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Old 12-12-2012, 02:22 PM   #81
elbenprincess
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Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring.

It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm.
Yes, but Elrond defended Rivendell with an army but not with his innate power.

Where it is said that he took out all 9 wraiths at the same time? That would be really impressive.
I know that the Witch King would not dare to face the white ring (Galadriel with nenya) and therefore went arond Lorien.

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"But the power of the White Ring he would not defy, nor enter yet into Lórien."
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Who told you the more powerful the more tempted you are? That is rubbish.
Yes, I agree, I said wrong, I think she maybe was the most in need for it, or she felt that she had the most need, Lorien was very dear to her and it surely hurt her to know that it would fade in the end. And therefore she was so tempted.

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Everyone had much to lose and much to gain by using the Ring and if we are honest none more so than Aragorn of Gandalf.
With Aragon I agree but why had Gandalf more to loose than Galadriel? I wouldn´t say it´s the case, if they would fail Gandalf wold just return to Aman, I doubt the Valar would punish him, it would not be after all his fault.

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Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest?

She does reject this train of thought, but at the same time she greatly desire Frodo to offer her the ring. Characters with pride without majesty do not.
I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“

"Characters with pride without majesty do not" What do you mean? Galadriel, because she was proud was tempted, Arwen would not because she was majestic? I rather think Arwen wasn´t tempted, cause she never had the ambition of her grandmother and wasn´t interested in ruling people.

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You keep forgetting that the Vanyar were the ones, who actually defeated Morgoth.
Yes, but without the Noldor it might have been too late to save Elves and Men, they made the grondwork and hindered Morgoth to expand his might.

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It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway.
It´s nice for some people, but other people just want more in life, they want have something they can call their own, for which they worked hard for, went through many dangers and can finally be proud of it. The kings were surely very proud of their kingdoms and it is a shame that all was destroyed. In Aman, everything is there from the beginning, you don´t have to work for it. It´s not that the Noldor didn´t want to life in peace with their family, they just wanted to have it in ME and not be dependent on the Valar.

Calling them power hungry is too harsh, it sounds as if they come to ME and suppress every elf they meet and force them to accept them as rulers, I rather think that they wanted to prove what they are able to set up, without the help of the Valar. It´s just a shame that the Valar reacted this way, OK, they went the same time Feanor went, but most didn´t supported him but still they all are treated equally, even those who are guiltless in the kinslaying, that is unfair.

Yes, in the end they all wanted to return to Aman, but then they never said that they wanted to stay in ME forever. That Valar should just have let them make their experiences and after that welcome them back (what they later of course did) IMHO the ban was unnecessary, it seems to me they felt insulted only because they didn´t followed their orders. It is their land and the elves have to follow their rules, but they are not their property.

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The Valar had said several times the elves were free to come and go as they pleased.
OK, but why not at the time it actually happened? Only because the hour is evil? OK, problem of the elves, not theirs.

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Manwe is King of Arda. It is his business. He is the king and rightful ruler. He is put there by Illuvatar and understands HIS will better than anyone else. That sort of reasoning is how Melkor became Morgoth.
That´s unfair, mortals don´t need to ask when they want to move away. Only because Nolor were looking for adventure and wanted a tiny bit of the land to rule does´t mean one of them becomes the next Morgoth. I see that ruling wish as trying to see what you are able to, if you can built something of your own. For us, in our society, the need to realize ones full potential is quite usual. So why not for the elves?

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No the Noldor did many crimes and were rightly punished. They had a choice to reject the actions of Feanor and his people, but instead they followed him.
But there were the ones who were not guilty, so why should they return and not all followed Feanor, he may be the one who set all in motion, but most followed Fingolfin and the other princes, only because you go in the same direction doesn´t mean you follow the person.

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Tolkien is clear that there is a shadow over them. This first came about when Morgoth started spreading his lies. If they were wiser like the Vanyar or less proud like the Teleri they would have rejected him. Pride like always was the downfall for the Noldor.
You can not blame only Morgoth, the Noldor had something in them what make them restless and in need for more knowlege, I´m sure they would have left at one point anyway, even without Morgoth or Feanor. Maybe it would have taken longer, for in one version Galadriel seems to be the first who had the wish to go to ME, sure there were others who wanted to see ME.

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She did indeed wish to depart from Valinor and to go into the wide world of Middle-earth for the exercise of her talents. ... This desire of Galadriel's was, it seems, know to Manwë, and he had not forbidden her; but nor had she been given formal leave to depart. Pondering what she might do Galadriel's thoughts turned to the ships of the Teleri, and she went for a while to dwell with her mother's kindred in Alqualondë
I doubt Galadriel was the one thinking about it.

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Manwe is the rightful ruler. It takes humility to accept that there are people in the world with a higher rank. Morgoth did not like this and the Noldor followed. Eru made it that way. Your words were the same lies that Morgoth told them.
I doubt Galadriel had a authority problem, she just had an other idea in how she wants to live her life.

I know she
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felt confined in the tutelage of Aman
but not because the Valar were the lords and ladies but becase there was nothing what she could achieve on her own, so she left.

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If they were wiser like the Vanyar or less proud like the Teleri they would have rejected him. Pride like always was the downfall for the Noldor
People who question the circumstances (the Noldor) are not as easy to handle like the ones who are yes-men and yes-women (the vanyar). Pride is not always bad, it depends on what you do with your pride, Thingol became proud and so was killed, Galadriel was proud too, but she didn´t fell as hard as her kin, but still she is described as extemely proud. You can be proud but still do the right thing. Her kin had the problem that they were proud but they lacked the tactical insight Galadriel had. Fingolfin went to a suicide mission and arcieved nothing with it (OK I know he was wounded for all eternity but that doesn´t lead to his downfall) and Turgon rejected Ulmos advise.

Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-12-2012 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:50 PM   #82
cellurdur
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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
Yes, but Elrond defended Rivendell with an army but not with his innate power.

Where it is said that he took out all 9 wraiths at the same time? That would be really impressive.
I know that the Witch King would not dare to face the white ring (Galadriel with nenya) and therefore went arond Lorien.
Galadriel too had an army at her back and it was bigger than the one at Rivendell. Elrond controlling the must be down to his power. Rivendell also had a spell making it virtually impossible for enemies to find.
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Yes, I agree, I said wrong, I think she maybe was the most in need for it, or she felt that she had the most need, Lorien was very dear to her and it surely hurt her to know that it would fade in the end. And therefore she was so tempted.
That's not true and you know it. The entire world and everyone good in it was dear to Gandalf. Where as Aragorn had one chance to return his people to their former glory or lose it and Arwen too.
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With Aragon I agree but why had Gandalf more to loose than Galadriel? I wouldn´t say it´s the case, if they would fail Gandalf wold just return to Aman, I doubt the Valar would punish him, it would not be after all his fault.
It's because Gandalf cared about everything good in ME and wanted to save it all, not just one place as he tells Denethor. It was not only down to duty, but love as well.
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I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“
Yes she was joking about it, but at the same time it was something she had considered.
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"Characters with pride without majesty do not" What do you mean? Galadriel, because she was proud was tempted, Arwen would not because she was majestic? I rather think Arwen wasn´t tempted, cause she never had the ambition of her grandmother and wasn´t interested in ruling people.
Sorry I meant to say "characters with majesty without pride". Arwen had ambitions to marry Aragorn, which depended on him regaining the throne. Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.
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Yes, but without the Noldor it might have been too late to save Elves and Men, they made the grondwork and hindered Morgoth to expand his might.
The Sindar were safe in Doriath for a while and Men had rejected Eru; a worse crime than the Noldor had committed.
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It´s nice for some people, but other people just want more in life, they want have something they can call their own, for which they worked hard for, went through many dangers and can finally be proud of it. The kings were surely very proud of their kingdoms and it is a shame that all was destroyed. In Aman, everything is there from the beginning, you don´t have to work for it. It´s not that the Noldor didn´t want to life in peace with their family, they just wanted to have it in ME and not be dependent on the Valar.
That's rubbish. The Noldor worked hard and built Tiron with their hands. Things were not just there from the beginning. Many of them regretted leaving their great works behind. It was due to pride and arrogance. They wanted to be the greatest people around, rather than the lowest as they were in Valinor.
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Calling them power hungry is too harsh, it sounds as if they come to ME and suppress every elf they meet and force them to accept them as rulers, I rather think that they wanted to prove what they are able to set up, without the help of the Valar. It´s just a shame that the Valar reacted this way, OK, they went the same time Feanor went, but most didn´t supported him but still they all are treated equally, even those who are guiltless in the kinslaying, that is unfair.
They were power hungry and immediately came to ME and started usurping land that belonged to Thingol, who was king of all Beleriand. If they wanted to show what they could do against Morogth they got what they wanted. If they wanted realms of their own without the power of the Valar they got it. They all died except Galadriel and all of their realms were destroyed. That's what they got without the Valar.
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Yes, in the end they all wanted to return to Aman, but then they never said that they wanted to stay in ME forever. That Valar should just have let them make their experiences and after that welcome them back (what they later of course did) IMHO the ban was unnecessary, it seems to me they felt insulted only because they didn´t followed their orders. It is their land and the elves have to follow their rules, but they are not their property.
The whole world is under their rule. You seem to not want to accept this. Manwe is king of Arda too. If you reject the council of the Valar, break their rules in their own home then why should they allow you back? Just like with giving men Numenor the Valar were merciful.
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OK, but why not at the time it actually happened? Only because the hour is evil? OK, problem of the elves, not theirs.
Yes and this is why they were punished. They not only left at an evil time, but under a banned leader and the majority committed even great crimes.
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That´s unfair, mortals don´t need to ask when they want to move away. Only because Nolor were looking for adventure and wanted a tiny bit of the land to rule does´t mean one of them becomes the next Morgoth. I see that ruling wish as trying to see what you are able to, if you can built something of your own. For us, in our society, the need to realize ones full potential is quite usual. So why not for the elves?
Again that is not true. The greatest works of the Noldor were performed in Valinor. That reasoning is how Morgoth came about. The Noldor did not except Manwe as ruler of the world. That apart they insulted the Valar in their own homes.
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But there were the ones who were not guilty, so why should they return and not all followed Feanor, he may be the one who set all in motion, but most followed Fingolfin and the other princes, only because you go in the same direction doesn´t mean you follow the person.
Yes it does. They may have followed Fingolfin, but urged on by Feanor and due to the lies of Morgoth.
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You can not blame only Morgoth, the Noldor had something in them what make them restless and in need for more knowlege, I´m sure they would have left at one point anyway, even without Morgoth or Feanor. Maybe it would have taken longer, for in one version Galadriel seems to be the first who had the wish to go to ME, sure there were others who wanted to see ME.
Leaving was fine, but it's the reason they wanted to leave. It was selfish and greedy. Similar to when the Numenoreans started returning to ME and conquering lands. It was the first sign that they were beginning to fall.
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I doubt Galadriel was the one thinking about it.

I doubt Galadriel had a authority problem, she just had an other idea in how she wants to live her life.

I know she but not because the Valar were the lords and ladies but becase there was nothing what she could achieve on her own, so she left.
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Pride mastered Galadriel and the other Noldor. They knew they had acted foolishly when they followed Feanor. They knew it was the wrong time Galadriel included, but they could not conquer their pride. That was their failing.

I repeat that it is no coincidence than the only descendant of Finwe, without the intense pride of others, Finarfin is able to return.

Her(Galadriel) pride was unwilling to return a defeated suppliant for pardon

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People who question the circumstances (the Noldor) are not as easy to handle like the ones who are yes-men and yes-women (the vanyar). Pride is not always bad, it depends on what you do with your pride, Thingol became proud and so was killed, Galadriel was proud too, but she didn´t fell as hard as her kin, but still she is described as extemely proud. You can be proud but still do the right thing. Her kin had the problem that they were proud but they lacked the tactical insight Galadriel had. Fingolfin went to a suicide mission and arcieved nothing with it (OK I know he was wounded for all eternity but that doesn´t lead to his downfall) and Turgon rejected Ulmos advise.
Those are the same words that that Morgoth used. Pride always leads to a fall. The ones, who are humble always end up better. Finarfin faired better than his brothers, Tuor faired better than Turin, Aragorn faired better than Isildur, Faramir better than Boromir.

In the case of Galadriel we are told pride made her do the wrong thing. Hence she was banned.

It is not Galadriel alone, I constantly reference all the Princes/Ladies of the Noldor except Finarfin, because they all had the same weakness and were consequently all died (except Galadriel) who lost everything.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:52 AM   #83
elbenprincess
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Galadriel too had an army at her back and it was bigger than the one at Rivendell. Elrond controlling the must be down to his power. Rivendell also had a spell making it virtually impossible for enemies to find.
Yes she had an army, but it´s explicitly stated that
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besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.
It seems Galadriel the the main reason Lorien was safe.

I always thught Rivendell was safe because it was located in a valley, I never read something about a spell making Rivendell safe.

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That's not true and you know it. The entire world and everyone good in it was dear to Gandalf. Where as Aragorn had one chance to return his people to their former glory or lose it and Arwen too.
Yes, it may be sure that Gandalf and Aragon would be in greater need and therefore greater tempted, but maybe Galadriel felt that she was in the greatest need, that would be subjective thinking on her part, it´s dependent on the character and how despaired one person is, maybe Galadriel is at this point the most despaired. (besides, the entire world and everyone good in it was dear to her too)
I mean, look at her lament
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wherein the stars tremble in the song of her voice, holy and queenly. Who now shall refill the cup for me?
For now the Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the Stars, from Mount Everwhite has uplifted her hands like clouds, and all paths are drowned deep in shadow;
or
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"I grieve in Middle-earth, for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home."
That´s just my take on it, I know Gollum was probably not despaired, but you can´t compare them, she had her own reasonings to be so tempted and I don´t think it was because of her power longing, cause at this stage I don´t think she longed for power that much any more.

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Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.
Yes it is ironic, but that´s not something she achieved herself, like I said she was just lcky to marry Aragon.

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Men had rejected Eru
How that? I should read the Silm again

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They were power hungry and immediately came to ME and started usurping land that belonged to Thingol, who was king of all Beleriand.
Yo situate it in such a negative light, Thingol was apparently OK with it, even giving Finrod a tip and unless I´m wrong, they all respected him as their hight king, didn´t they? Ulmo supported that too, helping Fingon.

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The whole world is under their rule. You seem to not want to accept this. Manwe is king of Arda too. If you reject the council of the Valar, break their rules in their own home then why should they allow you back? Just like with giving men Numenor the Valar were merciful.
So there is the rule not to leave Aman without permission?!?! If that´s the case than the Noldor really never were free. Of course they are free, I know that, your comment just don´t fit, if you leave out the kinslayers, then they just rejected their council to stay and that justifies a ban?!?! So the Eldar of Valinor are expected always to agree with the Valar in all matters and are never to confess their own opinion?!?!
Just for exemple, there is an elf on Tol Eressea (who has done no crime) and the Valar, or one Valar commands them to come to Valimar and then the elf is not in the mood for that (for whatever reason), would the Valar punish him or her?
I think I don´t get the relationship between the Valar and elves, how they life with each other.

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That's rubbish. The Noldor worked hard and built Tiron with their hands. Things were not just there from the beginning.
But for the younger Noldor (like Galadriel) it was, I beleive Tirion was compleated, so she had not the opportunity to be a part of the people who achieved something in their life.

