comparison of how other authors just can't step up to Tolkien's plate.

GaladrieloftheOlden · 05-12-2003, 12:05 PM

There is a humor thread on this topic you might want to look at... CLICK ME
It's nothing serious, but I thought I'd give you the link anyhow...

~Menelien

Legolas · 05-12-2003, 12:20 PM

Indeed, Bill. That thread is dedicated to parodies of LoTR as written by specific people. This is an entirely different thread looking for a more serious answer apparently and as such, will continue.

GaladrieloftheOlden · 05-12-2003, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Indeed, Bill.

???

I only meant to link it in case people wanted to see that one, not replacing this one obviously, I know that's a Mayhem thread. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

~Menelien

[ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]

Diamond18 · 05-12-2003, 02:22 PM

Bill's eloquent little angry face post included a link to that thread, as well.

Legolas · 05-13-2003, 11:56 AM

Back to the topic...

Have any of you read The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien?

A few of the letters are in response to readers who questioned Tolkien's decisions in specific instances and made inferences that weren't there. He denies them and offers a massive, full-proof explanation as to why he did what he did. It's quite impressive.

Are there other authors who to that great length in making every tiny decision? With so many twists and turns in the plot, The Lord of the Rings would've been chaotic without that sort of forethought, don't you think?

Yavanna228 · 05-14-2003, 11:43 AM

No, I have never read that book, but it's with a bit of trepidation that I think about what LOTR would be like without the intricate orchestration. I think that the attention to detail makes the stories believable, but there is never so much detail as to make it seem forced.
I'll re-ask one of my questions: Do you think that without Tolkien's genius that ME and its saga could have been so enduring? Even if you think there is an obvious answer, just post what you think! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

Diamond18 · 05-14-2003, 10:50 PM

I've read Tolkien's letters, but I've not read that many biographies or other such information on other authors, to be able to know just how they went about crafting their stories. I know that in Tales from Earthsea, Ursula K. LeGuin put together a sort of exposé on her world of Earthsea, which wasn't to the extent of something like HoME, but still showed a lot of thought and consideration that went into her world.

Speaking as as writer (not that I'd ever let you forget it, eh?), I know that it is important to know more about your characters and their world, than you put forth in the story. So being able to explain and 'jusitfy' certain things in one's story isn't, I think, exclusive to Tolkien. I've often found myself boring other people to death with all the many behind-the-scenes history and seemingly trivial facts I've got stored in my brain for possible use. And even if it doesn't get used, it's still valuable in the subtext of a story, giving it hidden depths and layers.

So, I think that the kind of detailed appendix fodder Tolkien created, is something actually common to any serious writer who really wants to have a good book. That said, I don't think anyone has taken it to the same level he did. I.E., it's rare to find that quantity of background work in your average piece of fiction. But any author, I think, will be able to chew your ear off about their story, if you let them. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

If Tolkien was less of a detail man/genius/linguist, Lord of the Rings certainly wouldn't be as good as it is. But I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying that it wouldn't still be a great work. It wouldn't go as deep, we probably wouldn't have forums discussing it, but I can still see it being something of a classic. The basic story itself, is wonderful. There is an immense amount of subplotting (not to mention all those Silmarillion allusions) which makes it all the more richer, as it is. But surely, the story of a little person saving the world against all odds, is a timeless idea and would have been just as powerful in and of itself, even if Tolkien was not quite the perfectionist he was. The story and world would be less, to be sure, but not nothing.

I may just be trying to be optimistic, of course, because I'm nowhere near the genius Tolkien was, but still hope to write a good yarn, even if I can't create languages, epic poems, and reams of historic tales, to go with it.

[ May 15, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

Tinuviel the Nightingale · 05-15-2003, 03:10 AM

If the books had been written by someone different, then in my opinion everything would have been completely different. The storylines wouldn't have been the same , the languages wouldn't have been the same and there would be completely different characters.
It also depends on exactly who else would write the books. Every author has a different style and different view-points on certain subjects, and their skills vary as well.

Yavanna228 · 05-16-2003, 08:21 PM

I suppose that I shall now add my own opinion to my question.
If LOTR had been written by someone else, even if it did not sound the depths that Tolkien did, I believe it would be somewhat of a classic, as Diamond18 said. The universal theme of Good vs. Evil makes the plot appealing, and the fantastic, wonderful settings would be attractive as well. Again, as Diamond said (you had so many good points!), with an author such as Tolkien having so many of his histories in his mind, even the glimpse he gives us of them is spectacular. I concur with the opinion that if Tolkien wasn't so meticulous, or if the 'other author' we are supposing about wasn't either, we would indeed miss out.
Anyone want to add anything? Or detract? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

Orominuialwen · 05-16-2003, 09:29 PM

This would be a sad, sad world if the books weren't written by JRRT. That's all I can say.

