The Effects of Fantasy

[Thalionyulma]

This is one powerful thread... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Allow me share my two cent's worth, simple though my words will be...

What effects did fantasy have? Well, like most who have posted here, I too can relate to those reasons.. as like any adolescent, I went throught tough times, too. And its those times that shape you, or break you.

In these times I find that the world can be very cruel and cold. Fantasy can give one a scene of "what could be". The setting need not be ME, or Pern, or Star Trek Voyager, or King Arthur's Court for that matter. It also reminds me that Man has virtues - no matter how bad the world seems to be. That like in a fantasy book, there is good out there. There are people who are heroes, willing or not.

I believe if man did not fantasize, mankind would not have "grown". If flying or going to the moon was JUST a fantasy, how could airplanes and space shuttles have been made? Or many other inventions, for that matter... It may have started like a wild idea... stories of flying, of fantasy. If a country under colonial rule for 300 years did not "fantasize" of freedom... would it have ever known democracy?

In my personal opinion, without fantasy Man would be just like any other animal... or plant. Thinking ONLY of his basic needs, fighting ONLY for territory. (No I'm not mistaking fantasy for ideals and such.)

What was the effect of fantasy on me? A lot. It has given me dreams.

King Carlton, I like non-fiction too, but not as much as I like fantasy! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thalionyulma ]

[Gayalondiel]

This is already a quite heavy thread, but i'm going to stick my oar in anyway as theses are things i've never been able to tell anyone before, as it seems a bit silly to me. anyway, here goes...

Tolkien's writings have affected me quite profoundly in two major ways. Firstly was that i was always a loner as a child after my best friend moved away, i was good at work and grades but not so good at friendship. and although i was writing music, it always seemed about forth-rate to me. Reading fantasy books in general gave my imagination a bit of a kick-start, and also took a focus for my imagination so i wasn't always off in my own world and began to see things, including friendships, in a more realistic light. And recently my compositions inspired by LOTR have suprised me, i write things that i had no idea were there.
The second way is much harder to talk about, so forgive me if this is garbled. My grandmother died when I was 12, and from that point on my grandfather declined. I understand now what i couldn't see then, that the grief was too much for him to bear. but for a few years it seemed to my eyes that he was picking up, although i'm not sure now that he was. Anyway, january of two years ago he got very ill and went into a coma. after about a month he began picking up again, but one day he woke up enough to remove his life support apparatus himself, and died shortly after. (I know this seems completely irrelevent to tolkien, but i'm getting there). For a long time i just couldn't accept why he did that. It wasn't until i read the chapter on beren and luthien in the sil last year that i realised he'd died of a broken heart. Although he was in a coma for 8 weeks, he dies on the day of my grandmother's funeral. reading about luthien's sacrifice for beren i realised that was why my grandfather died, he couldn't be without his wife any more

crikey, sorry that was so long and kind of irrelevant. but i needed to say it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Amarinth]

Amarinth – Am I to understand that having the privilege of living in a better country than your own (in your assumption), I am incapable of reading into the true meaning and intent of a story. That I miss out entirely on the hidden level of emotional content that the author keeps at certain aspects of his writing. And those here who share equally the privileges as mine (again in you assumption) are also at such a loss.
Midway through, your post appears to loose all purpose of meaning for me and I skip to the end to find an admission on you part, to your folly. As well as a sort of patronization that was not necessary.

(sigh) no matter how gracious and humble i try to phrase my answer, this is what i get [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] please reread the posts: i impute nothing to you as you suggest above, though you seem to have no problem imputing a lot to me. and humility is never folly to people who have a healthy dose of it!

for my seeming to patronize, again it is the language barrier for me. looking at your reply i believe you shouldn't mind that. if you can't take it, don't dish it, as my gaffer says!

child-thanks for the kind words. i'm happy to know you're a teacher--that you are!

peace! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Amarinth]

BTW, nothing important really, but did anyone else notice how all my posts in this thread are numbered 73?

BARROW-WIGHT, help! don't wanna be a haunting spirit forever, hu-hu-hu...