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Again that is not true. The greatest works of the Noldor were performed in Valinor.
I disagree, besides the Silmaril, the greatest works of the Noldor were their kingdoms in ME. IMHO

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Leaving was fine, but it's the reason they wanted to leave. It was selfish and greedy.
I don´t think wanting a own realm is greedy and selfish, the elves of Lorien for example were happy to have a leader again.
Was Turgon selfish or greedy in building Gondolin? It was admired by many. Common elves would be happy that someone is coming who takes the reins.
You can´t work against an enemy if you aren´t organized, sure there was Thingol, but if there are too many people you need more then one king, or why are there 3 or 4 elven kings in aman? (Would Thingol be King in Aman again?)

And the princes never suppressed anyone, the common Noldor who followed obviously were content being under their rule.

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In the case of Galadriel we are told pride made her do the wrong thing. Hence she was banned.
She was even banned in a version where she wasn´t proud and was not with the Noldor and never saw Namo declaring the doom.

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but for the misfortune that before she set out the revolt of Fëonor broke out, and she became involved in the desperate measures of Manwe, and the ban on all emigration."
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Her(Galadriel) pride was unwilling to return a defeated suppliant for pardon
So you say that she wanted to return but was too proud to do so? I read it as she was too proud to return but didn´t wanted to return anyway.

Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-13-2012 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:52 AM   #84
cellurdur
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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
Yes she had an army, but it´s explicitly stated that

It seems Galadriel the the main reason Lorien was safe.

I always thught Rivendell was safe because it was located in a valley, I never read something about a spell making Rivendell safe.
That was one of the reasons the other was Elrond, just like with Galadriel. Gandalf himself says that Rivendell would be the very last to fall.
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Yes, it may be sure that Gandalf and Aragon would be in greater need and therefore greater tempted, but maybe Galadriel felt that she was in the greatest need, that would be subjective thinking on her part, it´s dependent on the character and how despaired one person is, maybe Galadriel is at this point the most despaired. (besides, the entire world and everyone good in it was dear to her too)
I mean, look at her lament or That´s just my take on it, I know Gollum was probably not despaired, but you can´t compare them, she had her own reasonings to be so tempted and I don´t think it was because of her power longing, cause at this stage I don´t think she longed for power that much any more.
It is due to the fault in her. Only after she rejects the Ring is her ban lifted. It's only then that she has realised why she was wrong and repented.
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Yes it is ironic, but that´s not something she achieved herself, like I said she was just lcky to marry Aragon.
Her claim to be Queen of Elves is something she had of her own merit. She rules all the elvish lands.
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How that? I should read the Silm again
It goes into deeper depth about this in Morgoth's ring. Men are not innocents abandoned by the Valar and corrupted by Morgoth. They had the fortune of Eru himself speaking to them, but they chose Morgoth.
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Yo situate it in such a negative light, Thingol was apparently OK with it, even giving Finrod a tip and unless I´m wrong, they all respected him as their hight king, didn´t they? Ulmo supported that too, helping Fingon.
Thingol was not happy with it and they did not respect him as the High King. The sons of Feanor even called him erroneously a Dark Elf, forgetting he had seen the light of the trees.
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So there is the rule not to leave Aman without permission?!?! If that´s the case than the Noldor really never were free. Of course they are free, I know that, your comment just don´t fit, if you leave out the kinslayers, then they just rejected their council to stay and that justifies a ban?!?! So the Eldar of Valinor are expected always to agree with the Valar in all matters and are never to confess their own opinion?!?!
Just for exemple, there is an elf on Tol Eressea (who has done no crime) and the Valar, or one Valar commands them to come to Valimar and then the elf is not in the mood for that (for whatever reason), would the Valar punish him or her?
I think I don´t get the relationship between the Valar and elves, how they life with each other.
You want it both ways. If you refuse the council and advise of the Valar then why should the Valar help you? If you choose to leave the home they granted you, why should they give you a chance to return? The elves are lucky the Valar are merciful. By all rights the Valar could just abandon the Noldor to fade in Middle Earth.
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But for the younger Noldor (like Galadriel) it was, I beleive Tirion was compleated, so she had not the opportunity to be a part of the people who achieved something in their life.
That was not the sole reason. They wanted power and wide lands to rule, they believed the lies of Morgoth. This cannot be escaped. The reasons the Noldor left were tainted.
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I disagree, besides the Silmaril, the greatest works of the Noldor were their kingdoms in ME. IMHO
NO city on ME was as fair as Tirion, which they built in Valinor.
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I don´t think wanting a own realm is greedy and selfish, the elves of Lorien for example were happy to have a leader again.
Was Turgon selfish or greedy in building Gondolin? It was admired by many. Common elves would be happy that someone is coming who takes the reins.
You can´t work against an enemy if you aren´t organized, sure there was Thingol, but if there are too many people you need more then one king, or why are there 3 or 4 elven kings in aman? (Would Thingol be King in Aman again?)
Yes wanting to rule is selfish. The kings should be there to serve the people. The Rangers are the perfect example. Even when they are denied the glory, prestige and honour they deserve, they never stop protecting their subjects. That is true nobility.

Slightly off topic, but I was reading why Cirdan had greater foresight than even Elrond. Tolkien being the sort of writer he was, needed to explain why Cirdan would have greater foresight than Elrond, who had divine blood. The answer is Cirdan greatly wanted to go to Valinor, to see the Two Trees and to meet his kin and close friend Olwe. Yet at the request of the Valar he stayed and helped those in Middle Earth. That is why the Valar rewarded him with such great foresight.

The Princes of the Noldor were thinking about themselves and not what was best for their people. This was selfish and based on pride.
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And the princes never suppressed anyone, the common Noldor who followed obviously were content being under their rule.
Yes, but they should have done what was best for their people and not only to extend their power and glory.
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She was even banned in a version where she wasn´t proud and was not with the Noldor and never saw Namo declaring the doom.
Yes, because she knew in her heart even in this version she should have gone back to seek council from the Valar about what should be done. In this version her pride leads her to leaving Aman to thwart Feanor. Either way pride led her to an unwise decision.

This is the difference between Glorfindel and the other princes like Fingon and Turgon. Glorfindel left only out of his kinship to Turgon and a desire to help his people. Though he was wrong to rebel his motives were selfless and he was rewarded.
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So you say that she wanted to return but was too proud to do so? I read it as she was too proud to return but didn´t wanted to return anyway.
No I am saying she KNEW it was the right thing to return, but was to proud to do the right thing and did what she wanted.

It's not a coincidence in Tolkien that people without pride ending up ruling.

Aragorn inherits the kingdom Isildur lost, Finarfin inherits the kingship that Fingolfin/Feanor lost. Arwen becomes the great Queen, that Galadriel never becomes.

That said Galadriel was very great and very powerful. She suffered for her mistakes and learned from them. She played a pivotal role in the destruction of Sauron and is rightly held in high esteem.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:01 PM   #85
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Arwen does not rule anywhere or anyone. She is merely Aragorn's queen consort. Compared to Galadriel she is a very dull character. She exists merely to to be some sort of reward or enticement for Aragorn.
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:43 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Mithalwen View Post
Arwen does not rule anywhere or anyone. She is merely Aragorn's queen consort. Compared to Galadriel she is a very dull character. She exists merely to to be some sort of reward or enticement for Aragorn.
As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:15 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.
I seriously don't want to enter this very furious-looking debate on this thread, but...

...Queen of Elves? Really? I have to admit, I have never been paying especial attention to Arwen (because if you ask me, her portrayal is boring - whatever can be said about the "beauty image of Lúthien", sure, but she really does not do much anything in the books, and that much is a fact; it's of course the author's doing, but that's it). But anyway, what I wanted to say: where did the "Queen of Elves" idea come from? I am not aware of anything like that being mentioned in the books. (Which horrifies me, because I thought I should know such things!) She is the queen of the renewed reunited kingdom, for sure, along with Aragorn. But Queen of Elves? No idea.

Most of the Elves had left Middle-Earth anyway, and those who stayed were mostly the wood-elves in Lórien, or also in Mirkwood, who certainly would not have suddenly accepted a random "queen of Elves" from elsewhere. They had been governing themselves for ages, so why now. And Rivendell Elves more or less all departed West.

Cellurdur, can you provide any quote about this, or anything?
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:16 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
The same applies to Elrond and Rivendell. The difference is Melian was up against Morgoth, Galadriel could not keep out Sauron. Without Numenor all of eastern Elvish Kingdoms would have been destroyed. Galadriel would not hope to take on the host of Sauron. Luthien actually DID take on the host of Morgoth.
But Arwen is not Luthien, no matter how similar they are.

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It's better to reject the temptation at the first test. This is usually better for you and all your friends. Compare the lives of the Noldor to the lives of the Vanyar.
Aye, but in order to reject it you have to be tempted.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
It's better to be so pure that you are never tempted in the first place.
Which is pretty much impossible. Even Sam was tempted, and with his love for Master Frodo he's near the purest being found in LOTR that had anything to do directly with the Ring.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
We do not know if Arwen was tempted or not. However, she did struggle more than Elrond, Aragorn and Gandalf. I forget that Elrond too was offered the ring at the Council. In the end the deed is all that matters, but it does show her personality was more tainted by lust for power than the others.
...and that her will thus was stronger than all the others, if she was able to qithstand such a strong temptation. Where are you getting at?

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
The Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth just like the Noldor, but they resisted it and did not fall under the shadow. This is to their credit. Again it seems odd that you respect Fingolfin for leading his people to destruction over a wiser ruler who kept his people safe. The Noldor leave to fight Morgoth having no clue about his true power for mainly selfish reasons. The Vanyar leave fully aware of Morgoth's might for selfless reasons. I respect the Vanyar far more than the Noldor on this. We will never see eye to eye on this matter.

What? Everyone has to strive to be good. Ingwe just made the right decisions so did not suffer. His people were untroubled and had happy lives. He was the High King of all elves.
In my opinion, being (hypothetically) perfect in a perfect society/environment is much easier than preserving even a strand of goodness in the midst of moral chaos and destruction. This applies to all characters. But for Fingolfin vs Ingwe the respect matter is more that just that. For all that Ingwe is the High King and a good boy, he is not great. Fingolfin's greatness trumps Ingwe's with no question. And so does Feanor's - if he's not the most flawed Elf of all times I'll eat my socks, but he is also the greatest, and in my eyes that is cause for respect.

However, most of the above is beside the point, and, as you said, we won't agree anyways, so I'm willing to drop the subject.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
If any average had this wisdom then why was she the first to notice? Why do the elves accept her as their queen? What do you mean she metaphorically gives Frodo her place? Arwen arranging Frodo's place on the boat has nothing to do with her being mortal. Or how do you explain Gimli, Sam and Bilbo all gaining a place. She was not being literal.
Don't tell me you don't think Elves aren't wise. Arwen is special, I do not deny that - quite the contrary, - but I do not think she is special in this way. The place on the boat was certainly metaphorical, but it was not hers in the full meaning to grant to Frodo. She could take it or refuse it, but you cannot realy give it to someone else. Just like Frodo could not actually give away the rest of his life to Sam, although he says he does - once again, metaphorically.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
No the same thing is said about Rivendell.

What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien. But have they the strength, have we the strength to withstand the enemy, the coming of Sauron at the last; when all else is overthrown?
'I have not the strength.' said Elron; 'neither have they'


Yes her defense is impressive, but how is it more impressive than Elrond's defense of Imladris? Elrond without the help of his ring defended Rivendell against Sauron in person with his entire army at his back. This was Sauron using the One Ring.

It is Elrond, who takes out all 9 wraiths at the same time when they attempt to enter his realm.
Elrond defends his realm in a very physical way. Yes, he has fighters like Glorfindel who have a "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) side to them, but still, the defense remains physical. Once, we see Elrond collaborating with nature to wipe out the Nazgul in a flood. But that was once again physical - he did not defeat them in a battle of wills, he merely swept them away.

Galadriel does more and goes beyond the physical - she actually goes and reads Sauron's mind and counters his plans before they are even put in action. Even Aragorn does more, by withstanding Sauron via Palantir.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Who told you the more powerful the more tempted you are? That is rubbish. Do you think Gollum was more powerful than Faramir? Or Boromir more powerful than Aragorn? The weakness is in the individual not their power. Of course with more innate power you can actually accomplish more.
Umm, Tolkien tells us that? Gandalf says so in The Shadow of the Past. The Ring has greater power over the more powerful people, and the more powerful you are without the Ring the worse you will be with it.

Boromir is not more powerful than Aragorn, certainly. The thing is that Aragorn is stronger than the temptation (regardless of its magnitude) and Boromir isn't.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
There is more to life than just fighting and wars. It's a shame that more people would not be happy with living in a paradise with their friends and family. The Noldor were power hungry and influenced by Morgoth. In the end it cost them and they were forced to return to Aman anyway.
Life in a paradise soon gets boring with nothing to do if everything is handed down. Most of the Noldor did not even imagine how far they will slide down upon taking their course. They did not want to spend an Age pointlessly fighting Morgoth. Some did not even want to fight him at all.

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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“
I would disagree here. I think that Galadriel really did contemplate about the Ring, perhaps even the taking of it by force. And she did make her decision then and there with Frodo and Sam present. But there is nothing bad about it.

I do not like going Biblical, but I can't for the moment think of a better example. Adam and Eve were good people in Eden. Was it hard? Not really, because it was the only thing available. In essence, they could not have been otherwise until the apple story. Do you admire them for being good when they just stepped into the world? It's like saying you admire a baby for being small.

Some many years later, though, it is much harder for people to be good, because they are not anymore living in paradise; they are surrounded by less than good things. And now you really do appreciate good people and good deeds. It's not to be taken for granted.

However, there are no people that are so pure they don't even consider it. They can't not consider it, because they live in it. You might say "He did not even think of betrayal", but what that really says is "He thought of it and rejected it immediately without further consideration". It is impossible to be absolutely pure. And if a person considers the wrong thing, but still does right, that speaks of perhaps a more tainted but a stronger person, because it requires a stronger will to overcome a greater moral dilemma and still do right.

Moral of the story, firstly, this relates to why I respect the tempted and undefeated Galadriel more than the untempted Arwen. Secondly, that everyone who had a connection to the Ring was tempted in some fashion, even if it is not written.


I still have some posts to read from this thread, but I have to go now. I think that we are just saying the same thing over and over again, and we won't even agree on it because we're looking at it from opposite sides. I propose this: I will not repeat what I've said before because we're just standing on different streets and it's not getting anyone anywhere. At least this way I hope we will be able to bring the discussion back to the original question.

I must say, however, it's a pleasure to debate such things here with you!
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:34 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
I seriously don't want to enter this very furious-looking debate on this thread, but...

...Queen of Elves? Really? I have to admit, I have never been paying especial attention to Arwen (because if you ask me, her portrayal is boring - whatever can be said about the "beauty image of Lúthien", sure, but she really does not do much anything in the books, and that much is a fact; it's of course the author's doing, but that's it). But anyway, what I wanted to say: where did the "Queen of Elves" idea come from? I am not aware of anything like that being mentioned in the books. (Which horrifies me, because I thought I should know such things!) She is the queen of the renewed reunited kingdom, for sure, along with Aragorn. But Queen of Elves? No idea.

Most of the Elves had left Middle-Earth anyway, and those who stayed were mostly the wood-elves in Lórien, or also in Mirkwood, who certainly would not have suddenly accepted a random "queen of Elves" from elsewhere. They had been governing themselves for ages, so why now. And Rivendell Elves more or less all departed West.

Cellurdur, can you provide any quote about this, or anything?
I agree that Arwen does not do much in the War of the Ring, but none of the elves do. Galdor is probably the same Lord of Gondolin, but what does he do? Even Glorfindel the equal of the Maiar does not have a huge role.

