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Old 07-09-2007, 09:52 AM   #1
MatthewM
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Tolkien Arwen vs. Galadriel

Two beautiful Elven ladies-

Éomer chose Arwen, Gimli chose Galadriel.

Who would you say is fairest? (Keep your axes at home!)
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Old 07-09-2007, 09:58 AM   #2
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After I see them I'll let you know.
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Old 07-09-2007, 10:21 AM   #3
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After I see them I'll let you know.
Lol!

Well, movie wise, Galadriel. In the books, probably Arwen, because I like Eomer better than Gimli. Actually, I think that dark hair is very beautiful, so, yeh.
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:51 AM   #4
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Movie-wise, I'll say Arwen. There was one part in the film where she was particularly beautiful: in the "Fellowship", when Aragorn was replacing the shards of Narsil and Arwen walked in to comfort and advise him.

That maturity reflected her age and (certainly) her accumulated wisdom from such a long life. For the rest of the trilogy, she sat around on a couch, brooding and crying, unfortunately. But that part with Aragorn, somehow, made her incredibly beautiful.
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Old 07-10-2007, 06:01 AM   #5
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Tolkien

In the movies: Deffinitly Galadriel. . .

In the books: GALADRIEL ! ! ! I am like Gimli here. . .if anyone says a anything against me beloved Galadriel, then I shall hunt them down and make them eat their own words.
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Old 07-10-2007, 06:05 AM   #6
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A topic for the guys

Movie-wise I was annoyed by Arwen, especially in the 'ranger caught off his' --- no I won't say it! Book wise, Arwen was a bit of a sook who really only made a banner and sacrificed her immortality (pfft, anyone can do that ) Galadriel, however, was a butt-kicking, intelligent, powerful temptress, who could rebel against the Valar and woo dwarves! The latter being the more impressive and sacrificial...

Anywho, Galadriel all the way.
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Old 07-10-2007, 06:30 AM   #7
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Arwen's beauty is akin to Luthien's
Quote:
Originally Posted by Many Meetings, FotR
So it was that Frodo saw her whom few mortals had yet seen; Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of Luthien had come on earth again; and she was called Undomiel, for she was the Evenstar of her people.
while Galadriel is simply described as beautiful
Quote:
Originally Posted by The mirror of Galadriel, FotR
Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord; and they were grave and beautiful.
True enough, the Silmarillion mentions Galadriel as the most beautiful of all the house of Finwe.
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:23 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne View Post
In the movies: Deffinitly Galadriel. . .

In the books: GALADRIEL ! ! ! I am like Gimli here. . .if anyone says a anything against me beloved Galadriel, then I shall hunt them down and make them eat their own words.
Now Rune, even Gimli, he of the "Three Hairs", had to concede that Eomer had a point when the latter pointed out that Galadriel, when seen in Arwen's company, had to take second place.

So as far as the books go - Arwen, though given how unusually beautiful Galadriel's hair colour is said to be (gold with silvery highlights as if it had trapped the light of the Two Trees ) she might stake a claim to having the world's most beautiful hair.
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Old 07-10-2007, 12:26 PM   #9
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Movie-wise I was annoyed by Arwen, especially in the 'ranger caught off his' --- no I won't say it! Book wise, Arwen was a bit of a sook who really only made a banner and sacrificed her immortality (pfft, anyone can do that ) Galadriel, however, was a butt-kicking, intelligent, powerful temptress, who could rebel against the Valar and woo dwarves! The latter being the more impressive and sacrificial...

Anywho, Galadriel all the way.
For the first part, I agree with you entirely.

As to the second part, at least half of it was false. (Butt-kicking? Wooing Dwarves?) Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(even though that many exclaimation points in a row are gramatically incorrect...)

Not to make an arguement of it, you are free to have your own opinions, Galadriel didn't do much more than Arwen in the LotR, and mostly what she did in the Silm was act like a silly adventure seeker who wanted to see new lands. ( I realise this may sound mean, but don't take it that way. Galadriel's is cool, and I'm not even totally sure which I like better, Arwen or Galariel.)

