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04-24-2004, 05:18 PM | #1 |
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Originality in fantasy Post-Tolkien
Alright. Is it just me, or do most fantasy/sci-fi (emphasis on the fantasy though) books seem to copy Tolkien in some form or another? Mind you, I love the basic idea....the unassuming underdog undergoes (hee hee! alliteration! ) Herculean trials and emerges stronger than any thought possible and Voila! the day is saved! It's simply classic and I love to rehash things that I already like.
I remember that one of the first books I read after finishing the trilogy for the first time was Terry Brooks' The Sword of Shannara. It was a wonderful book, and his style reminds me somewhat of Tolkien, only less cryptic if you know what I mean. But from the very first chapter, it's impossible to escape the fact that the plot is almost identical to LOTR. Brooks is imaginative in creating his own world, which although similar, is still different in key ways, such as his portrayal of elves, dwarves, humans, and the like. His later books in the series branch off into different (although all with an underlying theme that is nearly the same) storylines and plots and his other series, such as A Knight of the Word are completely different from his Shannara series and in another world altogether from Tolkien's work. I was just wondering what other people think about this; do books nowadays seem only to remake what's already been done by Tolkien? Or are they just doing what's been done for thousands of years? And also, what books have you read that are similar to Tolkien's work and what are entirely new or groundbreaking as far as the fantasy genre goes? |
04-24-2004, 07:22 PM | #2 |
Haunting Spirit
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I havn't personally read "The Sword of Shannara," but my brother is and he says that it is very much like "The Lord of the Rings." The only thing that is different is that Shannara has more books than LotR.
I can't think of any series that I have read with almost the exact plot line as LotR, but one thing I have noticed is that a lot of people like to knock LotR and some have even gone to the length of writing books that make fun of LotR. Not to stray from the original subject too much, but my dad owns a copy of "Bored of the Rings." I have half a mind to read it, but I'm still thinking...
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04-24-2004, 11:55 PM | #3 | ||
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I don't know if this topic has done but I'm going to answer just because this particular issue is a sore spot with me.
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Sometimes, when I read these sort of threads (nothing against you Lumiel), it seems as if people view Tolkien as the king of all fantasy -- and that's simply not true. It's illogical to say that Tolkien is the accumulation of the fantasy genre and that anything written is a mere rehash and rip off. That would be denying the uniqueness and creativity of human nature. Of course Tolkien was a major turning stone in the fantasy genre. So was Shakespeare. Shakespeare coined many words -- is it wrong to use them? Tolkien helped build the fantasy genre. He gave a new and better definition to elves. Why not use it? That would be like ignoring mechanical advances because they were built on someone else's shoulders. Yes, there are some shameful copies. But there are only a few. The Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander, The Chronicles of Narnia, George MacDonald (was he before or after Tolkien?) and many others are not rip offs -- yet they are fantasy.
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04-25-2004, 08:00 AM | #4 |
Wight
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I really disagree with you about the Chronicles of Narnia being a copy of Tolkien's work. Lewis and Tolkien for one were contemporaries. Not to mention that one is geared for an older audience while the other is geared for children. Why do you think the CoN are copies of Tolkien's work?
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04-25-2004, 09:19 AM | #5 | |
Tears of the Phoenix
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You misread me:
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Cheers, Imladris
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04-25-2004, 11:44 AM | #6 |
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I'm sorry. I'll pay closer attention in the future. Thanks for correcting me.
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04-25-2004, 02:54 PM | #7 |
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I agree with Imladris on this topic, Lumiel, but I would like to elaborate a little on it.
