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Old 12-15-2012, 10:36 AM   #121
elbenprincess
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2. Feanor and Galadriel are not equal in power. Feanor is the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel is only referred to as mighty among the Noldor.
How do you know that, Tolkien didnīt write what they are equal in, just that they are equal with differnet talents. But in all other aspects, intelligence, innate power for example they are equal.She is not only refered as great among the Noldor but greatest of all the elves of Valinor with Feanor.

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He was appointed as head of the order by the Valar and the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf accepted this.
Today 09:29 AM
Saruman was not the wisest, Olorin was /is.

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Yet there is an inbetween race the Half-Elven.
I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien didnīt want there to be a in-between race, thatīs the reason they had to decide, there can only be elves and men (if we leave out hobbits and dwarfs). Alas I canīt remember where.

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Yep both are true. Elrond was the greatest lore master and he alone knew the full account of many of the stories.
Can you prove it? And only because Galadriel went early out of Beleriand doesnīt mean that she knows nothing about her own history or that of men.

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Elrond was not of the Noldor
Of course he is not, but he can not match Feanor and if Galadriel is short behind Feanor, or even his equal then logic says us that Elrond is inferior to Galadriel. Method of elimination.

Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-15-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:06 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
How do you know that, Tolkien didnīt write what they are equal in, just that they are equal with differnet talents. But in all other aspects, intelligence, innate power for example they are equal.She is not only refered as great among the Noldor but greatest of all the elves of Valinor with Feanor.
We know this, because Tolkien called Feanor the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel on the other hand is never called the mightiest of the Noldor.
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Saruman was not the wisest, Olorin was /is.
This is my fault, I accidentally put the comma in the wrong place. I meant Gandalf the wisest of the Maiar accepted Saruman as the head.
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I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien didnīt want there to be a in-between race, thatīs the reason they had to decide, there can only be elves and men (if we leave out hobbits and dwarfs). Alas I canīt remember where.
I don't remember reading anything of the sort and the Half-Elven are their ow separate race, at least until the elvish blood thinned to a great extent. Earendil especially just gets the best qualities from both races.
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Can you prove it? And only because Galadriel went early out of Beleriand doesnīt mean that she knows nothing about her own history or that of men.
The previous quote about Cirdan's knowledge of the future surpassing even Elrond in Middle Earth is enough to show he had greater knowledge of the future.

As for Lore he is said to be

Wise in all Lore

about the lay of Luthien.

and there are none now , except Elrond, that remember it aright as it was told of old.


where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt greatest of lore masters


Is there anything to suggest Galadriel was greater than Elrond?
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:28 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
You may not believe there was a desire to get under the protection of the crown, but there clearly was. Fangorn, Dale, The Lonely Mountain, the Shire and the Druadon forest are several such areas, which were under Aragorn's protection Why wouldn't the elves?
Because none of these paces bent the metaphorical knee and begged Aragorn to take them under his wing. Because Aragorn protected whoever needed protection without requiring that they ask it of him, or that they trade their idependence for it. Because the Elves can and did take help and protection from Men, and would take it again, but not at the price of colonizing them.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
You have yet to give a valid reason why the elves alone would not be under his protection when their numbers were dwindling and there were still many foes to subdue?
They would not not be under his protection. They would not be under his protection in return for sovereignty. You have to give a reason why they would all of a sudden, after 3 Ages of forming their relationships, decide that they want to go under Men's rule. Protection is not a reason; Aragorn offered and gave aid to whoever needed it without requiring that they become his subjects. A mutual understanding does not ammount to sovereignty.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Why is Arwen Queen of Elves then?
She couldn't be in any realistic way. Legate does a great job describing it.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
That apart there have been many men that have ruled over elves. Tuor commanded the exiles of Gondolin, whilst Dior was accepted the Half-elven king of Doriath.
Tuor lead the exiles of Gondolin, Turin gave Beleg some orders, and there are possibly a few others. As it happens, neither is King, neither demands of the Elves to swear fealty or to formally become his subjects. It all depends on the Elves' free will. As it happens, I don't see the Elves all rushing to Gondor. If Aragorn would have asked them to do something, I'm sure they would have helped him. But he cannot command them. He is not their King in any formal sense.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
No the King of Dale himself recognises Aragorn's overlordship and willingly submits to his empire. Why would he not want to be part of Aragorn's empire? Aragorn's empire would be similar to the Roman empire of latter days. Most free people of the West, who were not friends of Sauron would want to be part of it.
At least because people too have their personal pride. Because you don't go to the winner and say can I join you. The people of the West all had a mutual relationship with Aragorn that if one needs help the other gives it. Is that what you consider to be overlordship? In that case, go ahead.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Yes, but not in the way you think. Sauron was trying to daunt and control Galadriel, but reading another persons mind was something impossible. The quotes come from Morgoth's ring. It just could not be done even by the Valar.

If you flick through the books you will see how Faramir and Denethor can read the hearts of men too.
Many men can read others' hearts. So could Galadriel. But the cannonical text says that Galadriel knew Sauron's mind. Can you argue that Galadriel was then lying about it?

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Elrond himself said

She (Arwen) is too far above you.


Gilraen had previously said this.

Your aim is high even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest than now walks the earth.


Why is it strange that such a woman would be Queen of the remaining elves? Especially as we are told that fact?
For all that she is great and fair and etc, what has she done for the Elves that they elect her their Queen?

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
I never said it did, but just that greatness did not mean power. Only when Tolkien used the word mighty did he mean power.
This is a hard thing to agrue, because what do you mean by power? To me, power is both greatness and might, both innate and political and physical and whatever other connotation you could find.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Arwen and even Aragorn do not just have a vague claim to these lands. By right they have inherited these lands through many branches of the family and being great and noble rulers, the people would want them as rulers.
Would they? Would they really want someone else ruling over them, no matter how mighty/great/powerful? After Ages of controling themselves? Put yourself in your situation. Imagine your country's ruler would disappear, and a neighbouring country would say that it's taking you under it's protection and control. Would you praise it for that?

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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
Galadriel was able to see that Gandalf was alive, while for Elrond everything lies under a shadow, so she send Gwaihir to look for Gandalf, that shows that she even had some athority over the eagles, strange for someone being banned.
I generally agree with what you're saying, but not with this. I think she only "sent" Gwaihir because he allowed her to send him. It's not an authority, it's Gwaihir's helpfulness.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Even at the end of the Third Age, Mirkwood alone had thousands of elves. As I said before a conservative estimate would be around 5,000.
Yes, Mirkwood alone, which is of the Avari and none of Arwen's inheritance anyways.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Not of all of them, there would be a few Sindar and Nandor amongst them.
Sindar and Nandor that accepted Thranduil as their King, not Arwen as their Queen.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
There was enough power in Lindon to withstand Sauron for a while, even at the end of the third age. There was probably a few thousand elves still living there.
Did Sauron now magically fly over the entire Western part of ME to get to Lindon? It was not directly attacked in any way at the end of the TA.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Greatest does not mean powerful and I have provided evidence for this too. Glaurung was called the greatest of the dragons, but Ancalagon was the most powerful and the mightiest.
Well, actually, in this case I would say that Glaurung is both greatest in terms of deeds and innate power, and Ancalagon mostly in terms of physical strength.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Yep both are true. Elrond was the greatest lore master and he alone knew the full account of many of the stories. Galadriel passed into the east very early in Beleriand. Elrond fought in the Last Alliance, fought alongside Numenor and was there when Sauron was defeated.
Sure, and Elrond wasn't even born when Galadriel "passed into the East". Your point?

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Originally Posted by cellurdur
Foresight includes knowledge of the future. The only person who had greater knowledge of the future than Elrond was Cirdan. I have read up on this and it was due to a special gift he received from the Valar, because of his great sacrifice for others. Cirdan could see the future about ever aspect of Middle Earth and he alone surpassed Elrond.
Foresight is not the same as knowledge of the future. Foresight more of a foreboding (but could also be in a positive sense), and knowledge is for sure. Galadriel had both the foresight and the knowledge.

You completely disregard Galadriel's talents. No one is saying that Elrond and Cirdan don't have it, just that having it doesn't outmaster Galadriel - who happens to have it too.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur
Yet there is an inbetween race the Half-Elven. The sons of Elrond are not included among the Elves.
Not for long. Every half-elf has to make a choice. Mortal or Elf. You cannot live as a peredhil forever.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur
Elrond is never called an elf lord.
And? His daughter is named one of the Eldar.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur
Aragorn says Elrond is the oldest of his race.
Seeing as he's his uncle a bagillion times removed I wouldn't doubt it. Aragorn was not 100% man either, though he was enough Man to be mortal and not half-elf.

Plus, if you take this as an argument that Elrond is never incuded in the Eldar, you are arguing that either Aragorn is half-elven or that Elrond is a Man, and that is not true.

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Originally Posted by cellurdur
Usurping power is wrong, when an authoritative figure has not yet erred. To disagree with his council is fine and it is actually Elrond, who is the one constantly rejecting and arguing against Saruman. That apart Saruman was once great and wise. He was appointed as head of the order by the Valar and the wisest of the Maiar, Gandalf accepted this.
Usurping whose power? The power of someone who was not yet appointed to his position? Being head of the Istari does not automatically make you head of all the councils and whatnot.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:34 AM   #124
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Is there anything to suggest Galadriel was greater than Elrond?
The story. Read the Rivendell chapters. Read the Lorien chapters. Feel the difference.

Rivendell is Elvish, sure enough, but it is more of a "contemporary" kind.

Lorien is ancient, magical, etc.


Just read the text and feel the atmosphere. You don't need to have it writted black on white that Rivendell was greatest of Elf kingdoms or Lothlorien was greatest of Elf Kingdoms to see the difference.

They were both great. Both powerful. But powerful in a different way. Rivendell holds more the power of action (being the HQ of half the deeds of the TA, with a bit of an exaggeration). Lothlorien holds more innate power.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:44 AM   #125
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Ok, there are a lot of arguments here that I want to sift through...it's rather difficult when not all quotes get properly cited. I'm going to jump around between different posts, so bare with me...

First, to get it quickly resolved, elben is correct that Galadriel saw Gandalf's return and sent Gwaihir to get him:

Quote:
"Do not let me fall!" I gasped, for I felt life in me again. "Bear me to Lothlorien!"
"That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you." he answered.~The White Rider
Now as far as Galadriel reading minds. If I missed the quote cellurdur, I apologize and forgive me for asking again, but I still haven't a clue where you got it from. Not that I doubt you, because I can definitely tell you know your stuff, but it would be immensely helpful to actually get the proper references instead of digging to find the quotes you bold in your posts.

