Which Names Were Worth "1,000 Mail-Clad Knights?

[Forlong the Fat]

When the captains are planning the last "assault" on Mordor, Imrahil says something to the effect that Sauron is likely to laugh at the attack because the force is smaller than the van of Gondor's army at its height. Gandalf responds that Sauron won't laugh, and that there are names in the group "worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights." I've always been intrigued by that line, which I take to mean that there are individuals in the group, about whom Sauron knows, and whom he holds in such esteem that he would worry about them more than if the force had another thousand knights.

So the question is, who is on that list?

Gandalf, I think, is obvious.

Aragorn I think is fairly obvious, too, not only because of the threat he represents as Isildur's heir, with his sword, but also because of his ability to rally the whole of Gondor.

But who else?

Elrond's sons seem like a possibility, not only because they are powerful evles, but because their father was present when Sauron fell the last time (something Sauron might tend to remember)

Maybe Imrahil? I feel like we don't know enough about him to say for certain. But there certainly is a strong suggestion that he has a profound inner power (e.g., walking the walls with Gandalf undaunted when everyone else in Gondor was in terror of the Nazgul). I would put him down as a maybe.

Am I missing anyone?

And, as a related question, who else in Middle Earth at the time who was not present would have fallen in the same category?

My list:

Galadriel
Celeborn (maybe)
Elrond
Cirdan
Glorfindel
Some handful of High Elves remaining in Rivendell or the Grey Havens
Saruman
Radagast (this one's hard to accept--he seems to have made himself something of a joke)
The Blue Wizards, if they still were alive and hadn't converted to darkness
The Eagles

Anyone else?

[Inziladun]

Welcome, Forlong!

I think your list is pretty sound as to the names Gandalf would have had in mind. I might add Éomer as well, as the king of Rohan. The deaths of any his enemies' leaders would obviously have been a great achievement for Sauron.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I like your list - and this topic (and welcome to the 'Downs!). I would agree on most you have said, and mentioned on the list.

All the "obvious ones" are names which have the sound of "wow, what a powerful/ancient and wise/descended from incredibly legendary lineage/any other similarly good reasons guy". So, I think Gandalf, Aragorn, and Elrond for example are completely undebatable. Galadriel likewise (Sauron actually was supposed to really fear her) and even Celeborn, I think (even though did not seem so, hmm, how to say it, active at times, or as impressive, but still I think Sauron would not care and throw him in the same bag with Galadriel). Círdan would fit, too, if he was in that army, of course, as much as Saruman would.

I don't know about Radagast. Depends how much Sauron knew about him. If very little, he could fear him based on what he was (as in: "What is this? Another Gandalf? Perhaps weaker, but still similar in power? Then I should be afraid"). But I think from what Sauron was like, his reaction would be more similar to Saruman's: he would just laugh at Radagast. Though maybe if Radagast was a part of this large group of Aragorns, Gandalfs and others, it would add to his fears more than if there was, say, even a strong Gondorian general in there.

Speaking of that, Boromir would certainly qualify, had he been alive (he was a man with the reputation of a true warrior, and brave and all). Not sure if his brother had such a strong reputation as well, but maybe he would qualify as well. Which naturally leads me to concluding Imrahil might have qualified, if you count his blood too. We don't know what were his deeds otherwise - that is the only reason why I would doubt it. But if e.g. Imrahil used to be a feared foe of the Haradrim, then for sure. For that matter, your namesake seems to have enjoyed a rather good reputation, so even he might have been among those names (were he alive), if he was really e.g. a war hero or somesuch.

The Elves, however, probably mostly lack the fact of being known to Sauron for him to fear them. Glorfindel is one I am not sure about in this respect. I am sure that if Sauron knew about them, he would be freaked out maybe even more than about many of the others. (Well, maybe at least after the Fords of Bruinen he knew that there was something like that, from the Nazgul.) Elladan and Elrohir would be feared, for sure, just because of being Elrond's sons if nothing else, but also they seem to be well-known and also they are Orc-slayers and after joining Aragorn etc. they would be even more, so...

Eagles are something Sauron would deeply hate and yes, probably even fear on purpose (because of all the ancient stuff related to Thorondor being such a menace even for Morgoth etc.), but they won't probably count as "names" (I doubt Sauron knew the names of any Third Age eagles). That'd be the same with e.g. Ents (which he probably thought they didn't exist anymore just as much as Saruman did).

