The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-01-2019, 07:11 PM   #1
R.R.J Tolkien
Wight
 
R.R.J Tolkien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 156
R.R.J Tolkien has just left Hobbiton.
Contradictions between the hobbit and LOTR?

I am engaged in a discussion on supposed contradictions between the hobbit and the rest of Tolkien writings and I was looking for other posters opinions. I hold Tolkien's views like he said In letters 214 of supposed contradictions “Facts that may appear in my record, I believe, in no case due to errors, but omissions, and incompleteness of information.” He went to great lengths to resolve supposed contradictions. So given that, how would you respond to the following.



1-The uuse of the Ring by Bilbo is clearly inconsistent with the way it is described in LOTR


2- Gandalf is very much a different character than the angelic being that he would become.


3- the story of how the Elves and Dwarves became estranged. In the Silmarillion tradition, it goes back to the conflict between Thingol and the Dwarves over the Nauglamír. In The Hobbit, a similar story is told, but the Elf in question is the Woodland King. As Rateliff notes, when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, the Woodland King was either meant to be Thingol himself or a character closely based on him. But when he wrote the sequel, he clarified that the Woodland King was Thranduil, a completely different character. Thus, two completely different and incompatible stories are told about the conflict between the two races.
__________________
“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food...I am fond of mushrooms.” -J.R.R Tolkien
R.R.J Tolkien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 10:12 PM   #2
Ivriniel
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Ivriniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 433
Ivriniel has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien View Post
I am engaged in a discussion on supposed contradictions between the hobbit and the rest of Tolkien writings and I was looking for other posters opinions. I hold Tolkien's views like he said In letters 214 of supposed contradictions “Facts that may appear in my record, I believe, in no case due to errors, but omissions, and incompleteness of information.” He went to great lengths to resolve supposed contradictions. So given that, how would you respond to the following.



1-The uuse of the Ring by Bilbo is clearly inconsistent with the way it is described in LOTR


2- Gandalf is very much a different character than the angelic being that he would become.


3- the story of how the Elves and Dwarves became estranged. In the Silmarillion tradition, it goes back to the conflict between Thingol and the Dwarves over the Nauglamír. In The Hobbit, a similar story is told, but the Elf in question is the Woodland King. As Rateliff notes, when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, the Woodland King was either meant to be Thingol himself or a character closely based on him. But when he wrote the sequel, he clarified that the Woodland King was Thranduil, a completely different character. Thus, two completely different and incompatible stories are told about the conflict between the two races.
We had a very animated discussion about this, some years back. "Originally written as a children's book", without continuity, in its inception with the materials we find in Shadow of the Past, then ringwraiths, and until the first appearance, I think it was on Weathertop, about Gil Galad being an Elven King of Him the Minstrels....and a reflection on Luthien and Beren, by Strider.

Although, we did have much, didn't we, in terms of First Age notes by 1927? In any case, it was also pointed out that there were magical variations in the Hobbit, like a Coffee Table that wandered off, and Cuff Links that were magically operated.

Nonetheless, Orcrest and Glamdring. I can't recall if there was mention of Mount Gundabad in the Hobbit?

My basic position on the Ring in the Hobbit (not a "R"ing yet, just a ring) was that invisibility messed with Bilbo's character, and Stealth implicit in its function was basically creepy, and immoral. Likewise, Sméagol/Gollum, slayed goblin by catching food whilst invisible. Likewise, Bilbo had his moral dilemma about jumping over Sméagol, not slaying him. Thus, I don't see discontinuity with LotR and I recall chastising myself in Shadow of the Past, because "I knew better at the time" (he found the ring) and "I tricked myself into the lure of the invisibility". That is, "I wanted one" of those kinds of rings with its advantages. All made me viscerally unbothered knowing The Hobbit had an amended copy by the 60's. However, despite the amendments, the invisibility is implicitly immoral, IMO, which is my 'goto' about the children's book, that does not have discontinuity with a notion that despite that, somewhere rattling around in Professor Tolkien's head must have been weaving his children's story into his primary passion and mythology in-the-make.

Does anyone recall which Letter has more to say about all this?
__________________
A call to my lost pals. Dine, Orcy_The_Green_Wonder, Droga, Lady Rolindin. Gellion, Thasis, Tenzhi. I was Silmarien Aldalome. Candlekeep. WotC. Can anyone help?

Last edited by Ivriniel; 02-01-2019 at 10:15 PM.
Ivriniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 10:19 PM   #3
Ivriniel
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Ivriniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 433
Ivriniel has just left Hobbiton.
The Arkenstone is a Silmaril……?
__________________
A call to my lost pals. Dine, Orcy_The_Green_Wonder, Droga, Lady Rolindin. Gellion, Thasis, Tenzhi. I was Silmarien Aldalome. Candlekeep. WotC. Can anyone help?
Ivriniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2019, 10:21 PM   #4
Galadriel55
Blossom of Dwimordene
 
Galadriel55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,294
Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Galadriel55 is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
#3. We hear yet another story about how Elves and Dwarves became estranged in Moria and Lorien. Elves and Dwarves had a rocky relationship since before the Thingol incident, and there have been friendships and squabbles since then. Mirkwood Elves may care more about local recent events than about far-away ancient arguments and attribute more of the present situation to the former events. How's that for resolving the contradiction?
__________________
You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera
Galadriel55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2019, 07:06 AM   #5
R.R.J Tolkien
Wight
 
R.R.J Tolkien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 156
R.R.J Tolkien has just left Hobbiton.
Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
#3. We hear yet another story about how Elves and Dwarves became estranged in Moria and Lorien. Elves and Dwarves had a rocky relationship since before the Thingol incident, and there have been friendships and squabbles since then. Mirkwood Elves may care more about local recent events than about far-away ancient arguments and attribute more of the present situation to the former events. How's that for resolving the contradiction?
That was my original response and idea. Two separate accounts of flitting of smaller dwarves and elves. But without the text quoted [yet] I cant be sure what is going on.
__________________
“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food...I am fond of mushrooms.” -J.R.R Tolkien
R.R.J Tolkien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2019, 08:39 AM   #6
R.R.J Tolkien
Wight
 
R.R.J Tolkien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 156
R.R.J Tolkien has just left Hobbiton.
I had stated this


Perhaps it was referring to different groups of dwarves and elves. Maybe the Hobbit a more recent separation of the woodland elves or Mirkwood and the local dwarves of erebor? Also to count his unpublished sillmarillion that he was not working on vs his published hobbit, I think gets it backwards. Tolkien was a perfectionist in his writings, nothing hit the press unless revised, reconsidered and then finally published. Given that I think it safe to assume if Tolkien thought it a contradiction, he would have edited his yet to be published Sillm


I was just reading at the council of Elrond Gandalf says "If all the grievances that stand between elves and dwarves are to be brought up here, we may as well abandon the council." I think that supports what I had said, these very well could be two separate but similar accounts over the span of many generations of fighting between the two. The hobbit local and recent, the sillmarillion major and the first.
__________________
“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food...I am fond of mushrooms.” -J.R.R Tolkien
R.R.J Tolkien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2019, 01:50 PM   #7
Morsul the Dark
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Morsul the Dark's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,502
Morsul the Dark is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Morsul the Dark is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Gandalf was always working to fortify the West and North from Mordor. That’s a big reason he moved to put Thorin and company back into the lonely mountain. The biggest reason I can think of about the difference is Gandalf before Bilbo is working against a hypothetical threat. In LoTR it’s no longer hypothetical and a full blown crisis
__________________
Morsul the Resurrected
Morsul the Dark is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:34 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.