From what I've been able to glean (and this might change, depending on if I can find the part cellurdur is referring to about no being has the ability to read another's mind)...Galadriel could perceive thoughts and minds. It may not be a direct invasion of the mind, but it is still a powerful ability Galadriel possesses. That I don't think can be denied. I mean read The Mirror of Galadriel, where each of the Fellowship felt they were being examined, tested, and felt awkwardly "naked" in front of Galadriel. Add on top of it, the Halbarad arrives with the Dunedain to Aragorn's aid, because Galadriel saw that's what Aragorn desired and thus sent out word:

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"They answered a summons, as you heard" said Gimli. "Word came to Rivendell, they say: Aragorn has need of his kindred! Let the Dunedain ride to him in Rohan! But whence this message came they are now in doubt. Gandalf sent it, I would guess."
"Nay, Galadriel," said Legolas. "Did she not speak through Gandalf of the ride of the Grey Company through the North?"
"Yes, you have it," said Gimli. "The Lady of the Wood! She read many hearts and desires..."~The Passing of the Grey Company
It's clear to be a power that Galadriel possesses and is quite the master at it. For it was also Galadriel who wanted Gandalf to head the White Council, and not Saruman.

There is also, quite clearly, a power that exists in Lothlorien, that comes from Galadriel, and can only be overthrown by Sauron:

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Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.~Appendix B: Tale of Years
The same might be said for Elrond in Rivendell, but Gandalf's statement that Rivendell would be the last to fall is rather moot. As G55 said, there's the geographic reason that it would be the last conquered. There is no way around it, Galadriel's power in Lorien could not be overcome, unless Sauron came there himself.

I had more specifically about Aragorn's kingdom, but my time is pressing, so I'll have to get to that later.

Cheers. Excellent discussion, if I may say.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:50 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
The story. Read the Rivendell chapters. Read the Lorien chapters. Feel the difference.

Rivendell is Elvish, sure enough, but it is more of a "contemporary" kind.

Lorien is ancient, magical, etc.


Just read the text and feel the atmosphere. You don't need to have it writted black on white that Rivendell was greatest of Elf kingdoms or Lothlorien was greatest of Elf Kingdoms to see the difference.

They were both great. Both powerful. But powerful in a different way. Rivendell holds more the power of action (being the HQ of half the deeds of the TA, with a bit of an exaggeration). Lothlorien holds more innate power.
Part of the difference is that Elrond is not an Elf.

The other part of it is that Lothlorien is the elves in their own element. In their own natural kingdom. Rivendell is just a refuge.
As Sam puts it.

They're all elves enough, but they are not all the same. Now these folk are not wanderers or homeless, and seem a bit nearer to the likes of us: they seem to belong here, more even than the Hobbits in the Shire.
-LOTR

That said the magic in Rivendell is different. It is a perfect house.

“Rivendell was the perfect house, whether you liked food or story-telling or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all. Merely to be there was a cure for weariness, fear and sadness.”

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Because none of these paces bent the metaphorical knee and begged Aragorn to take them under his wing. Because Aragorn protected whoever needed protection without requiring that they ask it of him, or that they trade their idependence for it. Because the Elves can and did take help and protection from Men, and would take it again, but not at the price of colonizing them.
Of course Aragorn would protect them no matter what, but at the same time people want to be associated with his kingdom. There is one thing being a family friend, but it is another thing being adopted into the family.

With Arwen the Sindar are likely to view it as a continuation of Thingol's rule. The Numenoreans on ME did a similar thing with Elendil. Accepting Elendil as king was a way to hark back to the days of Elros.
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They would not not be under his protection. They would not be under his protection in return for sovereignty. You have to give a reason why they would all of a sudden, after 3 Ages of forming their relationships, decide that they want to go under Men's rule. Protection is not a reason; Aragorn offered and gave aid to whoever needed it without requiring that they become his subjects. A mutual understanding does not ammount to sovereignty.
When it comes to Dale and the Mountain, it is outright stated they accepted Aragorn's sovereignty.

Arwen is Queen of the Elves. A title not claimed by anyone since Thingol. It obvious has more meaning than the a courtesy.

I have already mentioned how being part of a kingdom is often more attractive than just being a friend. If only for a short while being ruled under Thingol's heir would remind the Sindar of the old days, of Dior and Thingol.
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She couldn't be in any realistic way. Legate does a great job describing it.
Well that was her title and it means she was in a realistic way. To dismiss the text when it clearly spells it out is to go against what the author is telling us. Nobody had claimed such a title on ME since Thingol.
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Tuor lead the exiles of Gondolin, Turin gave Beleg some orders, and there are possibly a few others. As it happens, neither is King, neither demands of the Elves to swear fealty or to formally become his subjects. It all depends on the Elves' free will. As it happens, I don't see the Elves all rushing to Gondor. If Aragorn would have asked them to do something, I'm sure they would have helped him. But he cannot command them. He is not their King in any formal sense.
Tuor leads the exiles of Gondolin and rules them.
Turin all but in name rules Nargothrond.
Dior one of the Half-elven actually is king in name and actuality of Doriath.

The elves are not rushing to become part of Gondor. They are joining the united alliance and accepting Arwen as their Queen.

Tuor and Turin despite ruling had no legitimate claim to the kingship. Dior does and all the Sindar acknowledge him as Thingol's heir and king. The same applies to Arwen.

Elendil and the Prince of Dol Amroth is the perfect example. Actually the Princes of Dol Amroth even accept Isildur and Anarion due to them being heirs of Elros. Arwen is the heir of Thingol, the heir of Finarfin, the Heir of Elwe and the heir of Fingolfin.
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At least because people too have their personal pride. Because you don't go to the winner and say can I join you. The people of the West all had a mutual relationship with Aragorn that if one needs help the other gives it. Is that what you consider to be overlordship? In that case, go ahead.
No Rohan and the Shire had mutual relationships, without being under the crown. This seems to be a different case with Dale and the Mountain. They want to be under the crown. People have their pride and they want to be associated with winners. For hundreds of years after the fall of the Roman empire, any claim to rule most of western Europe was based on descent from Rome.

As for the elves they would not just be accepting a winner, but harking back to their glory days. By accepting the heir of Thingol, who had once taken the title King of Elves.
[QUOTE]
Many men can read others' hearts. So could Galadriel. But the cannonical text says that Galadriel knew Sauron's mind. Can you argue that Galadriel was then lying about it?[/QUOTE[
No, but it does not mean what you think it does. Though in that context the 'hearts' and 'minds' of men mean the same thing. It is the ability to read men and judge how they act and want to act. Galadriel had a special talent for this.
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For all that she is great and fair and etc, what has she done for the Elves that they elect her their Queen?
Simply, because she is great, noble and fair is a reason to let her rule. The elves of Nargothrond give Turin the rule of the city for such reasons. That apart there is also her rightful descent as heir to Thingol and the memory of Luthien.

Why did Thingol adopt Turin if not for the bravery of Hurin? Why did the elves accept Dior as king if not for the deeds of Luthien, Beren and Thingol.

In Arwen even for a briefest of moments was a chance to recall the glory of Doriath when Luthien was there. The palace in Mirkwood, is but a cheap copy of Menegroth.
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This is a hard thing to agrue, because what do you mean by power? To me, power is both greatness and might, both innate and political and physical and whatever other connotation you could find.
Power no matter whether it being innate, political or physical is in the what you can do in a certain area. It means being the best in the field.

Greatness is linked to more to what you achieved, how you are perceived and power is mixed in there too. The next Prince of Dol Amroth will immediately become a greater noble than Faramir when he takes the principality.
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Would they? Would they really want someone else ruling over them, no matter how mighty/great/powerful? After Ages of controling themselves? Put yourself in your situation. Imagine your country's ruler would disappear, and a neighbouring country would say that it's taking you under it's protection and control. Would you praise it for that?
The difference is that Arwen is not some neighbouring monarch. She is the rightful heir Thingol. She looks like Luthien.

Many times in history countries have accepted kings from other lands, because they were the rightful heir. England and Scotland were eventually united, because King James was heir of England and Scotland. England happily accepted a Scottish King. There are many examples of this across history.
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Yes, Mirkwood alone, which is of the Avari and none of Arwen's inheritance anyways.
Mirkwood is ruled by the Sindar and would have a mixed population. They accepted a Sindar to rule them once, why would they complain when an even greater Sindar accepted by their king. To see Arwen is to be reminded of Luthien. The hatred Thranduil bears for the dwarves is linked to the fall of Doriath.

Look at the modern example of Prince Michael of Kent and how he is courted in Russia due to his resemblance to the Tsar. The situation is infinitely greater with Arwen, who resembles the greatest and most loved out of all elves.
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Sindar and Nandor that accepted Thranduil as their King, not Arwen as their Queen.
Yes and so why would they argue if Thranduil wanted to accept Arwen as his queen? Though again this is moot, because Arwen IS the Queen of Elves. Arguing about how this happened and why is another thing, but it is a fact. Arwen was the Queen of Elves. Not a particular area, but of elves.
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Did Sauron now magically fly over the entire Western part of ME to get to Lindon? It was not directly attacked in any way at the end of the TA.
No it was not attacked, but we are told that it has enough power to withstand him for a while. So if Sauron had reached Lindon then they would be able to hold out. Since they did not have an powers as great as Glorfindel, Elrond or Galadriel there or a great elven ring, it says a lot about the numbers they must have had.
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Well, actually, in this case I would say that Glaurung is both greatest in terms of deeds and innate power, and Ancalagon mostly in terms of physical strength.
You could say that, but you would be going against the text. Silmaril enraged Carcharoth is mightier than Glaurung and the mightiest thing that Morgoth let loose until Ancalagon. We have no idea of how mighty Ancalagon's spirit, but overall he was the most powerul thing.
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Sure, and Elrond wasn't even born when Galadriel "passed into the East". Your point?
The point is he was involved in deeds she had no part. He spoke and learned from people she would never speak to again? How could she possibly no more about Gondolin or the Edain than Elrond? Or even the sons of Feanor, who fostered him?
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Foresight is not the same as knowledge of the future. Foresight more of a foreboding (but could also be in a positive sense), and knowledge is for sure. Galadriel had both the foresight and the knowledge.
This is true, but the abilities are certainly linked and even more so when it comes to elves. Knowledge of the future was Elrond's specialty due to his divine blood. The Dunedain of the North have this ability too. They are able to see the future. Aragorn sees that Elrond will soon leave ME, Gandalf will die etc. Only Cirdan exceeded Elrond, because of a special gift he received by sacrificing his desires, honour and happiness for th Valar.

When talking about Cirdan, who had this gift to see the future further than Elrond this is said.

'He (Cirdan) is said to have seen further and deeper into the future than anyone else in Middle Earth- Later Writings, The Peoples of Middle Earth

From that moment Cirdan received a foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other elves in Middle Earth-Later Writings, the People of Middle Earth

So as we can see seeing the future and foresight are linked and Elrond once again is singled out above the others.
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You completely disregard Galadriel's talents. No one is saying that Elrond and Cirdan don't have it, just that having it doesn't outmaster Galadriel - who happens to have it too.
No I look at the text and try to examine what it says without bias. Cirdan's foresight of the future was unmatched by all in Middle Earth and the close was Elrond. Elrond himself had greater foresight than others since he was a descendant of Melian.
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Not for long. Every half-elf has to make a choice. Mortal or Elf. You cannot live as a peredhil forever.
And? His daughter is named one of the Eldar.
Seeing as he's his uncle a bagillion times removed I wouldn't doubt it. Aragorn was not 100% man either, though he was enough Man to be mortal and not half-elf.
Plus, if you take this as an argument that Elrond is never incuded in the Eldar, you are arguing that either Aragorn is half-elven or that Elrond is a Man, and that is not true.
Again if you want to discuss this in detail I will provde several quotes showing why Elrond was not counted one of the Eldar. I will provide the essay where Tolkien retracts what he says and speaks of only 2 marriages between men and the Eldar.