[Amarinth]

OH PHOOEY, now i get it! all my posts get updated with each new post! i never noticed that before!

BARROW-WIGHT, sorry...

[KingCarlton]

Amarinth – I withdraw MY unwarranted, partisan observations.

Thalionyulma – I fear that you have posed quite a conundrum for me here with these very strong and very valid points that may cause me some duress in furthering my argument on this thread. Yet all is not lost for me yet, as you see the debate I am taking up to my sentimentally aroused friends here is of the presumption of a piece of fiction being used as a means of self analysis and growth, in relation to the fictional journeys and achievements of their beloved character of imagination.
Your points of fantasy as a means of a longing for freedom and exploration really blew me away. I am waylaid by that observation, having no will in me to oppose them.

But hey, this view does strengthen my argument on another thread where I am trying to convince people that all thought in terms of a desire is fantasy, all thought derived from that desire, assimilated and noted down is fiction and all fiction derived from that desire is fantasy. So all fiction is fantasy; and fantasy is not a part of fiction but instead fiction is part of fantasy. Fantasy covers thought, dreams, nightmares, writings, verbal tales and realized ideals.

Your personal opinion about fantasy is acknowledged and shared. Dreams are deeds that are not yet realized. But dwell on them too long and you will no longer have need for reality.

Know Peace!

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: KingCarlton ]

[Mister Underhill]

When personal insults and dripping sarcasm start showing up in posts, moderator intervention can't be far behind.

We work hard to maintain a respectful tone here. That doesn't mean you can't express strong opinions or disagree -- just do it like adults.

This thread has generated a lot of raw emotions. Let's can the back-and-forth moving forward.

[Child of the 7th Age]

KingCarlton--OK, let's take this slowly and gently.

I was surprised when this thread engendered disagreement. Like you, I enjoy talking about and debating Tolkien. As your own post stated, "What point is it to have a forum if everyone agrees at everything.?" There are literally thousands of such topics amenable to debate. These range from questions of characterization and the search for sources to interpretation of myriad threads and ideas. The list is endless.

However, in this thread, Rosa Underhill raises a very different question. She asks:

...did fantasy books (Tolkien or otherwise) ever help you make it through a time of crisis?

She essentially invites us to share thoughts and insights about our own lives and personal response to the books. This is very different from questions of fact, characterization, or interpretation.

And this is where our communication breaks down. I have no trouble accepting that, in your own reading of the books and your own life, you have found no reason to turn to Tolkien or any other work of literature for consolation or "have not felt any sense of elation or empathy from reading either poems or works of any other writers including Tolkien." This is legitimate. The problem comes when you state that all others should adopt this exact same criterion in their personal response. It just doesn't work.

I have never walked in the shoes of any other poster on this site. I don't know the details of their lives, or for that matter of yours. Because of this limitation in my insight, any judgment I might make from outside on such personal matters is just not possible. It's bound to be flawed.

As far as gender differences go, you have a point that our society allows women to express their emotions much more easily than men. However, there were at least a few posters in the thread who were definitely male (lots of times, I can't tell.) Both Littlemanpoet and Wormtongue used words in their posts like "recovery and consolation" and one even stated "I identified with something for the first time and was able to adopt a personality akin to the positive and noble charcteristics of the wondrous beings in the books." Such sentiments are not too far from what I was saying so I don't think it's just a matter of gender differences.

We could get into debates on other related issues that you referred to at least briefly: why Tolkien wrote these works, exactly what he expected readers to take from them, the value of myth in pointing the way to underlying reality, the legitimacy of playfully adopting a point of view or moniker which stands outside concrete reality. Tolkien's Letters are some of the best sources for at least some of these topics. I do think we'd have different perspectives and feelings about many of these. So let's just agree to disagree and go on from there. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Jessica Jade]

King Carlton--First of all-are you a hardcore realist or something? From reading your posts i've come to that conclusion.
I could go on eugolizing my appreciation for Tolkien until the world dies, and yet, I don't think that I could ever get you to remotely agree with me or see things how i see them. You have some good points, but we obviously think in VERY different ways. I am overwhelmed now because i don't think i could ever get you to understand why I (And many others here) find Tolkien books relevant to life. We probably will never see eye to eye, but I will post another reply to your questions/points later, when i have more time.