It's in the fourth age where we are to presume Arwen takes more action.

As for her role as 'Queen of Elves' I will provide you the details.

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss-LOTR Appendix A
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:19 PM   #90
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I agree that Arwen does not do much in the War of the Ring, but none of the elves do. Galdor is probably the same Lord of Gondolin, but what does he do? Even Glorfindel the equal of the Maiar does not have a huge role.

It's in the fourth age where we are to presume Arwen takes more action.
Of course, of course. The age of the Elves is past. But that's what I'm aiming at. Arwen does not do anything much in the War, and later she becomes "Queen Mother", but we don't hear anything more about it. Not to diminish her role in giving Aragorn moral support throughout all those years even during the War, but it's all simply "off-screen". Speaking from the perspective of the story, she is not a very interesting character, that was all I was saying.

Though also (see below), I don't believe her role would have changed very much in the Fourth Age. She would still be by Aragorn's side (now also physically) and support him, do what a queen can do for her people, but it probably would not differ much from what she was doing in Rivendell. It certainly has its worth, but my point is that there won't be any marked difference from the Third Age, unlike you seemed to imply.

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As for her role as 'Queen of Elves' I will provide you the details.

As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss-LOTR Appendix A
Right you are. I stand corrected. Speaking of that, I think you have something to boast about, since you have just managed to do something not many on this forum have accomplished - if any at all - that is, you have managed to tell me about something I had no idea about. That's not to say I presume I know everything, it's more like that it struck me as a surprise that it hasn't happened before, to my knowledge, that I'd be so surprised about not being aware of something

Although, to be honest, after looking at it, the sentence is such one small remark lost in the text that I would not have probably even noticed it if somebody didn't point it out to me. (Well, exactly - I really didn't.) I think I just read it as "the queen of men" ... "and elves" (as a bonus, since she is an Elf, at least by origin. I.e. I did not see it as something telling about her "subjects", who would be Elves, but rather "she is an Elven queen", i.e. a queen, who happens to be an Elf).

In any case however, she would have ruled over fairly few Elves, really. Of course also the word "ruled" is a bit inappropriate here, even Elrond did not really "rule". (Nobody "rules" over the Elves in later ages anymore.) But yes, she was their queen, if nominally, by bloodline, after Elrond - of course. But it isn't really that much. Her "subjects" would be only the Elves in Rivendell (and with a questionmark any who might have remained in the Grey Havens, but not even sure about that. If any had remained there anyway). The Wood-Elves had been left to their own, we are told.

The remaining Elves in Rivendell were her brothers, from what we know, and possibly a few other fellows. So I think if you said she was the queen a few dozens of Elves, you'd be very close to the truth. So all in all, her title was not really anything she could boast about.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:29 PM   #91
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Of course, of course. The age of the Elves is past. But that's what I'm aiming at. Arwen does not do anything much in the War, and later she becomes "Queen Mother", but we don't hear anything more about it. Not to diminish her role in giving Aragorn moral support throughout all those years even during the War, but it's all simply "off-screen". Speaking from the perspective of the story, she is not a very interesting character, that was all I was saying.
I agree and it is a shame Tolkien does not expand her role, but the story is very Hobbit centric.
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Though also (see below), I don't believe her role would have changed very much in the Fourth Age. She would still be by Aragorn's side (now also physically) and support him, do what a queen can do for her people, but it probably would not differ much from what she was doing in Rivendell. It certainly has its worth, but my point is that there won't be any marked difference from the Third Age, unlike you seemed to imply.
I think there would be quite a big change. At Rivendell as much as she would help Aragorn, she could not help but be overshadowed by Elrond and Galadriel. She also had no real right to interfere with Dunedain.
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Right you are. I stand corrected. Speaking of that, I think you have something to boast about, since you have just managed to do something not many on this forum have accomplished - if any at all - that is, you have managed to tell me about something I had no idea about. That's not to say I presume I know everything, it's more like that it struck me as a surprise that it hasn't happened before, to my knowledge, that I'd be so surprised about not being aware of something
There is so much to Tolkien's work that even the greatest experts occasionally find something else they had missed.
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Although, to be honest, after looking at it, the sentence is such one small remark lost in the text that I would not have probably even noticed it if somebody didn't point it out to me. (Well, exactly - I really didn't.) I think I just read it as "the queen of men" ... "and elves" (as a bonus, since she is an Elf, at least by origin. I.e. I did not see it as something telling about her "subjects", who would be Elves, but rather "she is an Elven queen", i.e. a queen, who happens to be an Elf).

In any case however, she would have ruled over fairly few Elves, really. Of course also the word "ruled" is a bit inappropriate here, even Elrond did not really "rule". (Nobody "rules" over the Elves in later ages anymore.) But yes, she was their queen, if nominally, by bloodline, after Elrond - of course. But it isn't really that much. Her "subjects" would be only the Elves in Rivendell (and with a questionmark any who might have remained in the Grey Havens, but not even sure about that. If any had remained there anyway). The Wood-Elves had been left to their own, we are told.

The remaining Elves in Rivendell were her brothers, from what we know, and possibly a few other fellows. So I think if you said she was the queen a few dozens of Elves, you'd be very close to the truth. So all in all, her title was not really anything she could boast about.
I think there were more elves left than you would imagine. I don't think all the elves of the Havens or Mirkwood had departed. Celeborn actually enlarges Lothlorien for a while. Then there is Legolas and his colony of elves in Ithilien.

Though it was dropped from the Appendix, Tolkien wanted to point out that Eldarion inherited all the elvish lands of the West through his mother.

I think the elves of Mirkwood would actually have been quite accepting of any claim Elrond made.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
But Arwen is not Luthien, no matter how similar they are.
I agree and Arwen is not near Luthien in power. I was only pointing out why Luthien's innate power far exceeded Galadriel's and giving the comparisons.
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Aye, but in order to reject it you have to be tempted.
This is true and the Vanyar were tempted by Morgoth, but rejected him.
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Which is pretty much impossible. Even Sam was tempted, and with his love for Master Frodo he's near the purest being found in LOTR that had anything to do directly with the Ring.
I would agree with this. Though I would add Faramir there too.
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...and that her will thus was stronger than all the others, if she was able to qithstand such a strong temptation. Where are you getting at?
Not necessarily, but I would agree it took greater strength of will for her to resist than say Faramir etc.
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Don't tell me you don't think Elves aren't wise. Arwen is special, I do not deny that - quite the contrary, - but I do not think she is special in this way. The place on the boat was certainly metaphorical, but it was not hers in the full meaning to grant to Frodo. She could take it or refuse it, but you cannot realy give it to someone else. Just like Frodo could not actually give away the rest of his life to Sam, although he says he does - once again, metaphorically.
Okay Now I see what you mean by it being metaphorical. Yes I agree she could not literally give up her place to somebody else. She organised and arranged for Frodo to go to Valinor for healing.
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Elrond defends his realm in a very physical way. Yes, he has fighters like Glorfindel who have a "spiritual" (for lack of a better word) side to them, but still, the defense remains physical. Once, we see Elrond collaborating with nature to wipe out the Nazgul in a flood. But that was once again physical - he did not defeat them in a battle of wills, he merely swept them away.

Galadriel does more and goes beyond the physical - she actually goes and reads Sauron's mind and counters his plans before they are even put in action. Even Aragorn does more, by withstanding Sauron via Palantir.
It's not as simple as you make out. Galadriel could NOT read Sauron's mind. It's impossible for ANYONE to completely read another equal beings mind in the sense of say a telepath. I will give you the quotes if you want.

Elrond and Galadriel both strive with Sauron mentally too. Rivendell a bit like Doriath seemed to have some kind of enchantment on it making it very hard to find and impossible to remember the exact distance of where it is.
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Umm, Tolkien tells us that? Gandalf says so in The Shadow of the Past. The Ring has greater power over the more powerful people, and the more powerful you are without the Ring the worse you will be with it.

Boromir is not more powerful than Aragorn, certainly. The thing is that Aragorn is stronger than the temptation (regardless of its magnitude) and Boromir isn't.
I don't think it does say that. Can you provide a quote? Maybe you are confusing two different statements. The more powerful you are the more evil you will do with the ring if you use it. This does not mean just because you are powerful you will be tempted by it.

I used the case of Faramir and Boromir. Faramir was the more powerful brother(at least mentally and in will power), but he was less tempted than Boromir.
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Life in a paradise soon gets boring with nothing to do if everything is handed down. Most of the Noldor did not even imagine how far they will slide down upon taking their course. They did not want to spend an Age pointlessly fighting Morgoth. Some did not even want to fight him at all.
Yes and the ones, like Glorfindel, who only left due to family ties were forgiven the quickest. Life in paradise may get boring, but I imagine its much better than spending hundreds of years fighting Morgoth.

Last edited by cellurdur; 12-13-2012 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 08:09 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Sorry I meant to say "characters with majesty without pride". Arwen had ambitions to marry Aragorn, which depended on him regaining the throne. Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.
Well, no, I don't. Firstly, Arwen did not rule the land in her own name or right, she ruled it because she married the right man. Secondly, because that doesn't give you the power of the individual, that just gives you the power of his/her title.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
That was one of the reasons the other was Elrond, just like with Galadriel. Gandalf himself says that Rivendell would be the very last to fall.
Given the geographical location, I am not surprised.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Her claim to be Queen of Elves is something she had of her own merit. She rules all the elvish lands.
Really? All the Elvish lands? Lorien and Mirkwood and the Havens, and her father's domain too? She was never Queen of anything but what lands Aragorn had claim over.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Aragorn inherits the kingdom Isildur lost, Finarfin inherits the kingship that Fingolfin/Feanor lost. Arwen becomes the great Queen, that Galadriel never becomes.
I hear what you're saying. Yet unlike Aragorn, she didn't really work to do it. She doesn't do anything to deserve it. Moreover, although she's the Queen of half of ME and all that, stripped of her titles she is much less than Galadriel as an individual, not as a status place holder.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.
Right. Like Finarfin, the only reason she gets any sort of title from the Elven side is because all her kin is gone.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Okay Now I see what you mean by it being metaphorical. Yes I agree she could not literally give up her place to somebody else. She organised and arranged for Frodo to go to Valinor for healing.
Not exactly. She could not have arranged it, because she did not have the authority to grant Frodo the right to enter Aman. It's not like she has a ticket and she just passes it to the next person in line. It's more like she has a special ID badge that would only allow her in, and would not work for someone else.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Elrond and Galadriel both strive with Sauron mentally too. Rivendell a bit like Doriath seemed to have some kind of enchantment on it making it very hard to find and impossible to remember the exact distance of where it is.
Firstly, I do not think that Rivendell has much of an enchantment on it. I think it is more of a trick of the landscape. Secondly, both Galadriel and Gandalf do strive with Sauron as well, but I do not remember Elrond's mental battles. I would appreciate it if you gave an example.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
I don't think it does say that. Can you provide a quote? Maybe you are confusing two different statements. The more powerful you are the more evil you will do with the ring if you use it. This does not mean just because you are powerful you will be tempted by it.

I used the case of Faramir and Boromir. Faramir was the more powerful brother(at least mentally and in will power), but he was less tempted than Boromir.
Oh, ok, I get you now. Certainly power is not the only thing that affects someone. It's not a one-to-one direct relationship. There are other qualities involved. However, power plays a role too. You would not tempt Faramir with a piece of fish. You would not tempt Saruman with a garden. The Ring poses a temptation proportionate to the desires/ambitions and power of the weilder, just like it grants him power based on his stature. It is not coincidental that Gandalf picked the hobbits to do the mission.

You are correct, Gandalf does not explicitly say that power results in greater temptation. I did, in fact, confuse the quote below with something else that I cannot remember where it is in the books. However, I would still say that my point stands; though I can't find the quote that lead me to think this way, I think that you do not need to rely on a quote to see a parallel.

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"With that power I should have power too great and too terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a powerstill greater and more deadly."..."Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to weild it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me."
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Yes and the ones, like Glorfindel, who only left due to family ties were forgiven the quickest. Life in paradise may get boring, but I imagine its much better than spending hundreds of years fighting Morgoth.
Thing is, nobody thought they will be spending the next few hundred years fighting Morgoth.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:47 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Well, no, I don't. Firstly, Arwen did not rule the land in her own name or right, she ruled it because she married the right man. Secondly, because that doesn't give you the power of the individual, that just gives you the power of his/her title.
The Queen of Elves is something she had by her own right and passed on to her son.
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Given the geographical location, I am not surprised.
Yet there is more to it.
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Really? All the Elvish lands? Lorien and Mirkwood and the Havens, and her father's domain too? She was never Queen of anything but what lands Aragorn had claim over.
Tolkien only tells us she is now Queen of Elves and then goes on to say Eldarion inherited ALL the elvish lands of the west through Arwen. In the early drafts from the Appendix he does expand on this. It should be noted that this does not appear in the LOTR appendix, but given Arwen is the Queen of Elves it gives some indications of his earliest thoughts at least.

He wedded Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond. His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West. POME
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I hear what you're saying. Yet unlike Aragorn, she didn't really work to do it. She doesn't do anything to deserve it. Moreover, although she's the Queen of half of ME and all that, stripped of her titles she is much less than Galadriel as an individual, not as a status place holder.
I think the point is being power hungry often leads to a lack of power. Those who don't desire it are granted it.
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Right. Like Finarfin, the only reason she gets any sort of title from the Elven side is because all her kin is gone.
No, because even after his kin are rehoused he remains forever king. It's because he was wise and faithful, that he became king.
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Not exactly. She could not have arranged it, because she did not have the authority to grant Frodo the right to enter Aman. It's not like she has a ticket and she just passes it to the next person in line. It's more like she has a special ID badge that would only allow her in, and would not work for someone else.
She arranged it in the sense that she spoke with Gandalf and Galadiel and had them put a special plea on her behalf. Only the Powers in the West could grant it, but she organised for it to happen.

It is Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's: both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men."
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Firstly, I do not think that Rivendell has much of an enchantment on it. I think it is more of a trick of the landscape. Secondly, both Galadriel and Gandalf do strive with Sauron as well, but I do not remember Elrond's mental battles. I would appreciate it if you gave an example.
Aragorn's words about the people differing on the exact distance suggest it is not mere geography. The fact that many people, who have been there cannot give you an accurate account of how many miles it takes to reach their shows there must be some enchantment about the place. Even Gandalf, who had been to Rivendell many times struggles to find it again.