On an other hand, mayby not THE other hand, I also understand that you may not have been entirely serious when you wrote that, or you may have been a very small amount sarcastic( and I don't mean that sarcasticly(sp))

Am I making myself at all clear? I always feel as if I sound ticked off or fault finding when I write these kinds of posts, while that's not at all how I mean them. I just happen to like silly little debates about nothing.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:50 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Raynor View Post
Arwen's beauty is akin to Luthien's

while Galadriel is simply described as beautiful

True enough, the Silmarillion mentions Galadriel as the most beautiful of all the house of Finwe.
These quotes will do you no good as this thread is about who we think is the fairest. . .not who is described as being the most beautiful.

and you must not forget that beauty is a subjective thing. . . so even though Tolkien might say that Luthien (and Arwen) is fairest, it might not be the truth for everybody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morwen
Now Rune, even Gimli, he of the "Three Hairs", had to concede that Eomer had a point when the latter pointed out that Galadriel, when seen in Arwen's company, had to take second place
Gimli forgave Eomer of his words, but I do not think that he admited to Arwen being fairer. . . and neither will I !
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Old 07-10-2007, 07:51 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne View Post
These quotes will do you no good as this thread is about who we think is the fairest. . .not who is described as being the most beautiful.

and you must not forget that beauty is a subjective thing. . . so even though Tolkien might say that Luthien (and Arwen) is fairest, it might not be the truth for everybody.



Gimli forgave Eomer of his words, but I do not think that he admited to Arwen being fairer. . . and neither will I !
It wasn't forgiving Eomer, it was mearly understanding what you said in your second paragraph. Beauty is a subjective thing.
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Old 07-10-2007, 08:02 PM   #12
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It wasn't forgiving Eomer, it was mearly understanding what you said in your second paragraph. Beauty is a subjective thing.
exactly! and after realising this he forgave him
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:46 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne View Post
Tolkien might say that Luthien (and Arwen) is fairest, it might not be the truth for everybody.
Hm, but without any image of either of them, what would make particular "ratings" differ? After all, this "universal" standard of beauty does seem to exist in Arda. As for Gimli, it may be that he liked Galadriel more due to their... "history"/empathy. Well, not that I want to spoil your guys' fun .
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Old 07-11-2007, 02:03 AM   #14
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They are beautiful in their own rights. Movie and book. Although the part of me thinking that Galadriel is really superior to Arwen in many ways (like the wisdom of many ages) makes me biased in favor of the Lady of the Golden Wood.
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Old 07-11-2007, 03:45 AM   #15
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Finduilas, actually Rune wasn't joking about Galadriel's powerful butt-kicking temptress. Tolkien says Galadriel is the most powerful of the Noldor save for Feanor...must be a pretty good butt-kicker to get that award....
Quote:
'Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except FŰanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years...and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth.'~Unfinished Tales; History of Galadriel and Celeborn
This might be inconsistant with what is in The Silmarillion, because Christopher remarks that his father revised Galadriel and Celeborn's story a bit more and made them 'more important.'

Now as far as Gimli's fatuation with Galadriel...I think it is a classic example of 'amour courtois' or 'courtly love.' The amour courtois was a popular style of poetry starting in France around the 12th century and going on for nearly 200 years. It is the classical story of a lowly, or 'inferior' person's admiration for an aristocratic lady who he knows is unobtainable. The amour courtois is actually seen as one of the truer love, as it is about the love and admiration between two people. It is not someone who only falls in love with another, because of another term of the time...'chanson de geste' (or 'songs of war.')...meaning someone falls in love because of another person's 'greatness' or 'feets of courage in war.'

Interesting as we can apply Eowyn's 'love' for Aragorn falling under 'chanson de geste.' Eowyn doesn't love Aragorn because of Aragorn himself, she loves what Aragorn is, not who he is. She sees Aragorn as this great man that could give her what she wants...and that is getting her out of 'her cage.' But, as all happy endings go Eowyn finds her own boy toy Faramir.