If we are speaking theoretically, people like Brand (from the lineage of the guy who had killed the dragon, if nothing else) or Dáin (a very famous Dwarf) would probably also fit. Maybe even Balin (again, had he lived).

(edit: cross-posted with Inzil)

[Mithalwen]

I think Imrahil might qualify because he seems incorruptable and unafraid. i
In all things that we see of him provides an example of the leadership and indeep with regard to Faramir the paternal care Denethor is unable to give because of his despair. He has no inclination to seize power for himself but acknowledges seemingly instinctively Aragorn for who he is and acts accordingly. He is his own man and yet maintains respect for the appointed order. You cannot imagine him aver agreeing to be suzerain of a thrall state as per the offfer made at the parley.

He has wisdom and wit and maybe, as in some more than others of the same lineage the blood of Numenor ran truer, maybe he has more than his entitlement of Elvish longsight.

[Forlong the Fat]

Thanks for the comments and the warm welcome.

I have my doubts whether Sauron would consider any "mere" man (someone without at least some elvish or Numenorean blood) as a real threat. So I'm not convinced that Eomer or even possibly Boromir (in whom Gandalf noted the blood of Numenor did not run true as in Faramir) would catch his attention.

As for his knowledge of Glorfindel, I suspect that Sauron would be well aware of him. Recall that Saruman seemed to know all about even Gimli. Whether that knowledge came from the Palantir or some other method is not clear, but I would assume that Sauron had at least as much knowledge of the denizens of ME, particularly those few who could present a real threat to him.

[Boromir88]

Hello Forlong, welcome to the 'Downs. You've actually drawn me out of my Books' forum hibernation and have me thinking about your ideas in this thread.

One thing to remember, is I don't think the only measure of who Sauron would view as "worth more than 1,000 mail-clad knights" is a person's "power." I'll use Saruman as an example. Simply because Saruman would have been more powerful than Eomer, or Aragorn, does not mean Sauron would have viewed Saruman as a bigger threat to him. For Sauron knew Saruman was much like him:

Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of palantiri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him~HoME X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed

Sauron knew and understood Saruman well, because Saruman, in fact becomes more like a cheap knock off, or a "Sauron lite" if you will. Where Gandalf, he could never figure out, suggesting he had more reason and cause to fear Gandalf. Similar to how Aragorn revealing himself to be Isildur's heir in the palantir, surprises and causes Sauron to doubt his plans. Doubt enough that leads to him launching his attack against Gondor sooner than planned.

"Over confidence" (at least Sauron as he is in Lord of the Rings) really isn't one of his vices. He was pragmatic, and rational, preferring order, coordination, knowing how best to employ his resources and not waste them. A very different Dark Lord/villain from Morgoth. He was perfectly fine with ruling and dominating the wills of people, I would even say he preferred it to spending resources to destroy people. An ultimate control freak.

So, I would add Gimli (and in general the dwarves) to the list. Dwarves were a resilient race, who were impossible for Sauron to tame. Gimli and Gloin go to Rivendell to report messengers have come from Sauron demanding information, but also a bribe to stay out of Sauron's business, and don't get involved. The Dwarves might have been a withdrawn race, but Sauron certainly remembered Durin's House always stood against him. And Sauron feared their involvement enough to try to bribe them into staying in their mountains.

I would not rule out a person's power as one of the criteria, but it wouldn't be the only one, and I don't even know if it would be the most important one, because of how Sauron conducted his business. He was more concerned about powerful individuals whose minds he did not know (Gandalf), or people who, in a sense, were beyond his ability to corrupt/manipulate into subjugation (Aragorn, Imrahil, the Elves, Durin's House...I can see an argument for Eomer, but not Rohan on it's own. I think the main fear Sauron had with Rohan was allying and bringing troops to Gondor's aid - and hence, why he was still leaving Saruman in Isengard.). Because if he couldn't manipulate subjugation that meant he had to spend resources to force subjugation, and Sauron did not like being wasteful unless necessary.