Aragorn was not completely a man and this is solely why he can perform Elvish magic. It is why he can see into the future and his ancestors could make blades with spells. Why else do you think Aragorn takes the sons of Elrond with him to heal? Why does he say that Elrond is the oldest of his race.

When Tolkien writes of the Eldar, he leaves Elrond seperate.
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Usurping whose power? The power of someone who was not yet appointed to his position? Being head of the Istari does not automatically make you head of all the councils and whatnot.
Saruman was the leader of the Istari. For good or for ill he was Saruman the White. For Gandalf to take over leadership even of the White Council without any reason would be usurping power that did not belong to him. You will notice it is a theme of Tolkien that trying to gain more power than is yours naturally is evil and usually backfires. While those that are humble often end up gaining more.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:18 PM   #127
cellurdur
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Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
Ok, there are a lot of arguments here that I want to sift through...it's rather difficult when not all quotes get properly cited. I'm going to jump around between different posts, so bare with me...

First, to get it quickly resolved, elben is correct that Galadriel saw Gandalf's return and sent Gwaihir to get him:
Now as far as Galadriel reading minds. If I missed the quote cellurdur, I apologize and forgive me for asking again, but I still haven't a clue where you got it from. Not that I doubt you, because I can definitely tell you know your stuff, but it would be immensely helpful to actually get the proper references instead of digging to find the quotes you bold in your posts.

From what I've been able to glean (and this might change, depending on if I can find the part cellurdur is referring to about no being has the ability to read another's mind)...Galadriel could perceive thoughts and minds. It may not be a direct invasion of the mind, but it is still a powerful ability Galadriel possesses. That I don't think can be denied. I mean read The Mirror of Galadriel, where each of the Fellowship felt they were being examined, tested, and felt awkwardly "naked" in front of Galadriel. Add on top of it, the Halbarad arrives with the Dunedain to Aragorn's aid, because Galadriel saw that's what Aragorn desired and thus sent out word:

It's clear to be a power that Galadriel possesses and is quite the master at it. For it was also Galadriel who wanted Gandalf to head the White Council, and not Saruman.
Yes and Tolkien actually does talk about this.

The quote I provided was from Page 398, Myths transformed Morgoth's Ring.

I will provide the full quote, but will have to type it up.

No one not even one of the Valar, can read mind of other equal beings: that is one cannot 'see' them or comprehend them fully and directly by simple inspection. One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendecies of the minds and thought, and from particular knowledge of individuals, and special circumstances. But this is no more reading and inspection of another mind than a deduction of a closed room, or events taken place out of sight.

He does go on to say that greater minds could force lesser minds to reveal certain parts of their thoughts, but this was a great evil act and would soon corrupt the user and none of the 'good' characters used it. Galadriel had an exceptional and the greatest skill for the first aspect.

Here are the quotes from Page 338 Shibboleth of Feanor, the People of Middle Earth.

From her (Galadriel) earliest years she had a marvelous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding and she withheld her good will from none save only Feanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own.

He continues about how pride stopped her tuning back and she was still too proud to return. He goes on about how only when the One Ring came into her possession did she finally have the means to gain what she wanted in her youth.

It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion over Middle Earth of which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test she departed from Middle Earth forever.

What she observed from the Fellowship could easily be guessed. Sam dreamt of going home and having a nice garden, becoming the master of Bag End instead of Frodo, Boromir wanted to take the ring and become the king of Gondor, Aragorn merely wanted the Dunedain to come and help him.




There is also, quite clearly, a power that exists in Lothlorien, that comes from Galadriel, and can only be overthrown by Sauron:
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The same might be said for Elrond in Rivendell, but Gandalf's statement that Rivendell would be the last to fall is rather moot. As G55 said, there's the geographic reason that it would be the last conquered. There is no way around it, Galadriel's power in Lorien could not be overcome, unless Sauron came there himself.

I had more specifically about Aragorn's kingdom, but my time is pressing, so I'll have to get to that later.

Cheers. Excellent discussion, if I may say.
Lothlorien still has a much greater population and army than Rivendell. That apart people ignore how Sauron DID actually come to Rivendell and was still unable to conquer it. This was Sauron with the One Ring and Elrond without Vilya.

That apart the quote does not take into account Sauron unnaturally empowering one of his servants. The Witch King at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was not the same power as the Witch King as usual. He was so greatly enhanced by Sauron directly, that Gandalf the White was unsure about the winner of the outcome. The Witch King at that battle was particularly terrible.

Last edited by cellurdur; 12-15-2012 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:22 PM   #128
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We know this, because Tolkien called Feanor the mightiest of the Noldor. Galadriel on the other hand is never called the mightiest of the Noldor.
Thatīs right she is never called the mightiest of the Noldor, but it is strongly implied. In what else should she be his equal then? Proabaly Tolkien just donīt got arond saying she was with Feanor the mightiest or thought that the "greatest" term says it all.

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He spoke and learned from people she would never speak to again? How could she possibly no more about Gondolin or the Edain than Elrond? Or even the sons of Feanor, who fostered him?
"How could she possibly no more about Gondolin" maybe becasue she visited?!!? There is no prove and even if she didnīt visit, King of Gondolin was her cousin, so one could assume that she knew alot abot it.

Galadriel spoke to people Elrond never spoke to, the Valar and that surely leaves a deeper mark than Elrond talking with some men.

Iīm pretty sure she knew the sons of Feanor very well, growing up with them.

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Knowledge of the future was Elrond's specialty due to his divine blood.
Quote please.

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So as we can see seeing the future and foresight are linked and Elrond once again is singled out above the others.
Where is it stated?

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You completely disregard Galadriel's talents.
Oh I so much agree.

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Cirdan's foresight of the future was unmatched by all in Middle Earth and the close was Elrond. Elrond himself had greater foresight than others since he was a descendant of Melian.
I agree with Cirdan but I really donīt know what makes you think that Elrond has this power. Where is it stated or implied? Only being a decendant of Melian does not make you stronger than other elves (if we leave Luthien out). Elwing and Dior obviosly were not more mighty, same goes with Arwen and the twins.

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I will provde several quotes showing why Elrond was not counted one of the Eldar
I can show you a quote that he was counted as one of the Eldar!

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When Tolkien was finishing his Lord of the Rings in the early 1950s he fell back again on his manuscript of the Quenta Silmarillion of the 1930s. In the last version of this text “Elrond Halfelven” finally decides – “as was grantet to him” – (HoMe V, p. 332) to be counted among the Eldar while Elros decides to be counted among men.
It was so hard to find it.

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I will provide the essay where Tolkien retracts what he says and speaks of only 2 marriages between men and the Eldar.
Wow, that would be really new to me.

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When Tolkien writes of the Eldar, he leaves Elrond seperate.
Well, I never saw him writing: The elves of the third age and Elrond half-elven. Itīs just always the elves or Eldar.

One example:
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But the promise made to the eldar (the high elves – not to other varieties, they had log before made their irrevocable choice, preferring ME to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime dark lord had still to be fullifield: that they should always be able to leave M E, if they wished and pass over sea to the true west, by the straight road and so come to eressea.
I would gues that Elrond could go too, but he didnīt wrote "The promise made to the Eldar and the Peredhil..." so Tolkien is talking in generel in these aspeks and even if he really wants to avoid calling him an elf, in this matter it is correct, cause this Peredhil belongs to the elves.

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What she observed from the Fellowship could easily be guessed. Sam dreamt of going home and having a nice garden, becoming the master of Bag End instead of Frodo, Boromir wanted to take the ring and become the king of Gondor, Aragorn merely wanted the Dunedain to come and help him.
"To me it seemed exceedingly strange," said Boromir. "Maybe it was only a test, and she thought to read our thoughts for her own good purpose;" Boromir

Boromir said that she was reading his mind and he shold now it.

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No one not even one of the Valar, can read mind of other equal beings: that is one cannot 'see' them or comprehend them fully and directly by simple inspection. One can deduce much of their thought, from general comparisons leading to conclusions concerning the nature and tendecies of the minds and thought, and from particular knowledge of individuals, and special circumstances. But this is no more reading and inspection of another mind than a deduction of a closed room, or events taken place out of sight.
It seems Tolkiens proved himself otherwise or he just changed his mind on this matter.

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And with that word she held them with her eyes, and in silence looked searchingly at each of them in turn. None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her glance. Sam quickly blushed and hung his head.

At length the Lady Galadriel released them from her eyes, and she smiled. 'Do not let your hearts be troubled,' she said. 'Tonight you shall sleep in peace.' Then they sighed and felt suddenly weary, as those who have been questioned long and deeply, though no words had been spoken openly.
'If you want to know, I felt as if I hadn't got nothing on, and I didn't like it. She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with-with a bit of garden of my own.'
There was more going on than just guessing.

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The Witch King at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was not the same power as the Witch King as usual. He was so greatly enhanced by Sauron directly, that Gandalf the White was unsure about the winner of the outcome. The Witch King at that battle was particularly terrible.
But still he wold not be able to conquer Lothlorien, for only Sauron in person would have the needed power to do so.

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He does go on to say that greater minds could force lesser minds to reveal certain parts of their thoughts, but this was a great evil act and would soon corrupt the user and none of the 'good' characters used it.
Iīm not saying that Galadriel did that, cause Sauron in clearly not a lesser mind, but it would be an explanation if one really sticks to the these that Galadriel read Saurons mind (which I do, cause she said so). But would it still be considered evil if the person has a good purpose? I donīt think so, if the outcome is good, it cold be seen as an exceptional case.

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certain parts of their thoughts
"Certain parts of their thoughts" would explain why she only knew ... "or all of his mind that concerns the Elves

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I generally agree with what you're saying, but not with this. I think she only "sent" Gwaihir because he allowed her to send him. It's not an authority, it's Gwaihir's helpfulness.
Yes, I did not express myself well, she has no authority. I think itīs just nice to see that Gwaihir "is working together with her in that case" regardless her past and him being an eagle of Manwe.

Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-15-2012 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 12-15-2012, 04:05 PM   #129
cellurdur
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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
Thatīs right she is never called the mightiest of the Noldor, but it is strongly implied. In what else should she be his equal then? Proabaly Tolkien just donīt got arond saying she was with Feanor the mightiest or thought that the "greatest" term says it all.
No it is not strongly implied. She is said to be mighty among the Noldor, but not one of the mightiest.
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"How could she possibly no more about Gondolin" maybe becasue she visited?!!? There is no prove and even if she didt visit, King of Gondolin was her cousin, so one cold assme that she knew alot abot it.
Gondolin was a secret city, that no one was allowed to enter. Galadriel did not visit the place.
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Galadriel spoke to people Elrond never spoke to, the Valar and that surely leaves a deeper mark than Elrond talking with some men.
Yes it has a mark, but we are talking about all lore. The Noldor actually were not as close the Valar as were the Vanyar. They tended to stay in Tirion.
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Iīm pretty sure she knew the sons of Feanor very well, growing up with them.
She did not associate with them. Elrond was raised by them especially and Galadriel's time with them was before there deeds in ME.
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Quote please.
Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your children to part either with you or with Middle-earth."