05-11-2003, 08:17 PM	#1
Yavanna228 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: on the wings of the morning Posts: 394	What if the books had been written by someone different? Hi all, I couldn't seem to find anything relating to this in other threads, so for my first thread(ahhh!) I would like to ask if you all thought that Middle-Earth and its ideas, cultures, languages, and such would still be as powerful and enduring if someone other than Tolkien had written them? I know, this is probably a silly question, but I was wondering what you all thought about it. Peace __________________ 'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!'

05-11-2003, 08:36 PM	#2
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	The languages probably wouldn't even exist if the author wasn't a linguist. No ordinary author would be able to come up with stuff such as that. I'm not saying that other authors are ordinary; there are plenty of extraordinary authors out there, but they are great in their own realm of work. I don't think that any other fantasy writer (that I've read) has such a depth of language as Tolkien did. Say, for example, if TH White wrote it. It would be much more childish sounding and not as desciptive (at least, not in the same visual way). The story just wouldn't seem as true and well rounded. Things would be skimmed over or left out. But, I don't really think there is a way to answer this question. If Tolkien hadn't created Middle Earth I don't think it would exist at all. __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

05-11-2003, 08:49 PM	#3
Yavanna228 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: on the wings of the morning Posts: 394	Thanks Tigerlily...sorry for the un-answerable question...I suppose I just wanted to see what everyone else thought would be different. Peace __________________ 'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!'

05-11-2003, 09:48 PM	#4
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	[img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]^^ [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [ May 11, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ] __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

05-11-2003, 11:26 PM	#5
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	In all fairness, Bill, that was Mayhemish joke thread. I think Yavanna's looking for a more serious discussion on the topic. On that note: I think it's impossible to say that anyone else could write "Lord of the Rings", because any novel (or at least, any good one) comes from the unique heart and soul of that particular writer, which cannot be duplicated unless one is just plagiarizing. Besides that, our subconscious creative minds are shaped by our particular lives, and no two people will live the same life. That is not to say Tolkien based it off of his own life, but of course how you grow up, and who you learn from, will affect what you know and how you think. My fuzzy point being that writers don't just write books, they create them much the way you'd give birth to (or 'beget', if you're a guy) a child, and the book bears the resemblance to its author that a child does to its parent. It'll have the parent's genes and will be molded as the parent raises it. So LotR would not simply have a different style or a few surface divergences in plot — if the idea was "born" to a different author, it wouldn't even be anything like the "Lord of the Rings" we know, in the first place. Because I doubt, even, that the idea itself could come to another writer, as LotR didn't just pop into Tolkien's mind: it grew from The Hobbit and The Silmarillion, which in turn grew from his love of languages, etc. [ May 12, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

05-12-2003, 07:25 AM	#6
Yavanna228 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: on the wings of the morning Posts: 394	Monsieur Ferny, pardon my newbie-ishness. In all honesty, I don't know why I didn't come across that thread in my search. Mea culpa. Diamonds- You are right. Thank you for your intelligent reply [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Perhaps next time I will come up with a better topic. Practice makes perfect, eh? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Thanks again. Peace __________________ 'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!'

05-12-2003, 10:15 AM	#7
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	Diamond18, you have a better way with words than I do. I very much agree with what you've written... it's what I would've written if I could've. Hey, there you go, an example... I can't write what Diamond18 wrote because I am not her, I am me.. therefore the words come out much differently. Even if people played on what Tolkien has done it would end up being completely different, yet the same. I've never read any, but I know there are books out there based on Tolkien... I've seen them in the fantasy section... stories of Dark Elves, and Orcs, and such. Perhaps they would be a good comparison of how other authors just can't step up to Tolkien's plate. __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

05-12-2003, 12:05 PM	#8
GaladrieloftheOlden Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there... Posts: 1,514	There is a humor thread on this topic you might want to look at... CLICK ME It's nothing serious, but I thought I'd give you the link anyhow... ~Menelien __________________ "Glue... very powerful stuff."