You are right there is no direct quote that Elrond strove with Sauron mentally, but it is implied that all the wielders of the 3 rings did so.
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Oh, ok, I get you now. Certainly power is not the only thing that affects someone. It's not a one-to-one direct relationship. There are other qualities involved. However, power plays a role too. You would not tempt Faramir with a piece of fish. You would not tempt Saruman with a garden. The Ring poses a temptation proportionate to the desires/ambitions and power of the weilder, just like it grants him power based on his stature. It is not coincidental that Gandalf picked the hobbits to do the mission.
Gandalf did not pick the Hobbits to do the mission. If anyone picked the Hobbits it would Eru. Aragorn was the strongest of the fellowship, but he seemed the least tempted by the ring. Even Gimli and Legolas seem to want to take the ring to Minas Tirith.
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You are correct, Gandalf does not explicitly say that power results in greater temptation. I did, in fact, confuse the quote below with something else that I cannot remember where it is in the books. However, I would still say that my point stands; though I can't find the quote that lead me to think this way, I think that you do not need to rely on a quote to see a parallel.
There is a difference between the temptation when you have the ring in your possession and merely just using it. The greater you are the greater it's hold on you when you actually have the ring. This does not apply if it is just sitting there. All through out the story we see people, who do not desire power having no problem rejecting the ring. It is only those, who desire power that are most tempted.
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Thing is, nobody thought they will be spending the next few hundred years fighting Morgoth.
Apart from Feanor, I think a lot of the wiser ones DID realise they could not win. Fingolfin is one of them, who knew it was a hopeless journey. Then Mandos tells them it is hopeless. They knew what they were getting into and were too proud to turn back.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:31 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
I think there were more elves left than you would imagine. I don't think all the elves of the Havens or Mirkwood had departed. Celeborn actually enlarges Lothlorien for a while. Then there is Legolas and his colony of elves in Ithilien.
The Elven colony in Ithilien is a good point, since it was formally within the scope of the renewed kingdom. However, there probably also were not very many - again, I imagine like a few dozens (not unlike the former Rangers of Ithilien). Let us not forget that the Fourth Age is the dominion of Men and the Elves gradually withdraw and vanish. Even Legolas did not stay forever.

Celeborn, on the other hand, retained his own "sovereignity", that much is clear. Him and Thranduil ruled over the rest of Lórien&"East Lórien" (former Southern Mirkwood) and Mirkwood, respectively; and whoever was the queen of the Elven realms in Middle-Earth descended through Elrond was no concern to them, as it never would have been.

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I think the elves of Mirkwood would actually have been quite accepting of any claim Elrond made.
Why? They never, ever acknowledged any other authority before. Why would they suddenly do so now? And they still had "their" Thranduil. The fate of Lórien's Elves is also clear after Celeborn's departure from there. Let me quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LotR, Appendix B
But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon.
Pretty clear, the picture of "diminish and depart". Celeborn's own story aside, the Wood-Elves seem to be the same as they always had been. The Avari, who originally refused to go to the West, had no part whatsoever in the Beleriand Wars, and remained "in their own sandbox" also for most of the latter ages (with the exception of e.g. the Last Alliance, and even then they followed their own leader, and not Gil-Galad's lead, which actually was their loss since they got butchered).

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Tolkien only tells us she is now Queen of Elves and then goes on to say Eldarion inherited ALL the elvish lands of the west through Arwen. In the early drafts from the Appendix he does expand on this. It should be noted that this does not appear in the LOTR appendix, but given Arwen is the Queen of Elves it gives some indications of his earliest thoughts at least.

He wedded Arwen Undomiel, daughter of Elrond. His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West. POME
I think this quote actually shows the true nature of Arwen's "queendom". My personal belief is that it actually shows this rather sad reminiscence of the past, pointing out that "hey, reader, please do not forget that Arwen was now, by right, on the same level, or the heir of, all those big names like Lúthien or Fingolfin or even more, since she combined all the bloodlines" (and all that plus the Númenorean bloodline via marriage, and all that also for her children). But this note for the reader is there because the reader might not have realised it from the looks of things, which are rather dull: something like at most hundred Elves (or maybe fifty) huddled together somewhere in Rivendell, another hundred possibly in Ithilien, plus a few wanderers, and that's about it. Yet exactly this is no more and no less but everything that remains of the former Elven Kingdoms of old.

Why am I quite certain of this being actually a remark rather reminding us of the noble descent of the currently poor Elven realms - if you look at the quote, it also contains a parallelism. "Heirs of Númenorean realms..." Well, Númenorean realms, as we certainly know, do not mean Númenor itself anymore! It means "the realm in exile", a realm reunited, to be sure, but still past its former glory. So likewise, the Elf-kingdoms of the West are in Beleriand... which does not exist anymore! Because, otherwise, what realms are there in the Third Age? Rivendell, which is, like, one valley? Possibly Grey Havens, which is one ghost town by now? And some Ithilien "colonies", which effectively means a large forest with one treetop house with three Elves per ten square miles? Geographically, Arwen would be the queen of even less than demographically. She might have ruled over, say, two to at most three hundred Elves, but geographically over what, ten square miles at most? One city+one valley? (Ithilien does not quite count, since it's the part of the Kingdom anyway, so it does not come through the "Elven" descent, as it also never had been an Elven realm before.)
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:38 AM   #95
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A few thoughts, hopefully without too many repetitions

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
The Queen of Elves is something she had by her own right and passed on to her son.
But once again, it's just a title. What does she have as an individual, being the Queen of Elves? This title does not seem to reflect anything other than her birth.

Imagine Arwen is mysteriously sucked into a chamber-between-worlds. She is no one and has nothing except for what she has inside. She's not the Queen of Elves, the Queen of Gondor, the Evenstar, or anything like that. She is just her, without any titles. What does she have that is greater than what Galadriel has?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur
No, because even after his kin are rehoused he remains forever king. It's because he was wise and faithful, that he became king.
Sure. But that's still not the case with Arwen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur
She arranged it in the sense that she spoke with Gandalf and Galadiel and had them put a special plea on her behalf. Only the Powers in the West could grant it, but she organised for it to happen.
Fair enough. But in my opinion she did not have more arranging than anyone else. She might have been the one to put the idea into words, but she did not have the authority to do anything except for ask of it on Frodo's behalf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cellurdur
Gandalf did not pick the Hobbits to do the mission. If anyone picked the Hobbits it would Eru. Aragorn was the strongest of the fellowship, but he seemed the least tempted by the ring. Even Gimli and Legolas seem to want to take the ring to Minas Tirith.
I say he was the most tempted, but also the strongest in will. Way stronger than the Ring, at least while he did not wear it himself.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:08 AM   #96
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It's not as simple as you make out. Galadriel could NOT read Sauron's mind. It's impossible for ANYONE to completely read another equal beings mind in the sense of say a telepath.
I think it´s pretty clear that she was able to read his mind.

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I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'
I think it is implied that she was actually able to read some parts of his mind. I imagine that it was not a easy procedure and that she has to stop at one point to prevent that he is able to see too much of her thoght or her thoghts at all.

Reading minds seems to be her speciality.
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From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding,
There is the debate in why Galadriel is considers the greatest of the Noldor, but many people don´t know why, or in what she is good at, to justify that claim.

With Feanor it´s easy but maybe Galadriel was the best in mind reading, so that she was able to do it with Sauron, even if that is actually not possible (I don´t remember the Osanwer Kenta text too well at this point).

As for mind reading....the essay on Osanwe-kenta details the limitations there. It is correct that no being can really read another's mind, but if you aren't actively shielding (so to speak) you may be unintentionally broadcasting your thoughts. Maybe she was strong enough to break his firewall so to speak.

And there are far more examples of mind reading, in the end between Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Ceeborn I believe and of course when she was reading the minds of the company.

But I really don´t think that she was knowing his mind figuratively.

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Old 12-14-2012, 10:23 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six score years in great glory and bliss

And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.

It is through Arwen that Eldarion inherits the elvish lands and it is Arwen alone known as the Queen of Elves.

Arwen seems to be recognised by all the remaining Elves as their queen. This is independent of her marriage to Aragorn.
Where is any evidence that Eldarion inherits "the elvish lands" or Arwen is recognised as Queen by any remaining elves? I can find the first sentence in my LOTR but not the second. And having it on Kindle I have been able to search key words.

The first sentence on it's own is hardly more substantial than Frodo naming Mrs Maggot a Queen. She does not rule. When Aragorn gives up his life it is Eldarion who rules. How she could become Queen of her own descent is hard to see especially when her father though arguably entitled does not use the title of King - a rather pointless title as head of a household which is all Rivendell is (in the expanded sense that Eomer for example when he describes his eored as men of his own household). And her elder brothers are living in Middle Earth for some of the time between Elrond's departure. Cirdan remains Lord of Havens until the last ship sails. Thranduil remains in Mirkwood. She may be revered for her beauty but she does not actually rule other than as Aragorn's wife.

I don't see that the draft has much force when it is of something Tolkien published in his own lifetime. And being heir of something isn't the same as inheriting something or even being heir to something. There has to be something to inherit. "His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West" seems to me to mean more that the lines of Luthien had been reconnected and enriched by the addition of the lines of Galadriel and Celeborn rather than that they were the literal heirs to the realms. Especially since the elf-realms were fading out. It would be like being Queen of Sealand.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:42 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
The Elven colony in Ithilien is a good point, since it was formally within the scope of the renewed kingdom. However, there probably also were not very many - again, I imagine like a few dozens (not unlike the former Rangers of Ithilien). Let us not forget that the Fourth Age is the dominion of Men and the Elves gradually withdraw and vanish. Even Legolas did not stay forever.
Legolas stayed until the death of Aragorn. I would imagine the majority of his folk would stay at least as long as he did and maybe longer.
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Celeborn, on the other hand, retained his own "sovereignity", that much is clear. Him and Thranduil ruled over the rest of Lórien&"East Lórien" (former Southern Mirkwood) and Mirkwood, respectively; and whoever was the queen of the Elven realms in Middle-Earth descended through Elrond was no concern to them, as it never would have been.
I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.
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Why? They never, ever acknowledged any other authority before. Why would they suddenly do so now? And they still had "their" Thranduil. The fate of Lórien's Elves is also clear after Celeborn's departure from there. Let me quote:


Pretty clear, the picture of "diminish and depart". Celeborn's own story aside, the Wood-Elves seem to be the same as they always had been. The Avari, who originally refused to go to the West, had no part whatsoever in the Beleriand Wars, and remained "in their own sandbox" also for most of the latter ages (with the exception of e.g. the Last Alliance, and even then they followed their own leader, and not Gil-Galad's lead, which actually was their loss since they got butchered).
Yes, but no time frame is given about how long they take to diminish and depart. Legolas's colony was still around for the entirety of Aragorn's reign. Celeborn did not rule over Avari, becuase they had begun the journey west.

Elrond claimed to be the heir of Thingol, but he never desired the kingship. Arwen through Galadriel and Celeborn would also be the rightful heir of Lothlorien. When Celeborn departed to Rivendell, why would they not accept her as queen, since they would be under the protection of Gondor anyway.
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I think this quote actually shows the true nature of Arwen's "queendom". My personal belief is that it actually shows this rather sad reminiscence of the past, pointing out that "hey, reader, please do not forget that Arwen was now, by right, on the same level, or the heir of, all those big names like Lúthien or Fingolfin or even more, since she combined all the bloodlines" (and all that plus the Númenorean bloodline via marriage, and all that also for her children). But this note for the reader is there because the reader might not have realised it from the looks of things, which are rather dull: something like at most hundred Elves (or maybe fifty) huddled together somewhere in Rivendell, another hundred possibly in Ithilien, plus a few wanderers, and that's about it. Yet exactly this is no more and no less but everything that remains of the former Elven Kingdoms of old.
I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe. Arwen was by her own right a great power. You seem to want to diminish Arwen's role rather than judge things objectively. The majority of elves in Middle Earth would not depart immediately after the end of the Third Age. Considering we know for a fact certain elvish realms still grew in size, a decent amount must have remained. There was enough in Ithilien to make it the fairest part of Gondor.

You also ignore that peace was not yet established in the Kingdom. Aragorn would often have to lead his armies to war with the east attacking from Rhun. The elves of Mirkwood and Lorien would be vulnerable to such attacks especially if there numbers were declining. They would likely in such a situation come under the protection of Reunited Empire, at least until they left.
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Why am I quite certain of this being actually a remark rather reminding us of the noble descent of the currently poor Elven realms - if you look at the quote, it also contains a parallelism. "Heirs of Númenorean realms..." Well, Númenorean realms, as we certainly know, do not mean Númenor itself anymore! It means "the realm in exile", a realm reunited, to be sure, but still past its former glory. So likewise, the Elf-kingdoms of the West are in Beleriand... which does not exist anymore! Because, otherwise, what realms are there in the Third Age? Rivendell, which is, like, one valley? Possibly Grey Havens, which is one ghost town by now? And some Ithilien "colonies", which effectively means a large forest with one treetop house with three Elves per ten square miles? Geographically, Arwen would be the queen of even less than demographically. She might have ruled over, say, two to at most three hundred Elves, but geographically over what, ten square miles at most? One city+one valley? (Ithilien does not quite count, since it's the part of the Kingdom anyway, so it does not come through the "Elven" descent, as it also never had been an Elven realm before.)
This does not seem to be supported by the text at all. You want to be believe that enough ships to fair thousands of elves across the sea was built instantly? It took the Numenoreans over 50 years to migrate. Yet now you want to believe the elves did it instantly and all at the same time?

The more likely and logical answer I have already addressed. Arwen being the heir of Celeborn/Galadriel, the heir of Elrond and already a great Queen, would be able to grant protection to the elvish realms. In return they would recognise her sovereignty. Similar to the relation that Aragorn had with the King of Dale.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
But once again, it's just a title. What does she have as an individual, being the Queen of Elves? This title does not seem to reflect anything other than her birth.
The elves had never been ones to accept leaders based on birth alone. I have pointed out how many an elvish leader, even exceptionally strong ones like Feanor and Galadriel had been rejected by their people. So Galadriel had more than just her birthright to hold them together.
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Imagine Arwen is mysteriously sucked into a chamber-between-worlds. She is no one and has nothing except for what she has inside. She's not the Queen of Elves, the Queen of Gondor, the Evenstar, or anything like that. She is just her, without any titles. What does she have that is greater than what Galadriel has?
I never argued that Arwen was greater than Galadriel, but that she was great in her own right and accomplished many great things. People too often dismiss the role she played.
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Sure. But that's still not the case with Arwen.
Arwen showed wisdom, patience and self sacrifice in her dealings with Aragorn. To give up immortality for the one she loved and in part to enrich Gondor was something important according to Tolkien and worthy of reward.
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Fair enough. But in my opinion she did not have more arranging than anyone else. She might have been the one to put the idea into words, but she did not have the authority to do anything except for ask of it on Frodo's behalf.
Well by first seeing the flaw arranging for the Valar to be asked how did she not arrange it? She sought and got permission granted. Just because the Valar had the final say does not negate her role in anyway.
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I say he was the most tempted, but also the strongest in will. Way stronger than the Ring, at least while he did not wear it himself.
I don't see anything to suggest he was more strongly tempted than Galadriel. He never contemplates stealing ring and never says he desired to use it. You are reading things that are not their in the text. The ring appeals more to those with certain flaws, most notably pride.

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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
I think it´s pretty clear that she was able to read his mind.
Well you would be wrong, because this was impossible according to Tolkien. That apart Sauron was a greater power than Galadriel and even if she had the One Ring she would be unable to overcome him.

No one not even the Valar could read the mind of another 'equal being'. .....One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendencies of mind and thought..

Galadriel had a special gift of being able to read people from their previous actions and tendencies. She could not invade Sauron's mind in the way you think. As the article says this is impossible for even the greatest of the Valar to do to the weakest of the Hobbits. Let alone Galadriel trying to do it to a greater power than hers.
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I think it is implied that she was actually able to read some parts of his mind. I imagine that it was not a easy procedure and that she has to stop at one point to prevent that he is able to see too much of her thoght or her thoghts at all.

Reading minds seems to be her speciality.

There is the debate in why Galadriel is considers the greatest of the Noldor, but many people don´t know why, or in what she is good at, to justify that claim.

With Feanor it´s easy but maybe Galadriel was the best in mind reading, so that she was able to do it with Sauron, even if that is actually not possible (I don´t remember the Osanwer Kenta text too well at this point).