It amazes me sometimes how much is in Tolkien's writings of Middle Earth. Whenever I sit down to read or write, even when it comes to reading the Bible, I find things that resemble Tolkien. I see character and place names that seem familiar and countless events that are parallel to those of Tolkien. I don't think it's necessarily the fact that writers want to copy Tolkien, it's just the fact that it's hard to write anything that doesn't resemble it in some way. Tolkien's stories have so many plot lines within plot lines and so many events that happen, that it's hard to find an event that Tolkien did not write about. I have found that the Lord of the Rings itself is packed with just about every type of incident and character type possible. Take the movie "A Beautiful Mind", for instance. You could take Russell Crowe's character and say that the writers were copying Gollum by making the character Skitzo. That's one of the less defining examples there, but it's all I could come up with at the time. My point is that yes, some writers for some reason are cynical and feel a need to copy and criticize Tolkien, but most do not. Many are just stuck in a rut, whether they know it or not, of not being able to write a story that does not veer towards Tolkien. Tolkien was a very good and broad writer. Sadly, he has made it hard on all of rising writers to be creative in our works. That's just how it is. |
04-25-2004, 03:18 PM | #8 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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It's true that many of the fantasy stories written after LotR are similiar, but I thinks it's unevitable that authors get inspired by Tolkiens world. They're not copying (well, there are those who do) and I think they deserve full respect for they're work, which is unique for them. OK, they borrow some stuff from the master himself, mr JRRT, but almost every book ever written is similiar to something else. To say that all fantasy-writers are copying Tolkien is like saying that every story copies from the great ancient play-writers that made masterpieces like The Oddysée (is it spelled like that in Eng. ?) or Oidiphus etc etc... Just my opinion
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04-25-2004, 09:26 PM | #9 |
Fair and Cold
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To elaborate on something Imladris already mentioned: there is nothing new under the sun. The challenge that writers face, in whatever they write, is in taking something familiar and making it their own, and making it readable, clever, fun, deep, you name it.
For example, you can take "The Wasteland" and chew out Eliot for just clumping together a bunch of references to other writers and peppering the whole thing with a little Modernist gloom and doom. That would be missing the point. Of course Eliot was playing off his predecessors, but "The Wasteland" is deeper than that, because it makes you think of things in a new way; it touches you in a new way; it it rattles and excites and horrifies you in a new way. The somebody like Adrienne Rich comes along and is clearly influenced by "The Wasteland" and Eliot's other works, but, through the strength of her talent, has something new to add. This, I believe, is evident in pre- and post-Tolkien movements in literature, with many different evolving themes intersecting. The results are usually worthless (at least, in my not so humble opinion), but that has more to do with the fact that most literature is worthless in general. Yet there is always that smattering of books that are worth your time; these are the books that, according to Vladimir Nabokov's rule of thumb regarding "great" literature, cannot be read, they can only be re-read. As the Danielle Steeles of the world get richer, there are still writers out there who produce awesome, important stuff that our grandkids will hopefully be reading (unless, um, we destroy the world 'till then, but I try to be optimistic). And I would gladly place J.K. Rowling into that pile of authors that saw some things in Tolkien they could play off of and did it wiith style, grace, and a good sense of humour no less.
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04-25-2004, 09:38 PM | #10 |
Wight
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Okay, guys, here's a suggestion: read Diana Wynne Jones' TOUGH GUIDE TO FANTASYLAND. Very funny, and it has a great dig at all the cliches in fantasy. Stew. Inns. The red-haired big-breasted villainess. And so on.
What's really a shame is that people often accuse Tolkien of cliches when he did some things that are now standard in fantasy before they became cliches. If Sword of Shanarra looks familiar, it's because the publishers commissioned Terry Brooks to write a Tolkien-style book. It was a cash-in. I remember buying the book when it first came out and throwing it across the room in fury. I couldn't finish it. I'm a minority, of course; he's been wildly successful for 20 years. Oh, and read Bored of the Rings - it's great fun and quite affectionate. It's a classic. Yes, there is indeed a common source for *good* fantasy, but, guys, there are also a lot of rip-offs out there and nothing is more likely to put me off than reading a rave on a book cover comparing it with Tolkien. I love fantasy, but I like it individual. Barbara Hambly. Jennifer Fallon. George R.R.Martin. Guy Gavriel Kay. Diana Wynne Jones - the list goes on. None of them has to imitate. If you have read a lot, you should be able to discern the difference between common sources and rip-off. Good characters you can care about - that's what makes the difference. Tolkien knew that, but so does any good fantasy writer. |
04-26-2004, 01:26 AM | #11 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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being in general agreement with the "no new story under the sun" line, I nevertheless, would refute:
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04-26-2004, 05:17 AM | #12 |
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Agree, but disagree
I think inclusion of dwarves, elves, wizards and goblins are what make fantasy fantasy, and therefore can't count as ripoffs, because without them it wouldn't be fantasy anyway . . . I do see a lot of characters and themes based on them repeated.
