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Old 04-05-2006, 07:13 AM   #161
obloquy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
I think the issue is one of context. What did Tolkien mean by saying both Feanor & Luthien were 'greatest'?

Tolkien states at different times that Frodo, Sam & Aragorn was the 'hero' of LotR. Clearly they can't all have been the hero - simply that at different times Tolkien considered one to be the hero, at other times he considered another to fulfil that role. But in terms of context a statement may be qualified by what isn't stated

In Appendix F we find the 'clear' statement about Elves:



Now, CT has stated in BoLT1:



Because of this, in the revised 50th anniversary text the editors (Hammond & Scull) add the following note to LotR:



So, what we have is an apparently clear statement about the physical attributes of the 'Eldar' as a whole, but which in fact only applies to the Noldor. Whether this failure to distinguish between the Noldor & the Eldar as a whole applies in the case of Luthien vs Feanor is probably impossible to answer, but certainly it might be true to say that while Luthien was the 'greatest' of the Eldar, Feanor was the 'greatest' of the Noldor (unless we give that crown to Galadriel). Yet, Luthien was not strictly 'Eldar, but half-Eldar-half Ainur.

Let's not forget that Tolkien often made 'poetic' statements about characters & events as well as strictly 'factual' ones. And once we introduce the 'Translator Conceit' we have to ask which 'writer' within the Legendarium wrote which statement. There are a number of 'contributors' to the Legendarium, from Pengolodh to Bilbo, & one could speculate that they may have had their own particular biases.

I think this alone shows that we must be very careful about simply trying to trump each other with quotes....
I've seen these points before. The problem with your argument is that the note about Luthien being the greatest of all the Eldar is actually attached to a statement about Feanor and Galadriel being the greatest of the Noldor. In other words, Tolkien did not forget about one or the other, nor did he confuse his terms.
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Old 04-05-2006, 07:38 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by obloquy
I've seen these points before. The problem with your argument is that the note about Luthien being the greatest of all the Eldar is actually attached to a statement about Feanor and Galadriel being the greatest of the Noldor. In other words, Tolkien did not forget about one or the other, nor did he confuse his terms.
Aren't you giving too much weight to a single statement? Tolkien's thoughts were often in flux, & often one statement is contradicted by another. Look at the way Orodreth's character changes over the course of the Legendarium. At various times we have Feanor in the Ascendent, then Luthien, then Galadriel, & taking one statement about hierarchy as being definitive is purely arbitrary.

As I said originally - we have to look at what is 'unsaid' in any particular statement, not just at what is said.
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Old 04-05-2006, 11:00 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Aren't you giving too much weight to a single statement? Tolkien's thoughts were often in flux, & often one statement is contradicted by another. Look at the way Orodreth's character changes over the course of the Legendarium. At various times we have Feanor in the Ascendent, then Luthien, then Galadriel, & taking one statement about hierarchy as being definitive is purely arbitrary.

As I said originally - we have to look at what is 'unsaid' in any particular statement, not just at what is said.
Tolkien's words on this don't conflict. I understand that he often changes his mind, but in this case the quoted material is not in conflict with older statements. Additionally, it provides a concept of all three respective "statures" as they were conceived at a single time, without any one individual of this sort of triumvirate receiving special mention due to momentary whim. Again, at the time he wrote this, he was considering the stature of all three simultaneously and as compared with one another. Therefore it is the most solid conception.

Unless you're positing that there was another Elda besides these three who might be considered "greatest." In which case I'd like to see your references.
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Old 04-05-2006, 12:00 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
Tolkien's words on this don't conflict. I understand that he often changes his mind, but in this case the quoted material is not in conflict with older statements. Additionally, it provides a concept of all three respective "statures" as they were conceived at a single time, without any one individual of this sort of triumvirate receiving special mention due to momentary whim. Again, at the time he wrote this, he was considering the stature of all three simultaneously and as compared with one another. Therefore it is the most solid conception.

Unless you're positing that there was another Elda besides these three who might be considered "greatest." In which case I'd like to see your references.
And who wrote this statement - I mean within the Legendarium? Is the statement to be considered the opinion of that particular writer or one by the 'translator' Tolkien. Is the writer qualified to make an objective judgement or is he simply making a personal assessment? What standards is this writer using - what does he mean by 'greatest'? How is he using the term?
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Old 04-05-2006, 12:32 PM   #165
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Quote:
Tolkien's words on this don't conflict. I understand that he often changes his mind, but in this case the quoted material is not in conflict with older statements. Additionally, it provides a concept of all three respective "statures" as they were conceived at a single time, without any one individual of this sort of triumvirate receiving special mention due to momentary whim. Again, at the time he wrote this, he was considering the stature of all three simultaneously and as compared with one another. Therefore it is the most solid conception.
I'd concur that the statement itself contains within it a hierarchy of charcters as Tolkien (possibly through some source, I forget who within the legendarium wrote that particular statement) saw them...but again, I'd question as to what hierarchy we are talking about...Tolkien choose his words very carefully being a philologist...what exactly is the right reading of the word "greatest"?...maybe only he knows...
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Old 04-05-2006, 02:24 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
And who wrote this statement - I mean within the Legendarium? Is the statement to be considered the opinion of that particular writer or one by the 'translator' Tolkien.
The statement wasn't written within the Legendarium. It was one of Tolkien's essays, written about Middle-earth from without.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Is the writer qualified to make an objective judgement or is he simply making a personal assessment?
He's qualified to judge objectively. They're his creations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
What standards is this writer using - what does he mean by 'greatest'? How is he using the term?
It's used as you see it. A general "greatness of being," obviously not intended to indicate the size of the individuals. One might say that Tarkovsky is the greatest of all film directors, and while that statement is certainly debatable and the criteria for judgment obscure, the intended meaning is clear--Tarkovsky is superior to all other film directors. Unlike my example, the statement we're discussing is not debatable since it comes from the Creator. Since the statement is unqualified, the criteria for judgment are evidently all those things that make an Elda an Elda (or Noldo). It may be true that Feanor was a "greater" craftsman than Luthien, but that does not change that as individuals are estimated in greatness by their Creator, Luthien is greatest.
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Old 04-05-2006, 02:54 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by obloquy
The statement wasn't written within the Legendarium. It was one of Tolkien's essays, written about Middle-earth from without.
Then its opinion. We know how Tolkien altered his opinions on characters & events within the Legendarium, back & forth. If it was an essay by Tolkien commenting on the Legendarium its just his opinion