05-12-2003, 12:20 PM	#9
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Indeed, Bill. That thread is dedicated to parodies of LoTR as written by specific people. This is an entirely different thread looking for a more serious answer apparently and as such, will continue. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

05-12-2003, 02:22 PM	#11
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Bill's eloquent little angry face post included a link to that thread, as well. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

05-13-2003, 11:56 AM	#12
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Back to the topic... Have any of you read The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien? A few of the letters are in response to readers who questioned Tolkien's decisions in specific instances and made inferences that weren't there. He denies them and offers a massive, full-proof explanation as to why he did what he did. It's quite impressive. Are there other authors who to that great length in making every tiny decision? With so many twists and turns in the plot, The Lord of the Rings would've been chaotic without that sort of forethought, don't you think? __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

05-14-2003, 11:43 AM	#13
Yavanna228 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: on the wings of the morning Posts: 394	No, I have never read that book, but it's with a bit of trepidation that I think about what LOTR would be like without the intricate orchestration. I think that the attention to detail makes the stories believable, but there is never so much detail as to make it seem forced. I'll re-ask one of my questions: Do you think that without Tolkien's genius that ME and its saga could have been so enduring? Even if you think there is an obvious answer, just post what you think! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Peace __________________ 'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!'

05-14-2003, 10:50 PM	#14
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	I've read Tolkien's letters, but I've not read that many biographies or other such information on other authors, to be able to know just how they went about crafting their stories. I know that in Tales from Earthsea, Ursula K. LeGuin put together a sort of exposé on her world of Earthsea, which wasn't to the extent of something like HoME, but still showed a lot of thought and consideration that went into her world. Speaking as as writer (not that I'd ever let you forget it, eh?), I know that it is important to know more about your characters and their world, than you put forth in the story. So being able to explain and 'jusitfy' certain things in one's story isn't, I think, exclusive to Tolkien. I've often found myself boring other people to death with all the many behind-the-scenes history and seemingly trivial facts I've got stored in my brain for possible use. And even if it doesn't get used, it's still valuable in the subtext of a story, giving it hidden depths and layers. So, I think that the kind of detailed appendix fodder Tolkien created, is something actually common to any serious writer who really wants to have a good book. That said, I don't think anyone has taken it to the same level he did. I.E., it's rare to find that quantity of background work in your average piece of fiction. But any author, I think, will be able to chew your ear off about their story, if you let them. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] If Tolkien was less of a detail man/genius/linguist, Lord of the Rings certainly wouldn't be as good as it is. But I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying that it wouldn't still be a great work. It wouldn't go as deep, we probably wouldn't have forums discussing it, but I can still see it being something of a classic. The basic story itself, is wonderful. There is an immense amount of subplotting (not to mention all those Silmarillion allusions) which makes it all the more richer, as it is. But surely, the story of a little person saving the world against all odds, is a timeless idea and would have been just as powerful in and of itself, even if Tolkien was not quite the perfectionist he was. The story and world would be less, to be sure, but not nothing. I may just be trying to be optimistic, of course, because I'm nowhere near the genius Tolkien was, but still hope to write a good yarn, even if I can't create languages, epic poems, and reams of historic tales, to go with it. [ May 15, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

05-15-2003, 03:10 AM	#15
Tinuviel the Nightingale Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Splashing around in Galadriel's Mirror Posts: 299	If the books had been written by someone different, then in my opinion everything would have been completely different. The storylines wouldn't have been the same , the languages wouldn't have been the same and there would be completely different characters. It also depends on exactly who else would write the books. Every author has a different style and different view-points on certain subjects, and their skills vary as well. __________________ I am no longer Saruman the White... I am Saruman THE BRINGER OF ALL THINGS FLUFFY AND SPECIAL! Join Legends of Middle Earth!

05-16-2003, 08:21 PM	#16
Yavanna228 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: on the wings of the morning Posts: 394	I suppose that I shall now add my own opinion to my question. If LOTR had been written by someone else, even if it did not sound the depths that Tolkien did, I believe it would be somewhat of a classic, as Diamond18 said. The universal theme of Good vs. Evil makes the plot appealing, and the fantastic, wonderful settings would be attractive as well. Again, as Diamond said (you had so many good points!), with an author such as Tolkien having so many of his histories in his mind, even the glimpse he gives us of them is spectacular. I concur with the opinion that if Tolkien wasn't so meticulous, or if the 'other author' we are supposing about wasn't either, we would indeed miss out. Anyone want to add anything? Or detract? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Peace __________________ 'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!'

05-16-2003, 09:29 PM	#17
Orominuialwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2003 Location: Umbar, but before the corsairs took over. (Ave Maria University, FL, USA) Posts: 632	This would be a sad, sad world if the books weren't written by JRRT. That's all I can say. __________________ Gone for lentSeeyou at Easter! (And on Sundays too, maybe.)