As for mind reading....the essay on Osanwe-kenta details the limitations there. It is correct that no being can really read another's mind, but if you aren't actively shielding (so to speak) you may be unintentionally broadcasting your thoughts. Maybe she was strong enough to break his firewall so to speak.
Galadriel was weaker than Sauron by such a great margin, that even if she took the One Ring she could not defeat him. Sauron is no fool and would not be broadcasting his thoughts out like you wish to imagine. Galadriel had great deductive skills and given Sauron's actions both past and present could predict the way he was going to act. He though, being blinded by evil could not predict the same about her.
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And there are far more examples of mind reading, in the end between Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Ceeborn I believe and of course when she was reading the minds of the company.

But I really don´t think that she was knowing his mind figuratively.
Again you are mistaken. Elves could broadcast their thoughts only if they intended to communicate them. It's not just elves, but the Numenoreans had the a similar ability.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen View Post
Where is any evidence that Eldarion inherits "the elvish lands" or Arwen is recognised as Queen by any remaining elves? I can find the first sentence in my LOTR but not the second. And having it on Kindle I have been able to search key words.

The first sentence on it's own is hardly more substantial than Frodo naming Mrs Maggot a Queen. She does not rule. When Aragorn gives up his life it is Eldarion who rules. How she could become Queen of her own descent is hard to see especially when her father though arguably entitled does not use the title of King - a rather pointless title as head of a household which is all Rivendell is (in the expanded sense that Eomer for example when he describes his eored as men of his own household). And her elder brothers are living in Middle Earth for some of the time between Elrond's departure. Cirdan remains Lord of Havens until the last ship sails. Thranduil remains in Mirkwood. She may be revered for her beauty but she does not actually rule other than as Aragorn's wife.

I don't see that the draft has much force when it is of something Tolkien published in his own lifetime. And being heir of something isn't the same as inheriting something or even being heir to something. There has to be something to inherit. "His descendants became thus the heirs of the Numenorean realms, and of Luthien and the Elf-kingdoms of the West" seems to me to mean more that the lines of Luthien had been reconnected and enriched by the addition of the lines of Galadriel and Celeborn rather than that they were the literal heirs to the realms. Especially since the elf-realms were fading out. It would be like being Queen of Sealand.
I don't agree at all with your interpretation that it is similar to what Frodo calls Mrs Maggot. Arwen was a real Queen of men and put alongside her title is that she was Queen of Elves too.

Arwen had a legitimate claim to many of the Elven Lands.

As for the inheritance the text shows it is in relation to the lands that Eldarion and his heirs ruled over with a legitimate claim. Showing that he had a right to the lands he ruled.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:53 AM   #99
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Originally posted by cellurdur:

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As for the inheritance the text shows it is in relation to the lands that Eldarion and his heirs ruled over with a legitimate claim. Showing that he had a right to the lands he ruled.
I'm also curious as to where in the text this second quote appears. Like Mithalwen, I can find the first sentence, but not the second.
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:16 PM   #100
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Elves could broadcast their thoughts only if they intended to communicate them
Yes if they intended, Sauron surely didn´t intended that, but what if she was able to do it by force? Her power coupled with her ring? Was Sauron inhernetly that strong at the time, I rather think it was his army that made him so strong.
Still Galadriel was able to read the minds of the fellowship and they didn´t intended that, they not even would know how this works.

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I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'
Why would he try to see her thought if he would´t be aware of Galadriels mindreading? He wants to see her thought, they struggle, but he isn´t able to do but she is.

One time she was able to win in a struggle with him too, when Eorl rode near Lorien.

"When they passed Dol Guldur in Mirkwood - where Sauron dwelled in secret - a darkness emanated from the fortress, and Eorl turned westward to avoid it. But then a white mist came from the woods of Lothlorien that stood across the River from Dol Guldur, and the Riders were hidden and continued safely on their way and, under the protection of the mist, apparently made the journey unwearyingly at an extraordinary rate of speed. "

Apparently Galadriel was able to conquer Saurons shadow, so why not able to read his thoughts?

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Old 12-14-2012, 12:26 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by radagastly View Post
Originally posted by cellurdur:


I'm also curious as to where in the text this second quote appears. Like Mithalwen, I can find the first sentence, but not the second.
Which quote do you have in mind? It can be found in the People's of Middle Earth, which provide as a lot of details about how Tolkien developed the Appendixes.

These statements do not make the LOTR Appendix and are not fully cannon, but Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is retained. The statements here give some indication of what Tolkien intended by that title.
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:35 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
Yes if they intended, Sauron surely didn´t intended that, but what if she was able to do it by force? Her power coupled with her ring? Was Sauron inhernetly that strong at the time, I rather think it was his army that made him so strong.
Still Galadriel was able to read the minds of the fellowship and they didn´t intended that, they not even would know how this works.
Simply, because Sauron was much more powerful then Galadriel and to do so was impossible for even the Valar to do. Tolkien explains what could be done in detail.

Sauron was much greater than Galadriel and greater even than Gandalf the White.

As I said before not even using the One Ring could Galadriel realistically defeat Sauron. What chance would she have without it?

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.

There are several statements from Gandalf implying that only Sauron was more powerful than him in ME.

"I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still."

And so I am, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet unless you are brought alive before the seat of the dark lord.
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Why would he try to see her thought if he would´t be aware of Galadriels mindreading? He wants to see her thought, they struggle, but he isn´t able to do but she is.

One time she was able to win in a sturgle with him too, when Eorl rode near Lorien.

"There were dark glooms flowing out of Dol Guldor, and I'm sure Sauron sensed Eorl's host approaching. Yet the white mists from Galadriel was able to drive back Sauron's darkness? Why is this? Does this mean that in his Necromancer state, Sauron is weaker? Being a maia, he could've easily pushed back Galadriel's enchanted mists and done away with Eorl and his host, but he was overpowered."

That are not my own words, I copied that.
Sauron wat not yet at his full power when this occured, because he was busy rebuilding his power that he had lost. By the time of the One Ring he had regained his former strength.

he was none other than Sauron, our enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again.


2060-The power of Dol Guldur grows




So yes he was much weaker, before his full powers were recovered. After they were recovered he was far too powerful for Galadriel or anyone else on Midddle Earth to deal with.

Even among the elven ring holders, Elrond is the most likely to be able to defeat Sauron, not Galadriel in a personal confrontation.

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Old 12-14-2012, 01:20 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.
See what I quoted there. The Wood-Elves would not have accepted Arwen as their queen simply because they did not accept anyone before. Not even Lúthien, for that matter. Lúthien, for the Avari, was some random elf behind the mountains in the First Age. Even for many of the Elves in Beleriand, there was no reason to flock to the small kingdom in Ossiriand after Lúthien and Beren had returned there briefly. No, we are told plainly, and I quote once again, the whole passage this time (emphasises mine):
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Thranduil took all the northern region as far as the mountains that rise in the forest for his realm; and Celeborn took the southern wood below the Narrows, and named it East Lórien; all the wide forest between was given to the Beornings and the Woodmen. But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond. In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people, and there was no longer light or song in Caras Galadhon.
It is clear that the Wood-Elves remained under Thranduil and were left to themselves, just as they always had been. I think you that at least that is pretty clear, completely objectively, also taking into account the behavior of the Avari in the past ages. Likewise, if you read in the Unfinished Tales "of Galadriel and Celeborn", there is pretty lengthy debate about how the Wood-Elves, also in Lórien, were not particularly inclined to accept "foreigners" and how Celeborn and Galadriel, out of respect, never really took the title of "King and Queen", but simply did what they had to, and were content with whatever respect the Elves gave them. Therefore, there is really no "inherited claim" for Lórien through Galadriel. Celeborn kept his post as the Lord of Galadhrim until a couple of years after Galadriel's departure, as we read, and after that, there likely was no other external ruler in Lórien. If Arwen came and claimed rulership over Lórien, it would likely have been mentioned in the text above, right? She would likely have - using your arguments, having the beauty of Lúthien which you said was so inspiring for all the Elves - cheered up the remaining Elves. Instead, we only read about sad remaining "few" Elves who are left in their solitude and gloom (and possibly eventually depart for the West).

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Elrond claimed to be the heir of Thingol, but he never desired the kingship. Arwen through Galadriel and Celeborn would also be the rightful heir of Lothlorien. When Celeborn departed to Rivendell, why would they not accept her as queen, since they would be under the protection of Gondor anyway.
As for the first part, see above. The claim of Lórien is absolutely out of question if you read "Of Celeborn and Galadriel" in the UT. As for the second part, there was nothing about Lórien being a part of the kingdom. Certainly not part of the kingdom of Gondor&Rohan reunited!

I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe.
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Arwen was by her own right a great power. You seem to want to diminish Arwen's role rather than judge things objectively.
Nope, let's make it clear. This has nothing to do with Arwen or my perception of her. I certainly do not want to diminish her role. As for her role as the Queen of the reunited kingdom, I fully accept all of that. As for her personal powers or abilities, that is completely out of the scope of discussion for me, it has nothing to do with her claims of rulership or whatnot. I also fully accept the fact that, by bloodline, she had the right to all the Elven kingdoms formed by the Sindar/Teleri/Noldor and their descendants. What I am saying is that with all her right as being the last in the line of the Elven kings in Middle-Earth, the problem is that there were really no realms to rule. And no Elves to rule. The age of Elves was gone. They were not active in the world's affairs anyway, they had not been already for some time except for a random surge here and there. You certainly are aware that you cannot compare Arwen ruling over the remnants of Elves from Rivendell etc with the mighty kingdoms of the sons of Feanor, or Fingolfin, Finrod, Thingol, etc etc.

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The majority of elves in Middle Earth would not depart immediately after the end of the Third Age.
No, of course not. It took some years. But let's not forget that Elves had begun their departure already much much earlier, they had been leaving throughout the Third Age, and faster so around the time of the War of the Ring (that's what even the Hobbits notice, as we read in the first chapters of LotR). So there were pretty few Elves at the beginning of the Fourth Age, and still leaving. Not arriving anymore. Of course. And...

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Considering we know for a fact certain elvish realms still grew in size, a decent amount must have remained. There was enough in Ithilien to make it the fairest part of Gondor.
What? Elven realms growing in size? In Fourth Age? Already in Third they were diminishing, heck, even in the Second already, so can you supply a quote to this? The only thing changing was the fact that Ithilien and Mirkwood was freed from the oppression of the Enemy, so the Elves could migrate there and wander around some new woods. If that's what you mean, then okay, but it certainly is not any "expansion", because they would leave half-empty woods behind them in their former homes.

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You also ignore that peace was not yet established in the Kingdom. Aragorn would often have to lead his armies to war with the east attacking from Rhun. The elves of Mirkwood and Lorien would be vulnerable to such attacks especially if there numbers were declining. They would likely in such a situation come under the protection of Reunited Empire, at least until they left.
Really? This sounds rather fabricated to me. Because what we hear is:
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Originally Posted by RotK, The Steward and the King
And the King pardoned the Easterlings that had given themselves up, and sent them away free, and he made peace with the peoples of Harad; and the slaves of Mordor he released and gave to them all the lands about Lake Núrnen to be their own.
I think Elessar had pretty good times, given diplomatic efforts and all that. And as for the Elves, nobody would attack Lórien, for sure (not from such far away, nobody did it anyway throughout ages, even when the Easterlings attacked Calenardhon), since it was across the river and too far, but neither Mirkwood. First, why would anybody attack forest-Elves in forest which is not even good for conquering (seriously, why would you conquer a forest?). Second, once again pointing to the quote above, "in the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled" says it all, I think.

You accused me of not considering facts objectively, but here you are fabricating arguments. So do not do that if we want to remain on objective basis.

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This does not seem to be supported by the text at all. You want to be believe that enough ships to fair thousands of elves across the sea was built instantly? It took the Numenoreans over 50 years to migrate. Yet now you want to believe the elves did it instantly and all at the same time?
Once again, just repeating what I already said in this post, the Elves had been migrating throughout the Third Age, in larger numbers before the War of the Ring. And of course not instantly, but there were years. Aragorn and Arwen ruled for what, 120 years? Even if you had one ship leaving per year, and you'd have, okay, completely guessing now, even if I say 30 Elves per ship (which is probably much less than there would be), you'd have 1500 Elves gone during 50 years. And that is already about as much as there would have been in Middle-Earth by that point, I say. Likely, it would of course be much faster.

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Arwen had a legitimate claim to many of the Elven Lands.
"Many" is what? Once again: Rivendell. And??? Grey Havens, possibly? (They were probably empty soon, but even if not, nothing much there.) Ithilien, though that'd be via Aragorn, not via her Elven heritage, since the Elves there were Wood-Elves and Ithilien of course was never an Elven kingdom before. That's it. Lórien - not, Mirkwood - certainly not. And even if you managed to argue for Lórien, it is not "many" Elven lands. It is one valley, one city, and okay, Lórien could be considered a "land" in its full sense. But given that Arwen did not have claim to it (or: did not claim it, as it seems evident from the text), anyway...

The "Elven lands" had been sunk for over two Ages by the time Arwen became the Queen.
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:38 PM   #104
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Simply, because Sauron was much more powerful then Galadriel and to do so was impossible for even the Valar to do. Tolkien explains what could be done in detail.
Morgoth was more powerful than Fingolfin and still was wounded by him, he was more powerful than Luthien and still was put to sleep by her so why is it so unbelievable that Galadriel could read some of his thoughts? That doesn´t mean that she was more powerful than him in generel, just that she had an edge oder him in these matter perhaps.

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Even among the elven ring holders, Elrond is the most likely to be able to defeat Sauron, not Galadriel in a personal confrontation.
That is NOT true!!! I guess you assume that because of that:
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it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.
That is out of context, that is the full quote:

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Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated.
Both, Galadriel and Elrond thought of themself that they could master the ring, especially Elrond, that was due to the power of the ring. Only Gandalf could master it.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:05 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
See what I quoted there. The Wood-Elves would not have accepted Arwen as their queen simply because they did not accept anyone before. Not even Lúthien, for that matter. Lúthien, for the Avari, was some random elf behind the mountains in the First Age. Even for many of the Elves in Beleriand, there was no reason to flock to the small kingdom in Ossiriand after Lúthien and Beren had returned there briefly. No, we are told plainly, and I quote once again, the whole passage this time (emphasises mine):
A lot of the wood elves were made up of Sindar and Nandor elves, all of whom excepted the Lordship of Thingol.

Luthien never tried to claim any form of queenship. Even after the death of Thingol she did not try and claim the kingdom of Doriath. She instead left it for Dior.
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It is clear that the Wood-Elves remained under Thranduil and were left to themselves, just as they always had been. I think you that at least that is pretty clear, completely objectively, also taking into account the behavior of the Avari in the past ages. Likewise, if you read in the Unfinished Tales "of Galadriel and Celeborn", there is pretty lengthy debate about how the Wood-Elves, also in Lórien, were not particularly inclined to accept "foreigners" and how Celeborn and Galadriel, out of respect, never really took the title of "King and Queen", but simply did what they had to, and were content with whatever respect the Elves gave them. Therefore, there is really no "inherited claim" for Lórien through Galadriel. Celeborn kept his post as the Lord of Galadhrim until a couple of years after Galadriel's departure, as we read, and after that, there likely was no other external ruler in Lórien. If Arwen came and claimed rulership over Lórien, it would likely have been mentioned in the text above, right? She would likely have - using your arguments, having the beauty of Lúthien which you said was so inspiring for all the Elves - cheered up the remaining Elves. Instead, we only read about sad remaining "few" Elves who are left in their solitude and gloom (and possibly eventually depart for the West).
Arwen was not a foreigner. She was the granddaughter of the their former Lords and had spent lived among them.