Quote:
He's qualified to judge objectively. They're his creations.
This would only be true if he had never made any contradictory statements about the Legendarium. As he did so, it has questionable weight.

Quote:
It may be true that Feanor was a "greater" craftsman than Luthien, but that does not change that as individuals are estimated in greatness by their Creator, Luthien is greatest.
At one point in an ever changing, ever evolving creation. If you compare what we know of both Luthien & Feanor, where's the evidence for Luthien's superiority? Are you just accepting that Luthien is 'greater' because in one essay Tolkien expressed his opinion that she was?

I accept that Tolkien is better qualified to judge than any of us, but he changed his opinion too much for his words to be taken as the final 'fact'.

The Translator Conceit is central to this discussion. Tolkien too is a 'Translator' after all. By placing himself in that role (as I've argued before) he becomes a character in his own creation. So effectively we have two Tolkien's - the primary world Oxford professor who invented the legends of Middle-earth, & the secondary world 'translator' of the Red Book. Which one wrote the essay?
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Old 04-05-2006, 03:03 PM   #168
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To go back to Tolkien's Fëanor statement, which the Phantom so eagerly supplies, one can see that Tolkien is NOT saying that Fëanor was the greatest craftsman (and so greater than Lúthien) but that he was the greatest all around- and then lists several fields as examples.

Since Tolkien elsewhere makes a similar (although without examples) statement about Lúthien being the greatest- and since he also makes a statment lumping the two of them together with Galadriel as the greatest, it is clear that they are both great, that one of them is the greatest- and that Tolkien's word, alone and by itself, cannot be taken as the final authority.

One must therefore, to determine which is the greater, take a look at the achievements and accomplishments- and failures- of the respective Elves to decide who is the greater.
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Old 04-05-2006, 03:44 PM   #169
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To argue against myself (which I have the greatest joy in doing) the statement re Feanor says he was made the greatest of the Eldar, not that he was, at least in the end, actually the greatest. Melkor was originally made the greatest of the Valar, but he subsequently fell from that position through his own actions. The same could be said of Feanor.

Of course, that doesn't clear things up, as Luthien (as I stated earlier) is not technically one of the Eldar (though the Eldar claim her as one of their own). She was half Eldar - half Ainur. Of course she would be 'greater' in terms of sheer power than Feanor, simply due to being half divine. Hence, Tolkien is technically wrong to class her as greatest among the Eldar.

Its equally true to say that Shadowfax is greater among equines than Bill, but we're not comparing like with like, so the comparison is ultimately false. Remove Luthien's divine aspect, (ie put aside those things she could only do due to that divinity) inherited from Melian, compare her to the 'unfallen' Feanor, at the height of his power & who is superior then?

This is my point about taking into account what isn't said as well as what is said & not taking statements (even ones by Tolkien) at face value.
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:49 PM   #170
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What came first the chicken or the egg?

As we can see with the HoME, Tolkien was a niggler. He changed things all the time, can anyone put their hand on their heart and say that Tolkien would have been happy with every sentence of The Silmarillion as published, why do you think he never finished it.
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Old 04-05-2006, 07:12 PM   #171
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When one of you finds the true source of the quote provided from the '77 Silmarillion within HoMe (where we can be assured of its authenticity) and compares the date of that material with the date on The Shibboleth of Feanor, I'd be willing to bet the latter is the later.

Luthien was an Elda by nature. There is no two ways about it, since, having been born an Incarnate, her nature could not have been Maia. She was infused with the blood of an incarnate Maia, yes, but that does not change that she was an Elda. If you want to disqualify her because of her advantage, that's one thing. But to say she's not even an elf is retarded.