[Morthoron]

Lobelia Sackville-Baggins was one dangerous broad. I can see her now, wielding her bumbershoot, crying "Get off my lawn!" as she despatched Orcs until they lay in great heaps in a circle about her.

[Forlong the Fat]

The dwarves are interesting. They would never submit to him, and that would certainly bother him very much. Even if he regained his ring he could not have brought them within his dominion, and probably would have to resort to genocide. On the other hand, they probably weren't a direct threat to him. They could not have meaningfully assaulted him, and were unlikely to even try. This makes them very different from Aragorn or Glorfindel, say, who could presumably even challenge him in single combat, as Elendil and Gil-Galad did.

[Uruk's Bane]

I'm asking you guys about this one, because it is a somewhat special case. Obviously, the Rangers of the North were as not well known among the people of Middle Earth as the men from Gondor or others (except for the mysterious wanderer reputation, of course). With that said, however, these were kinsman of Aragon, descendants of the same linage. Like Aragorn, it seems implied in the books that they were skilled fighters and trackers. Halbarad, the leader, seems to be greatly loved by Aragorn. The coming of the Rangers also seems to greatly relieve Aragorn. The Rangers of the Grey Company must have been valiant warriors, because although they were few, they made a great impact both psychologically and physically on the battle of Pelennor Fields. After all, the Rangers were the only men Aragorn actually took with him on the corsair ships to Minas Tirith. The dead stayed behind.

So, would the kinsman of Aragorn (at least some of them, like Halbarad) be considered names worth "1,000 Mail-Clad Knights"?

[Inziladun]

Welcome to the Downs, Uruk's Bane!

Aside from Aragorn, known to Sauron as a claimed Heir of Elendil, I honestly wouldn't think the rest of the Northern Dúnedain would have been thought a serious threat to him.
Their numbers were so greatly diminished that, skilled as they were, they were no real impediment. After all, they had been unable to even prevent the Nazgûl from entering the Shire earlier.
No doubt Sauron would have taken pleasure in utterly destroying the Dúnedain from North and South when they were gathered right in front of his gates, but I doubt he had thoughts for any of the remnant of the Men of Arnor by name except Aragorn.

[Uruk's Bane]

Good thoughts, and you're probably right.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I find it hard to believe that the Eagles would have been on the list. True, they seem powerful, but never do they seem to me to be part of the army. They only show up when Gandalf is in need (including to drive off the Nazgul). There is no mention of them at Pelennor Fields, and no mention of them on the march or even in the battle up until the point when they attack the Nazgul. I'm skeptical, then, that Gandalf had them in mind when before setting off on the march he said that in the army were names worth 1,000 mail-clad knights.

[Eönwë]

Wasn't there a line where Théoden said something along the lines of Aragorn's Dúnadan kinsmen being worth more that than normal people?

edit: Looked it up. This is what I meant. I suppose it's not really the same.

Originally Posted by LOTR, ROTK, The Passing of the Grey Company

Théoden was indeed glad of the news. "It is well!" he said. "If these kinsmen be in any way like to yourself, my lord Aragorn, thirty such knights will be a strength that cannot be counted by heads."

[Uruk's Bane]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Wasn't there a line where Théoden said something along the lines of Aragorn's Dúnadan kinsmen being worth more that than normal people?

edit: Looked it up. This is what I meant. I suppose it's not really the same.

I think it's assumed that they WERE like Aragorn in skill, so it still kind of speaks to their importance. :\

[Galadriel55]

Speaking of the Dunedain, I think they are just as skilled as Aragorn. Aragorn is more powerful than they are internally, that's the main difference between them. Even so, I think an average Ranger would have a much, much stronger willpower than regular folk. That's the reason, in my opinion, that Theoden, Eowyn, and Eomer told Aragorn that his people would be a great help in actual fighting and in keeping up hope.

[Uruk's Bane]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Speaking of the Dunedain, I think they are just as skilled as Aragorn. Aragorn is more powerful than they are internally, that's the main difference between them. Even so, I think an average Ranger would have a much, much stronger willpower than regular folk. That's the reason, in my opinion, that Theoden, Eowyn, and Eomer told Aragorn that his people would be a great help in actual fighting and in keeping up hope.

