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05-28-2002, 06:08 PM | #1 | |
The Kinslayer
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Where the Númenóreans destined to perish?
Even thought with all the gifts that the Valar and Eldar gave the Númenóreans, were they destined to be trapped by jealousy towards them. Couldn't they have saved their city and land. Was this their destiny?
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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05-28-2002, 07:12 PM | #2 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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It's kind of hard to say that Men were destined to do anything because they were given free will as part of Eru's gift to them.
But then again, Beren and Turin were both spoken of as having a doom on them. (There, can I come down on both sides of an issue or what. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )
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05-28-2002, 09:18 PM | #3 |
Eerie Forest Spectre
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction
Posts: 798
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Hail dwarf-friend, it's always good to see someone come down squarely on both sides of an argument! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Saves so much grief and warfare.
Okay, I'll take the challenge. And welcome to the Downs, Maedros. Good first post! I say no, they were not destined. Rather, they were predisposed due to their human failings, jealousy, and mortality, and therefore likely to fall. I mean, what a set up. Paradise only inches away. Few could meet such a challenge. But that's the point of being given free will: that some may meet it, without the mechanations of the Valar. Or of destiny. Destiny comes from the outside, the imposed will of Eru. Predisposition comes from the inside, human failings and nobility. The Numenorians had the free will to choose. Recall that not all chose wrongly. I believe this capacity to rise above failings is why it was said that mankind was to participate in the next song, the mending of Arda. Such a capacity would be necessary wouldn't it, to rise above the failings of the breaking of Arda, in order to mend it? Oh, sigh, I'm once again in awe of Tolkien's poetic instinct. -Maril [ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]
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Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? |
05-29-2002, 10:00 AM | #4 |
Regenerating Ringkeeper
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Holland
Posts: 757
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hey Maedhros, welcome to the Downs.
No, I don't think the Númenóreans were ment to perish. As Kuruharan said Eru gave them free will as a gift. So, they might have chosen if they hadn't assailed the Undying Lands. I think they perished because of the influence that one may have on the minds of men. And in this case I mean Sauron. I think, that if he hadn't been taken as a prisoner, Numenorë might still be. For if he hadn't been taken, he wouldn't have been the Kings chief counselor. He was it who at last maid them assail the Western Shores, with his lies and whisperings. I believe that if Sauron hadn't come to Numenorë, the Númenóreans would never think of assailing the West, for it was Sauron who told them that the Valar were frightened and that Melkor was Lord of All. greetings, lathspell
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'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.' |
05-29-2002, 12:57 PM | #5 | |
The Kinslayer
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Thank you for the welcome.
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Look at what the valar did. The created this island where you could see the "paradise" of gods and elves which cannot die. Why couldn't they put it in a place where the temptation would be less.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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05-29-2002, 01:48 PM | #6 |
Eerie Forest Spectre
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction
Posts: 798
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I thought you'd seize that thought (I would, if I were holding up the other side of the discussion). [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
It's a cruel set-up, but not ill-intentioned, to doom the Numenoreans. The Valar were both powerful and strikingly innocent. Again and again they failed to take into account the possible negative consequences of their actions. They never imagined when they went to fetch the elves to Valinor that some might not come, or what might happen by splitting the firstborn. Never pictured what harm Morgoth could do in their midst. They never dreamed Feanor would not give up the Silmarils. And for all of their power, they were helpless to stop Ungoliant, or save Feanor from his own impassioned foolhardiness. Their power was immense, yet still limited. Like us when confronted with an ant with a broken leg. For all the fancy things that we can do, invent computers, what have you, we can't fix something that small. And if try to intervene, we make matters worse. Eru alone was all-powerful, but once the song was sung he did not directly intervene, and the fate of men specifically he left to their own hands. As far as Sauron alone being to blame.. weeellllll.. I dunno. Ar-Pharazon was pillaging and enslaving most of the known world. They would not have assailed Valinor, true. But the majority of the Numenoreans were up to no good in any case. They had become corrupt already, which is why they were ripe for Sauron's lies. -Maril
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Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? |
05-29-2002, 02:08 PM | #7 | ||
The Kinslayer
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Remember, there was one king who tried to move again in the right path, but was ignored by the Valar. Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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05-29-2002, 04:47 PM | #8 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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