Where Gimli's admiration for Galadriel is sparked because of Galadriel's beauty and kindness to Gimli, not because he sees Galadriel as someone who could be used to his own glory/benefit. Hence why Galadriel gives Gimli three strands of her hair when he asks, and why she sends Feanor packing.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:33 AM   #16
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Movie-wise, I'll say Arwen. There was one part in the film where she was particularly beautiful: in the "Fellowship", when Aragorn was replacing the shards of Narsil and Arwen walked in to comfort and advise him.

That maturity reflected her age and (certainly) her accumulated wisdom from such a long life. For the rest of the trilogy, she sat around on a couch, brooding and crying, unfortunately. But that part with Aragorn, somehow, made her incredibly beautiful.

I agree, though I think she's most beautiful either when the Fellowship are about to leave Rivendell, or when Aragorn has the flashback.
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:35 AM   #17
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Silmaril

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Originally Posted by Raynor View Post
Hm, but without any image of either of them, what would make particular "ratings" differ? After all, this "universal" standard of beauty does seem to exist in Arda. As for Gimli, it may be that he liked Galadriel more due to their... "history"/empathy. Well, not that I want to spoil your guys' fun .
Even if Tolkien had written "Arwen is the fairest, it is not up for debate", this thread asks you to look beyond that!

Who did you find to be more beautiful in the movies?

And if you can still remember how you pictured the two when reading LotR for the very first time. . .who did you imagine to be most beautiful?
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:40 AM   #18
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Quote:
But, as all happy endings go Eowyn finds her own boy toy Faramir.
Heheh, when some beautiful powerful elf comes along and steals your secret love, swallow your pride and go for his best man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finduilas
On an other hand, mayby not THE other hand, I also understand that you may not have been entirely serious when you wrote that, or you may have been a very small amount sarcastic( and I don't mean that sarcasticly(sp))
Sarcastic? Moi? I'm never sarcastic, never...
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:51 AM   #19
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For me, it's Arwen, in both cases. Interestingly enough, an article in the Psychology Today, argues that there are "objective" reasons for us to like blond girls, that is, we interpret the color of the hair to mean that person is younger. Of course, in this particular case, it couldn't be further from the truth...

Anyway, I would still like to mention that there really is no base for personal comparison, regardless the subjective/objective position, as there is simply is too little information. I presume that, like Gimli, we simply have to set aside our beauty standards, as we cannot apply them, and resort to how their story affected us each. That is, it seems to me that this thread is about who we liked most, not a beauty contest. But nevermind me now
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:29 AM   #20
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...Galadriel's hair colour is said to be (gold with silvery highlights as if it had trapped the light of the Two Trees ) she might stake a claim to having the world's most beautiful hair.
Gold with silver highlights?
*looks at own hair*

I never knew that going grey was a good thing!

I think that the way I pictured them, and also the way they were both depicted in the movie, represent such different types of beauty, it's almost an apples/oranges comparison. Galadriel is older; more powerful; more exotic; more elvish (genetically, even!); Arwen is youthful by comparison and more transitory (by choice) - she is a second Luthien in this sense, although Luthien was certainly more heroic. Galadriel is noon, Arwen is evening, I suppose; Galadriel seems to represent the glory of a time that is passing away, Arwen the ending itself and the transition.

I have to give my vote to Galadriel; but only for such subjective reasons as being a link to the Silmarillion and sharing my hair color.
Plus, she had a cooler house...
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:30 AM   #21
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Hmm... it's true that we don't have actually any solid information in the books which would seem to be enough for influencing our personal, subjective views. All we have is "This one was the fairest..." etc. One would say a reader can say who was fairest according to the book, but it seems very strange to think that a reader could form his own personal opinon (it will be interesting to ask f.ex. Rune on what he bases his choice). If we had a picture, then of course, you can say about a picture of Arwen that you think it more beautiful than that of Galadriel (or vice versa ). It may be that people are influenced in their subconscious by some illustration they have seen (not speaking at all of those who saw the film first), but someone may not? And in that case, is it just that people have formed in their mind the images of Arwen and Galadriel based on the narration, and so they in fact choose between their own two creations? Isn't that interesting?