In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar; but Elros his brother chose to abide with Men. And from these brethren alone has come among Men the blood of the Firstborn and a strain of the spirits divine that were before Arda; for they were the sons of Elwing, Dior's daughter, Luthien's son, child of Thingol and Melian; and Earendil their father was the son of Idril Celebrindal, Turgon's daughter of Gondolin" -War of Wrath, Silmarillion

Aragorn's 'healing' might be considered as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while Aragorn is not a pure 'Man', but a long remove on of the 'children of Luthien'-letter 155

But suddenly some power, descended from of old from divine race, possessed Lúthien, and casting back her foul raiment she stood forth, small before the might of Carcharoth, but radiant and terrible. Lifting up her hand she commanded him to sleep, saying: 'O woe-begotten spirit, fall now into dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life.' And Carcharoth was felled, as though lightning had smitten him.-Silmarillion

Pengolodh here elaborates (though it is not necessary for his argument) this matter of "foresight". No mind, he asserts, knows what is not in it. All that it has experienced is in it, though in the case of the Incarnate, dependent upon the instruments of the hröa, some things may be "forgotten", not immediately available for recollection. But no part of the "future" is there, for the mind cannot see it or have seen it: that is, a mind placed in time. Such a mind can learn of the future only from another mind which has seen it. But that means only from Eru ultimately, or mediately from some mind that has seen in Eru some part of His purpose (such as the Ainur who are now the Valar in Eä). An Incarnate can thus only know anything of the future, by instruction derived from the Valar, or by a revelation coming direct from Eru. But any mind, whether of the Valar or of the Incarnate, may deduce by reason what will or may come to pass. This is not foresight, not though it may be clearer in terms and indeed even more accurate than glimpses of foresight. Not even if it is formed into visions seen in dream, which is a means whereby "foresight" also is frequently presented to the mind.
Minds that have great knowledge of the past, the present, and the nature of Eä may predict with great accuracy, and the nearer the future the clearer (saving always the freedom of Eru). Much therefore of what is called "foresight" in careless speech is only the deduction of the wise; and if it be received, as warning or instruction, from the Valar, it may be only deduction of the wiser, though it may sometimes be "foresight" at second hand
-Vinyar Tengwar

True foresight where one really sees the future can only come from the Ainur. Usually it is from divine revelation from the Valar. The foresight in just predicting the future; all of the Wise have.
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Where is it stated?
I thought it was obvious from the quote that Cirdan's foresight exceeded EVEN Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel.. Elrond once again is especially singled out ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel.
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I agree with Cirdan but I really donīt know what makes you think that Elrond has this power. Where is it stated or implied? Only being a decendant of Melian does not make you stronger than other elves (if we leave Luthien ot). Elwing and Dior obviosly were not more mighty, same goes with Arwen and the twins.
Dior defeated one of the strongest sons of Feanor and we know litte else of his deeds. Elwing learns to talk to birds and can fly. Have you seen any elf fly?

As for Cirdan, I have already provided the quote, that his knowledge exceeding Elrond in particular was noted.
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I can show yo a qote that he was connted as one of the Eldar!
It was so hard to find it.
No that quote just shows he would have eternal life, in the same way Elros would be mortal.
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Wow, that would be really new to me.
Good good. It is always nice to learn something new.

I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event : THERE ARE ONLY 2 CASES only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.1 But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World – and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all. -Letter 153

The part in capital is my own.
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Well, I never saw him writing: The elves of the third age and Elrond half-elven. Itīs just always the elves or Eldar.

One example:

I would gues that Elrond could go too, but he didnīt wrote "The promise made to the Eldar and the Peredhil..." so Tolkien is talking in generel in these aspeks and even if he really wants to avoid calling him an elf, in this matter it is correct, cause this Peredhil belongs to the elves.
No he is speaking about the promise made to the Elves. The promise was not the one given to the Half-Elven. Perhaps you should read full the entire quote, before you provide it, because it might actually come back to disproof what you are tempting to proof.

The full quote actually shows that Elrond and the Half-elven are once again separated from the Eldar.

"But the promise made to the Eldar (the High Elves- not to other varieties, they had long before made their irrevocable choice, preferring Middle-earth to paradise) for their sufferings in the struggle with the prime Dark Lord had still to be fulfilled: that they should always be able to leave Middle-earth, if they wished, and pass over Sea to the True West, by the Straight Road, and so come to Eressea - but so pass out of time and history, never to return. The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all. Hence the grief at the parting of Elrond and Arwen."-letter 154

Quite clear he mentions the Eldar and then address Elrond and Arwen separately showing he does not include them with the elves.
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"To me it seemed exceedingly strange," said Boromir. "Maybe it was only a test, and she thought to read our thoughts for her own good purpose;" Boromir

Boromir said that she was reading his mind and he shold now it.
It seems Tolkiens proved himself otherwise or he just changed his mind on this matter.
Boromir was from Gondor and wrong about many things. He had let superstition cloud his judgement. Tolkien's words on reading the mind come after LOTR was published.

Tolkien was influenced by Christianity in his work and one key part of Christianity is that only God can read a person's mind. This is why he went to great pains to clarify the situation after LOTR.
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:29 AM   #130
elbenprincess
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I thought it was obvious from the quote that Cirdan's foresight exceeded EVEN Elrond, Celeborn and Galadriel.. Elrond once again is especially singled out ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel.
I never disagreed about Cirdan, but there is no prove Elrond has the greatest foresight after Cirdan just becase of that:

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Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him
Again, you have not proven that Elrond is the one with the greater foresight and knowlege in lore than Galadriel, who already was a match for the loremasters in Valinor. It just says that the foresight of his kindred came to him, besides the Maiar, his kindred is also Noldor, Sindar and men.
You just have to look on their actions and you see who is inhernently more powerful.

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Gondolin was a secret city, that no one was allowed to enter. Galadriel did not visit the place.
Even if she didnīt visit or take part in some of the events, she can see everything that she wants with her mirror, how Beren meat Luthien, how Sauron lost his ring and Gondolin, how it was bilt and destroyed.

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Yes it has a mark, but we are talking about all lore. The Noldor actually were not as close the Valar as were the Vanyar. They tended to stay in Tirion.
The Noldor in generel were pupil of Aule and furthermore Galadriel is said that she was pupil of Yavanna.

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Such a mind can learn of the future only from another mind which has seen it. But that means only from Eru ultimately, or mediately from some mind that has seen in Eru some part of His purpose
Still there must be an explanation on why Galadriel is able to see the future via her mirror, something Elrond is not able to do.

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THERE ARE ONLY 2 CASES only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil
That tells us that Arwen and Aragons union was not one of the Eldar and Edain? Arwen is a decendant of Earendil and maybe he just forgot one union, dunno makes no sense for me. Arwen is as much as an elf as Luthien, even more. I donīt know yet what he tries to tell us with the biological differneces, but why should he suddenly come to the conclusion that the Union between Arwen and Aragon was not one of the Eldar and Edain? Because Arwen was one of the Eldar!

Eldar:
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At first, the name was applied to all Elves, but after the summons of the Valar, it came to be used only of the peoples who followed the summons and began the Great Journey.
The term "Eldar" is applied for those who have seen the two trees, or at least began he journey. Furthermore it seems that the elves inherented it from their ancestors. Thingol, saw the two trees and was therefore an Eldar, Luthien did not see the two tress but was also accounted Eldar, so she inherented that from her father, so Arwen would inherent being one of the Eldar not only from Thingol, but also from Galadriel.

If he is explaning to us that it is biological not possible because they are not so similar as we thought always, then Arwen and Aragon match more then the other unions (because Arwen has more mortal blood than Idril or Luthien).

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Elrond once again is especially singled out ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel.
Where because of that?:
Quote:
Quote:
Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him
His kindred besides the Maiar are the Noldor and Sindar too, it doesnīt say that he has greater foresight than Galadriel.

Where is Elrond singled ot ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel? Maybe I have overseens omething, but I read no quote that indicates that.

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Elwing learns to talk to birds and can fly. Have you seen any elf fly?
Yes, but only because of Ulmos help, I gess he could make very elf fly if he wants.

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Perhaps you should read full the entire quote, before you provide it, because it might actually come back to disproof what you are tempting to proof.
You have a point, I donīt have the letter for me and just saw the passage. But I think that could be a coincedence, he just points out that before leaving for Aman they have to make their choice. Arwen wasnīt even born at that time after the War of Wrath so was Elrond. Iīm sure there are simililar passages, where Tolkien doesnīt make a difference.

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No that quote just shows he would have eternal life, in the same way Elros would be mortal.
It doesnīt show that he would have eternal life (which he doesnīt have at all, they just have long lifespans) it shows that he Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar

I have found this quote:

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'The passing 'oversea' to Eressea (an isle within sight of Aman) was permitted to, and indeed urged upon, all Elves remaining in Middle-earth after the downfall of Morgoth in Angband.' Morgoth's Ring
I again donīt have the compleate letter but Elrond was urged too, like Gil Galad and Celimbrimbur but they denied, and in that what I see at this point Elrond is not excluded. Like I said, the first quote was coincidence.

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Boromir was from Gondor and wrong about many things. He had let superstition cloud his judgement. Tolkien's words on reading the mind come after LOTR was published.

sure Boromir was wrong on many things, but Tolkien says through Boromir that she read his thoughts. Even it itīs illegal, itīs possible.

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Tolkien was influenced by Christianity in his work and one key part of Christianity is that only God can read a person's mind. This is why he went to great pains to clarify the situation after LOTR.
Bt still Tolkiens said
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No one not even one of the Valar, can read mind of other equal beings
The Valar are not able to read the thoghts of other Valar, but of lesser being, like Elves or Men.

You just have to read the chapter, there is no question if she read their thoughts or not.

Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-16-2012 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:22 AM   #131
cellurdur
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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
I never disagreed about Cirdan, but there is no prove Elrond has the greatest foresight after Cirdan just becase of that:
The quote shows that Elrond is especially held in high regard in foresight. He alone is singled out as the most surprising that Cirdan had greater foresight.

If that is not enough here is another one from Gandalf implying that Elrond has the greatest foresight.

“He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.” -LOTR

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Again, you have not proven that Elrond is the one with the greater foresight and knowlege in lore than Galadriel, who already was a match for the loremasters in Valinor. It just says that the foresight of his kindred came to him, besides the Maiar, his kindred is also Noldor, Sindar and men.
You just have to look on their actions and you see who is inhernently more powerful.
The quote was about Aragorn and his kin were the Children of Luthien, of whom Elrond was the oldest, the greatest and the most powerful.