As for "fallen" and "unfallen" Feanor, there's no indication that he was any less powerful in his end than he was in his beginning. Elves did not diminish through physical exertion as clothed/incarnate ealar did. The quote supplied by the phantom about Feanor's might was from within the narrative and at a time when Luthien did not yet exist. It therefore does not conflict with Tolkien's later (presumably) note wherein he, as the creator of the mythos, unequivocally states the top three greatest Eldar, side-by-side, and which of the three is the greatest of all. Tolkien is not coyly toying with his reader since this piece was evidently not part of anything he ever expected to be published. Yes, sometimes he messes around and throws things out there only to jerk them back (Gandalf = Manwe?), but in this case his statement bears finality and is never contradicted.

I'm done.
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Old 04-05-2006, 07:58 PM   #172
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Tolkien was wrong, his dad will tell you.

I'd be willing to bet that not everything Tolkien ever wrote has been commited to the published page, things will be released in the future that will either enlighten or confuse. The only books you can quote from are The Hobbit and LotR, the rest was work in progress. Anything in HoME that does not appear in LotR should be discounted, because Tolkien did not use it, and anything published after his death cannot be used 100% as evidence, we do not know if he would have used it or not, yes Tolkien wrote those words, but which version is correct 1940 or 1950. We are just going to have to admit that Tolkien wrote many versions of the same story, of which some are contradictory. Remember it was Christopher Tolkien who released The Silmarillion, if Tolkien was with us still, would he say: But Christopher old chap, you put in the wrong bits. Even in Letters you can see the stories changing with time, a letter written in the 40s, may well have been written differently in the 60s.
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Old 04-05-2006, 08:17 PM   #173
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This list is based on the all of the works we have this far. I don't perceive anything else being published. It is useless to throw out quotes because he may have contradicted them in unpublished writings. This matter is not contradicted by anything else we have, so there's no question - it is the way things were in Middle-earth according to JRR, which is what we're looking for in this thread.
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Old 04-05-2006, 08:30 PM   #174
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What would you think of opening the list up to votes?

My thought is to pick one of the more debated personages, and request nominations, with backing evidence, to be laid out. After the nominations have been collected (and seconded?), I can start a temporary poll thread on that particular personage, and after perhaps a week or two, close the poll and modify the list accordingly.

Or would we prefer just to discuss things and have me make my best fallible conclusions?
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Old 04-05-2006, 09:00 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlemanpoet
What would you think of opening the list up to votes?

My thought is to pick one of the more debated personages, and request nominations, with backing evidence, to be laid out. After the nominations have been collected (and seconded?), I can start a temporary poll thread on that particular personage, and after perhaps a week or two, close the poll and modify the list accordingly.

Or would we prefer just to discuss things and have me make my best fallible conclusions?
Hey, as long as the Witch-King is kept appropriately humble, I think I can keep my mouth shut on the rest.

Sorry to sound snippy above, davem. I've just said all I think can be said on the matter.
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Old 04-05-2006, 09:53 PM   #176
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Two things:

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy
The quote supplied by the phantom about Feanor's might was from within the narrative and at a time when Luthien did not yet exist.
The first tales of Luthien existed in 1917 (BoLT2, p3 (The Tale of Tinuviel)...I believe before Feanor was thought up (or discovered )

Quote:
The only books you can quote from are The Hobbit and LotR, the rest was work in progress.
I think that is far stretch...if we can only quote for the the Hobbit and the LoTR, this is a rather short list with nearly no mention of 1st age elves and not much concerning peoples of the 2nd age......I think although CT did edit the Silmarillion and may have in fact included alternate versions of things (he clearly favors latter versions of the tale of Turin), I wouldn't venture to say that we can't trust anything except that which Tolkien published in his own lifetime...as a perfectionist, Tolkien himself didn't think he was finished with LoTR when he published it, but the publishers were demanding a book...besides, even if Tolkien had the lift of an elf, it is doubtless that his tales would ever be finished entirely as he was always in the process of re-writing...
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Old 04-05-2006, 10:00 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thalion
The first tales of Luthien existed in 1917 (BoLT2, p3 (The Tale of Tinuviel)...I believe before Feanor was thought up (or discovered )
I didn't mean before Luthien was conceived by Tolkien; I meant before she was conceived by her parents.
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Old 04-05-2006, 11:05 PM   #178
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Eye

Quote:
The quote supplied by the phantom about Feanor's might was from within the narrative and at a time when Luthien did not yet exist.
Luthien did exist at the time. She was born when "the glory of Valinor was at its noon", where as the quote is from the passage mentioning Manwe's grief at Melkor's marring of Feanor, after Feanor and the Noldor have set off for Middle Earth.

The quote definitely includes her.

But I don't think the quote necessarily conflicts with the "Luthien is the greatest" quote. As Thalion has brought up more than once, what does "greatest" mean? What did Tolkien have in mind? It is very possible that there are some components such as popularity and renown wrapped up in "greatest".

For instance, it could be said that Star Wars is the greatest movie of the 20th century. Star Wars was absolutely huge! It sold gobs of tickets, mountains of merchandise, and featured cutting edge details and special effects (when it came out). It resulted in five more blockbuster movies, books, comics, fan clubs, toy collections, conventions, and fan websites. No one would argue if someone wrote in a book that Star Wars was the greatest movie force of the century.

However, that does not mean Star Wars, when compared to the other movies in the century, had the best writing, directing, acting, sound, visuals, sets, or anything else. In other words, it doesn't mean that Star Wars was the "best" film.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Tolkien saying Luthien was the "greatest" does not mean that she was more "powerful" or "talented" than Feanor any more than it means that she would beat Feanor in a game of billiards. Tolkien didn't say that. He only said she was the "greatest".

