isildur and the ring

[nynnd1]

When isildur got the ring and him and elrond are standing in Mt. Doom why does Elrond not 'force' isildur to put the ring into the fire.

[Eöl]

Unless i'm terribly forgetting alot of things, this is just a scene made up in the movie. They never actually ventured into mt. doom. After Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand he just claimed it as his own.
Elrond and Cirdan who stood by him counselled him to cast it into the fires of orodruin, this way sauron would be destroyed, but Isildur refused and claimed the ring as a weregild for his father and brother.

They COULD have forced him, but this would surely lead to total enstrangement between the races and after all they swore an Alliance

[ainur]

Forcing him would have broken him. Though he only had it for a short amount of time, they were on the slopes of Mount Doom, where the Ring was at it's most powerful. It no doubt took an immediate hold of his mind. Tolkien said somewhere (I think in one of his letters--I don't have them, I read it here on the 'Downs) that no one in Middle Earth could voluntarily destroy the Ring. Forcing him to destroy it would have wounded his soul beyond healing, as it did Frodo. Taking it from him in order to destroy it would have done the same to him as it did to Gollum--driven him mad. And then you'd be back in the same boat. Neither Elrond nor Cirdan had the strength to cast it into the fire either. It could only be destroyed the way it was--by accident (with a little push from Iluvatar.)

[Eöl]

thanks for enlightening us ainur

But did Elrond knew this?
I'm presuming here he did, but then why did he send out frodo with the ring(or atleast allow him), to eventually destroy it, if he knew this couldn't be done by his own achieving.
Did he foresee , even vaguely, these actions?

[Lord Elrond]

I'm not sure that the only way the ring could be destroyed was by accident There might have been some who had the power to destroy it. I don't believe Tolkien actually said that accidentaly was the only way to destroy it. It can be assumed that there would be very few and there might not be any in middle earth who had the strength but I dont know for sure that we can assume that no one had the strength.

[Legolas]

Frodo's pain came from having the Ring so long. Isildur was different - being a man and a king, no less, he was more susceptible to the greed (as shown by the wraiths and Boromir). Hobbits showed resilience and displayed the obsession with the Ring only after extended exposure. Had Frodo been able to teleport to Mt. Doom from the Shire, I believe he probably would've had little problem with destroying it.

Backing up the first response here, yes - the Elrond/Isildur scene in the opening of the movie is made up. A council was held on what to do with the Ring, if memory serves correct.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 2:29 PM December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Firefoot]

Had Frodo been able to teleport to Mt. Doom from the Shire, I believe he probably would've had little problem with destroying it.

I disagree. When Gandalf came to the Shire in A Shadow of the Past Gandalf proved it was the One Ring, told Frodo of the dangers, etc.

"But why not destroy it, as you say should have beendone long ago?" cried Frodo again. "If you had warned me or even sent me a message, I would have done away with it."
"Would you? How would you do that? Have you tried?"
"No. but I suppose one could hammer it or melt it."
"Try," said Gandalf. "Try now."

Frodo does try and he finds he cannot destroy it. So, I suppose that with some difficulty Frodo might be able to destroy it at Mount Doom but it definitey would have been hard.

But that was not the original question. I agree that Isildur could not have been "forced" into destroying the ring; it would break his mind. Isildur did not have the strength to cast the ring away, and though there were some who had that strength of mind, there were probably not very many.

Just my opinion.

[The Saucepan Man]

Had Frodo been able to teleport to Mt. Doom from the Shire, I believe he probably would've had little problem with destroying it.

I'm not so sure, Legolas. Didn't Tolkien say in one of his Letters that Frodo's task was an impossible one, in that no one could voluntarily have destroyed the Ring? Even without the passing of time, I believe that the power of the Ring, at its strongest there where it was created and so near to its Master, would have overcome him.

And if Frodo could not have done it, I do not believe that anyone in Middle-earth could have done. Even the most powerful, namely Gandalf and Galadriel, revealed their fear that they would succumb to the Ring were they to take it. The only conceivable exception is Tom Bombadil, but the reasons why he was not pressed into service were well-aired at the Council of Elrond.

Gandalf knew, or at least suspected, that no one could destroy it willingly. His plan was to get it to Mount Doom and trust in Eru. And he was vindicated.

[Eol Telemnar]

If I were them, I WOULD force him, and if he did not, I would probably kill him [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]. It would be better that him forced to destroy it or killed, then someone else destroy it, then, Sauron could not come back, because he would be dead. then again, then their will be no fellowship of the ring, the two towers, or the return of the king [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]