As for lore, this is what Tolkien had to say.

Elrond symbolises throughout the ancient wisdom, and his House represents Lore – the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection.-Letter 131
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Even if she didnīt visit or take part in some of the events, she can see everything that she wants with her mirror, how Beren meat Luthien, how Sauron lost his ring and Gondolin, how it was bilt and destroyed.
No she cannot.
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The Noldor in generel were pupil of Aule and furthermore Galadriel is said that she was pupil of Yavanna.
Elrond was instructed by Eonwe, but that is besides the point. Elrond was renown for being the greatest lore master.
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Still there must be an explanation on why Galadriel is able to see the future via her mirror, something Elrond is not able to do.
Elrond could see more of the future than Galadriel and so could Cirdan. The mirror is not something you could use at will to see whatever you wanted. Nobody knew what they would see and the visions did not always come true.
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That tells us that Arwen and Aragons union was not one of the Eldar and Edain? Arwen is a decendant of Earendil and maybe he just forgot one union, dunno makes no sense for me. Arwen is as much as an elf as Luthien, even more. I donīt know yet what he tries to tell us with the biological differneces, but why should he suddenly come to the conclusion that the Union between Arwen and Aragon was not one of the Eldar and Edain? Because Arwen was one of the Eldar!

Eldar:


The term "Eldar" is applied for those who have seen the two trees, or at least began he journey. Furthermore it seems that the elves inherented it from their ancestors. Thingol, saw the two trees and was therefore an Eldar, Luthien did not see the two tress but was also accounted Eldar, so she inherented that from her father, so Arwen would inherent being one of the Eldar not only from Thingol, but also from Galadriel.

If he is explaning to us that it is biological not possible because they are not so similar as we thought always, then Arwen and Aragon match more then the other unions (because Arwen has more mortal blood than Idril or Luthien).
In the full quote he goes on to mention Aragorn and Arwen. In fact he repeats there being only two marriages in another letter.

There are thus two marriages of mortal and elf – both later coalescing in the kindred of Earendil, represented by Elrond
the Half-elven who appears in all the stories, even The Hobbit.
-letter 131

As for biology he is actually basically saying he does not care if Elves and me should not be the same, because in his story they are.
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Where because of that?: His kindred besides the Maiar are the Noldor and Sindar too, it doesnīt say that he has greater foresight than Galadriel.
The kin was the Children of Luthien, the Blessed foremother as Tolkien calls her.
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Where is Elrond singled ot ahead of Celeborn and Galadriel? Maybe I have overseens omething, but I read no quote that indicates that.
When it says EVEN ELROND in the quote I have previously provided.
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Yes, but only because of Ulmos help, I gess he could make very elf fly if he wants.
No that was the first time, but after that she learned the tongue of birds and the ability to fly, which is a great display of her innate power.
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You have a point, I donīt have the letter for me and just saw the passage. But I think that could be a coincedence, he just points out that before leaving for Aman they have to make their choice. Arwen wasnīt even born at that time after the War of Wrath so was Elrond. Iīm sure there are simililar passages, where Tolkien doesnīt make a difference.
No there really are not. He always likes to differentiate. For instance Earendil is called the greatest of the Half-elven.

Or when he receives a letter claiming that Arwen was an elf he quickly dismisses this.

Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights. Galadriel
('Glittering garland') is the chief elvish woman mentioned in The Lord of the Rings; her daughter
was Celebrían ('Silver queen'). There was also Nimrodel.
-letter 345
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It doesnīt show that he would have eternal life (which he doesnīt have at all, they just have long lifespans) it shows that he Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be numbered among the Eldar

I have found this quote:
I again donīt have the compleate letter but Elrond was urged too, like Gil Galad and Celimbrimbur but they denied, and in that what I see at this point Elrond is not excluded. Like I said, the first quote was coincidence.
Where does it even remotely suggest Elrond was under the ban or urged to comeback? In fact the story implies the opposite. Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth. Elrond to ensure that men could come into their own in the fourth age. Why else would the Valar send Glorfindel to personally aid him if he was still defying their orders?
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sure Boromir was wrong on many things, but Tolkien says through Boromir that she read his thoughts. Even it itīs illegal, itīs possible.
Bt still Tolkiens said The Valar are not able to read the thoghts of other Valar, but of lesser being, like Elves or Men.

You just have to read the chapter, there is no question if she read their thoughts or not.
As I said it is not possible. Read through the book and there are several circumstances of the same thing being said about Gandalf, Aragorn and even Denethor.

That apart by equal beings, he meant all rational creatures created by Eru from Hobbits to dwarves all the way up to the Valar. I can provide the quote if you want extra proof.

Elrond in particularly was a great power that alone without any ring, was able to create and enchantment around Rivendell (along with his army) that not even Sauron with the one ring could break.

The last Elf-Kingdom of Gilgalad is maintained precariously on the extreme westshores,
where are the havens of the Ships. Elrond the Half-elven, son of Earendil, maintains a kind
of enchanted sanctuary at Imladris (in English Rivendell) on the extreme eastern margin of the
western lands.
-Letter 131

Last edited by cellurdur; 12-16-2012 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:29 AM   #132
radagastly
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Originally posted by cellurdur:
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Even if she didnīt visit or take part in some of the events, she can see everything that she wants with her mirror, how Beren meat Luthien, how Sauron lost his ring and Gondolin, how it was bilt and destroyed.
No she cannot.
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Still there must be an explanation on why Galadriel is able to see the future via her mirror, something Elrond is not able to do.
Elrond could see more of the future than Galadriel and so could Cirdan. The mirror is not something you could use at will to see whatever you wanted. Nobody knew what they would see and the visions did not always come true.
Actually, the Mirror was only completely random when she allowed it to be.
From The Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel:
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"Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal," she answered, "and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wise cannot always tell."
She clearly had enough control over the Mirror to see what she wished to see, mixed in with other images. The problem was in sorting them out, making sense of them once they were seen. And of course, images of the future might or might not come true.
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"Remember that the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds."
__________________
But all the while I sit and think of times there were before,
I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:32 PM   #133
elbenprincess
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Quote:
The quote shows that Elrond is especially held in high regard in foresight. He alone is singled out as the most surprising that Cirdan had greater foresight.

“He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.” -LOTR
Only because he said "not even Elrond" means that Galadriel is inferior to him?!?! There could be thousand reasons. I donīt know the context, but maybe they were in Rivendel at this point when gandalf said it and he said it to be poilte and respectful to the lord of the house. The most obvious reason could be, that they dot know Galadriel yet. If he wold say "not even Galadriel" they wold have no idea who he is referring to. Unless the conversation takes place after they went through Lorien, then my argument would be moot.
That tiny bit is hardly the prove of him being superior.

You can not provide any quote which says explicitly that he has the greatest foresight save Cirdan or that he is called by Tolkien "the greatest loremaster"

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Elrond symbolises throughout the ancient wisdom, and his House represents Lore – the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection.-Letter 131
Only because he symbolises ancient wisdom and his hose represents Lore, doesnīt mean that he is the wisest person in ME, that would belong to Cirdan, or even Celeborn, if we can believe Galadriel or that he is the greatest loremaster, cause he is never called "the greatest loremaster of ME" Rivendell just happens to contain the most important artefacts of the past, therefore his house represents lore.
Galadriel would to have acces to that lore, being often in Rivendell and even in Valinor she was eager to learn everything what the Valar cold teach her, wanted to learn even more, one reason she left Aman and then went on lerning with Melian. I dobt her thrist for knowlege vanished.

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Where does it even remotely suggest Elrond was under the ban or urged to comeback? In fact the story implies the opposite. Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth. Elrond to ensure that men could come into their own in the fourth age. Why else would the Valar send Glorfindel to personally aid him if he was still defying their orders?
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'The passing 'oversea' to Eressea (an isle within sight of Aman) was permitted to, and indeed urged upon, all Elves remaining in Middle-earth after the downfall of Morgoth in Angband.' Morgoth's Ring
I never said that he was baned, I just thought that he was counciled to go to Aman, but I couldnīt find it, so it is probably not canon.
But in this quote he doesnīt differ, but still Elrond was among the elves who were welcome to go west.

"Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth."

Sure, Elrond had his purpose and the Valar were happy to have him in ME, but the same could be said of Galadriel.
IMHO you make Elrond too special.
Many elves had their part in overthrowing Sauron. Without Galadriels aid the quest would have failed, the Valar were aware of that and for all her efforts she was pardoned and honoured by the Valar.

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Elrond the Half-elven, son of Earendil, maintains a kind
of enchanted
sanctuary at Imladris
It says a kind of enchanted sanctary, that gives me the impression, that the "enchanted term" rather refers to Rivendell, but more to the atmosphere that was special, in contrast to the unconquerable borders like it is said when speaking about Galadriels realm.
I donīt get the feeling that it refers to the same power that surrounded and safed Lorien.

Tolkien is here again very ambiguous, he doesnīt go further into detail, itīs not as convincing than the quote regarding Galadriel and Lorien who would only fall if Sauron comes there in person.
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Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur; but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.
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No that was the first time, but after that she learned the tongue of birds and the ability to fly, which is a great display of her innate power.
Yes, later on Elwing was still able to fly but only due to the spell Ulmo put over her, that would last forever, or at least as long as he intends.
I donīt think that she was transformed one time and by sheer good fortune was later able to do it all alone. IMHO it was Ulmos gift to her.
Therefore it doesnīt show her innate power, it would have been if she was doing it without Ulmo at all, like Luthien, when she was shapeshifting. But Ulmo could probably make it for every elf possible to turn into a dowe and then back to elf. I donīt think it ever happened again, so that makes her special, the only elf who can fly.

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That apart by equal beings, he meant all rational creatures created by Eru from Hobbits to dwarves all the way up to the Valar. I can provide the quote if you want extra proof.
That would be nice.

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Even if she didnīt visit or take part in some of the events, she can see everything that she wants with her mirror, how Beren meat Luthien, how Sauron lost his ring and Gondolin, how it was bilt and destroyed.
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No she cannot.
Yes she can.

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'Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,' she answered, 'and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?'
So she has absolutly control over her mirror, she can see in the mirror the past crystal clear, (that is a better tool to lore than everything that is archieved in Rivendel) present anyway, and the future, but there she knows that she has to be careful if she wantīs to act on that, cause that again could change the future, cause IMHO the future is variable.
So she is able to see the future, while Elrond it "just" stated to have forsight but never is he, so that no question is left, stated as second to Cirdan regarding forsight.

If you ask for the greatest of the Noldor, then you have quotes which are definite, there is no discussion (actually there is, but that is not the point, Tolkien said so and thatīs all what matters).
Regarding Elrond coupled with forsight and greatness in lore, those definite quotes are not existent. The quotes you provided are arguable, cause not one actually states that "Elrond is second to Cirdan in foresight and the greatest loremaster in ME".

I have no problem to be put right, if I missed something.

