Mauhur and his lads - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Mouth of Sauron · 03-18-2014, 05:49 PM

If memory serves correctly Gandalf was in Fangorn at the same time as Mauhur and his "Lads". Why didn't Gandalf use his powers to stop them?

William Cloud Hicklin · 03-18-2014, 06:13 PM

Maybe he did... plainly they were of no help to Ugluk

Legate of Amon Lanc · 03-20-2014, 04:58 AM

Let's not forget Fangorn is quite big. Treebeard and others were also there and did nothing. That's one thing; second: even Saruman (or his "ghost", apparition, whatever it was) was out there (a bit later) and nobody did anything (although it is true that one apparition of Saruman probably does much less noise than a band of warriors). Last of all, however: didn't, by any chance, Gandalf just at that point stand "on a high place" and battled with his will against Sauron in order to turn him away from Frodo? I believe this particular event occured just when Gandalf was in Fangorn. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. But it was certainly supposed to happen around that time, and I think in some timeline draft of Tolkien's it was even confirmed to be that way.

Galadriel55 · 03-20-2014, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Last of all, however: didn't, by any chance, Gandalf just at that point stand "on a high place" and battled with his will against Sauron in order to turn him away from Frodo? I believe this particular event occured just when Gandalf was in Fangorn.

I always interpreted it that he was helping Frodo on Amon Hen.

It would make sense based on Frodo's own experience of two conflicting forces trying to push him. So this would have had to happen a couple days before Mauhur and his lads were running through the woods, and most likely on a different high place...

But maybe I'm forgetting something else and you're right, he was just constantly hepling Frodo resist Sauron's will.

William Cloud Hicklin · 03-20-2014, 12:09 PM

Last of all, however: didn't, by any chance, Gandalf just at that point stand "on a high place" and battled with his will against Sauron in order to turn him away from Frodo?

In unpublished notes T said explicitly that Gandalf was "on a hill in Fangorn" when he strove with the Eye over Frodo on Amon Hen. This was two and a half days before "Mauhur and his lads" attempted to break the Riders' leaguer.

And, yes, it's true that Fangorn is quite big, 100 miles from east to west and even more north-south: as big as the whole Shire, and nearly the size of all of Mirkwood south of the Narrows. It's a bit like saying "They were both in Denmark, surely they must have seen each other."

Inziladun · 03-20-2014, 12:31 PM

Looking at Gandalf's actions throughout The Hobbit and LOTR, we don't see him seeking out swarms of armed enemies to personally destroy. Such actions very possibly were prohibited to the Istari, unless in self-defense, to avoid potential power-drunkenness.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 03-21-2014, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I always interpreted it that he was helping Frodo on Amon Hen.

It would make sense based on Frodo's own experience of two conflicting forces trying to push him. So this would have had to happen a couple days before Mauhur and his lads were running through the woods, and most likely on a different high place...

Well, it probably also took them a while to get to that place first, and also, maybe after an exhausting "battle of wills" and other stuff (trying to figure out what is happening, what is the forest doing, and what is the general situation since I've just returned from the dead a couple of days ago) Gandalf wasn't so keen to rightaway go and pursue some random Orc warband (of which there might likely have been more around, e.g. some random wood-gatherers or scouts).

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

In unpublished notes T said explicitly that Gandalf was "on a hill in Fangorn" when he strove with the Eye over Frodo on Amon Hen. This was two and a half days before "Mauhur and his lads" attempted to break the Riders' leaguer.

Yes, that was the one I meant. Thanks for providing that.

Quote:

And, yes, it's true that Fangorn is quite big, 100 miles from east to west and even more north-south: as big as the whole Shire, and nearly the size of all of Mirkwood south of the Narrows. It's a bit like saying "They were both in Denmark, surely they must have seen each other."

And yes, basically that was what I had in mind. We tend to see Fangorn as "oh, one forest, like the one near my house, where I take a walk for half an hour every afternoon". But Fangorn was essentially the size of a whole (smaller) country.

And Inzil's point is also quite a good observation, I'd say.

03-18-2014, 05:49 PM	#1
The Mouth of Sauron Wight Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Barad-Dur Posts: 196	Mauhur and his lads If memory serves correctly Gandalf was in Fangorn at the same time as Mauhur and his "Lads". Why didn't Gandalf use his powers to stop them?

03-18-2014, 06:13 PM	#2
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,301	Maybe he did... plainly they were of no help to Ugluk __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

03-20-2014, 04:58 AM	#3
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Let's not forget Fangorn is quite big. Treebeard and others were also there and did nothing. That's one thing; second: even Saruman (or his "ghost", apparition, whatever it was) was out there (a bit later) and nobody did anything (although it is true that one apparition of Saruman probably does much less noise than a band of warriors). Last of all, however: didn't, by any chance, Gandalf just at that point stand "on a high place" and battled with his will against Sauron in order to turn him away from Frodo? I believe this particular event occured just when Gandalf was in Fangorn. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. But it was certainly supposed to happen around that time, and I think in some timeline draft of Tolkien's it was even confirmed to be that way. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

03-20-2014, 12:09 PM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,301	Last of all, however: didn't, by any chance, Gandalf just at that point stand "on a high place" and battled with his will against Sauron in order to turn him away from Frodo? In unpublished notes T said explicitly that Gandalf was "on a hill in Fangorn" when he strove with the Eye over Frodo on Amon Hen. This was two and a half days before "Mauhur and his lads" attempted to break the Riders' leaguer. And, yes, it's true that Fangorn is quite big, 100 miles from east to west and even more north-south: as big as the whole Shire, and nearly the size of all of Mirkwood south of the Narrows. It's a bit like saying "They were both in Denmark, surely they must have seen each other." __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

03-20-2014, 12:31 PM	#6
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,036	Looking at Gandalf's actions throughout The Hobbit and LOTR, we don't see him seeking out swarms of armed enemies to personally destroy. Such actions very possibly were prohibited to the Istari, unless in self-defense, to avoid potential power-drunkenness. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.