Agreed. Aragorn was of course the Heir of Elendil and had a much more important role, not to mention his strength of purpose. But, I'd still say the Dunedain might have been on Gandalf's list.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Uruk's Bane

But, I'd still say the Dunedain might have been on Gandalf's list.

I have no doubt of that.

[Forlong the Fat]

I agree that the Dunedain potentially had the skill/inner power to qualify for the "list." But I wonder if Sauron knew about them. He apparently knew nothing about Aragorn, as evidenced by his reaction to Aragorn's reveal in the palantir. Though I am not at all sure how Aragorn manages to escape his notice.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Forlong the Fat

I agree that the Dunedain potentially had the skill/inner power to qualify for the "list." But I wonder if Sauron knew about them. He apparently knew nothing about Aragorn, as evidenced by his reaction to Aragorn's reveal in the palantir. Though I am not at all sure how Aragorn manages to escape his notice.

He considered the Dunedain too small a force to do any harm. As for Aragorn, firstly, I think that he hoped that Isildur's line was cut for good, though he would not count on it. Secondly, he reasoned that even if an heir is alive, he's long lost in some dirty hovel with 30 people to rule. Not much of a threat either.

[Uruk's Bane]

Originally Posted by Forlong the Fat

I agree that the Dunedain potentially had the skill/inner power to qualify for the "list." But I wonder if Sauron knew about them. He apparently knew nothing about Aragorn, as evidenced by his reaction to Aragorn's reveal in the palantir. Though I am not at all sure how Aragorn manages to escape his notice.

I'm guessing Sauron knew about them. I don't think the Rangers of the North were in any way secret. Sure, they were mysterious, but they traveled all around. I'd find it hard to believe that Sauron didn't know about them or their skill. As for Aragorn, I feel sure Sauron knew a Ranger was with the fellowship. I'm also sure Sauron recognized his skill, even though he didn't know the Ranger was the heir. After all, Aragorn single-handedly drove off the Nazgul from Weathertop. I'm sure Sauron heard about that. I think he knew about Strider. The thing that surprised him was when Aragorn, the heir of Elendil, showed him himself and his sword in the palantir.

[Formendacil]

I think it's worth emphasising the symbolism of the names on the list. Even from the way Imrahil talks about it, I think it's clear that a big part of the reason Sauron will take notice of the names, specifically, of those marching on the Black Gate is because of what they stand for, that is, what they symbolise, not necessarily what actual force they command.

With regards to the Dúnedain of the North, they are a reminder that Sauron failed in Eriador. While Arthedain is no more, neither is Angmar; and of the two, Arthedain was the one that left behind survivors--left behind an institution in fact. Admittedly, the North-kingdom was no longer a military threat to Sauron's takeover of Middle-earth, but their continued survival was a sign that Sauron, just like the good guys, had been fighting "The Long Defeat" without complete success.

What is more, I agree with Uruk's Bane that Sauron probably knew about the existence of the Rangers. After all, they'd been thwarting his wolves and goblins in Eriador for centuries (take note of all the premature deaths noted among Aragorn's ancestors), and these incursions must have had at least some direction from Sauron during his time as Necromancer.

With that in mind, consider what Sauron must have thought when the Dúnedain of the North made their reappearance in the broader world in the immediate wake of his discovery that Isildur still had an Heir. Aragorn's appearance would have made the very existence of the Rangers go from being an irritation in the North to a symbolic slap in the face of three millennia of planning. If they were to march on the Morannon and all be slaughtered, Sauron would be able to destroy more than just an annoyance, he'd be able to effect a massive symbolic coup.

On a similar note, I think the March on the Morannon must have reminded Sauron of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men--not something he would want to remember. Admittedly, the number of Elves in this new alliance was only three if you count the Sons of Elrond, but the presence of the Sons of Elrond and the Northern Dúnedain in battle with his enemies of the South represented the alliance of their respective lands. This would serve as a reminder of Sauron's failure to divide his enemies against him, and would also serve as a reminder of past failures. After all, the last time that Gondor and Arnor fought together, the Witch-king's armies were destroyed, and the time before that was the Last Alliance.

Sauron, whose calculated cunning was very great, would have been extremely unlikely, in my opinion, to have ignored the symbolic victory the chance to wipe out these enemies afforded him.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Sauron, whose calculated cunning was very great, would have been extremely unlikely, in my opinion, to have ignored the symbolic victory the chance to wipe out these enemies afforded him.