For starters, dwarves are always depicted as greedy, grumpy, gruff little guys. The very idea of dwarves is short, bearded, tool wielding men who mine underground . . . The very idea of elves are forest dwellers with pointy ears, although graceful, spirtual and godly creatures are pretty LOTR driven . . . The epic quest theme is what I think is repeated too often. There's almost always a symbolic heirloom, a dark tyrant and a journey that lasts forever. What somebody needs to do, is set other genres in a fantasy setting, like a psychological thriller about a dragon-slayer, or a vigilante story about a band of werewolves . . . or the troubles of a some sociopaths who just happen to be vampire hunters . . . or even make a fantasy into a drastic allegorical satire of society (which Tolkien adamantly was not doing, but somebody really should go for it, with that in mind).
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04-26-2004, 05:39 AM | #13 |
Deadnight Chanter
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To Keeper:
But the very ideas you depict as necessary for fantasy, are very indo-european, or even narrower, European ideas (or archetypes, as some prefer to put it ) But for Tolkien (and overflowing stream of his followers), they would presumably remain European folk lore. Now, what we have throughout the world, they are becoming universal ideas. And universal as Tolkien gave them - elves tall, star-eyed noble people, and fair number of other cliches too. If you look through the list of our members, you'll find that a lot of them is from Malaysia, Indonesia or elsewhere which do not have the background you seem to look at so obvious adn natural. Not to go very far, I for myself may be quite a good exapmle. Georgian mythos in no way has bearded dwarves or star-eyed elves, yet I'm affected to the extent that concept of bearded short guy under the mountain is my own already. I recognize archetypes which would have been blank for my grandfather thanks to Tolkien, and him mostly. (BTW, That is why it is so hard to translate Tolkien into non European languages, for Germans, Dutch and Norwegians take some conventions for granted which would look just very strange for Japanese (assuming he/she never heard of Tolkien, or read it in his adulthood with no previous hint as of European mythos) And even with his enormous popularity, Tolkien is often giving way to newly born American urban mythos, which is, may I say so, mightily exported from USA along with the general culture export taking place this last fifty years (ah, Hollywood) - with lot of 'man' suffixed epic heroes (i.e Spiderman, Superman etc) But for Tolkien (not position arguable, but merely strong feeling on my part nevertheless), those would become universal ideas instead, and for all their value, for me it would be a sad thing
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04-26-2004, 07:07 AM | #14 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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Good point, I think, HI, to point out that Tolkien worked specifically within European traditions of myth to create his fantasy. This makes me wonder what forms of fantasy, if any, exist in other cultures that might not have been influenced (at least until recently) by Tolkien. Can it be said that the genre of fantasy exists in, say, Chinese, Japanese and Indian literatures?
There is also another way to think about this comment from Keeper, which perhaps reflects much of the thought here that the 'content' or type of characters is what marks fantasy: Quote:
Quote:
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04-26-2004, 08:39 AM | #15 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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This tradition doesn't realy exist in Europe outside of Spain, but in Spain and Latin America the genre of magic-realism has been their "fantasy" for aaages. So fantasy, as you quoted, doesn't need Elves etc to be fantasy...it just needs to have a spark of the extra-ordinary (aka, fantastci).
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04-26-2004, 05:45 PM | #16 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I am an aspiring writer, and have been for years, and I just recently had an original idea that does not copy Tolkien. But even looking at my notes now, I can see how Tolkien has influenced me on a subconcious level.
It has been a struggle to stay away from the Lord of the Rings fantasy world, and I can see how many authors can slip, or even cash in on the popularity of that sort of setting. That happened recently with a book I shall not name for fear of being flamed. But it has more direct relations to Tolkien's respective works than I have ever see. I get so angry with that peice of work.
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04-26-2004, 05:45 PM | #17 |
Wight
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I am a writer, and I began writing long before I read LOTR, but after reading it, I found that many of my short stories had Tolkien-ish elements when I revisited them. I hadn't read that much fantasy (especially fantasy written after Tolkien), but I had read classical stories such as The Odyssey and bits of Beowulf. Tolkien did borrow shamelessly, but he mixed these elements together in such a way that it made something so unique and different it is a classic work in its self.