[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]

[Thinhyandoiel]

KingCarlton: I have had a debate with you before on another thread. That one was short-lived, as it was a matter of opinion and quite unimportant to what we were discussing. But you have hit me hard with your response:

Thinhyandoiel – I find it strange that something as trivial as one’s parents’ quarrel could put you in such a state of depression. No, I find it hilarious!

I suggest you not look to judge what I feel, as you do not, and obviously will not, understand me and my life. When my parents quarrel, it is not a trivial thing and I do not appreciate you finding humour in my distress. The seriousness of what happened last night in my house will not leave my mind and indeed my hands are shaking as I type. You judge much to quickly, I did not ask for it nor do I want it. I was simply responding to the question asked in the beginnning of the thread, hoping that perhaps some use could come out of it all for Rosa's paper. Your laughter was not intended, but neither do I ask for sympathy. Can I not share an experience like the rest here in peace? Or is that too much to ask. You say no one can have the same opinion, that we would all be robots if we did. While that is true, I would ask that you hold your tongue in some matters. I respected your difference of opinion before, as the old adage goes "I may not like what you have to say but I will defend your right to say it".
But I will not tolerate what you have said about the hilarious state of my parents fight. Also, I do not recall stating that I was depressed. Tormented, fear, anger and silence were the words I used. In this case, Carlton, I have no respect for what you have said.

[Thinhyandoiel]

I would also like to apologize to the moderators as my last response was quite off topic. It will not happen again. I am sorry.

[KingCarlton]

I withdraw MY unwarranted, partisan observations.

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: KingCarlton ]

[Auriel Haevasawen]

I for one woman on this site is glad of your strong opinions and intelligent devil's advocature but I did find it disconcerting when you found a girl's distress at her parent's rowing hilarious. Rowing parents is not hilarious when you're caught in the crossfire. OK we know leaning on Tolkien is not the answer but I found that rather flippent. Make your points and erudite comments but be considerate too. You had my respect until then.

[Amarinth]

king-- you surprise me with this personal attack, and i am tempted to return the favor. i know the barrow-wight will not approve, but i must answer your post anyway, despite my better judgment, because i cannot tolerate the personal nature of its content.

Amarinth – Would is suffice to say that in your gracious and humble view, I detected a hint of sarcasm towards my provenance. Unintended or not, I cannot say.
As for the language barrier you keep reiterating, well, you could have fooled me. I see no hint of inadequacy in your grasp of the English Language, yet it does suffer from all the bursts of emotional babbling that is quite difficult to follow.

yes i can write perfect english, thank you, but i cannot express myself as clearly or naturally as i would like, that is why i am sometimes difficult to follow. emotional babbling? (raises one eyebrow). this is just too LOW, especially for you, king.

However, I find from other sources that I may have been mistaken in my assumption of you. I understand now that you have never really taken part in a serious debate and that you easily resort to emotional breakdown and self pity, when seriously challenged upon.

this statement is so full of presumption i don't know WHERE to begin! let me just make it clear that my life does not revolve around the barrow-downs, SORRY! note that i'm member 500 yet still a haunting spirit PRECISELY because what little time i have for BD i use mostly to read off of it. emotional breakdown and pity?! it just AMAZES me how someone can have the NERVE to sit judgement on someone's emotional state the way you do! and so what if i hadn't participated in any serious debate? shall we do away with the other 2000-odd members who haven't also?

I was not aware that you were a woman nursing deep emotional scars that I may have reopened for you with my brusque and unfeeling opinions of you.

(raises BOTH eyebrows) YOU FLATTER YOURSELF. the strongest feelings i've had here on this thread are exasperation and indescribable disbelief!