And at the same time recognized the threat of a severe symbolic loss, even if the Rangers et al would gain little. That would be part of the foundation of his fears. (other parts including, of course, that all of a sudden Isildur still has an heir, that this heir has a stronger willpower than Sauron, and that he's coming with the Broken Sword in hand - another symbolic relic).

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Denethor ? Although he was driven mad by what he saw with the Palantir, he was "too great to be subdued" according to Gandalf.

[Glorthelion]

I think the 30 or so Dunedain would be worthy to be added on that list because they are a remnant of the Numenoreans of the north which were not seen that frequently in the Third age. Perhaps the rarity of seeing one adds to the splendor when an ordinary Man or an orc sees them.
I wouldn't say that Saruman would be worth a thousand mail clad knights because he really did not contribute anything in the war of the ring although he did in the effort against Sauron in Dol Guldur. Radagast I would not also put in the list. The Blue Wizards I'm not sure of. Perhaps they might have been in the east, busy stirring rebellions among the inhabitants of Rhun? Perhaps the efforts of the blue wizard prevented prevented Sauron from having more Easterlings in his army. I don't know.
The king of dale, Thranduil and Dain deserve mention too although in my knowledge Thrandiul never participated in any battle whatsover. The Hobbit never explicitly mentioned that Thranduil was involved in the battle of Five Armies, although he did lead the elves there. But him having led the elves there I am inclined to think that this implies he did participate in the battle.



Glorthelion

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Denethor ? Although he was driven mad by what he saw with the Palantir, he was "too great to be subdued" according to Gandalf.

Granted one could say irrelevant since Denethor was in fact dead by the time Aragorn leads his host to the Black Gate, but I have a touch of pity for the man.

I agree about Denethor, but in a different way. He was still "mail-clad" during the Siege of Gondor, but I wouldn't call him a knight in the sense of a warrior. Since, Denethor makes clear to Gandalf he believes as Gondor's leader he would be more effective doing so from his seat (as Sauron sits back in his tower to "lead."):

Denethor laughed bitterly. "Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand."~The Siege of Gondor

Having said this, Denethor still had a strong and capable will (as proven in his ability to use the palantir). He was in fact the leader of Sauron's most hated enemy, and as such, Sauron feared him. Unfinished Tales (The Palantiri) notes that Sauron had no servant with a strong enough will to match Denethor's, and thus it is why Sauron himself has to use the palantir. Once Sauron discovers Denethor is using the palantir in Minas Tirith, he discovers an opportunity, as Gandalf puts it:

"Even in the heart of our stronghold the Enemy has power to strike us: for his will it is that is at work."~The Pyre of Denethor

So dead by this time in the story, and not a front-line leader. But for all his faults, Denethor arguably had the strongest will of the men of Gondor, and was a big enough concern to Sauron that Sauron himself had to use the palantir to make his "strike at the heart" of Minas Tirith.

Originally Posted by Glorthelion

The king of dale, Thranduil and Dain deserve mention too although in my knowledge Thrandiul never participated in any battle whatsover. The Hobbit never explicitly mentioned that Thranduil was involved in the battle of Five Armies, although he did lead the elves there. But him having led the elves there I am inclined to think that this implies he did participate in the battle.

Regarding Thranduil, I agree that since he's noted as leading the Elven host at the battle of Five Armies he in fact fought in it. As I mentioned with Denethor above, there were certainly leaders who did not lead their armies at the front, but preferred using others (namely Sauron and Denethor). However, rarely would Denethor and Sauron be mentioned as "leading" during a battle. In Gondor's case, it's normally whoever the lord was of the certain fiefdom.

For example, Imrahil is mentioned when Tolkien wants to talk about the knights of Dol Amroth during the Siege of Gondor. Or Forlong, when it is the men he brought from Lossarnach. So, the fact that Thranduil is the Elven-King, and is the leader of the Elven host at the Battle of Five Armies, is I think sufficient enough to conclude he was present and fought in the battle. If not, then he definitely fought during the Last Alliance. His father, Oropher, was the leader of the Mirkwood elves at the time, but dies during the battle and Thranduil is specifically mentioned as leading the surviving Elves back to Mirkwood. (Basically, I'm just trying to get at, Thranduil has been an established and present name in battles).