I had to take a seriously long break in my novel after reading LOTR because I would unconsciously put an Aragorn or Gimli character into it. When a writer sits down to write, everything they've ever experienced, felt, read, or been around is game to be but down on paper (or screen). To consciously block anything out takes a lot of effort. Yes, a lot of writers purposefully copy Tolkien. Brooks's Sword of Shannara is a good book, but it is really really close to being the same as LOTR. (If you love LOTR, please don't read the book; you may end up having a screaming arguement at the book!!!) Yes, there really aren't that many different plots, or for that matter, types of characters. Most writers who have any self respect try their best to be original. But a lot of them, whether they know it or not, borrow from the same classical works as Tolkien did; or they may copy directly from Tolkien because LOTR is their favorite book, they just haven't read it in years or just forgot all the juicy details we all love. Whether fantasy or not, all writer's try to be original and different; but with such a great epic work as Tolkien, in the last fifty years it has been hard to be original compared to the Master of Fantasy.
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04-26-2004, 06:05 PM | #18 |
Fair and Cold
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Keeper, your definition of fantasy is narrower than Paris Hilton's waist (for all of you living under a rock, that's pretty durn narrow).
Oh, and as much as I believe in the whole "nothing new under the sun" notion, there is still a lot of fantasy out there that a) Wasn't one of the sources Tolkien drew on for his stuff and/or b) Wasn't revolutionized by the advent of Tolkien. Try Russian folklore, an area that was virtually inaccessible to Western scholars even as the world began to grow small in the past century (thank you, Uncle Stalin). Check out, for example, the myth of the wise grey wolf and compare it to Tolkien's vicious wargs. See, the basic building blocks are usually the same, but stories are interpreted and re-interpreted over time. And that's interesting.
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04-26-2004, 08:24 PM | #19 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Have any of you read the Xanth series by Piers Anthony? They are a quite good (in my mind) series of fantasy novels. They are in no way similar to Tolkien, and I find that quite refreshing after having seen novels like Eragon in which there are so many Middle-earth related names it's insane. Another good set of fantasies are the MYTH series; I can't remember the author at the moment. They too are completely original in their ideas. So in my opinion, there are still a lot of authors that are finding new sources for their fantasy novels, just like there are a lot of authors finding sources for their fantasies in Tolkien's works.
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04-26-2004, 09:01 PM | #20 | |
Wight
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You'd probably like Parke Godwin - his novel about Beowulf has great psychological depth regarding Beowulf's relationship with his father, and presents a sympathetic Grendel. I can't name any books of the kind you suggest above, though I'm pretty sure someone has done all of them at some stage. But they're not that common. |
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04-26-2004, 11:36 PM | #21 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
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04-27-2004, 04:44 AM | #22 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I know what you mean, Saraphim, I'm an aspiring author too, and it's hard to get away from Tolkien, even if it's just coincidental similarities! (For instance, wanting to avoid using the name High Elves (my Elves are getting too different now in many ways from "fantasy" Elves that it's odd for me to use the term tho) I went for Golden Elves, because I was stuck for a better term. Any way, at one point a whole bunch of refugees move into a wood, cohabiting with the people there to form the Golden Wood. I realised I'd just named a wood the Golden Wood, and gave up trying to escape fro Tolkein's shadow. ;)
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But why should they set out to be a "thriller" or any other genre, in a fantasy setting? If a fantasy story has vigilantes in them, or psychological thriller-like areas, (and they do) it's because that's how the plot and characters develop, not because the author said, "I'm going to take a stock-plot and just change the setting" - which generally is as bad as an imitation of LotR, because they're just imitating 2 things now. ;) About the Dark Lord effect...yes, it is an extremely easy thing to imitate. And yet, was Tolkien the first to use it? I's just that it deosn't seem like the kind of thing that could have not been aroudn forever, yeet I can't think of any thing close, unless you take the archeenemy of a novel, scuh as Moriarty, as being a mslal version of a Dark Lord figure. Hoom hom.
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04-29-2004, 01:01 AM | #23 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Repeat
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Anyway, it just seemed to me that (which ties in to another reply) it's the mythic races and creatures that are repeated over and again, but a lot of people have a lot of different things to express with those characters. (and when Tolkien's ideas and themes are re-used, that's when it's wicked, wicked noticeable). Quote:
Anyway, it was a breath of fresh air for me to write it, and I plan on doing more. Anyway, I have read some good fantasy that really put different spins on our tried and true elements and alluded to different themes. Weis and Hickman's "Death Gate Cycle" was good, it was about a warmonger named Haplo who thought he was a demigod coming to grips with the fact he was no better than a mere human or dwarf, or his mortal enemy and equally powerful rival, for those who haven't read it. I recommend it, since the world is split into different worlds in it, and each place he visits has completely different interpretations of elves, humans, dwarves and dragons ... And who is the real enemy is the biggest surprise ... That's my recommendation for those of you who want less cliched fantasy, because I think that's where the problem lies - the cliches.