Last edited by elbenprincess; 12-16-2012 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:08 PM   #134
cellurdur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
Only because he said "not even Elrond" means that Galadriel is inferior to him?!?! There could be thousand reasons. I donīt know the context, but maybe they were in Rivendel at this point when gandalf said it and he said it to be poilte and respectful to the lord of the house. The most obvious reason could be, that they dot know Galadriel yet. If he wold say "not even Galadriel" they wold have no idea who he is referring to. Unless the conversation takes place after they went through Lorien, then my argument would be moot.
That tiny bit is hardly the prove of him being superior.
Gandalf has no problem referring to people Frodo has not heard of like Saruman. Anyway besides that there is the other quote again specifically saying EVEN ELROND. Twice when it comes to foresight Elrond is placed before Galadriel.
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You can not provide any quote which says explicitly that he has the greatest foresight save Cirdan or that he is called by Tolkien "the greatest loremaster"
I have already provided you the quote showing he was the greatest lore master. Here it is again. I feel like I am just repeating myself.

This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the elves of a far norther dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters." -LOTR
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Only because he symbolises ancient wisdom and his hose represents Lore, doesnīt mean that he is the wisest person in ME, that would belong to Cirdan, or even Celeborn, if we can believe Galadriel or that he is the greatest loremaster, cause he is never called "the greatest loremaster of ME" Rivendell just happens to contain the most important artefacts of the past, therefore his house represents lore.
Galadriel would to have acces to that lore, being often in Rivendell and even in Valinor she was eager to learn everything what the Valar cold teach her, wanted to learn even more, one reason she left Aman and then went on lerning with Melian. I dobt her thrist for knowlege vanished.
I have already shown you a quote showing he is the greatest lore master. Provided many other quotes saying he alone remembered the ancient stories etc.
[QUOTE]
I never said that he was baned, I just thought that he was counciled to go to Aman, but I couldnīt find it, so it is probably not canon.
But in this quote he doesnīt differ, but still Elrond was among the elves who were welcome to go west.[?QUOTE]
Elrond was one of the Half-elven. You seem to miss this fact. How do you think his children were allowed to stay in Middle Earth until he left if the Valar did not wish for him to remain?
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"Elrond much like Cirdan seemed to have had a special mission to stay in Middle Earth."

Sure, Elrond had his purpose and the Valar were happy to have him in ME, but the same could be said of Galadriel.
IMHO you make Elrond too special.
Many elves had their part in overthrowing Sauron. Without Galadriels aid the quest would have failed, the Valar were aware of that and for all her efforts she was pardoned and honoured by the Valar.
Yes many people helped in the overthrowing of Sauron including Galadriel and this was why her ban was overturned. The situation is different from Elrond, who seems to have remained to help assure in the age of Men.
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It says a kind of enchanted sanctary, that gives me the impression, that the "enchanted term" rather refers to Rivendell, but more to the atmosphere that was special, in contrast to the unconquerable borders like it is said when speaking about Galadriels realm.
I donīt get the feeling that it refers to the same power that surrounded and safed Lorien.

Tolkien is here again very ambiguous, he doesnīt go further into detail, itīs not as convincing than the quote regarding Galadriel and Lorien who would only fall if Sauron comes there in person.
Do you have any idea what happened in the 2nd age? Sauron came in person to Rivendell and could not overthrow it. In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.

Rivendell is special, because Elrond dwells there. You simply don't want to see all the evidence indicating Elrond was the greater power.
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Yes, later on Elwing was still able to fly but only due to the spell Ulmo put over her, that would last forever, or at least as long as he intends.
I donīt think that she was transformed one time and by sheer good fortune was later able to do it all alone. IMHO it was Ulmos gift to her.
Therefore it doesnīt show her innate power, it would have been if she was doing it without Ulmo at all, like Luthien, when she was shapeshifting. But Ulmo could probably make it for every elf possible to turn into a dowe and then back to elf. I donīt think it ever happened again, so that makes her special, the only elf who can fly.
Have you actually read what happened? Ulmo once turned her into a swan, but later in Aman she spoke with the birds.

"And it is said that Elwing learned the tongue of birds, who herself had once worn their shape; and they taught her the craft of flight, and her wings were of white and silver-grey. And at times, when Eärendil returning drew near again to Arda, she would fly to meet him, even as she had flown long ago, when she was rescued from the sea. Then the far-sighted among the Elves that dwelt in the Lonely Isle would see her like a white bird, shining, rose-stained in the sunset, as she soared in joy to greet the coming of Vingilot to haven."
-Silmarillion

Just like with Luthien the power comes from her innate strength.
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That would be nice.
'equal beings'*
*[marginal note] All rational minds/spirits deriving direct from Eru are equal-in order and in status-though not necessarily 'coeval' or of like original power.
-Morgoth's Ring
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Yes she can.
Not in the way you are implying. She could flashes of images with not sound and that is all.
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So she has absolutly control over her mirror, she can see in the mirror the past crystal clear, (that is a better tool to lore than everything that is archieved in Rivendel) present anyway, and the future, but there she knows that she has to be careful if she wantīs to act on that, cause that again could change the future, cause IMHO the future is variable.
So she is able to see the future, while Elrond it "just" stated to have forsight but never is he, so that no question is left, stated as second to Cirdan regarding forsight.

If you ask for the greatest of the Noldor, then you have quotes which are definite, there is no discussion (actually there is, but that is not the point, Tolkien said so and thatīs all what matters).
Regarding Elrond coupled with forsight and greatness in lore, those definite quotes are not existent. The quotes you provided are arguable, cause not one actually states that "Elrond is second to Cirdan in foresight and the greatest loremaster in ME".

I have no problem to be put right, if I missed something.
The quotes are all before you and you can make up your own mind. I have shown that Elrond was not one one of the Noldor or even the Eldar, he was one of the Half-Elven and consistently implied or stated to have the greatest power. No point arguing when all the facts are now bare.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:31 PM   #135
elbenprincess
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During the council in Rivendell Boromir recalls a dream his brother told him where Faramir hears a voice singing to him. Boromir tells the council that “we [Boromir and his brother Faramir] spoke to our father, Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith, wise in the lore of Gondor. This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters” (LotR: 275). Here we can see that Denethor, a Man, was a lore-master or at the very least a master of the lore of Gondor. We also see that Elrond is a lore-master, not only a lore-master but the greatest lore-master in Middle-earth, at least in Boromir’s opinion.
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Boromir was from Gondor and wrong about many things.
You said that, so when he says that Galadriel read his thoughts he is wrong, but when he said that Elrond is the greatest loremaster, then he is right. That is not really consequent.
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:38 PM   #136
cellurdur
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Originally Posted by elbenprincess View Post
You said that, so when he says that Galadriel read his thoughts he is wrong, but when he said that Elrond is the greatest loremaster, then he is right. That is not really consequent.
Once again I gave you part of the relevant quote and not the whole thing. Boromir was a man like the Rohirrm. He was a brilliant fighter, a great general, handsome and charismatic, but not interested in lore and other such details.

Look at the quote again. Boromir repeats it, but it does not come from him. It comes from Denethor. A man, who had often used the Palantir was wise and a throw back to the Numenoreans of old. Not only that, but it is something recorded in ancient Gondor history, not the opinion of Boromir the man.
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:33 PM   #137
elbenprincess
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Even if it is Denethor who said it, it is still only his opinion and itīs not even clear if Denethor knows Galadriel, if his son thinks that Galadriel is an evil witch. That is Denethors opinion, but not Tolkiens. Itīs the same like Galadriel saying that Celeborn is the wisest elf, that is her opinion but not neccessarily Tolkiens.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:52 AM   #138
elbenprincess
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Quote:
Provided many other quotes saying he alone remembered the ancient stories etc.
I canīt remember reading such a quote provided by you and anyway how can he alone remember the anchient stories better or more in detail, than a more ancient person (Galadriel) or do you mean the quote, that his house represents lore? That is hardly convincing.

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The situation is different from Elrond, who seems to have remained to help assure in the age of Men.
Galadriel stayed too becase she wanted see Sauron fall and because Men were important to her. Of course she was banned but even if not, she would not leave ME.

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But eventually Galadriel became aware that Sauron again, as in the ancient days of the captivity of Melkor, had been left behind. Or rather, since Sauron had as yet no single name, and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit, prime servant of Melkor, she perceived that there was an evil controlling purpose abroad in the world, and that it seemed to proceed from a source further to the East, beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains
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In any case, Galadriel was more far-sighted in this than Celeborn; and she perceived from the beginning that Middle-earth could not be saved from "the residue of evil" that Morgoth had left behind him save by a union of all the peoples who were in their way and in their measure opposed to him
So, she had the same reason to stay as Elrond.

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Do you have any idea what happened in the 2nd age? Sauron came in person to Rivendell and could not overthrow it. In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.
Actually I thought I know pretty much what happened in the 2nd age but that Sauron came in person to Rivendell is new to me. I searched the Sil and the Internet but I couldnīt find that it was Sauron himself, I just found that:

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Angered by this setback, Sauron loosed the hordes of Mordor, six hundred years in the building, and overran Eriador, destroying the land of Eregion where the Rings were made. The Elves called on Númenor for aid, though, and the army of Tar-Minastir put Sauron's forces to rout. After this reverse, Sauron sought instead to build power in the eastern countries, and left the Westlands in peace for many centuries.
True, Elrond and his troops were able to drive Saurons host away, but that happened in many other regions of ME also under Gil-galad, the havens for example were safed. I think the defeat of Saurons troops was more a military act and not very much magic (the rings were not made for war anyway). Itīs not like in the third age, where not many elves were left, Elrond would have an army in the second age.

I donīt found anything that indicates that Sauron was in Rivendel.

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Many more refugees joined Elrond's host as Sauron ravaged Eriador during the course of the war. By S.A. 1700, Imladris, despite being besieged, was the only part of Eriador not under Sauron's control. It was liberated after Gil-galad's forces, strengthened by the armament sent by Tar-Minastir, routed Sauron's armies and drove him out of Eriador.
Yes, it says that Rivendel was besieged but not that Sauron was there in person and could not enter.

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In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.
He wanted to destroy Lindon anyway, together with the havens, independent of Rivedell.

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Sauron besieged Imladris, battled Moria and Lothlórien, and pushed further into Gil-galad's realm.
He can hardy be everywhere at the same time, so if it says Saruron besieged Imladris it would be his troops in his name, unless there is a quote which says "Sauron was in person in Rivendel".

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You simply don't want to see all the evidence indicating Elrond was the greater power.
There is no indication that he is the greatest power, unless you accept this "expecially Elrond" in this one letter. But that letter is debatable, many have differnet opinions regarding that. Also again, itīs vague.

Quote:
This only would he say, that Imladris was of old the name among the Elves of a far northern dale, where Elrond the Halfelven dwelt, greatest of lore-masters” (LotR: 275)
-Boromir

It almost logic that Elrond would be considered the greatest loremaster, he is the most well known, while hardly no one knows Galadriel or has a completely wrong image about her.

In this case I canīt take Bormiers/Denethors opinion serious. Had Gandalf said it, then it wold be another matter but that is not the same as the "not even Elrond can fortell!

