TUOR SON OF HUOR

I have had a recent obsession of what happened to Tuor. Did he in fact make it to the sacred isle or did he perish in the sea?

[Mithadan]

Welcome to the Barrow-Downs! All we know is that of all men, Tuor was counted as one of the Noldor. This does not necessarily mean he shared in the fate of the Elves, though some have so interpreted it. It easily could mean he was given honorary status.

[Jjudvven]

Personally, I don't think he made it.

[Aralaithiel]

Have you read Unfinished Tales?

[Bruce MacCulloch]

The story of Tuor in Unfinished Tales goes only as far as his arrival in Gondolin.

[Tar Elenion]

In Letter 153 JRRT said that (in the mythology) 'it is supposed (not stated) that Tuor received the limited Elvish immortality'. Later in that letter he says that the case of Tuor (in receiving the Gift of Elves) "was a direct act of God".

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Kuruharan]

This does not necessarily mean he shared in the fate of the Elves, though some have so interpreted it. It easily could mean he was given honorary status.

Hmm...could this become yet another of those persistant and raging controversies that are never solved and never go away?

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Originally posted by Kuruharan:
<STRONG>
Hmm...could this become yet another of those persistant and raging controversies that are never solved and never go away?</STRONG>

I hope so!

But clearly Idril and he didn't quite make to Valinor for awhile, at least not before Æärendil, and may have died as a result of their voyage, and gone to the Halls of Mandos together like Beren & Lúthien, but were given sort of the opposite choice, as part of the whole accomodations with all of the mixed-blood children. Consideration or being counted as a Noldor doesn't make much sense or have any meaning, unless it involved some significant assumption of their fate as opposed to that of Men.

[Mithadan]

But if Tuor and Idril left Mandos and dwelt as Elves in the West, how would anyone in Middle Earth know? The Host of the West left Valinor only 50 years after Earendil and the Noldor who passed into the West after the War which ended the First Age were not permitted to return to ME (except in the case of Glorfindel whose circumstances were both different and exceptional).

The fate of Tuor, both in the Sil and Letters is related as only a rumor. However the source of the rumour is unclear and its reliability somewhat questionable.

[Aralaithiel]

Oh boy! More controversy! Sounds like fodder for a great fan fiction story!
I agree with you, Kuruharan! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

Somehow I really rather doubt that this could become the next B-wings question. Probably because more people have read Lord of the Rings than the Sil, and whether or not Tuor became an immortal does not relate to people's deeply cherished mental pictures.

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

All the same, it's nice to imagine just one of that family passing out of the narrative alive. They get pretty short shrift in general.

[Elenhin]

Mithadan: There was communication between Númenor and the Undying Lands in the Second Age, so if Tuor became immortal the Elves would surely have told the Númenoreans, who would in turn have told the Elves of Middle-Earth. So that is not a problem.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Originally posted by Mithadan:
<STRONG>But if Tuor and Idril left Mandos and dwelt as Elves in the West, how would anyone in Middle Earth know? The Host of the West left Valinor only 50 years after Earendil and the Noldor who passed into the West after the War which ended the First Age were not permitted to return to ME (except in the case of Glorfindel whose circumstances were both different and exceptional).

The fate of Tuor, both in the Sil and Letters is related as only a rumor. However the source of the rumour is unclear and its reliability somewhat questionable.</STRONG>

How does anyone know anything? . . . Because Tolkien wrote it at one time or another, but I'm sure there are ways to account for it; maybe Glorfindal saw him hanging out with Elvis.

If Tolkien chose to play this choice tidbit up as a legend (or rumor) within the more "reliable" legend, then that is only to heighten the sense of sacred mystery that Tuor's joining the Noldor should have entailed. But notwithstanding this intentional vagueness and uncertainty, I see no problem accepting it at face value.

I didn't quite understand the 50-year thing. Could you explain it better?

Also, I've gleaned elsewhere that the wonderful "Glorfindel" from the Fords of Bruinen is remarkably the same Glorfindel killed while destroying a Balrog in defense of the refugees of Gondolin. Wow! Where's that told, in terms of how he got released from the Halls of Mandos, which is also suggested for the most beloved Finrod Felagund, but also was allowed to return by the middle of the Third Age to Middle-Earth and Rivendell. No wonder he was able to prophesize so well about the Witch King's ultimate fate.

[Elendur]

Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Earrame, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Turor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whome he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

I wouldn't doubt that this rumor is true. Tuor served Ulmo in every way he could and never thought about himself. I think that he would deserve to atleast come to Eressea.

Mithadan: There was communication between Númenor and the Undying Lands in the Second Age, so if Tuor became immortal the Elves would surely have told the Númenoreans, who would in turn have told the Elves of Middle-Earth. So that is not a problem.

I am assuming he made it to Aman. I dont really understand what happened to Tuor. Did he stay a man and yet be immortal or was he counted as one of the Eldar? But the reason I reply to this is because if he did gain immortality, I doubt the elves would tell the people of Numenor about it. They were showing signs of envy towards the elves because they thought that living in Aman made them immortal. So the elves coming to Numenor and talking about Tuor becoming immortal when he reached the land of Aman would be kindof foolish. Men might take that the wrong way and assume even more that Aman = immortal.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Elendur ]

[Mithadan]

In Tolkien's later work, he struggled a bit with the distinction between legends of the Elves and legends of Men. A direct reference is found in the introduction to Tom Bombadil where he attributes the various poems to different sources and states that the Tale of Turin was written by a man.