As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.

To claim there was just a few elves defeats the purpose of Arwen being their Queen. What is the point of being Queen of a small group? Even the Kings of Arthedain gave up the title king, though they would have had numbers in the 100. Why would Arwen take it if there were so few elves left to accept her?
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As for the first part, see above. The claim of Lórien is absolutely out of question if you read "Of Celeborn and Galadriel" in the UT. As for the second part, there was nothing about Lórien being a part of the kingdom. Certainly not part of the kingdom of Gondor&Rohan reunited!
If you read Tolkien's work you would see Aragorn is Lord of the West and held as leader of a confederation made up of several kingdoms.


Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a ‘market-garden job’ as you term it.


Then Bard II, Brand's son, became king in the Dale, and Thorin III Stonehelm, Dain's son, became the king under the mountain. They sent their ambassadors to the crowning of Elessar and their realms remained ever after, as long as they lasted, in friendship, with Gondor, and they under the crown and the protection of the King of the West.

Here we see Aragorn soon rules over an empire with other kings under even Dain and Bard excepting his protection. It is not hard to believe that Thrandiul and other elves would come to a similar agreement like Thorin, especially with the threats from the East.
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I am sure there were more elves left than the 100 or so you wish to believe.
Nope, let's make it clear. This has nothing to do with Arwen or my perception of her. I certainly do not want to diminish her role. As for her role as the Queen of the reunited kingdom, I fully accept all of that. As for her personal powers or abilities, that is completely out of the scope of discussion for me, it has nothing to do with her claims of rulership or whatnot. I also fully accept the fact that, by bloodline, she had the right to all the Elven kingdoms formed by the Sindar/Teleri/Noldor and their descendants. What I am saying is that with all her right as being the last in the line of the Elven kings in Middle-Earth, the problem is that there were really no realms to rule. And no Elves to rule. The age of Elves was gone. They were not active in the world's affairs anyway, they had not been already for some time except for a random surge here and there. You certainly are aware that you cannot compare Arwen ruling over the remnants of Elves from Rivendell etc with the mighty kingdoms of the sons of Feanor, or Fingolfin, Finrod, Thingol, etc etc.
Your problem is that you seem to be under the perception that thousands of elves could leave ME instantly. Where were the ships to take them? Even if they wished to leave straight away such a migration would take tens of years and by all accounts they did not want to leave immediately.

Aragorn we are told leads a confederation of united allies and many of them are under his crown. Stands to reason the Elves too would accept his protection and kingship. Whilst there is no reason to assume all the elves had left just 120 years after the ring was destroyed.
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No, of course not. It took some years. But let's not forget that Elves had begun their departure already much much earlier, they had been leaving throughout the Third Age, and faster so around the time of the War of the Ring (that's what even the Hobbits notice, as we read in the first chapters of LotR). So there were pretty few Elves at the beginning of the Fourth Age, and still leaving. Not arriving anymore. Of course. And...
No there was still thousands of elves in Mirkwood. Without taking his full force, Thranduil can take 1000 elvish warriors to the battle of five armies. That alone means the population numbered in their thousands.

Then there is the population in Lorien, which seemed equally as numerous. But we learn these people soon leave.
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What? Elven realms growing in size? In Fourth Age? Already in Third they were diminishing, heck, even in the Second already, so can you supply a quote to this? The only thing changing was the fact that Ithilien and Mirkwood was freed from the oppression of the Enemy, so the Elves could migrate there and wander around some new woods. If that's what you mean, then okay, but it certainly is not any "expansion", because they would leave half-empty woods behind them in their former homes.
If they were leaving half the woods empty it would hardly be an expansion and worth moving. We are told they actually remain largely untroubled.
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Really? This sounds rather fabricated to me. Because what we hear is:
I think Elessar had pretty good times, given diplomatic efforts and all that. And as for the Elves, nobody would attack Lórien, for sure (not from such far away, nobody did it anyway throughout ages, even when the Easterlings attacked Calenardhon), since it was across the river and too far, but neither Mirkwood. First, why would anybody attack forest-Elves in forest which is not even good for conquering (seriously, why would you conquer a forest?). Second, once again pointing to the quote above, "in the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled" says it all, I think.
I don't think the untroubled line was talking about war. There was still danger from orcs, which you seem to have dismissed.
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Once again, just repeating what I already said in this post, the Elves had been migrating throughout the Third Age, in larger numbers before the War of the Ring. And of course not instantly, but there were years. Aragorn and Arwen ruled for what, 120 years? Even if you had one ship leaving per year, and you'd have, okay, completely guessing now, even if I say 30 Elves per ship (which is probably much less than there would be), you'd have 1500 Elves gone during 50 years. And that is already about as much as there would have been in Middle-Earth by that point, I say. Likely, it would of course be much faster.
Why would they leave when we are told that whilst the Silvan folk of Lorien were leaving, the elves of Mirkwood extended their kingdom and had a colony in Ithilien? At the time of Hobbit a conservative estimate has the Elvish population of Mirkwood at around 5000.
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"Many" is what? Once again: Rivendell. And??? Grey Havens, possibly? (They were probably empty soon, but even if not, nothing much there.) Ithilien, though that'd be via Aragorn, not via her Elven heritage, since the Elves there were Wood-Elves and Ithilien of course was never an Elven kingdom before. That's it. Lórien - not, Mirkwood - certainly not. And even if you managed to argue for Lórien, it is not "many" Elven lands. It is one valley, one city, and okay, Lórien could be considered a "land" in its full sense. But given that Arwen did not have claim to it (or: did not claim it, as it seems evident from the text), anyway...

The "Elven lands" had been sunk for over two Ages by the time Arwen became the Queen.
Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.

Again you only focus on how Aragorn was King of Arnor and Gondor, but he was Lord of the West and had many lands under his protection and crown. Tolkien outright tells us he was an Imperial Power. Arwen is called Queen of Elves. Considering both Dale and The Lonely Mountain accept Aragorn's authority, I fail to see how hard it is to believe so did the remaining elves. Especially since we are again explicitly told she was Queen of Elves and Men.

Last edited by cellurdur; 12-14-2012 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:10 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
Morgoth was more powerful than Fingolfin and still was wounded by him, he was more powerful than Luthien and still was put to sleep by her so why is it so unbelievable that Galadriel could read some of his thoughts? That doesn´t mean that she was more powerful than him in generel, just that she had an edge oder him in these matter perhaps.
I have already shown you it was impossible to read the thoughts of another individual the way you like to think.
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That is NOT true!!! I guess you assume that because of that:
That is out of context, that is the full quote:

Both, Galadriel and Elrond thought of themself that they could master the ring, especially Elrond, that was due to the power of the ring. Only Gandalf could master it.
No that is not the most likely context. Elrond has shown no lust for power, rejected the idea of creating the rings and seems to have little problem rejecting the ring.

From the grammar it is clear that he Tolkien is writing about mastering the One Ring. We have seen how the One Ring gave even Gollum and Sam delusions of grandeur. So this would not be anything special. He is saying IF Galadriel is correct in her belief she could master the ring, then would the other holders of the ringer ie Cirdan and Elrond possibly Gil-galad too, but Elrond out of all of them had the best chance. Considering the confrontation was one of power it would suggest Elrond had the greatest innate power out of all holders, except Gandalf.

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Old 12-14-2012, 02:30 PM   #107
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Well, Arwen after all was the grand daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn who had spent time in Lorien. But after they depart, I agree with Legate that based on Galadriel and Celeborn not claiming direct rule over the Silvan elves in Lorien, then I can't see why they would suddenly take Arwen as their "Queen."

It reminds me of a peculiar line in The Hobbit which caused much discussion in the CBC thread:

Quote:
In those days of our tale there were still some people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors, and Elrond the master of the house was their chief.~A Short Rest
This is strange because it seems to imply an official ruling position over his own Elven house and the Dunedain (people who had both elves and heroes of the North for ancestors). I positted that it was an informal courtesy to Elrond, as his close friendship to the Dunedain and vital role in keeping Isildur's line alive. I mean, Elrond even calls Aragorn "my son" at one point.

But calling Elrond "their chief" would still be a courtesy title, because the Kings of Arnor, and then Chieftain of the Dunedain is an official hereditary position, being what is left of Isildur and Elendil's line. Elrond has no claim to the throne of Gondor, but his kinship and close bond to the Dunedain means he is a revered figure and is informally seen as "a chief" to them.

This is how I read Arwen as "Queen of Elves and Men." It is a courtesy as one of the most respected and high lineage elf remaining in Middle-earth (also her marriage to Aragorn). Being the grand-daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn, I can surely imagine she was well received in Lorien, but this doesn't mean had an official rulership title as their "Queen." And of course through Elrond she would have his claims.

However, Elrond never claims the High Kingship of the Noldor after Gil-galad's death, for there is no point. It's like when Arnor ceased to be a political entity, Amlaith had a claim to be the next "King of Arnor" but fell into dispute. Arnor split and Amlaith had every claim to give himself the title of "King of Arnor" but Arnor no longer existed. So, it really becomes moot and an empty title.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:52 PM   #108
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No that is not the most likely context. Elrond has shown no lust for power, rejected the idea of creating the rings and seems to have little problem rejecting the ring.

From the grammar it is clear that he Tolkien is writing about mastering the One Ring. We have seen how the One Ring gave even Gollum and Sam delusions of grandeur. So this would not be anything special. He is saying IF Galadriel is correct in her belief she could master the ring, then would the other holders of the ringer ie Cirdan and Elrond possibly Gil-galad too, but Elrond out of all of them had the best chance. Considering the confrontation was one of power it would suggest Elrond had the greatest innate power out of all holders, except Gandalf.

But he is saying that Galadriel is NOT correct in her belief that she could master the ring (because ONLY Gandalf could master the ring) and so is especially Elrond, it was only the deceit of the ring that makes them believe that they could do it.

That´s illogical, one time Tolkiens says that of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him and the next time he says that especially Elrond could master him? Don´t think so. I read it as if especially Elrond conceived of himself as capable of wielding the ring and supplanting the dark lord. You can read it both ways but I don´t think Elrond had the greatest innate power, Galadriel is described an an equal of Feanor (in later writing I know, but nevertheless that was Tolkiens take on her) who was the mightiest of the elves and I think no one would argue that he could match Feanor. Only because Elrond was decended from melian doesn´t mean that he was more powerful than the other elves. (In that logic same would apply for Arwen and the twins)Galadriel for sure and Glorfindel (only after his re-birth)are innately more powerful.

By the way, when was he rejecting the idea of creating the rings, he wasn´t even asked ;-)

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However, Elrond never claims the High Kingship of the Noldor after Gil-galad's death
Now it depends which version you believe, but it was CT´s take his father intended Orodreth (sp?) to be father of Gil Galad, so he never could claim the kinship, cause Galadriel would be in the line for queenship.

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Old 12-14-2012, 03:19 PM   #109
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Originally posted by cellurdur:
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Which quote do you have in mind? It can be found in the People's of Middle Earth, which provide as a lot of details about how Tolkien developed the Appendixes.

These statements do not make the LOTR Appendix and are not fully cannon, but Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is retained. The statements here give some indication of what Tolkien intended by that title.
I was actually hoping you could cite the specific source of this line you quoted in an earlier post:
Quote:
And the descendants of Elessar through Arwen became also heirs of the western elf-realms of the westlands.
Do you think there is significance in the fact that this quote appears in the draft from The Peoples of Middle Earth, but was ommited (presumably deliberately) from the published LotR appendices?
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:32 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
But he is saying that Galadriel is NOT correct in her belief that she could master the ring and so is especially Elrond it was only the deceit of the ring that makes them believe that they could do it.

That´s illogical, one time Tolkiens says that of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him and the next time he says that especially Elrond could master him? Don´t think so. I read it as if especially Elrond conceived of himself as capable of wielding the ring and supplanting the dark lord. You can read it both ways but I don´t think Elrond had the greatest innate power, Galadriel is described an an equal of Feanor (in later writing I know, but nevertheless that was Tolkiens take on her) who was the mightiest of the elves and I think no one would argue that he could match Feanor. Only because Elrond was decended from melian doesn´t mean that he was more powerful than the other elves. (In that logic same would apply for Arwen and the twins)Galadriel for sure and Glorfindel (only after his re-birth)are innately more powerful.
Tolkien is saying this, that out of the others(the good guys) only Gandalf can be expected to master it.
Galadriel thought she could master it too.
If Galadriel could master it then so could the others.
Especially Elrond.
But the ring deludes people.
So Galadriel was probably deluded.

Tolkien has never used greatest to mean the most powerful. In every sense when he wants to talk about sheer innate power or superior ability he uses mightiest.

Earendil is the mightiest mariner.
Maglor is the second mightiest singer.
Feanor is the mightiest of the Noldor.
Beleg is the mightiest woodsman.
Ar-pharazon is the mightiest Numenor King
Hurin is the mightiest warrior of men.
Hurin is the mightest of men.

Greatest outright does not mean most powerful. Maeglin is the second greatest Elf in Gondolin, but Ecthelion and Glorfindel are mightier.

That aside Tolkien likes to explain his power.Elrond is a descendant of Melian and this means a lot according to Tolkien.

Elrond has the mightiest elven ring, Elrond is the most likely to be able to overthrow Sauron outside the Istari.

"Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three."


I gave him the name Elrond casually, but as this came from the mythology (Elros and Elrond the two sons of Eärendel) I made him half-elven. Only in The Lord was he identified with the son of Eärendel, and so the great-grandson of Lúthien and Beren, a great power and a Ringholder.

It's Elrond 's magic which defeats the 9 all gathered together.

It is Erond, who holds out against Sauron in Imladris.

Frodo asks:
"What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?"
Gandalf replies:
"Yes, at present, until all else is conquered."


He is the greatest healer in Middle Earth.

Only Cirdan has greater foresight than him and Cirdan has this as a reward from the Valar.
This is what is said about Cirdan's foresight.
This does not include the Istari(who came from Valinor), but must include even Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn.

Notice it the fact that he has superior foresight to Elrond is especially highlighted.

When it comes to innate power all the quotes suggest that Elrond has the most power out of the non Maiar


We have been over this and I have shown how the High Kingship of the Noldor was only passed to males through a male line. Consequently it skipped Elrond, Fingolfin's heir through Turgon and went to Gil-galad the heir of Finarfin. By going to Gil-galad it skipped Galadriel and her daughter Celebrian.

With no one else left on Middle Earth, Arwen could claim the lands through both Finarfin and Fingolfin.

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Old 12-14-2012, 03:40 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by radagastly View Post
Originally posted by cellurdur:

I was actually hoping you could cite the specific source of this line you quoted in an earlier post:

Do you think there is significance in the fact that this quote appears in the draft from The Peoples of Middle Earth, but was ommited (presumably deliberately) from the published LotR appendices?
Yes I do think it is significant that it did not make the Appendix, but no reason is ever given for it. In the Appendix Arwen's role as Queen of Elves is brought up. In other letters it is made apparent that Aragorn would rule over an empire with many kings such as Thorin and Bard pledging allegiance and being placed under his protection. He would then fight many wars in the East all the way to the sea of Rhun. To think the elvish communities in a similar did something similar to Thorin and Bard does not seem a stretch given Arwen's title as the Queen of Elves.