I have no problem accepting it but all the quotes you provided one can interpret differntly, there is no explicit statement, such as "Elrond was the greatest power besides the Maiar in ME" or something like that.

Elrond can never be superior to the equal of Feanor, (Galadriel) cause Feanor was the mightiest of the children of Eru (save Luthien). The top 3 of Erus children are definite!

Number 2 and 3 are Feanor and Galadriel, number 1 is Luthien.

Quote:
'These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor,* were unfriends for ever.'

*Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.
That I would call a explicit statement. There is no wiggle room.

Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the elves.

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Old 12-17-2012, 11:11 AM   #139
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I canīt remember reading such a quote provided by you and anyway how can he alone remember the anchient stories better or more in detail, than a more ancient person (Galadriel) or do you mean the quote, that his house represents lore? That is hardly convincing.
No that was just one of several quotes I have provided. Here it is again.

'I will tell you the tale of Tinueviel.... and there are none now except Elrond, that remember it aright as it was told of old.
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Galadriel stayed too becase she wanted see Sauron fall and because Men were important to her. Of course she was banned but even if not, she would not leave ME.
That is the difference. Elrond stayed probably in accord with the Valar's wishes much like Cirdan. Galadriel was banned.
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So, she had the same reason to stay as Elrond.
Partly, but she also greatly desired to rule Earth and it was not with the Valar's blessing she was staying.
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Actually I thought I know pretty much what happened in the 2nd age but that Sauron came in person to Rivendell is new to me. I searched the Sil and the Internet but I couldnīt find that it was Sauron himself, I just found that:



True, Elrond and his troops were able to drive Saurons host away, but that happened in many other regions of ME also under Gil-galad, the havens for example were safed. I think the defeat of Saurons troops was more a military act and not very much magic (the rings were not made for war anyway). Itīs not like in the third age, where not many elves were left, Elrond would have an army in the second age.

I donīt found anything that indicates that Sauron was in Rivendel.

Yes, it says that Rivendel was besieged but not that Sauron was there in person and could not enter.

He wanted to destroy Lindon anyway, together with the havens, independent of Rivedell.

He can hardy be everywhere at the same time, so if it says Saruron besieged Imladris it would be his troops in his name, unless there is a quote which says "Sauron was in person in Rivendel".
I hope this does not come across as rude, but you shouldn't just search the net looking for quotes, but read through the entire text. This way you can get the whole picture.

Sauron personally killed Celebrimbor and personally drove Elrond back to Rivendell, where he was unable to break through.

Leaving a huge army on your back is awful tactics in war and Sauron only did so, becaue he wanted the Elvish rings to strengthen his position. When the Numenoreans attacked, Sauron himself almost was killed personally.

In th letters Tolkien clarifies that Elrond's enchantment is what kept Rivendell safe.
Quote:
There is no indication that he is the greatest power, unless you accept this "expecially Elrond" in this one letter. But that letter is debatable, many have differnet opinions regarding that. Also again, itīs vague
There are many other quotes.
Quote:
-Boromir

It almost logic that Elrond would be considered the greatest loremaster, he is the most well known, while hardly no one knows Galadriel or has a completely wrong image about her.

In this case I canīt take Bormiers/Denethors opinion serious. Had Gandalf said it, then it wold be another matter but that is not the same as the "not even Elrond can fortell!

I have no problem accepting it but all the quotes you provided one can interpret differntly, there is no explicit statement, such as "Elrond was the greatest power besides the Maiar in ME" or something like that.

Elrond can never be superior to the equal of Feanor, (Galadriel) cause Feanor was the mightiest of the children of Eru (save Luthien). The top 3 of Erus children are definite!

Number 2 and 3 are Feanor and Galadriel, number 1 is Luthien.



That I would call a explicit statement. There is no wiggle room.

Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the elves.
Gondor's ancient records and Denethor were well aware of Galadriel. If they praised Elrond, then it was because he was worthy of such praise.

You keep brining old quotes, which have been dismissed.

Greatest does not mean the mightiest.
Elrond is not one of the Noldor or even the Eldar.
We have gone full circle now and there is no point continuing. You are bringing up quotes I gave reasons against right at the start of the discussion.

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Old 12-17-2012, 02:24 PM   #140
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you keep brining old quotes, which have been dismissed.

Greatest does not mean the mightiest.
Elrond is not one of the Noldor or even the Eldar.
We have gone full circle now and there is no point continuing. You are bringing up quotes I gave reasons against right at the start of the discussion.
Greatness does include many things, it depends on how a person would define greatness. For me greatness contains innate power, political power, deeds, intelligence and might as well.

I pretty much aware that Elrond is not one of the Noldor or Eldar, but if Galadriel bestes the likes of Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon and every other elf of Valinor and is on par with Feanor (in many things, not only greatness, but even might) then that says everything or would you claim that Elrond is superiour to all the great Noldor like Fingolfin or on par with Feanor himself, whose only equal it is said is Galadriel?

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Old 12-17-2012, 02:57 PM   #141
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Greatness does include many things, it depends on how a person would define greatness. For me greatness contains innate power, political power, deeds, intelligence and might as well.

I pretty much aware that Elrond is not one of the Noldor or Eldar, but if Galadriel bestes the likes of Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon and every other elf of Valinor and is on par with Feanor (in many things, not only greatness, but even might) then that says everything or would you claim that Elrond is superiour to all the great Noldor like Fingolfin or on par with Feanor himself, whose only equal it is said is Galadriel?
I actually DO think Galadriel is supposed to have more innate power than all those princes with the exception of Feanor, who is the most powerful save Luthien. I also think the text supports Elrond as well being stronger than them.

Nothing in the text has ever suggested Fingon and Turgon had more power than Elrond or Galadriel. Even Fingolfin's greatest skills are in battle.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:34 AM   #142
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I think Arwen in the movies was prettier, don't get me wrong Cate Blanchett is gorgeous too, but Arwen is amazing! However, Galadriel seems to be more powerful and 'elfy' and she also is a seriously awesome woman.

So I think Arwen is prettier, but I think Galadriel is cooler.
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:28 AM   #143
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I think Liv Tyler has one of those faces you love or hate. My young male cousin claimed she looked like an alien and literally couldn't bear to watch her. For me she looked sulky a lot of the time though I have warmed to her in interviews. I thought Cate Blanchett waa perfect. She is a truly great actress and her slightly feline looks give her beauty an otherworldly quality. However to be fair I have never quite decided who I qould have preferred as Arwen.

But beauty is subjective. In objective categories there is no contest. Galadriel wins!
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Old 08-22-2013, 04:38 AM   #144
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However to be fair I have never quite decided who I qould have preferred as Arwen.
I have, but it's academic because they would have been too old by the time the films were made. I could have seen Jane Lapotaire in the role, or possibly Cherie Lunghi. Madeleine Stowe would probably still have looked young enough, and is closer to the kind of beauty I would associate with Arwen.

Thinking about it ... hasn't occurred to me before, but there's Rebecca Pidgeon (from The Winslow Boy). She would have been excellent. I also think Sandra Bullock is a good actress, and could have conveyed the depth and maturity of Arwen (thinking of her other roles).

But all subjective, as Mithalwen said, and just my own opinions.

I agree that Cate Blanchett was excellent casting, though. There is a kind of translucent quality to her.
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:54 AM   #145
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Yesxacyoung Madeleine Stowecis the right type. The nearest right age in looks for me is the singer Sophie Ellis Bextor
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:25 PM   #146
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Arwen v. Galadriel?

*blinks*

I wouldn't kick either out of bed for eating crackers.

*shrugs*
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:23 AM   #147
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If I would pick an Arwen it would be Eva Green. She is hot hot hot. Maybe a bit too sexy to be Arwen, but she's still beautiful anyway.
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:49 AM   #148
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She woud be perfect as Aredhel though. Slight bad girl look.
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:06 PM   #149
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I also think the text supports Elrond as well being stronger than them.
I'm not even sure that Elrond was the most powerful Elf in his own kingdom.
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:20 PM   #150
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Two beautiful Elven ladies - Who would you say is fairest? (Keep your axes at home!)
Galadriel. From my 1st reading of Lord of the Rings I had a thing for Galadriel. That same reading gave me Arwen in the Appendices, and I thought her fair, but I never really had the connection.
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Old 10-19-2013, 09:57 PM   #151
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Do you have any idea what happened in the 2nd age? Sauron came in person to Rivendell and could not overthrow it. In fact he decided to go and destroy Lindon, because he STILL could not destroy Rivendell.
Where did you get this from? I do not think this is true from what I remember. Sauron never came to Rivendell. Elrond established it after he and his forces were almost destroyed by Sauron's forces, but was saved in the end by a group of Dwarves and Elves. Sauron left pursuit of Elrond to take on these guys who had attacked him from behind and chased them all the back to Moria where they closed the gates on him. Sauron himself went to destroy Lindon afterwards, leaving behind a strong force to put a siege on Elrond so he would not be attacked from behind again.

I figure you are talking about this force that kept Elrond and his people in check at Imladris? Sauron was not with this force which in the end was destroyed with the aid of the Númenóreans after Gil-galad nearly destroyed Sauron. Sauron did not go to destroy Lindon because he could not take on Elrond. The reason he wanted to take Lindon was to get those Rings of Power the Elves were hiding from him. Elrond he could clearly deal with. Elrond was almost destroyed when Sauron destroyed Eregion, but was saved by another force of Dwarves/Elves.
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Old 12-27-2013, 07:58 PM   #152
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I'm not even sure that Elrond was the most powerful Elf in his own kingdom.
He wasn't that would be Glorfindel, but he is an exceptional case. His powers were greatly enhanced after his return.
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Where did you get this from? I do not think this is true from what I remember. Sauron never came to Rivendell. Elrond established it after he and his forces were almost destroyed by Sauron's forces, but was saved in the end by a group of Dwarves and Elves. Sauron left pursuit of Elrond to take on these guys who had attacked him from behind and chased them all the back to Moria where they closed the gates on him. Sauron himself went to destroy Lindon afterwards, leaving behind a strong force to put a siege on Elrond so he would not be attacked from behind again.

I figure you are talking about this force that kept Elrond and his people in check at Imladris? Sauron was not with this force which in the end was destroyed with the aid of the Númenóreans after Gil-galad nearly destroyed Sauron. Sauron did not go to destroy Lindon because he could not take on Elrond. The reason he wanted to take Lindon was to get those Rings of Power the Elves were hiding from him. Elrond he could clearly deal with. Elrond was almost destroyed when Sauron destroyed Eregion, but was saved by another force of Dwarves/Elves.
Elrond was first sent by Gil-galad to help Celebrimbor. He arrives too late and it's here where his forces are about to be destroyed if not for the dwarves. The attack from Moria gives Elrond time to escape and found Imladris.

It's at this point that Sauron forgets about Lindon and goes around securing complete control of Eriador. He has complete control of Eriador except for Rivendell alone. It's only after he still cannot take Rivendell that he then sets his mind on invading Lindon. It's at this point the Numenoreans arrive. His inability to take Imladris is precisely why he had to leave a large part of his army back. It was 5 years until Sauron decided to invade Lindon.