And now to my answer to the main topic question, which will be probably more seen in the contrast of what I said above.. My opinion is formed very clearly. I'm all for Galadriel In the movie as well, but especially and mainly in book. Which brings an interesting question, if the opinion on the movie characters - whatever the actresses may look like - is "pre-influenced" by the choice made on the book characters? (of course only for those who have read the book prior to seeing the film)
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:31 AM   #22
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Finduilas, actually Rune wasn't joking about Galadriel's powerful butt-kicking temptress. Tolkien says Galadriel is the most powerful of the Noldor save for Feanor...must be a pretty good butt-kicker to get that award....
My arguement was against the term "butt-kicking". I personally find this, though occasionally amusing, generally degrading and not at all the way I want to see a character. So if Galadriel was "butt-kicking" all the more reason to dislike her.

But also, was she a temptress? I mean really, if she was, she would have taken the ring.

Is it just me, or are people picking who they like better, or who they think are more pretty? It seems as if many are saying which they like better.

Oh, and I beleive it was Sixth Wizard not Rune who first said that.
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Old 07-11-2007, 12:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Is it just me, or are people picking who they like better, or who they think are more pretty? It seems as if many are saying which they like better.
Can you divide it like that? But this far I think only Six (and you, and some who reacted a little to it) made a discussion concerning other things than their looks...
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Old 07-11-2007, 12:47 PM   #24
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Can you divide it like that?
Well I think so.

[QUOTE = Legate of Amon Lanc;527825]But this far I think only Six (and you, and some who reacted a little to it) made a discussion concerning other things than their looks...[/QUOTE]

Well yes, discussion, but my vote was for Arwen in the books and Galadriel in the movie, totally regardless of the characters of either.
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Old 07-11-2007, 01:15 PM   #25
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Heheh, when some beautiful powerful elf comes along and steals your secret love, swallow your pride and go for his best man.
Eowyn. Always the bridesmaid and never the bride

Anyway, have you guys thought about how Galadriel's power might be a bit scary? She's always reminded me just a tiny bit of Maggie Thatcher. Not that there were communities of miners to smash in Lothlorien or a Liverpool to lay waste to, but that she was frighteningly powerful and enjoyed that power too. Celebrimbor tried to impress her with something that would give her even greater power. A bit like the Geoffrey Howe of Middle-earth? Meh-heh-heh...

Or do you find that kind of female power thrilling?

Maybe she's also a bit like Hillary Clinton or Cherie Blair? Arwen is more like Sarah Brown. The inspiration behind Gords'/Aragorn's mission...
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Old 07-11-2007, 02:58 PM   #26
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We, simple once-eastern-bloc folk, know Maggie only from second-hand rumour (twisted?) and from the songs of Roger Waters, therefore I will not even come to think of her when I imagine Galadriel's possible misuse of power... however, as Six said, there is that terrible image of Galadriel as temptress able to control everything she wants. However, the very important thing on her is that she rejected that choice - while the choice depended only on herself. In that I find, so to say, some sort of redemptive power, or how should I describe it. Some sort of an example, you know. I don't know, but I find that aspect very important. A beautiful lady who at first wants, but later rejects the power (in this case of the Ring, leading even to the rulership of whole Middle-Earth) is really stunning character, literally even more interesting than just someone who does not want the power in the first place (thus has it easy to reject it).

But I think we are getting faar off-topic here. This is exactly what Finduilas said about discussing characters and not looks. We should indeed discuss just who is the fairest. And even considering all I have said above about Galadriel's character, I still find her the one more beautiful just for the sake of it.
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Old 07-11-2007, 05:45 PM   #27
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This seems to me as if it aught to be a poll.

Is there any Skwerl for off topicness?
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Old 07-11-2007, 08:51 PM   #28
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For myself, I never found Cate especially beautiful, and Liv is OK but no great shakes. I propose:

G- Grace Kelly or Ingrid Bergman
A- Hedy Lamarr or Liz Taylor (or Isabella if you cast her mama as G)
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:27 PM   #29
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Quote:
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This seems to me as if it aught to be a poll.