What you need from this is a hug and warm smile. But I am afraid for that you need to look elsewhere.

shall we quote your line about being patronizing, king?

i was hoping to bow out of this thread with the same old neutrality i am used to, but i really cannot let this pass, king, not THIS CHEAP SHOT.

OK Barrow-wight, i'll wait for it...

[Mister Underhill]

I don't think there's a need for anyone to apologize.

KC: No one here has a problem with differing views -- but the Barrow Downs management team does have a problem with your tone. You've been taking cheap shots in several different threads for the past few days, and it has gone on long enough.

[Telchar]

I for one is happy to know the Admins opinions to matters like this - So thank you for filling us in Underhill!

[Nar]

I would very much like to hear some elaborations on the uses of fantasy. I recall reading somewhere of research suggesting that mental activities such as planning and problem solving reduce emotional distress in and of themselves-- perhaps the mental activity of planning and building a world for a fantasy story, or analyzing an existing story like LotR, has an effect similar to that of contemplative acts such as meditation or prayer.

I am also very interested in the aspect of fantasy as the (sub-)creation of a comprehensive world, as opposed to realistic literature, which is set in this world, the terms of existence exactly our own and therefore assumed rather than worked out from scratch or refined from a genre model. I am wondering if the process of inventing a world and limning the terms of its existence could induce the archetypes and myths that appear in fantasy.

[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Jessica Jade]

++Moderators-forgive me for posting this, but, after reading King's infuriatingly outrageous replies, I'm going against my better judgement and responding. I apologize for this, but, having been piqued, I can't help but do this.++

Okay, King Carlton. Child of the 7th Age has done an excellent job of articulating why one would appreciate fantasy and Tolkien. She has also made it perfectly clear how wrong you are to make snap judgements on people you don't even know. If you still cannot get a clue, it's not my problem, nor is it my loss. Based on your posts, it seems to me that you have trouble accepting the fact that people think differently from you, and that you are unable to see from another perpective. You have made yourself look like an extremely narrowminded person who lacks a creative edge. (note: i am not saying you ARE that way-because, who am i to judge since i don't even know you? I'm not about to stoop to your low level of judgement by jumping to conclusions.) I am merely saying that you have made yourself LOOK like a parochial philistine. (one who lacks appreciation for art.)

We could get into debates about the fine points you addressed regarding my last post. But frankly, I don't think you're really worth the time. I would like to reinforce how inappropriate and uncalled for your belittlement of other's emotions/beliefs were. (ie-when people's parents fight is serious situation. You have absolutely no right to make a judgement, since you don't even know the whole story). Nobody here appreciates your blatant rudeness and your lack of respect. You have evidently shown immaturity and close-mindedness.

Posing such comments to you in reply to your deepest cherished feelings of security, to basically tear to shreds your sense of being in accordance to your influence and affection for Tolkien/fantasy and then look forward to your reaction was my objective.

DO NOT FLATTER YOURSELF.

Excuse me-- As if MY deeply ingrained beliefs are so fickle that they change with whichever direction the wind blows? I DON't THINK SO. My beliefs are not going to waver simply because somebody exposes me to a different viewpoint. They especially are not going to change when somebody throws at me a load of crap that they can't even justify or support. So, King Carlton, like i said before and will say again: DO NOT FLATTER YOURSELF.

I've made my point as articulate as I can. If you still can't get it KC, then that is your problem. From now on, I'm not going to waste any more time on the topic of your inappropriate tone and disrespect.

[piosenniel]

No, fantasy books have never helped me during a time of crisis. What they have allowed me to do is to reflect on decisions I have made in my life by comparing them to decisions and their consequences made by characters in a story. Fanyasy writings have foregone conclusions, for the most part, in that the story line is usually wrapped up or at least strongly hinted at how it might wrap-up by the end of the story. Life, unfortunately or fortunately depending on how one looks at it, never works out as neatly as that.

[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[Manelwen]

KingCarlton: This is the only forum that I tend to go to constantly, the others really don't have that appeal to me. Religion is something that I have been slightly uneasy about. I don't scorn it, but well, the Barrowdowns specifically said no religion talk, so I best not get into it.