Feanor, on the other hand, got some extremely specific praise.
Quote:
For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive.
That quote is almost too ridiculous to believe. It's overwhelming. It says that the King of Arda, Manwe, is the only one who can even begin to comprehend the things Feanor was capable of. I mean... wow!

All of this next part is a rambling opinion of a sleepy biased phantom, so feel free to ignore it-

I have always gotten the feeling that Feanor was the most powerful/talented/whatever in Tolkien's world, but that Tolkien simply didn't like him as much as Luthien and Galadriel, and so did what he could to put them on level with Feanor. As we know, Luthien was Tolkien's wife, so he obviously favored her, and we've also discussed on this forum Tolkien's increasing Galadriel worship as he aged. This certainly influenced his writings.

From deeds and such it seems clear to me that Feanor was superior, and I think Tolkien knew it. When he wrote the quote I supplied, I think it was a moment when he was reluctantly admitting Feanor's unfathomable power- I don't recall seeing any quote of that magnitude about the others, probably because Tolkien, despite his love for them, couldn't bring himself to write things that were distorted beyond the normal amount of author bias.

When you consider Tolkien's feelings towards Luthien and Galadriel, I think it is not just likely, but a guarantee, that he favored them more than he should have in some of his writing. Anyone who has ever written stories or RPGed much can certainly understand this point. If a character within your story sort of represents you or a dear friend, you tend to give them more credit than they really should have.
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:35 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legolas
This list is based on the all of the works we have this far. I don't perceive anything else being published. It is useless to throw out quotes because he may have contradicted them in unpublished writings. This matter is not contradicted by anything else we have, so there's no question - it is the way things were in Middle-earth according to JRR, which is what we're looking for in this thread.
New Tolkien material is being published all the time in Vinyar Tengwar, so we can't say that there is no 'new' material out there which may alter our perceptions of the Legendarium. Osanwe Kenta for instance is a major (though short) work which definitely should have been included in HoM-e. CT for his own reasons left it out. Again, CT has edited HoM-e, and any final word on date of writing, relevance, what's included & what's left out was his.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obloquy

Luthien was an Elda by nature. There is no two ways about it, since, having been born an Incarnate, her nature could not have been Maia. She was infused with the blood of an incarnate Maia, yes, but that does not change that she was an Elda. If you want to disqualify her because of her advantage, that's one thing. But to say she's not even an elf is retarded.
The fact that she had the blood of an incarnate Maia surely makes her more than an Elf. Luthien is unique. She is not pure Eldar. In fact she makes me think of figures like Merlin, Achilles, Cuchulllain (or Jesus) who have one 'human' & one divine parent. These beings, in myth & reality (if you are a believer) are children of this world & the otherworld, & play a very specific role in myth of linking the two worlds & providing a kind of living 'bridge' between them.

I didn't say she wasn't 'even an Elf', I said she was far more than an Elf, & so Feanor cannot be fairly compared with her.


Quote:
As for "fallen" and "unfallen" Feanor, there's no indication that he was any less powerful in his end than he was in his beginning. Elves did not diminish through physical exertion as clothed/incarnate ealar did. The quote supplied by the phantom about Feanor's might was from within the narrative and at a time when Luthien did not yet exist. It therefore does not conflict with Tolkien's later (presumably) note wherein he, as the creator of the mythos, unequivocally states the top three greatest Eldar, side-by-side, and which of the three is the greatest of all. Tolkien is not coyly toying with his reader since this piece was evidently not part of anything he ever expected to be published. Yes, sometimes he messes around and throws things out there only to jerk them back (Gandalf = Manwe?), but in this case his statement bears finality and is never contradicted.

I'm done.
Sorry, but you're still avoiding the central question - which is what did Tolkien mean when he used 'greatest' in this specific context. Luthien was clearly not greater than Feanor in every way - she was not a 'greater' warrior, she was not a 'greater' creative artist, She was not a 'greater' disaster, her ego was not 'greater', she was not physically 'greater' in terms of height or girth. Greatest in what sense is still the issue. And who is supposed to have written these quotes (within the Legendarium)? One could see one of the descendents of Feanor or one of their people (one of the Elves of Eregion for instance) producing the statement that Feanor was the 'greatest' of the Eldar, while one of the Elves of Rivendell produced the statement that Luthien was the 'greatest'.

Assuming we're dealing with the figure of 'Tolkien the Translator' being the source of this particular essay we can only say that having read all the available texts (principally the Red Book) he would have formed his own personal & possibly biassed opinion, & opinion cannot be treated as 'fact'.
Quote:
but in this case his statement bears finality and is never contradicted.
No, all we can say is that he died before he could change his mind. Looking at the way Tolkien changed his mind back & forth we can only talk about any statement of his being his 'last' one not his 'final' one. I suspect when we all get to finally meet up with him his (at that time current) Legendarium will not correspond with what he has left us. It may be slightly or very different, but for certain I'm betting it will not be in any sense 'final'.
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Old 04-06-2006, 03:30 AM   #180
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What a Carry On

I was not saying that we should pack up and go home, we should carry on as normal, however I state again, quoting from anything not published during Tolkiens lifetime cannot be done with absolute certainty. A lot of arguments go back and forth until they descend into bickering, and then things get a bit heated. I just wanted to say that quoting from HoME can be very dangerous, some people may think that its the truth, in the same way the films have muddied the waters. As I said before, try to keep in mind when quoting anything:

1. Was this Tolkiens final word on the matter, ie: was it published whilst alive.

2. Are there any other versions that may contradict the matter.

3. Are there any other statements that may contradict the matter.

The reason I put number three in is because I would ask you, Who is the most beautiful of the Children of Iluvatar?