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Pretty sure that Thanduil was involved in the big battle at the end of the Second Age on Dagorland.

[Belegorn]

I think the "names... worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights apiece" are Gandalf, Aragorn [who I believe is very like the Dunedain in Elendil's time and at that time none of Sauron's forces could stand before those Dunedain], and perhaps the sons of Elrond. I do not think much more. I will not include the Dunedain of the north nor those of the south. I think both those Dunedain are pretty similar as pertains to their stature among men of that day. Faramir was greater than any man of Rohan and the only people in the south kingdom who were like him were his father and Imrahil. I believe in Gondor in some houses in Gondor the bloodlines were more pure than in others like in the Stewards house and in the nobles of Dol Amroth.

If I had to add others to the list not with that party of course all of the Noldor left in ME, like Galadriel and Glorfindel, of men I can only choose the Dunedain, liike Faramir. Faramir appears to be a figure like unto Aragorn on a lesser level. Gandalf says of Faramir and his father, "He is not as other men of this time,... by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir...He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off." [RotK, p. 33]

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I think the "names... worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights apiece" are Gandalf, Aragorn [who I believe is very like the Dunedain in Elendil's time and at that time none of Sauron's forces could stand before those Dunedain], and perhaps the sons of Elrond. I do not think much more. I will not include the Dunedain of the north nor those of the south...

Especially considering that Gandalf's statement about "Names worth ..." deals more with Sauron's perception that with who could actually fight with the force of 1000 knights.

Thus, for example, we need not consider the actual abilities of, say, Legolas & Gimli but rather ask whether they had established a sufficient reputation IN SAURON'S PERCEPTION that he would think they were that valuable. Thus, about all that Sauron would have known (if that) was that they survived Moria (with G's help); were in in the company of the Ring (as were several small Hobbits); survived the Hornburg (if he even knew they were there) and survived Pellenor.

Aragorn, on the other hand, was Isuldur's heir, possessed the sword that robbed S of his Ring, and had already wrested control of the Orthanc stone from Sauron in direct, mental confrontation !! And Gandalf had been dogging Sauron's heels for over a thousand years (closer to two thousand years - ever since he began to stir again).

About the only other "NAMES" (ie, people who had made names for themselves which Sauron would know) who were there were Imrahil & Eomer. Eomer "might" be considered simply by virtue of being King of the Mark - and, so, able to command the actions of thousands of warriers who helped defeat him on the Pellenor. Imrahil "might" be considered by virtue of being a chief prince and knight of Gondor.

Otherwise, I agree that the Dunedain (as a group) were not a "Name" (ie, a single person to be feared) any more than the armies of Gondor or the Mark. They were important as a group, but none of them were even given names in the story (Halbarad had already died) so it seems unlikely Sauron would or could have looked and said "Oh no! That's Elminar! We need to watch him!!!"

So, I think Belegorn has the right of it - with the possible consideration of Eomer & Imrahil being included (in Sauron's reckoning) by virtue of their ranks and offices.

[Mumriken]

I find it kinda silly how Sauron is looked up at to the extent that he is by so many. While he is a great enemy he is not as powerful as some think. There are many creatures in middle earth more dangerous and more powerful than him. Even many of the good guys could defeat him in the condition he is at the end of the third age. Remember we aren't talking about Sauron in the old days under morgoth or when he had his ring.

At the end of the third age he was a weakling, fled Dol Guldur when the white council approached him. It's true that unlike the istaris he could use his power fully. But most of that power he poured into his ring. So without his ring I wouldn't think he is much stronger than Radagast maybe even weaker. His strength lies in his armies and ability to control people with fear. He feared many:

Gandalf
Aragorn
Elrond
Galadriel
Glorfindel
Radagast
Eagles of manwe

And there are even more people he would fear if he knew they existed:

Ents
Army of the dead
Tom Bombadil
Goldberry
Old Man willow (A very strange powerful tree that)
The blue wizards

Many would easily in a contest of power beat Sauron to the ground. As for what people he feared could actually win over his army. I think he was sure of winning, at that last battle at the black gate he feared nothing.