The quotes can be found on Page 196 and 211, The Heirs of Elendil, The Peoples of Middle Earth,
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:16 PM   #112
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I am not sure this is the case. I think you underestimate the just how highly Luthien is held by the elves. She is the greatest, most powerful, most beautiful and noblest of all the elves. Just, because Elrond did not push a claim of kingship does not mean that they would not have accepted it. With their numbers dwindling and the desire to be under the protection of the Crown of Gondor there is no reason why the realms would not accept Arwen as their queen.
Firstly, once again, Luthien is not Arwen. No one praises Maedhros for Feanor's Silmarils. Why should anyone praise Arwen for Luthien's achievements? Also, I do not believe there is such a desire to get under the protection of the Crown of Gondor. Firstly, if anything, they now need less protection because Sauron's forces are destroyed; while there are still scattered orcs and the likes of them here and there, there is no organized war against them. Moreover, to my memory, the Elves have never in history been under the rule of Men, and I do not see a reason for them to crave it now. Legolas' Ithilien colony is an interesting case, but even here the motives are similar to Gimli's settlement of the Glittering Caves - it's not about whose rule/protection you are under, it's about the beauty of the place.

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The more likely and logical answer I have already addressed. Arwen being the heir of Celeborn/Galadriel, the heir of Elrond and already a great Queen, would be able to grant protection to the elvish realms. In return they would recognise her sovereignty. Similar to the relation that Aragorn had with the King of Dale.
Firstly, Arwen would not be able to grant anything to anyone. She would be able to ask Aragorn to grant protection and whatnot.

But also, what you describe is not similar to Aragorn and the King of Dale. Aragorn didn't claim anything to do with Dale other than to be friends, and all the while I'm sure he would have sent an army there should the need arise. Yes, the two Kings recognize each other's position, but neither claims that he has power over the other because of the help he is granting. That would sound more of a Sauronian argument for the Haradrim/Easterlings - I'll give you [xyz] and you recognize me as your ruler!

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I never argued that Arwen was greater than Galadriel, but that she was great in her own right and accomplished many great things. People too often dismiss the role she played.
Ah, seems like we're finally agreeing on something! I am not trying to prove that Arwen is a brainless duck. I think too that she has a power of her own. But I think that she is still lesser than Galadriel.


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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Well you would be wrong, because this was impossible according to Tolkien. That apart Sauron was a greater power than Galadriel and even if she had the One Ring she would be unable to overcome him.

No one not even the Valar could read the mind of another 'equal being'. .....One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendencies of mind and thought..

Galadriel had a special gift of being able to read people from their previous actions and tendencies. She could not invade Sauron's mind in the way you think. As the article says this is impossible for even the greatest of the Valar to do to the weakest of the Hobbits. Let alone Galadriel trying to do it to a greater power than hers.
I have no clue where you quote from, but in FOTR Galadriel clearly says: "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves." If this does not say that Galadriel knows Sauron's intentions and at least partially reads his thoughts, then the books aree written backwards. She then adds "And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!" There is clearly some mental battle going on here between Galadriel and Sauron, and so far Sauron is NOT winning.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.
I'm assuming you mean that Thranduil would accept Arwen if she proved herself capable. There are two problems with this argument. First and foremost, Arwen never proves herself a capable leader. She only rules second-hand from father and husband. Secondly, Thingol might acknowledge her as a great Elf, as the Queen of Gondor, but not as his own Queen. Why would he? Even if she's great and wonderful and all, there's no reason for him to all of a sudden give her his authority over his people. Moreover, as you yourself said, Elves do not just name a succesor, they choose one. The Elves of Mirkwood had little to nothing to do with Arwen for the past ever. So why would they just wake up one day and decide to follow her?

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Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.
Only as much, if not less, as Aragorn had rights to Arnor when he was the Chieftain of the Dunedain. Oh, it was certainly in his bloodline, but it was like a promise without a written contract. It's empty, other than of history/hope/etc. He has a certain power inherited by the same bloodline, but that is unrelated to his titles.

PS: I am typing as I'm reading along, and I just read that Legate says almost the exact same thing in almost the same words!

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Greatest outright does not mean most powerful. Maeglin is the second greatest Elf in Gondolin, but Ecthelion and Glorfindel are mightier.
But then again - powerful does not only have to refer to political power. And neither does greatness.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
With no one else left on Middle Earth, Arwen could claim the lands through both Finarfin and Fingolfin.
She could, but a) she wouldn't because Elves don't do things that way, they don't just claim lands that they have a vague and distant claim to, especially if it is not the people that chooses them; b) she might as well claim the Helcaraxe too with as much success; c) certainly there were people left in ME other than her, Thranduil now being the most prominent.

I would argue my points further, but I would just be repeating what has been said multiple times by other posters.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:00 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Firstly, once again, Luthien is not Arwen. No one praises Maedhros for Feanor's Silmarils. Why should anyone praise Arwen for Luthien's achievements? Also, I do not believe there is such a desire to get under the protection of the Crown of Gondor. Firstly, if anything, they now need less protection because Sauron's forces are destroyed; while there are still scattered orcs and the likes of them here and there, there is no organized war against them. Moreover, to my memory, the Elves have never in history been under the rule of Men, and I do not see a reason for them to crave it now. Legolas' Ithilien colony is an interesting case, but even here the motives are similar to Gimli's settlement of the Glittering Caves - it's not about whose rule/protection you are under, it's about the beauty of the place.
Arwen is not Luthien, but she reminds the elves of her great ancestress. It's not that they are praising Arwen for Luthien's deeds, but in honour of Luthien acknowledging Arwen's right to rule.

You may not believe there was a desire to get under the protection of the crown, but there clearly was. Fangorn, Dale, The Lonely Mountain, the Shire and the Druadon forest are several such areas, which were under Aragorn's protection Why wouldn't the elves?

You are wrong about there being no organised war.

Aragorn was forced to fight in many wars.

For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and the evil he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace. And where the King Elessar went with war King Eomer went with him; and beyond the sea of Rhun and on the far fields of the South...

There was plainly lots of fighting left to do and near often close to Mirkwood.

Again there is no answer to Tolkien's words that Aragorn soon had an empire.

There is nothing said about his title as King of the West.

You have yet to give a valid reason why the elves alone would not be under his protection when their numbers were dwindling and there were still many foes to subdue?

Why is Arwen Queen of Elves then?

That apart there have been many men that have ruled over elves. Tuor commanded the exiles of Gondolin, whilst Dior was accepted the Half-elven king of Doriath.
Quote:
Firstly, Arwen would not be able to grant anything to anyone. She would be able to ask Aragorn to grant protection and whatnot.
Of course she would she was the Queen of Gondor and other realms.
Quote:
But also, what you describe is not similar to Aragorn and the King of Dale. Aragorn didn't claim anything to do with Dale other than to be friends, and all the while I'm sure he would have sent an army there should the need arise. Yes, the two Kings recognize each other's position, but neither claims that he has power over the other because of the help he is granting. That would sound more of a Sauronian argument for the Haradrim/Easterlings - I'll give you [xyz] and you recognize me as your ruler!
No the King of Dale himself recognises Aragorn's overlordship and willingly submits to his empire. Why would he not want to be part of Aragorn's empire? Aragorn's empire would be similar to the Roman empire of latter days. Most free people of the West, who were not friends of Sauron would want to be part of it.

Aragorn is King of the West. Arwen is Queen of Elves and Men.

Bard and Thorin are both said to be under the crown.
Quote:
Ah, seems like we're finally agreeing on something! I am not trying to prove that Arwen is a brainless duck. I think too that she has a power of her own. But I think that she is still lesser than Galadriel.
I have never argued that Arwen was greater than Galadriel. I pointed out she was more beautiful and less flawed. I never argued she was greater or more powerful. I simply defended Arwen and pointed out that she was powerful and great in her own right.
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I have no clue where you quote from, but in FOTR Galadriel clearly says: "I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves." If this does not say that Galadriel knows Sauron's intentions and at least partially reads his thoughts, then the books aree written backwards. She then adds "And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!" There is clearly some mental battle going on here between Galadriel and Sauron, and so far Sauron is NOT winning.
Yes, but not in the way you think. Sauron was trying to daunt and control Galadriel, but reading another persons mind was something impossible. The quotes come from Morgoth's ring. It just could not be done even by the Valar.

If you flick through the books you will see how Faramir and Denethor can read the hearts of men too.

About Faramir

He (Faramir) read the hearts of men as shrewd as his father.

Quote:
I'm assuming you mean that Thranduil would accept Arwen if she proved herself capable. There are two problems with this argument. First and foremost, Arwen never proves herself a capable leader. She only rules second-hand from father and husband. Secondly, Thingol might acknowledge her as a great Elf, as the Queen of Gondor, but not as his own Queen. Why would he? Even if she's great and wonderful and all, there's no reason for him to all of a sudden give her his authority over his people. Moreover, as you yourself said, Elves do not just name a succesor, they choose one. The Elves of Mirkwood had little to nothing to do with Arwen for the past ever. So why would they just wake up one day and decide to follow her?
You mean like Melian played no role in ruling Doriath? Arwen was very great and queenly.

Elrond himself said

She (Arwen) is too far above you.


Gilraen had previously said this.

Your aim is high even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest than now walks the earth.


Why is it strange that such a woman would be Queen of the remaining elves? Especially as we are told that fact?
Quote:
Only as much, if not less, as Aragorn had rights to Arnor when he was the Chieftain of the Dunedain. Oh, it was certainly in his bloodline, but it was like a promise without a written contract. It's empty, other than of history/hope/etc. He has a certain power inherited by the same bloodline, but that is unrelated to his titles.

PS: I am typing as I'm reading along, and I just read that Legate says almost the exact same thing in almost the same words!
The Dunedaid did not have the money, the power or the opportunity to restore their kingdom. When Sauron was defeated and they had peace they were once again able to restore their previous lands. If the lands of Lindon and Eregion were being abandoned by the elves, who had rights to them? They come down to Aragorn and Arwen and this is why he was King of the West and not just Arnor and Gondor or even the Reunited Kingdom.
Quote:
But then again - powerful does not only have to refer to political power. And neither does greatness.
I never said it did, but just that greatness did not mean power. Only when Tolkien used the word mighty did he mean power.
Quote:
She could, but a) she wouldn't because Elves don't do things that way, they don't just claim lands that they have a vague and distant claim to, especially if it is not the people that chooses them; b) she might as well claim the Helcaraxe too with as much success; c) certainly there were people left in ME other than her, Thranduil now being the most prominent.
Arwen and even Aragorn do not just have a vague claim to these lands. By right they have inherited these lands through many branches of the family and being great and noble rulers, the people would want them as rulers.

It is nonsense to use the Helcaraxe as an example since it was never an Elvish Kingdom.

What do you think happened when Elendil and his sons arrived in ME? What did the Prince of Dol Amroth do? Seeing a great and fair ruler like Elendil he humbly accepted him as his overlord. The Numenoreans of Gondor and Arnor accepted that Elendil as the heir of Elros had a right to the kingship and submitted to his power.

It would seem a similar thing happened when Arwen was appointed Queen as with Elendil's return. Or do you think it is strange that the Faithful in ME readily accepted Elendil as their king and wanted to be part of his empire?
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:18 AM   #114
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It's Elrond 's magic which defeats the 9 all gathered together.

It is Erond, who holds out against Sauron in Imladris.

When it comes to innate power all the quotes suggest that Elrond has the most power out of the non Maiar
It´s Galadriel who holds Saurons army out of Lorien and the Witch King feared her, sauron percived at once that she would be his chief obstacle and there is no proof that Elrond was the mightiest elf out of the non Maia, (more powerful even than Fingolfin and Feanor, or just third age?)that is very far fetched, as a equal of Feanor and the greatest of the elves of Valinor with Feanor and Galadriel being more older, having seen the the light of the trees and being tutored by Melian would make her innate more powerfl. And I think greatest to a degree means the most powerfl too, Sauron was Morgoths greatest servant and we know he was the most powerful.

Galadriels seems to have more effect in Lorien than Elrond in Rivendel, time flew differently

Yes, he defeates all 9 together, with the flood but IMHO, if Galadriel is able to bring down walls and send a mist (so she has power over elements too) she would be able to do the same.

IMHO you read this "especially Elrond" the wrong way, and even if you read it right, it was probably written before Galadriels might emerged in Tolkiens mind.

Quote:
In every sense when he wants to talk about sheer innate power or superior ability he uses mightiest.
Elrond is never called the mightiest, so assuming that is only your opinion. Galadriel however is said to be the mightiest of the elves in the third age and because Elrond chose to be conted among the Eldar he is included in that quote.

Quote:
Elrond has the mightiest elven ring, Elrond is the most likely to be able to overthrow Sauron outside the Istari.
Only if you read the passage like you do and true, he holds the mightiest of the three, but he wasn´t even the original bearer and it was coincidence that he got the ring, would Gil Galad haved survived, Elrond would´t have a ring.

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Old 12-15-2012, 01:47 AM   #115
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It seems to me you main argument is that he is decended from Melian (so would Elwing and Dior more powerful than Galadriel too? I seriously doubt that) and teh passage, which meaning is not very clear and debatable. But he doesn´t show some deeds so one could assume that he has more power, Galadriel makes the more magical impression in Lotr. Galadriels home is next to the home of the enemy, while Elrond is hidden in a valley and not easy to find, nothing indicates that he uses the same magic Galadriel does to defend his home. He is shown to have control over the river, he is the best in healing, very wise and fought in a war, but sorry I see no evidence that supports your claim. Like I said, Galadriel did simarlar deeds with her destroying the walls of Dol Goldr and sending the mist, furthermore she gave the fellowship lembas, which was a magical deed to do and the phial, and from he phial I got the impression that this is not something everyone could do. Not to forget the mallon seed, there was some power in the dust and seed so that the shire was beautiful again.

Galadriel was able to see that Gandalf was alive, while for Elrond everything lies under a shadow, so she send Gwaihir to look for Gandalf, that shows that she even had some athority over the eagles, strange for someone being banned.

She wanted Gandalf to be the head of the council which she summoned, not Elrond, but it seems that she was the one who wanted that. Already at that early point she sensed that Saruman would betray them and so mistrusted him from the beginning.

I don´t think Elrond or Cirdan (even if he have him his ring) would have voted for Gandalf, because that would go against the wishes of the Valar, but Galadriel, like always did not care, and was proven right.

For me it is really impressive that she was able to see the potential evil in him, which the Valar couldn´t, save Varda, she seemingly sensed the same.

Not to forget the mirror of Galadriel. She was able to see the past, the presend and the future, that is a powerful tool. All that claims that she is inherntly more powerful than Elrond.

Actually there is no need in proving that, you just have to look what Tolkien wrote of her in his later days, like for example the equal of Feanor, greatest of the Eldar of Valinor and mightiest and greatest of the Eldar in the third age quote and Elrond, even if half-elven, is included in that, because he made the decission to belong to the elves.

Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-15-2012 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:08 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
As for Thranduil, he was Sindar by origin and under Thingol. Why wouldn't he accept the heir of Thingol if she proved herself a capable leader? He had a far closer relationship with men than most other elves at the time.
So why didn't he accept Elrond already ages ago? The question is still the same. Why would the Wood-Elves suddenly change their thinking?

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To claim there was just a few elves defeats the purpose of Arwen being their Queen. What is the point of being Queen of a small group? Even the Kings of Arthedain gave up the title king, though they would have had numbers in the 100. Why would Arwen take it if there were so few elves left to accept her?
Well exactly. That's why I am saying that the title does not make any sense. It is there only as a remider, so that we, as readers, are aware "hey, by the way, you know that even though she had like 100 'subjects', she still was the Queen of Elves?". Also, what supports this is the fact that Tolkien does not mention it anywhere else but in this one sentence in the Appendices. It was not important, because being the Queen of Elves meant being the queen of a hundred Elves (who are pretty much free anyway).