Tolkien states on one hand that Feanor is, then he says that Luthien is. Then there are other statements:

1. For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar.

2. Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and wise of heart.

3. Galadriel, most beautiful of all the house of Finwe..

How many contradictions are there in that lot.

Carry On Quoting.
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Old 04-06-2006, 05:10 AM   #181
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Was this Tolkiens final word on the matter, ie: was it published whilst alive.
Of course, as we see with both TH & LotR Tolkien wasn't averse to altering even his published works for subsequent editions. Plus if we take into account the changes made to the published works since his death (between 300 - 400 changes to the text in the recent 50th anniversary edition of LotR) we seem to be on very shaky ground even with the works published during his lifetime.
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:11 AM   #182
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I can see the Four Horsemen of Canonicity approaching over the horizon...

I think what this illustrates is just how difficult it is to make any kind of objective judgement on 'power' or 'strength'. Putting aside what we would define as powerful ourselves, from what we interpret to be 'powerful' in Arda, we sometimes have no clear primary source to draw on. Tolkien's books are layered and complex, way beyond the complexity of just having lots of characters and places and storylines; they are complex because he has given an illusion of reality through having the translator conceit and rewriting versions of his work.

Maybe the arguing is all part of what he hoped might happen? Have we thought of that?
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:28 AM   #183
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The translator conceit is one that Tolkien put into the work in order to create a feigned reality. That he succeeded is proved by how similar our discussing behavior is to that of theologians and historians. At the risk of seeming heresy, as the theologians who discuss the Christian Bible acknowledge one Author, so must we. Thus the translator conceit is a level of complexity, in fact a kind of game, that doesn't necessarily obtain for the purposes of this thread.
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Old 04-06-2006, 10:56 AM   #184
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The translator conceit is one that Tolkien put into the work in order to create a feigned reality. That he succeeded is proved by how similar our discussing behavior is to that of theologians and historians. At the risk of seeming heresy, as the theologians who discuss the Christian Bible acknowledge one Author, so must we. Thus the translator conceit is a level of complexity, in fact a kind of game, that doesn't necessarily obtain for the purposes of this thread.
So are you saying we should discount any qualitative statements Tolkien makes, or that we should take them all into account - even when they contradict each other?

And I'd say that the TC cannot be left out of any analysis of the Legendarium. Its far more than merely a 'kind of game' - unless you conside sub creation as a whole a kind of 'game'.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:28 AM   #185
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I can see the Four Horsemen of Canonicity approaching over the horizon...
Saucepan neatly sidesteps one gaping can of worms and promptly falls into another ...

As regards the Feanor debate, I would repeat a question that I posed (and comment that I made) earlier:

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Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
Does "power" include self-control? If so, Feanor should definately be lower. Turin too, probably.
Feanor's talents in many fields are undoubted. It is clear that he was an immensely powerful chap. But it also cannot be denied that he was incredibly lacking when it came to self-restraint. There are many examples of the adverse consequences, for himself and his kin, of his feiry hot headedness. The question is whether this simply represents a misuse of his undoubted power, or whether it in itself diminishes his power.

I am not talking here in terms of his morality and the negative consequences of this for others. Although a number of his deeds were of dubious morality, that in itself is not a reason to move him down the "power list", as it does not seem that we are holding the moral failings of Morgoth and Sauron against them. What I am considering is how his failings negatively impacted upon himself and his family. His Oath blighted his life and the lives of his sons. His rash pursuit of Morgoth led to his premature demise. These were consequences of his very nature, not simply the manifestations of his power. So can it not be said that, taken as a whole, his "power level" is diminished by his impetuous and hot-headed nature?

There are others, Luthien and Galadriel included, who, while lacking in his raw power, chose their courses of action more carefully, and in a more measured way. In many ways, perhaps, they were wiser. Should this not be considered as an aspect of "power"?
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:17 PM   #186
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There are others, Luthien and Galadriel included, who, while lacking in his raw power, chose their courses of action more carefully, and in a more measured way.
I think by going down this route you will be "knocking down a peg" a lot of Elves...first and foremost practically ever Noldor, or at least all those who followed Feanor...even Galadriel we are given at times to believe left Valinor because of her loath for Feanor and a desire to make sure he failed in his quest in Middle Earth (although thats simply this person's interpretation...I have a feeling, that it will still much contention)...and Fingolfin "rashly" charged to the gates of Angband...Fingon allowed his troops to move forward against the hosts of Angband too soon when Gwindor charged first...Thingol 'forces' Beren to go to Angband to get a Silmarill for his daughters hand...all of these cases (and more) can be considered rash decisions or more biased towards personal feeling or without much thought put into them...
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:27 PM   #187
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The translator conceit is one that Tolkien put into the work in order to create a feigned reality..... in fact a kind of game, that doesn't necessarily obtain for the purposes of this thread.
If we are quantifying the qualities of the players, then the realization of the reality has to be a given. If the reality is feigned, then so is the list.