Maybe it is our gender that affects what we think. Actually, I have no doubt in my mind. We all act differently whether it be boy or girl. We attach to different characters, depending on how we feel and what we are going through that point in our life. I find males are sensitive on some emotions where females are not and vice versa.

Thinhyandoiel: You know what I find helps in a situation like that? Laugh. For no apparent reason just laugh. I tried it once and it worked, my parents stopped and gave me a funny look before they started to laugh as well. Of course, it all depends on what they are arguing about. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Timing is of the essence. Or scream a song, soon they'll want to stop because they want to know what you are doing. (I find yelling out a tune like 'When the Saints go Marching in' or the national anthem really throws things off...and purposefully sing in the screechiest voice possible.) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I hope my advice doesn't get me into trouble, or anyone else if they decide to take it...

-Manelwen

[Thinhyandoiel]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Manelwen! I thank you for your advice! And I do laugh, it was Tolkien that made me laugh. I just can't laugh when they (P.U's) fight and I'm not doing something to distract myself.

I am happy to say I am in a much calmer mood now that everything is alright at home, and thanks to everyone who put in a word for me. I appreciate it.

My use of Tolkien for the first time as a distraction was a good one. Laughter definately helps you focus your attention on something other than what you don't want to see (or hear) but of course, when I put the book down, I still had to face reality. Though, I found I was able to do it with a reduced level of anger within me. It was calming. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Nar: I've heard of that study too! And I believe it's true for most people. Problem solving helps focus your mind, just remember all the highschool tests!! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Put a math problem infront of most people and they will focus to try and solve it. I think it's the same in literature. When I read the Silmarillion, I noticed I have never been more focused before as I read a book! It's a demanding read, as I was trying to figure out who went where and where was where and who was who's brother/son/other relation etc. Also, comparing the Sil to other known mythology/legends. Numenore and Atlantis crossed my mind many times, and the great flood, etc. And, as I mentioned above with my experience, reading does have a calming effect on me.

[Daisy Sandybanks]

Wow, I feel really bad right now, haven't bee on here in quite a long time, before I go into this topic I would just like to say Hi all my fellow BarrowDowns comrades out there, for I have missed you all so much!
Enough said, yes, I'm still in my adolecent years,trying my best to cope with highscool, and fantasy books have given me a whole knew world to explore. Fantasy books have also definitly helped encourage me to draw more than usual, which I really appreciate.
Btw, I know this topic is probly really old right now, but I just had to have my say so in this.

[Manelwen]

I just got a new fantasy book today...from a series called the'Truth Sword' Series...you know, I love reading fantasy novels, and I find that I love buying them too!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] It is quite fun and it is really hilarious to hear my mother grumble that I have nothing better to spend my money on. I tell her it could be drugs and booze if she would want it any other way. Just joking though.

I was doing the dishes the other day and I thought of something else that could make a person smile...you know how 'Laughter is the best medicine' and that other one 'an apple a day keeps the doctor away' but if you laugh and eat applesauce, it'll come out your nose. *nods* Yep.

-Manelwen

[Rosa Underhill]

Wow. Just...wow...

I had no idea that fantasy literature could have had such profound effects on others. This is incredible, deep, heart wrenching sometimes, wonderfully true testimony to the power fantasy literature has. Thank you all so much for these amazing experiences and accounts of how your lives were changed by fantasy!

I haven't finished reading everything on this thread, but I have started compiling quotes. I will make a list of who I've gotten quotes from (sadly, I can't use every one, but I've put the ones that got my attention most into a Word document for future reference). I refuse to use any of these quotes without direct permission, though, because some are very personal and I know that some of you may not want me sharing your personal experiences with an English teacher.

I don't have the time presently to add to your accounts, but I do have a story of my own to share. I'll share it later on, though, since I've got to be at the bus stop post haste. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Keep sharing, everyone! And, King Carl, your opinions are well-written and noted. I may not agree with you but you have valid reasons for your belief so I won't dispute it. (If you had just said "I don't like fantasy because it sucks", well, then I might have something to argue with.... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])