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05-01-2004, 08:56 PM | #24 |
Wight
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I agree with Keeper on that one- to make good fiction of any kind, take one characteristic and emulate it. And showing one of societies many problems is a great way to incorpoate a theme. Is "Death Gate Cycle" a novel? It sounds interesting.
Oh, and one more thing. This is just my pet peeve, and one of those things I get really close to being a motivational speaker about, so just bear with me on this one- Just because you aren't published or have published very little, you ARE a writer, not an aspiring writer as long as you have written something just because you wanted to lately. (not counting high school english assignments- or college!)
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05-01-2004, 10:45 PM | #25 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I'd just have to say: yes, for many years it has frustrated me that i have found few fantasy writings that are not in some way... let's just say, to be pollitically correct, INSPIRED (cough cough) by Tolkien's works or ideas. Characters, plot schemes, races, etc. all seem to have been 'adapted'.
This is not to say that everyone steals ideas ... there are some fantastic fantasy works out there that are very disssimilar to the works of Tolkien... they are rare and hard to find. Those cheapy fantasy paperbacks for example are often just straight copies, yet many authors (MaCathery, Lustbader, Pratchett, etc etc) can still come up with vibrant original works. It's sad, but hey! Tolkien's ideas are all so awesome, it's hard not to write with some of them, it's kind of what we expect fantasy to be nowadays.
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05-12-2004, 08:31 PM | #26 |
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Ok it's clear Tolkien didn't invent the fantasy genre. I mean that's been around since the days of ancient Greece. I think Tolkien just took it to a new level. Just reading some fanatasy books out there now you can tell that the author had to have read Tolkien or that's just an amazing coinidence. Not all fantasy authors do it, but many do it's hard to write a fantasy and not have someone compare it to LOTR. I don't think fantasy authors are "ripping off" Tolkien's work, but there are similarties. Hey, but that's just my opinion.
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05-13-2004, 02:27 PM | #27 |
Haunting Spirit
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Some authors, are ofcourse blantantly ripping off. There are always, people who do that for money. Some are trying to create, new worlds, and have things in common, and get blasted, for being the same. Well, I also like the Exalted fiction(Exalted being an Pen and paper Rpg), and it is also quite different from Tolkien. It has exotic things, from Asia, Egypt, Europe, and other cultures, and its a very good read, I recommend it.
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05-13-2004, 06:38 PM | #28 |
Wight
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I agree Mahal, exotic mythology (not Greek, Norse, Roman, etc.) makes a story so much more fresh. Obsidian Butterfly of the Anita blake series is a lot better than most of the other books in the series because it uses Southwestern myths and Inca traditions in the climax.
Does anyone have a favorite book or collection of these types of myths? I was looking for Australian and Asian (esp. Polynesian) myths and legends at the library, and they only had the familar myths. Any suggestions?
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05-14-2004, 07:56 PM | #29 | |
Wight
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05-17-2004, 07:26 AM | #30 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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OK, one writer who I don't think has taken too much from Tolkien's world but has created (in my opinion) the second best fantasy story is Stephen King, and his Dark Tower series.
OK, so he admits himself he is influenced by Tolkien, but in the DT collection of books I cannot see too many references (if any) to Middle-earth. Ok, so perhaps one! You could compare the rainbow stones to the Palantiri, but even THIS is a loose connection to me. The rainbow stones are far much MORE than the seeing stones in LOTR. To me, the Dark Tower series of books is the 2nd best thing I have read to LOTR. And to me, Roland of Gilead is one of the best written characters I have ever read. Another trilogy I haven't heard mentioned here, and I'm surprised about is Pullman's His Dark Materials. But I'm glad people don't see this work as original as I don't believe it is myself. It could be that Pullman himself has dissed LOTR (ie he's used the good old 'no characterisation' cliche about Tolkien), but I see many throwbacks to Tolkien's plot in Pullman's trilogy. For example, two main characters 'sacrifice' themselves in a position not unfamilliar with the cracks of doom and the last scene in the last book is very Grey Havens-like. (PS regarding Pullman's point on the lack of characterisation in lotr, the only character to me that stands out in his trilogy is Iorek Byrnison). |
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