In later HoME volumes, this distinction arises again where he attempts to address or reconcile the "flat earth" view of Arda with the "round earth" view by suggesting that the flat earth view as well as tales in the Silmarillion as well as the Ainulindale may have been mannish versions of legends originally told by Elves and either "corrupted" or changed in the retelling over many years or simply misunderstood by the Numenoreans. JRRT ultimately either rejected this view or simply never decided how to deal with it.

The Red Book presumably contained Bilbo's versions of Elvish tales heard directly from the Elves, but may have been recorded inaccurately due to lack of complete understanding. Further, the Red Book was supplemented by scholars in Gondor who may have included remote rumors and legends (true or untrue) as well as "facts". So when LoTR and the Sil. say "it was later said" or "it was sung", this may refer to "mannish" legends rather than true Elvish tales.

Elendur also makes a good point that the Elves may (wisely) have not told the Numenoreans about Tuor being given the fate of the Elves for the reasons he stated. Man-of-the-Wold, the significance of the 50 years is that Tuor, if he arrived in Valinor at all, would have been "elevated" to Elven status by the time the Host of the West came to Beleriand. If he were somehow given immortality this would be a significant event and the tale would have been related accurately to Elves and/or men and thus would not be a rumor or legend but rather treated as a "fact".

[Aralaithiel]

Man-of-the-Wold: Maybe he saw... hanging out with Elvis

Elvis?!?!?! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Aralaithiel ]

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Aralaithiel ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Originally posted by Mithadan:
<STRONG> the significance of the 50 years is that Tuor, if he arrived in Valinor at all, would have been "elevated" to Elven status by the time the Host of the West came to Beleriand. If he were somehow given immortality this would be a significant event and the tale would have been related accurately to Elves and/or men and thus would not be a rumor or legend but rather treated as a "fact".</STRONG>

I just wasn't aware that 50 years would have passed between Æärendil's arrival and the Host of the West's departure. I don't see it in The Silmarillion. Nevertheless, the impression is of only fairly chaotic interaction between the Host's members and the Men and Elves then living in Middle-Earth. Among the Edain who interacted with them, the fate Tuor may have become known and a matter of faith for some. Still, I would compare it to the situation with Beren and Lúthien. Were Tuor and Idril Celebrindal released from the Halls of Mandos to live as Noldor in Aman, before the Host set forth, chances are they probably went and did the reclusive thing, too, somewhere in the more distant north or south of Aman, and had very little interaction with the Eldar. The Valar and Maiar would probably have avoided publicizing the situation to any of the Children of Ilúvatar. But likely someone like Finarfin would have known, and would have related it to Gil-Galad and Círdan, as well as Elrond and Elros during the War of Wrath. They in turn would have treated such information with great reverence, and not as a subject for everyday transcriptions of lore. In other words, if The Silmarillion comes from Bilbo's hand, the point of Tuor was something he picked up in Rivendell, perhaps from Elrond, but not from the books that he transcribed.

Ultimately, I still fall back on the notion that this all comes from Tolkien, who could never work out every relationship to either his or our satisfaction. And that he was trying to make it all beautiful. So, having Tuor's fate being "rumored" is just a way of making the whole thing more charming and awe-inspiring for the reader. I like it being that way.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[Tar Elenion]

In Letter 153 JRRT addresses the issue of Tuor.
"In the primary story of Lúthien and Beren, Luthien is allowed as an absolute exception to divest herself of 'immonality' and become 'mortal' - but when Beren is slain by the Wolf-warden of the Gates of Hell, Lúthien obtains a brief respite in which they both return to Middle-earth 'alive' - though not mingling with other people : a kind of Orpheus-legend in reverse, but one of Pity not of Inexorability. Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way. Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor) and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share.
[and later]
Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God. The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves."

From this letter we see that JRRT notes that within the story it is only "supposed" that Tuor became 'immortal'. Outside the story JRRT the author acknoweldges that Tuor was in fact changed by God and thus accounted among the Elves.

[Kuruharan]

Maybe we have the next B-wings question here after all.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Originally posted by Tar Elenion:
<STRONG>In Letter 153 JRRT addresses the issue of Tuor.
" Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality': an exception either way. * * *
Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."

From this letter we see that JRRT notes that within the story it is only "supposed" that Tuor became 'immortal'. Outside the story JRRT the author acknoweldges that Tuor was in fact changed by God and thus accounted among the Elves.</STRONG>

Tar Elenion is the "Lord of Letters".

I think this fairly solidifies the idea of Tuor as a sort of counterpart to Lúthien. I think its then fair to say that like she and Beren, he and Idril probably kept a low profile, which is why it is both fitting and really cool that Tolkien portray's his fate even mysteriously, since it is played out in the Blessed Realm.

[Lalaith]

I too have always been intrigued by this question. What always thought especially poignant was that Earendil embarked on his voyage partly because he wanted to see his parents, and especially his mother, again. I do hope he did find them in Aman.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I hodl the view that him and Idril landed on one of the enchanted islands, and wont be woken until the end of time.

[doug*platypus]

I thought it was said somewhere (maybe one of the HOME books?) that Tuor made it to Tol Eressëa, but it is never explicitly mentioned if he went to Aman. Oh, wait, yeah, it's definitely in The Shaping of Middle-Earth. Tuor and Idril sail around Aman forever, and in the Bay of Fäerie, but it is never stated that he lands in Undying Lands. I think that fate was reserved for Eärendil alone, and that Tol Eressëa is some kind of halfway house with less strict rules.

As for

But if Tuor and Idril left Mandos and dwelt as Elves in the West, how would anyone in Middle Earth know?

the tradition of The Book of Lost Tales say that one englishman named Ælfwine (and by the elves Eriol) sailed into the west and was taught all of the stories, and it is through him that they are brought back to England.