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Here we see Aragorn soon rules over an empire with other kings under even Dain and Bard excepting his protection. It is not hard to believe that Thrandiul and other elves would come to a similar agreement like Thorin, especially with the threats from the East.
That is fine. But there is difference between being subject to someone and being an ally to someone, or under his protection. The Elven realms were NOT part of the kingdom.

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Your problem is that you seem to be under the perception that thousands of elves could leave ME instantly. Where were the ships to take them? Even if they wished to leave straight away such a migration would take tens of years and by all accounts they did not want to leave immediately.
What "instantly"? Please reread my post. The Elves had been leaving throughout years during the Third Age, and further on during the Fourth.

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Aragorn we are told leads a confederation of united allies and many of them are under his crown. Stands to reason the Elves too would accept his protection and kingship. Whilst there is no reason to assume all the elves had left just 120 years after the ring was destroyed.
Not all, but almost all. Most importantly, basically all the former Sindar etc. would have left. Those who would have remained would have been the Wood-Elves. And they, as I have argued earlier, are not part of the "inheritance" of Arwen's "queenship", since they never were subjects to any Elven kings of old.

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No there was still thousands of elves in Mirkwood. Without taking his full force, Thranduil can take 1000 elvish warriors to the battle of five armies. That alone means the population numbered in their thousands.
Sure, sure. But the Elves of Mirkwood are not our concern. They are Avari. They are on their own.

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Then there is the population in Lorien, which seemed equally as numerous. But we learn these people soon leave.
Exactly. And so do those in Rivendell (and Havens).

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Many would be all of Lindon and Eregion since she was the only heir of the Noldor left. Have you actually seen the size of the Lindon etc? Even if it was sparsely populated it was land she had rights to.
What Eregion, please? Eregion was empty since the time Sauron sacked it ages ago.

As for Lindon, true, we are not told how many Elves lived there. However, it is strongly implied that the Elves living along the shore were slowly leaving throughout ages, as those in Grey Havens. So I certainly wouldn't imagine something like suddenly discovering another couple of thousand Elves in Lindon who could become a part of Arwen's "realm". I stand by the original thought of a few hundred mariners, only waiting to call it off and eventually leave.

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Again you only focus on how Aragorn was King of Arnor and Gondor, but he was Lord of the West and had many lands under his protection and crown. Tolkien outright tells us he was an Imperial Power. Arwen is called Queen of Elves. Considering both Dale and The Lonely Mountain accept Aragorn's authority, I fail to see how hard it is to believe so did the remaining elves. Especially since we are again explicitly told she was Queen of Elves and Men.
Okay, I think with this I finally understood where you are coming from. But that is pure speculation. And even then, once again, this was the Age of Men. Being the Queen of Elves really meant nothing in Middle-Earth anymore, to put it bluntly.
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:48 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
So why didn't he accept Elrond already ages ago? The question is still the same. Why would the Wood-Elves suddenly change their thinking?
Who said Elrond wanted to be king? Did Elrond even have the means to be a king? You might as well as why Luthien did not become Queen of Doriath.

That apart circumstances change. Being united to a great confederation is a great pull. Just look at how keen people are to join the European Union.
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Well exactly. That's why I am saying that the title does not make any sense. It is there only as a remider, so that we, as readers, are aware "hey, by the way, you know that even though she had like 100 'subjects', she still was the Queen of Elves?". Also, what supports this is the fact that Tolkien does not mention it anywhere else but in this one sentence in the Appendices. It was not important, because being the Queen of Elves meant being the queen of a hundred Elves (who are pretty much free anyway).
There is much Tolkien does not mention except in the Appendices. This was a development that would begin in the fourth age. It is still an idea Tolkien retains and we have further evidence of other kingdoms willingly joining .
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That is fine. But there is difference between being subject to someone and being an ally to someone, or under his protection. The Elven realms were NOT part of the kingdom.
Well the relationships between each kingdom and Aragorn seemed depended on what they wished. Rohan and a lot of the Shire were not under the crown, but Dale was and Umbar. You are too keen to dismiss Arwen's royal title and ignore the many other examples of kingdoms desiring to be linked to King of the West.
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What "instantly"? Please reread my post. The Elves had been leaving throughout years during the Third Age, and further on during the Fourth.
Even at the end of the Third Age, Mirkwood alone had thousands of elves. As I said before a conservative estimate would be around 5,000.
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Not all, but almost all. Most importantly, basically all the former Sindar etc. would have left. Those who would have remained would have been the Wood-Elves. And they, as I have argued earlier, are not part of the "inheritance" of Arwen's "queenship", since they never were subjects to any Elven kings of old.
Why would all the Sindar have left? As I said it would take perhaps a 100 years for all the elves to leave and this was if they wanted to leave immediately after the end of the fourth age.

The Sindar kings of the wood elves are in a similar position to the Numenoreans in ME, when Elendil arrived. What did the Prince of Dol Amroth do when Elendil had established a kingdom? He accepted Elendil's position as the faithful heir of Elros and consequently ruler of the Numenoreans. Why wouldn't the Sindar now that Arwen was Queen of a great kingdom?

Even if Eregion and Lindon were emptying, the land was hers by right. Aragorn was a just king and would not expand into land, which did not belong to him. What other kings did after was there business, but Aragorn would only take lands, that wished to join or were his by right.
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Sure, sure. But the Elves of Mirkwood are not our concern. They are Avari. They are on their own.
Not of all of them, there would be a few Sindar and Nandor amongst them.
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Exactly. And so do those in Rivendell (and Havens).
Yes, but not immediately and many would remain until the death of Aragorn.
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What Eregion, please? Eregion was empty since the time Sauron sacked it ages ago.
Yes, but Arwen also inherited the lands, which were hers by right.
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As for Lindon, true, we are not told how many Elves lived there. However, it is strongly implied that the Elves living along the shore were slowly leaving throughout ages, as those in Grey Havens. So I certainly wouldn't imagine something like suddenly discovering another couple of thousand Elves in Lindon who could become a part of Arwen's "realm". I stand by the original thought of a few hundred mariners, only waiting to call it off and eventually leave.
There was enough power in Lindon to withstand Sauron for a while, even at the end of the third age. There was probably a few thousand elves still living there.
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Okay, I think with this I finally understood where you are coming from. But that is pure speculation. And even then, once again, this was the Age of Men. Being the Queen of Elves really meant nothing in Middle-Earth anymore, to put it bluntly.
If being the Queen of Elves meant nothing, then why was Arwen given the title, when Galadriel and Elrond never took royal titles? It must have had some significance and we can see that other kingdoms including even dwarves wished to be under the crown.
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Old 12-15-2012, 09:05 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
It seems to me you main argument is that he is decended from Melian (so would Elwing and Dior more powerful than Galadriel too? I seriously doubt that) and teh passage, which meaning is not very clear and debatable. But he doesn´t show some deeds so one could assume that he has more power, Galadriel makes the more magical impression in Lotr. Galadriels home is next to the home of the enemy, while Elrond is hidden in a valley and not easy to find, nothing indicates that he uses the same magic Galadriel does to defend his home. He is shown to have control over the river, he is the best in healing, very wise and fought in a war, but sorry I see no evidence that supports your claim. Like I said, Galadriel did simarlar deeds with her destroying the walls of Dol Goldr and sending the mist, furthermore she gave the fellowship lembas, which was a magical deed to do and the phial, and from he phial I got the impression that this is not something everyone could do. Not to forget the mallon seed, there was some power in the dust and seed so that the shire was beautiful again.
The passage is very clear and even more so if you take into account the context of character. Elwing and Dior were powerful, but we really do not know much about them. Elwing was able to learn to fly and Dior dies very early before they can mature and grow in power. Dior at the least was a great warrior and one of the best elvish fighters.

Elrond has an enchantment around Rivendell making it difficult to find, is the greatest healer, has the second greatest foresight, the most lore and himself was a great warrior.
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Galadriel was able to see that Gandalf was alive, while for Elrond everything lies under a shadow, so she send Gwaihir to look for Gandalf, that shows that she even had some athority over the eagles, strange for someone being banned.
You are just making things up. She had no authority over the eagles. No one did.
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She wanted Gandalf to be the head of the council which she summoned, not Elrond, but it seems that she was the one who wanted that. Already at that early point she sensed that Saruman would betray them and so mistrusted him from the beginning.

I don´t think Elrond or Cirdan (even if he have him his ring) would have voted for Gandalf, because that would go against the wishes of the Valar, but Galadriel, like always did not care, and was proven right.

For me it is really impressive that she was able to see the potential evil in him, which the Valar couldn´t, save Varda, she seemingly sensed the same.
Going against the Valar's wishes is not a good thing. Elrond was the one, who constantly argued against Saruman's council.

He said he felt the ring would be found.
He urged them to attack Dol Guldur earlier.

Elrond, however, respected the hierarchy the Valar had put in place as did Gandalf.
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Not to forget the mirror of Galadriel. She was able to see the past, the presend and the future, that is a powerful tool. All that claims that she is inherntly more powerful than Elrond.
Nope Elrond had greater knowledge about the lore of the past and greater foresight of the future.
[QUOTE
Actually there is no need in proving that, you just have to look what Tolkien wrote of her in his later days, like for example the equal of Feanor, greatest of the Eldar of Valinor and mightiest and greatest of the Eldar in the third age quote and Elrond, even if half-elven, is included in that, because he made the decission to belong to the elves.[/QUOTE]
We have been over this and will not get into it again. I have shown and given countless quotes showing Elrond was not one of the Eldar, but one of the Half-elven.

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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
It´s Galadriel who holds Saurons army out of Lorien and the Witch King feared her, sauron percived at once that she would be his chief obstacle and there is no proof that Elrond was the mightiest elf out of the non Maia, (more powerful even than Fingolfin and Feanor, or just third age?)that is very far fetched, as a equal of Feanor and the greatest of the elves of Valinor with Feanor and Galadriel being more older, having seen the the light of the trees and being tutored by Melian would make her innate more powerfl. And I think greatest to a degree means the most powerfl too, Sauron was Morgoths greatest servant and we know he was the most powerful.

Galadriels seems to have more effect in Lorien than Elrond in Rivendel, time flew differently
The same with Rivendell, but Elrond held off the armies of Sauron.

Greatest does not mean powerful and I have provided evidence for this too. Glaurung was called the greatest of the dragons, but Ancalagon was the most powerful and the mightiest.
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Yes, he defeates all 9 together, with the flood but IMHO, if Galadriel is able to bring down walls and send a mist (so she has power over elements too) she would be able to do the same.

IMHO you read this "especially Elrond" the wrong way, and even if you read it right, it was probably written before Galadriels might emerged in Tolkiens mind.
Elrond remained a great power through out Tolkien's legendarium. You cannot make an argument on things Tolkien may have done. We have the myths as they are laid out.
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Elrond is never called the mightiest, so assuming that is only your opinion. Galadriel however is said to be the mightiest of the elves in the third age and because Elrond chose to be conted among the Eldar he is included in that quote.
Again Elrond was never an Elf. We have a direct comparison in their innate power in wielding the ring and Sauron is said to be more powerful.
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Only if you read the passage like you do and true, he holds the mightiest of the three, but he wasn´t even the original bearer and it was coincidence that he got the ring, would Gil Galad haved survived, Elrond would´t have a ring.
Gil-galad gave Elrond the ring long before he died. So yes he would still have received the mightiest of the rings.
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Old 12-15-2012, 09:29 AM   #119
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Nope Elrond had greater knowledge about the lore of the past and greater foresight of the future.
What, Elrond has greater knowlege about the past than Galadriel who actually experianced that??!! And who was a match for the loremaster in Valinor, so that would include Rumil
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An Elven loremaster, the inventor of written letters. His invention was later bettered by Fëanor, but Rúmil remains famous as the originator of writing.
And could look more into the future like Galadriel, who is said to be able to look in the future via her mirror? Forsight is kinda different than looking into the future.

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I have shown and given countless quotes showing Elrond was not one of the Eldar, but one of the Half-elven.
He chose to be counted among the Eldar and is included if Tolkien talks about elves. Even Arwen was acounted as Eldar, i.e. third marriege between the Eldar and Edain. He had to chose for one and all, beacuse there should be no in-between race, that however doesn´t change what he is genetically.Where´s the problem? He belongs to the elves, Arwen belongs to men, Elros belogs to men, Tuor belongs to the elves, more be precise to the Noldor.

Really, I don´t understand! Galadriel + Feanor = equal (according to Tolkien) and greatest of the Noldor (whatever greatness means) So how can Elrond be more powerful than Galadriel if Galadriel was equal in might to Feanor.

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Going against the Valar's wishes is not a good thing. Elrond was the one, who constantly argued against Saruman's council. Where and when?
Ah OK, even if Galadriel know for sure that she was doing the right thing, because Saruman was not trustworthy, she shouldn´t do it because it´s against the valar wishes. If that is true, why had she got a brain?

It´s hopeless.

Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-15-2012 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 12-15-2012, 10:04 AM   #120
cellurdur
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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
What, Elrond has greater knowlege about the past than Galadriel who actually experianced that??!! And who was a match for the loremaster in Valinor, so that would include Rumil
And could look more into the future like Galadriel, who is said to be able to look in the future via her mirror? Forsight is kinda different than looking into the future.
Yep both are true. Elrond was the greatest lore master and he alone knew the full account of many of the stories. Galadriel passed into the east very early in Beleriand. Elrond fought in the Last Alliance, fought alongside Numenor and was there when Sauron was defeated.

Foresight includes knowledge of the future. The only person who had greater knowledge of the future than Elrond was Cirdan. I have read up on this and it was due to a special gift he received from the Valar, because of his great sacrifice for others. Cirdan could see the future about ever aspect of Middle Earth and he alone surpassed Elrond.
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He chose to be counted among the Eldar and is included if Tolkien talks about elves. Even Arwen was acounted as Eldar, i.e. third marriege between the Eldar and Edain. He had to chose for one and all, beacuse there should be no in-between race, that however doesn´t change what he is genetically.Where´s the problem? He belongs to the elves, Arwen belongs to men, Elros belogs to men, Tuor belongs to the elves, more be precise to the Noldor.
Yet there is an inbetween race the Half-Elven. The sons of Elrond are not included among the Elves.

Elrond is never called an elf lord.

Aragorn says Elrond is the oldest of his race.

Tolkien took great pains to never mention Elrond as an elf. If you really want then I will provide several quotes showing you Elrond was never an Elf.
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Really, I don´t understand! Galadriel + Feanor = equal (according to Tolkien) and greatest of the Noldor (whatever greatness means) So how can Elrond be more powerful than Galadriel if Galadriel was equal in might to Feanor.
1. Elrond was not of the Noldor.
2. Feanor and Galadriel are not equal in power. Feanor is the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel is only referred to as mighty among the Noldor.


We have a direct comparison between the two and Elrond is shown to be stronger. You cannot refute this direct comparison.
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Ah OK, even if Galadriel know for sure that she was doing the right thing, because Saruman was not trustworthy, she shouldn´t do it because it´s against the valar wishes. If that is true, why had she got a brain?

It´s hopeless.
Usurping power is wrong, when an authoritative figure has not yet erred. To disagree with his council is fine and it is actually Elrond, who is the one constantly rejecting and arguing against Saruman. That apart Saruman was once great and wise. He was appointed as head of the order by the Valar and the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf accepted this.
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