[Belegorn]

Mumriken I have to disagree with your assertion that Sauron, "is not as powerful as some think" because, "without his ring I wouldn't think he is much stronger than Radagast maybe even weaker". This is false as far as I am aware. While Sauron donned the Ring his power was increased in ME but he still had his power even if he did not wear it. Tolkien wrote in one of his letters, "While he wore it his power on earth was actually enhanced, But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place." Besides we even have Gandalf admitting when he returned as Gandalf the White, "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still." [TT, p. 123]

[Mumriken]

Only mightier because he is using his full "power". If Gandalf, Radagast or anyone else would be allowed to use all their power they could overthrow him. Sauron is not the greatest of the maias. I don't really like that everyone is worshipping him as if he was some uber god. One would think listening to you that you're talking about Morgoth. Remember when Sauron served under Morgoth and was pretty much at the peak of his power. Luthien I think it was actually challenged him in some spell battle. I can't remember the details but she was an elf and actually challenged and deflected his spells. Or hid herself from him.

At the third age half of his power was in the ring, and btw I think you shouldn't take what gandalf says too seriously. Even if he could challenge Sauron he wouldn't. He is there too guide, so why would he say he could challenge the dark lord when he won't? Isildur defeated Sauron and he was human. Sauron isn't Morgoth, I think in this thread you make it sound as if he is. He would fear most if it wouldn't be for his orc army.

EDIT: Yeah and then how come he was defeated when he was parted from the riing at the last alliance battle? So you're saying he is still as powerful without the ring and that the ring just enhances his power? I don't think that makes much sense, then why did he hid himself in Dol Guldur for x years if he was a fully fleshed maia spirit at the peak of his power? Clearly being parted from the ring he was weak...

[Belegorn]

If Gandalf, Radagast or anyone else would be allowed to use all their power they could overthrow him

How do you know this?

One would think listening to you that you're talking about Morgoth

Really? Okay. I'm not sure what I said for you to make such a claim.

Luthien I think it was actually challenged him in some spell battle

He was challenged many times.

she was an elf and actually challenged and deflected his spells

You're probably talking about her kinsmen Finrod who Sauron defeated and imprisoned with Beren in his dungeons. Luthien he tried to attack but the hound of Valinor, Huan, defeated Sauron. Btw, she along with Beren went before Melkor's throne and took a Silmaril from his crown. So don't try to claim that because Sauron could be bested he was somehow not a force in ME.

At the third age half of his power was in the ring

The Ring was created in the 2nd Age. His power was in it before the 3rd Age.

I think you shouldn't take what gandalf says too seriously

And here we are... I think we should not take what you say too seriously, haha.

Even if he could challenge Sauron he wouldn't

He feared Sauron. Even as Olorin. In Valinor we are told, "that he feared Sauron" [Unfinished Tales, p. 410] when he was summoned by Manwe to be a messenger to ME. In ME he tells us, "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still." [TT, p. 123]

Sauron isn't Morgoth

Nobody is. He was the most powerful being in Arda.

I think in this thread you make it sound as if he is

Certainly not I. You're the one who is making false claims here. First that Sauron is weak without his Ring and that people are saying he's stronger than Melkor. Now there is a thread with that question but this is not that thread.

Isildur defeated Sauron and he was human

Isildur and the Dunedain of the 2nd Age were like the Eldar in that period. They were very powerful. None of Sauron's servants could stand up to them. This is why he went off to Numenor to destroy them from within. Sauron, "could not trust even the greatest of his servants to withstand them." [Sil. p. 334] And for all his [Sauron] power "Ar-Pharazon... grew to the mightiest tyrant that had yet been in the world since the reign of Morgoth." [Sil, p. 339] So like I said, when you reference the Dunedain like Isildur and Elendil keep in mind they were more like to the Eldar than to Men. Also Sauron's body was destroyed by Elendil AND Gil-galad, the King of the Elves. Also even though he was beat, he did kill his two foes as well.

how come he was defeated when he was parted from the riing at the last alliance battle

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. You have been saying that without his Ring Sauron is weak. When the Last Alliance beat him Sauron had his Ring. It was cut from his finger by Isildur after Sauron's body was destroyed.

you're saying he is still as powerful without the ring and that the ring just enhances his power