Is there any Skwerl for off topicness?
I think it is an off-topic owl. ..
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:21 PM   #30
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Just wanted to point out that I was referring more towards your own image of the characters from the books than the movies, but I see no wrong in comparing (through personal preference and opinion) the beauty of Liv vs. Cate - in which case I would have to go with Liv. Cate is not too far behind, however.
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Old 07-12-2007, 06:37 AM   #31
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Tolkien tells us the basic facts about the two ladies, but beauty is a factor that can't be described. Therefore, when reading the book, we can only see them through the eyes of the other characters. The words of the humblest of the Fellowship, Samwise, describing Galadriel, have always fascinated me:
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Beautiful she is, sir! Lovely! Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffydowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di'monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with flowers in her hair in springtime.
TT, 'The Window on the West'
I rather agree with those who think that comparing the two is like apples and oranges, but if I had to choose, it would probably be Galadriel because of the above passage.
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Old 07-12-2007, 08:07 AM   #32
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If, in the Silmarillion, Tolkien says that Galadriel was fairest of the House of FinwŰ, then that suggests that there must be a definite answer out there somewhere, and that it is not a matter of different opinions. Tolkien seems to say that the two are equally fair when he makes the analogy between morning and evening, so that would be my answer: equals.

(Although that raises the issue of who wrote the Silmarillion!)
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Old 07-12-2007, 10:39 AM   #33
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I honestly do not hold up either actress from the movies as a model of beauty. (Now Miranda Otto on the other hand...)

In the book, it's hard to say, having not seen either of them. I am sure that many of the impressions (such as of Eomer and Gimli) come not so much from appearance as from presence.

Galadriel had issues of her own from earlier Ages, and is obviously made of sterner stuff than Arwen. As a Ringbearer, her responsibility and experience was so much greater than Arwen, who was but a maiden of Imladris. She bore no Ring, nor responsibilities of leadership.

Arwen's love and devotion for Aragorn is to be admired, although her actions after the death of King Ellesar are a bit selfish. (Abandoning her children to wander Lothlorien in grief.)
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Old 07-12-2007, 01:37 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor View Post

Arwen's love and devotion for Aragorn is to be admired, although her actions after the death of King Ellesar are a bit selfish. (Abandoning her children to wander Lothlorien in grief.)
Were they really, though? I do not see her actions as selfish.

That would be a good question for a new topic, indeed.
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Old 07-12-2007, 09:54 PM   #35
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I was certain it had been already discussed, under a title like "Arwen not a good mom?" but a forum and a google search did not turn up anything.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:43 AM   #36
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Just a quick little correction if I may...I'm not as good at French as I used to be, it's been a while. Anyway:

'chanson de geste' actually translates to 'songs of heroic deeds.' In my post I said 'songs of war' but the French word for war is 'guerre.'

Just a little correction, I think this can still be applied to Eowyn, as she is more infatuated with Aragorn's impressive elven and dunedain friends...and she believes Aragorn can give the 'heroic/courageous' life she desires:
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"Shall I always be chosen?" she said bitterly. "Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown find food and beds when they return?"~The Passing of the Grey Company
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:22 AM   #37
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What would be the male equivalent of an Arwen Vs Galadriel face-off?

Faramir Vs Boromir?

Aragorn Vs Boromir?

Aragorn Vs Legolas?

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Old 07-13-2007, 09:03 AM   #38
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What would be the male equivalent of an Arwen Vs Galadriel face-off?

Faramir Vs Boromir?

Aragorn Vs Boromir?

Aragorn Vs Legolas?

Aragorn Vs Legolas.
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:09 AM   #39
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None of them Lal...It would be

Denethor vs. Faramir

The hottest Steward vs. The hottest Steward's steamy son soaked in oil

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Old 07-13-2007, 10:19 AM   #40
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No brainer then ..... Faramir..... soaked in oil or not ..... poor love, makes him seem like a cormorant in an oil slick ...however I have detergent....

PS If it is a choice between (half) elf boys - then the Finrod/ Elrond choice would be tricksy...
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