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One could see one of the descendents of Feanor or one of their people ....producing the statement that Feanor was the 'greatest' of the Eldar, while one of the Elves of Rivendell produced the statement that Luthien was the 'greatest'
here is the rub that is presented, in terms of TC. Especially if one considers that much (or most) of the original history to have come from prose or song, then translated (and translated again and again etc.), one can easily get mixed messages as to who is "greatest". Or, ranking the "greatness". If I am a poet or a songsmith being commisioned by the House of Fingon, or the Court of Cirdan, the Family of Gil-Galad, you better believe I am going to ensure my sire is getting his/her's money's worth. Praise will gush forth in abundance. Subjectivity will be a casualty of convenience.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:29 PM   #188
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Another point regarding the "rash" business....

LMP started this thread with a "who could whup whom?" sort of idea in mind. And while he's since taken more into account than mere physical strength/power, one should probably still keep in mind that "greatest" as being measured on this list, is ultimately "who could whup whom".

Fëanor, in my opinion, could probably "whup" either Lúthien or Galadriel- either physically, or in terms of persuasiveness and force of will. Or, at least, he'd probably be the best at it of the three. I don't think that he could actually persuade or dominate either Lúthien or Galadriel- but neither could either of them do the same to him.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:51 PM   #189
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Especially if one considers that much (or most) of the original history to have come from prose or song, then translated (and translated again and again etc.), one can easily get mixed messages as to who is "greatest".
The problem with this argument is that in reality, the stories WERE NOT PASSED DOWN...Tolkien, for as much as he claimed to have "discovered" elements of his tales and to have been working on how they came to be in existence today when the history was supposed to take place years and years ago, created every story that we have from his own mind... he may have made revisions, but one can hardly consider that as the same as passing down stories from generations to generations...and again...Tolkien, as a philologist, choose his words carefully...since he was ulitmately the one writing the "final" stories as we would see them (or as he was working on them to become final) he wasn't restrained to believe whatever a past "story teller" communicated to him...

...as much as Tolkien wanted a mythology that incorporated elements of many of the tales we have today in various cultures, we must remember that his works didn't actually form the trunk from which all these various branches with similar elements came from...therefore, the work of this one man is what we are to consider...
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Old 04-06-2006, 01:01 PM   #190
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A Thing Called Love

Everything cannot be won by brute strength and willpower alone, how powerful is beauty and love. This may go off track a bit, but listen to Johnny Cash sing A Thing Called Love, I know it is only a song but the sentiment is there. Who decrees with what and how someone can 'whup' another, Luthien may have had Feanor eating out of her hand, if the sight of her could enflame lust in one of the most powerful beings in Arda, then I am afraid Feanor could have been vunerable to. We know that Feanor suffered from Greed, Jealousy and Pride, surely this is proof of some weakness of his mind.
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Old 04-06-2006, 01:15 PM   #191
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the same as passing down stories from generations to generations....
I wasnt implying "generations" (these were elves after all), I was implying possibly 3-4 levels. This is all off topic (sorry LMP). An example could be:
prose (original) / history (TC)
narrative (TC)
translation (from elvish to "westron" - Bilbo/Frodo)
and again translated from "westron" to early english (Aelfwine).
Or, any other combination. Granted, the effect may work only for me, and I tip my hat to the author. My point wasnt particularly TC, but the "commissioned artist's Conciet" of the subject.

Quote:
and again...Tolkien, as a philologist, choose his words carefully...since he was ulitmately the one writing the "final" stories as we would see them (or as he was working on them to become final) he wasn't restrained to believe whatever a past "story teller" communicated to him..
I would say that history, as written by different authors of different races and cultures, spanning ages lost long ago, was exactly the point of the works. And if you really subscribe to the above idea, then only TH and LotR are the only sources you can refer to in building a list, as those were the published works that were considered "final" by the author.

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Old 04-06-2006, 02:10 PM   #192
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There are others, Luthien and Galadriel included, who, while lacking in his raw power...
There's no need to go further than that, Sauce. I think raw power is what we're looking for, not virtues.

lmp, since this is your thread why don't you tell me, would a good description of what you are looking for be sheer amount of knowledge, strength of will, number of skills, strength of skills, ability to impact mind and matter, and ability in battle?

Not to mention, SPM, that Luthien was rash as well. She disobeyed her father and left the safety of Doriath to chase Beren, and almost paid dearly for her actions (Celegorm and Curufin).

Everyone acts unwisely under extreme circumstances, and Feanor's were arguably the worst any elf ever faced. He loved his father more than any son loved his father, he created the greatest work of skill ever- the Silmarils, and both his father and the Silmarils were stolen from him in a single day. That, coupled with Morgoth's efforts to corrupt him, was more than an elf could handle. After all, the Valar themselves told the Noldor as they left that they did not have the power to contest with Morgoth. If true, then surely there was no way Feanor could've remained unaffected by Morgoth's attempts to corrupt him, especially when you consider that marring Feanor was Morgoth's primary goal.