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Old 12-30-2013, 12:31 AM   #153
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It's only after he still cannot take Rivendell that he then sets his mind on invading Lindon. It's at this point the Numenoreans arrive. His inability to take Imladris is precisely why he had to leave a large part of his army back. It was 5 years until Sauron decided to invade Lindon.
I don't see it this way. Why did Sauron start the war? He wanted to take the work of the Smiths of Eregion, "the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures... but the Seven and the Three he could not find." [UT; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, p. 249]. When he realized the Three were not there he tried to torture their location out of Celebrimbor. Sauron did not attack Lindon because he could not take Rivendell. Lindon was where he felt the Rings were being held;

"Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon, where he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings;" [p. 250]

It is true that Rivendell and Lindon alone of all the lands of Eriador Sauron never took. As he ravaged the lands many fled to Rivendell and it appears Sauron's biggest interest in Rivendell at this point was, "leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" as he "marched west towards the land of Gil-galad" [p. 250]. This detachment was able to lay siege to Rivendell and keep them in check even though Rivendell itself was not overcome. Rivendell itself without the aid of other armies could not take out said detachment, "The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gil-galad, and utterly destroyed." [p. 251]

You say, "It was 5 years until Sauron decided to invade Lindon." Sauron's invasion of Eriador began in 1695. Rivendell was not even established until 1697. If you ask me, the process westward was slowly developing. Besides, when Rivendell was founded in 1697 Sauron was chasing the Elves and Dwarves back to Moria.

From the Tale of Years:

1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.
1699 Sauron overruns Eriador.
1700 Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.
1701 Sauron is driven out of Eriador.
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Old 12-30-2013, 01:16 AM   #154
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He wasn't that would be Glorfindel, but he is an exceptional case. His powers were greatly enhanced after his return.
I can't say who exactly is the most powerful Elf in Rivendell. Certainly there were few left for;

"here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269]

Gandalf expounds on the qualities of some of these lords dwelling in Rivendell to Frodo. There were Elves from Aman of great power dwelling there. Who the greatest of them is I cannot guess. Glorfindel points out to Aragorn and the Hobbits;

"There are few, even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south." [bk:1, ch. 12, p. 256]
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Old 12-30-2013, 06:16 AM   #155
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I don't see it this way. Why did Sauron start the war? He wanted to take the work of the Smiths of Eregion, "the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures... but the Seven and the Three he could not find." [UT; The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, p. 249]. When he realized the Three were not there he tried to torture their location out of Celebrimbor. Sauron did not attack Lindon because he could not take Rivendell. Lindon was where he felt the Rings were being held;

"Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon, where he believed that he had the most chance of seizing one, or more, of the Three Rings;" [p. 250]

It is true that Rivendell and Lindon alone of all the lands of Eriador Sauron never took. As he ravaged the lands many fled to Rivendell and it appears Sauron's biggest interest in Rivendell at this point was, "leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" as he "marched west towards the land of Gil-galad" [p. 250]. This detachment was able to lay siege to Rivendell and keep them in check even though Rivendell itself was not overcome. Rivendell itself without the aid of other armies could not take out said detachment, "The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gil-galad, and utterly destroyed." [p. 251]

You say, "It was 5 years until Sauron decided to invade Lindon." Sauron's invasion of Eriador began in 1695. Rivendell was not even established until 1697. If you ask me, the process westward was slowly developing. Besides, when Rivendell was founded in 1697 Sauron was chasing the Elves and Dwarves back to Moria.

From the Tale of Years:

1695 Sauron's forces invade Eriador. Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
1697 Eregion laid waste. Death of Celebrimbor. The gates of Moria are shut. Elrond retreats with remnant of the Noldor and founds the refuge of Imladris.
1699 Sauron overruns Eriador.
1700 Tar-Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated.
1701 Sauron is driven out of Eriador.
Leaving a huge army at your back is a terrible mistake. Sauron only left the dwarves behind, because he could not get into Moria.

His aim was to take the rings, but he wanted to destroy everything in his path.

"But now Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador."


"By that time Sauron had mastered all of Eriador save only besieged Imladris."

Sauron did not wish to leave a huge force behind and knew it would weaken his army.

It does not take 2 years to march an army to Lindon from Eriador. The implication of the text was that Sauron was at the siege of Imladris and then finding it too difficult to take, left a large portion of his forces there to go and take Lindon.
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Old 12-30-2013, 06:22 AM   #156
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I can't say who exactly is the most powerful Elf in Rivendell. Certainly there were few left for;

"here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269]

Gandalf expounds on the qualities of some of these lords dwelling in Rivendell to Frodo. There were Elves from Aman of great power dwelling there. Who the greatest of them is I cannot guess. Glorfindel points out to Aragorn and the Hobbits;

"There are few, even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and south." [bk:1, ch. 12, p. 256]
Glorfindel even before his death was an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer. Considering Gandalf the grey also died killing a Balrog should indicate his power. After his death, his powers were greatly enhanced and he was closer to a Maiar than an elf.

"For long years he remained in Valinor in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self sacrifice."
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Old 12-30-2013, 08:21 AM   #157
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It does not take 2 years to march an army to Lindon from Eriador. The implication of the text was that Sauron was at the siege of Imladris and then finding it too difficult to take, left a large portion of his forces there to go and take Lindon.
Certainly not. I would say he wanted to consolidate his military hold on Eriador before marching further west which is why he had to keep an army back to keep Elrond from attacking his rear after all else was in his hands. It took him 2 years to take Eregion and a further 2 years to consolidate his hold on Eriador. I would not say that in those years for any great length of time he was at war with Rivendell as there was a good deal of migration to it during this period in which "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador."

"as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves, many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward." [UT, p. 250]

If Sauron is fighting and laying siege to Rivendell all this time how is it that all these Elves got through said siege to swell Elrond's ranks? There are not many ways into Rivendell. It's a hard place to get to. The siege was initiated before Sauron took off to try and steal the Rings. Now obviously in a siege you block reinforcements from coming, but here we have it that "many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward". What kind of a siege is this then? Was there one since 1697 or only before Sauron set out to march on Lindon, "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" after consolidating his hold on Eriador?

To you Sauron took 5 years to decide to invade Lindon which is why he was taking control of Eriador. I'd say that he was taking control of Eriador to consolidate his military hold on the land before he marched his armies all the way west to wrest the Rings from the Elves. Sauron knew what he wanted to do. How to do it? This was his plan. Unfortunately for him, the time it took for him to take Eregion and consolidate his hold on Eriador was enough for the Númenóreans to come to the aid of the Elves.
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Old 12-30-2013, 08:33 AM   #158
Belegorn
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Originally Posted by cellurdur View Post
Glorfindel even before his death was an elf of great power and a Balrog slayer. Considering Gandalf the grey also died killing a Balrog should indicate his power. After his death, his powers were greatly enhanced and he was closer to a Maiar than an elf.

"For long years he remained in Valinor in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self sacrifice."
I'm not doubting Glorfindel's power. I'm just saying I don't know that he would be that one who is most powerful in Rivendell. It is certainly possible, but I do not know this. As I pointed out there were great Elves from Aman who dwelt there and as Gandalf said, "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269] An example of an Elf fighting a Maia would be Gil-galad who actually did take Sauron out who was said to be the greatest of Melkor's servants, also Ecthelion himself took out a Balrog, in fact the Chief Balrog Gothmog. In Rivendell there still reside great Elves besides Glorfindel, augmented though his abilities may be.
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Old 12-30-2013, 08:51 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Belegorn View Post
I'm not doubting Glorfindel's power. I'm just saying I don't know that he would be that one who is most powerful in Rivendell. It is certainly possible, but I do not know this. As I pointed out there were great Elves from Aman who dwelt there and as Gandalf said, "against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." [FotR, Bk: 2; ch. 1, p. 269] An example of an Elf fighting a Maia would be Gil-galad who actually did take Sauron out who was said to be the greatest of Melkor's servants, also Ecthelion himself took out a Balrog, in fact the Chief Balrog Gothmog. In Rivendell there still reside great Elves besides Glorfindel, augmented though his abilities may be.
Gil-galad fought Sauron with Elendil and it would seem Elendil alsted longer.

Defeating a foe in a physical fight does not mean you are his or her equal in power.

Glorfindel already was a Balrog slayer and after this had his powers GREATLY enhanced.

This quote by Gandalf also adds weight to the argument.

"Even if you chose for us an Elf-Lord such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road of fire by the power that is in him."

It is Glorfindel alongside Gandalf who have the seats at the right and left hand of Elrond.

Is there a direct statement that Glorfindel is the most powerful elf in Middle Earth? No. However, like with Sauron personally attacking Imladris, all the evidence implies he was.
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:07 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Belegorn View Post
Certainly not. I would say he wanted to consolidate his military hold on Eriador before marching further west which is why he had to keep an army back to keep Elrond from attacking his rear after all else was in his hands. It took him 2 years to take Eregion and a further 2 years to consolidate his hold on Eriador. I would not say that in those years for any great length of time he was at war with Rivendell as there was a good deal of migration to it during this period in which "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador."

"as he ravaged the lands, slaying or drawing off all the small groups of Men and hunting the remaining Elves, many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward." [UT, p. 250]

If Sauron is fighting and laying siege to Rivendell all this time how is it that all these Elves got through said siege to swell Elrond's ranks? There are not many ways into Rivendell. It's a hard place to get to. The siege was initiated before Sauron took off to try and steal the Rings. Now obviously in a siege you block reinforcements from coming, but here we have it that "many fled to swell Elrond's host to the northward". What kind of a siege is this then? Was there one since 1697 or only before Sauron set out to march on Lindon, "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" after consolidating his hold on Eriador?

To you Sauron took 5 years to decide to invade Lindon which is why he was taking control of Eriador. I'd say that he was taking control of Eriador to consolidate his military hold on the land before he marched his armies all the way west to wrest the Rings from the Elves. Sauron knew what he wanted to do. How to do it? This was his plan. Unfortunately for him, the time it took for him to take Eregion and consolidate his hold on Eriador was enough for the Númenóreans to come to the aid of the Elves.
Consolidating his military hold of Eriador would mean taking out Rivendell. From a strategic point, taking out Rivendell was key and equally key from a personal point of view. Sauron hated Luthien more than anyone else and never forgot that she shamed him. He had a vendetta against all of her descendants. Earendil calling down the power of Valinor would only increase his hatred for Elrond. To think he would spend 2 years without personally trying to take Rivendell seems highly unlikely.

Sauron would have had to march to Rivendell giving fleeing elves time to escape there first.

It does not say Sauron sent a strong detachment to contain Rivendell, but he left one already in place. It also says he called together his scattered troops and then marched West.

Sauron with the bulk of his army was most likely at Rivendell, whilst he had other bands destroying groups of men and elves around Eriador.

It makes no sense for Sauron himself to focus on small groups of elves, whilst his most hated enemy is left alone for two years.
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