Yes. He is still in rapport with the Ring, unless another like Gandalf or Galadriel had taken it and wielded it. Again, maybe you think like Gandalf we should not trust to Tolkien's words. Tolkien said, "While he wore it his power on earth was actually enhanced, But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place."

why did he hid himself in Dol Guldur for x years if he was a fully fleshed maia spirit at the peak of his power

"For coming out of the wastes of the East he took up his abode in the south of the forest, and slowly he grew and took shape there again; in a dark hill he made his dwelling and wrought there his sorcery, and all folk feared the Sorcerer of Dol Guldur," [Sil, pp. 371-72] This is not new. Apparently when the body is destroyed it takes time and patience for it to be rebuilt and to grow. In the 2nd Age when he was caught in the downfall of Numenor we are told, "his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hate made visible;" [Sil, p. 347]

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

I find it kinda silly how Sauron is looked up at to the extent that he is by so many. While he is a great enemy he is not as powerful as some think. There are many creatures in middle earth more dangerous and more powerful than him. Even many of the good guys could defeat him in the condition he is at the end of the third age. Remember we aren't talking about Sauron in the old days under morgoth or when he had his ring.

Don't blame us, blame Mr. Tolkien:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.~Letter 246

In the 3rd Age, it can be argued Gandalf may have been able to overthrow Sauron (only if Gandalf attempted to master the Ring), but as is clear, it is only Gandalf who "might be expected to master him." Your list of others is a ton and ton of speculation.

Power and peril is a vague and general term in LOTR. It doesn't have clearly defined boundaries and meaning "since Gandalf is more powerful than Aragorn, Gandalf would beat Aragorn in a fight." Many times there are certain circumstances and situations which require specific "powers" (or magic, you might say) which allow for events to play out the way they do. For example, The Witch-King was a far more powerful and dangerous foe then Eowyn and Merry. But Merry carried an enchanted blade, wound with spells specifically designed to be the bane of the Witch-King, and when Merry snuck in a wound with the blade, this broke the Witch-King's power, allowing Eowyn to defeat him.

Or we see Gandalf struggling with opening the door in Moria. He tries every opening spell he knows...and he knows a ton of spells. Yet, as powerful as the spells might be, the door wouldn't open. All Gandalf had to do was follow the directions haha..."speak friend and enter." Anyway, Moria's door could not be opened by sheer power or Gandalf's knowledge of spells, but simply by knowing the answer to a riddle. Sauron rightfully feared Aragorn, a descendant of his most hated enemy, if Aragorn had the Ring. This however does not equate to Aragorn having a greater innate power to Sauron.

As far as Sauron's battle in the Last Alliance and defeat there...it's actually not Isildur who overthrows Sauron. The Eldar and Edain had been laying siege to Barad-dur for 7 years and Barad-dur was not going to be conquered until the Ring was destroyed. Sauron decides to come out and challenge both Elendil and Gil-galad in combat. And it is Elendil and Gil-Galad (together) who overthrow Sauron. Elendil and Gil-galad also die in this battle, and while Sauron is laying beaten on the ground, Isildur cuts the Ring off to claim as weregild for the death of his father and brother.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

He feared many:

Gandalf
Aragorn
Elrond
Galadriel
Glorfindel
Radagast
Eagles of manwe

And there are even more people he would fear if he knew they existed:

Ents
Army of the dead
Tom Bombadil
Goldberry
Old Man willow (A very strange powerful tree that)
The blue wizards

But isn't the point of this thread about Gandalf's statement that "There are names **HERE** which are worth..." and discussing which names he might have been thinking of? He didn't say "there are names in middle earth", but "names HERE".

Then the only names he could consider would be of those who were actually **HERE** (ie, with him at the last debate or, perhaps, in the vicinity of Minas Tirith and available to march with the host to the Black Gate.

Of the names you listed, only Gandalf and Aragorn were there and available - and I think we all agree those two names would be included.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"Glorfindel is one I am not sure about in this respect. I am sure that if Sauron knew about them, he would be freaked out maybe even more than about many of the others."

The Witch-king certainly remembers him, having fled from Glorfindel in terror at the Battle of Fornost. Great sorcerer and wraith though he was, he knew a Valinorean Elf-Lord was more than he could withstand.