Morgoth was the most powerful being ever created by Eru, and so I find it difficult to hold the unfortunate events that followed against Feanor as much as many of my fellow Downers do. In my opinion, Feanor's fall was inevitable the instant the Valar allowed Morgoth to roam free and Morgoth resolved to ruin Feanor.
Quote:
Fëanor, in my opinion, could probably "whup" either Lúthien or Galadriel- either physically, or in terms of persuasiveness and force of will. Or, at least, he'd probably be the best at it of the three.
I agree.
Quote:
Luthien may have had Feanor eating out of her hand, if the sight of her could enflame lust in one of the most powerful beings in Arda, then I am afraid Feanor could have been vunerable to.
I doubt Feanor would be as vulnerable as Morgoth in this area. Feanor seems to love above all else things that were of himself- his father, his sons, and his crafts. If he had molded and sculpted Luthien from stone and she then came to life, I can imagine he would have quite a bit of love for her, but even then I doubt she'd have him eating out of her hand. He wasn't the sort to allow someone else to master him. Not to mention he already had a wife, and elves are by their nature not prone to straying.
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:21 PM   #193
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Yes, normally the Elves were faithful, but it seems Fëanor was susceptible in that area - not to Lúthien, but to Galadriel. "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in UT relates his request for her hair as a keepsake (trophy?). Apparently it became his inspiration for the Silmarils.

Sorry if that was wandering too far, but there are some interesting thoughts about those characters in that chapter.
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:25 PM   #194
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Another thing to note about Fëanor and women in general is that he loved his wife Nerdanel dearly- at least in the beginning. As evidence one can relate a few pertinent passages from the Shibboleth, as well as the physical evidence of Seven Sons.

However, it is also said of Fëanor, that he took the advice of few- only his wife Nerdanel, and then but only for a little while.

Fëanor was, from what evidence we have, initially in love with Nerdanel, but as time went on, this love soured. His only true, abiding passions were for his father, his sons, and his Silmarils.

Esty makes a good point about Galadriel, but I would still be inclined to think that her hold over him, had she wanted one, would have been more of a temporary one, likely to dissipate over time.
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Old 04-06-2006, 03:05 PM   #195
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The problem with this argument is that in reality, the stories WERE NOT PASSED DOWN...Tolkien, for as much as he claimed to have "discovered" elements of his tales and to have been working on how they came to be in existence today when the history was supposed to take place years and years ago, created every story that we have from his own mind... he may have made revisions, but one can hardly consider that as the same as passing down stories from generations to generations...and again...Tolkien, as a philologist, choose his words carefully...since he was ulitmately the one writing the "final" stories as we would see them (or as he was working on them to become final) he wasn't restrained to believe whatever a past "story teller" communicated to him...
I think the point is that the TC was a central concept for Tolkien. As far back as the BoLT a primary concern was not simply the stories themselves but the means by which those stories had survived, had been transmitted from the time of the events they recorded down to the time he himself translated them for a modern readership. His model, as Flieger shows in 'Interrupted Music' was the ancient texts like the Mabinogion (taken from the Red Book of Hergest among others - & that title being the same as the one he gave Bilbo's work is probably not a coincidence). Ancient stories survived down through time in place names, manuscripts, folklore & songs, as we know, but most importantly they survived in varying versions, many of which were contradictory.

It is this illusion of verisimilitude which Tolkien strove to create in order to bring a sense of 'reality' to the stories of the Legendarium. A careful reading of LotR, for instance, will reveal that there are various 'styles' incorporated in that work (the passages referring to the Rohirrim for example are full of alliteration) this gives a sense that LotR is a 'compendium' (there's also a mention in the text of 'Findegil the King's scribe' who is one in a series of 'compilers/redactors' in a long sequence of transmission).

Moving on to the Notion Club Papers we see Tolkien trying a different method of transmission - psychic(memory) & physical (reincarnation).

The cetral importance of this aspect for Tolkien can be seen in the very fact that he introduces himself into the Legendarium as 'translator'. He 'appears' in the story both in the Prologue & in Appendix F. This both makes him part of the secondary world he has created &, paradoxically, separates him from it in that he becomes not the maker of the stories but merely the last one who passes them on. So they become not Tolkien's mythology, but England's. He's effectively saying 'This is not my my mythology, its ours. So, as Flieger has so effectively shown, there have to be 'discrepancies', 'contradictions' in the text. These don't make the Legendarium less 'believable' as Myth, but actually more so, because they make it just like the genuine myth/legend cycles we have.

In short, the contradictions are inevitable, necessary & most importantly deliberate. Think of all the named writers, loremasters & bards within the Legendarium. These are individuals, producing their own works, which are collated & passed on by others.
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Old 04-06-2006, 06:16 PM   #196
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There's no need to go further than that, Sauce. I think raw power is what we're looking for, not virtues.
As I said, I am not talking about morality or virtue here, but innate qualities and failings.

Although the list may have started out as "who could whup whom", lmp when pressed accepted that we are looking here at qualities other than "raw power", in terms of physical strength. And, if that is the case, I do not see why an innate mental weakness such as Feanor's rash nature should not be taken into account in the same way that we would take an innate physical weakness into account.

It depends, I suppose, on exactly what we mean by "power". But, if we are looking at a character in the round and considering spiritual and mental, as well as physical, strength, then surely Feanor's mental weakness, his rash and hot-headed nature, must be taken into account. It hampered his ability best to achieve what he wanted to achieve and was therefore something that weakened his overall "power" in the broadest sense.

The fact that Morgoth "targetted" him is a fair point, but there must have been some mental weakness there for him to have fallen for it in such a big way. Indeed, that was no doubt one of the main reasons why Morgoth identified him as a means to further his plans. Morgoth was, in effect, playing to Feanor's weaknesses.

And while it is true that a similar failings may be seen in a number of other characters, particularly other Noldor, in no one was it as pronounced, or indeed as influential, as in Feanor. And to the extent that other characters show similar mental weaknesses, then these should be taken into consideration when assessing, in broad terms, their "power". Turin is, I think, a good example here.

And one final point. Even if we are just looking at "who could whup whom", Feanor's mental wekaness still plays a role. It is something that a clever foe, perhaps one such as Galadriel, would have been able to use against him.
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:08 PM   #197
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Where are you getting this that Feanor is mentally weak, Sauce? That's one of those things that always gets thrown around about him because it sounds good. But in reality, from what I've read, he was rather strong mentally.

Are you saying he was weak because he was influenced by Melkor? That's hardly good reasoning. That's like saying the strongest man in the world is physically weak because he can't lift a mountain.

The two trees were the most amazing of the Valar's works, so Melkor resolved to destroy them. The Silmarils were the most amazing of the Elves' works, so Melkor resolved to steal them. Feanor was the most amazing Elf, so Melkor resolved to mar him. It's as simple as that. Only the Valar could have prevented Melkor from achieving his goals. Only they had the power.

But instead of hindering Melkor, they helped him by giving Feanor a punishment (temporary banishment from Tuna) that, as Tolkien said, made the lies of Melkor appear to be true. Given the fact that the only beings powerful enough to undo Melkor's lies instead increased them, is it any wonder Feanor remained stained by Melkor, and that his father's death at Melkor's hands and the theft of his treasure pushed him over the edge?

The circumstances of Feanor's fall were extreme. His fall was the result of a precise series of awful events orchestrated (in Melkor's case) or at least not stopped (in the Valar's case) by beings with greater power than his own. And the fact is, Feanor's fall had to happen in such a way, because he was not weak willed or weak minded. Only events exactly as they happened could have broken him.
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Old 04-06-2006, 07:43 PM   #198
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So are you saying we should discount any qualitative statements Tolkien makes, or that we should take them all into account - even when they contradict each other?

And I'd say that the TC cannot be left out of any analysis of the Legendarium. Its far more than merely a 'kind of game' - unless you conside sub creation as a whole a kind of 'game'.
Of what use is it in this "relative powers" game?
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Old 04-07-2006, 02:06 AM   #199
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Of what use is it in this "relative powers" game?
When people start using quotes from the works to justify who goes where in the hierarchy we have to analyse those quotes to see who says those things, what they say, why they say it & what they leave out.

Overall The Sil has an anti-Feanorian bias (being, one could speculate, due to the fact that Bilbo, the principal compiler of the Red Book, used sources of information, both living & written, that he found in Rivendell). So, the Feanoreans look bad in the Legends.

Take Celegorm & Curufin's attack on Beren & Luthien - who wrote that is important because the writer attributes various motives to C&C which may or may not have been true.

Or take Feanor. Was Feanor's story written as 'journalism' or as 'tragedy'? If SpM is correct that a characters moral/psychological strengths & weaknesses play a part in how we judge their innate 'power' (& thus where they belong in the hierarchy) then we have to ask 'Who's writing the report? Are they dependable - have they recieved full psychoanalytical training? Or we're they producing a work of moral didacticism, which may have little relation to actual events?'

One final point - if the Elves (as stated in Ainulindale) are bound by the Music as by Fate, then can we consider any of their actions to be 'courageous'? Wouldn't they only be able to follow the 'program'? Also, wouldn't it take greater courage for Men (who have no idea of their post-mortem state - or indeed whether they have any) to lay down their lives than for Elves (who know exactly what will happen to them) to do so?

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Old 04-07-2006, 10:23 AM   #200
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Where are you getting this that Feanor is mentally weak, Sauce?
I never said that Feanor was mentally weak. I said that he had a mental weakness which should be taken into account when assessing his relative power.

But you concerted defence of him does illustrate another problem inherent in trying to come up with this kind of a list. It will always, as far as certain characters are concerned, be highly objective. Lmp recognises this and so retains for himself the final word. But there will always be disagreement over the placing of favourite characters.

One further point that has been bothering me. Why are Radagast and the Blue Wizards so low? They were Maiar, albeit subject to the restrictions imposed upon the Istari. As such, they should be an a par (if slightly lower, perhaps) than Saruman the White and Gandalf the Grey. They may not have used their power to great effect in the overall scheme of things, but they would undoubtedly have had a similar "level" of power.

And are Aiwendil, Alatar and Pallando on the list? I don't recall them being there. If they are not, they should be placed similarly, relative to Olorin and Curumo.
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