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Old 10-07-2002, 05:38 PM   #1
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lindil has just left Hobbiton.
Sting Results from the Poll re: the name ' Laegolas' in the Fall of Gondolin

Below is, as far as I know, is the essence of our discussion on Legolas.

the old comments on Legolas

lindil:looking legolas up in the name list on p.216 I
read:'named by the eldar there [in Tol Eressea]
So he has already been given a 'Quenya' name by JRRT!
there is then a reference to an extended note in I
wherein we read CRT saying
'the following Note is of
great interest' "Laigolas =green-leaf,......legolast
i.e.keen-sight...but perhaps both were his names as the
gnomes delighted to give similar sounding namesof
dissimilar meaning, legolas-the ordinary form is a
confusion of the 2."

So we are given 2 options that I can see [and I do not
excpect anyone to rely on me for linguistic skills!]

A 'quenya' - Laiqalasse'
or an uncorrupted 'sindarin' - Laigolas Legolast.
a third option could be just Laigolas -

Aiwendil:I don't think 'Laigolas' is usable, at least not if it is meant to represent a different word from 'Legolas'. It seems most probable to me that it was merely an alternate spelling. But anyway, if we accept the etymology of Legolas (as we must), then 'Laigolas' lacks an etymology entirely.

Tar Elenion :Actually there is an etymology of sorts.
"Legolas means 'green-leaves', a woodland name - dialetical form of pure Sindarin laegolas: *lasse [with overscore on the 'e'] (High-elven lasse, S. las(s)) 'leaf'; *gwa-lassa/*gwa-lassie 'collection of leaves, foliage' (H.E. olassie [w/ overscore on 'e'], S. golas, -olas); *laika 'green' - basis LAY as in laire 'summer' (H.E. laica, S. laeg (seldom used, usually replaced by calen), woodland leg)."
Quoted from Letter 211.
"'Technically' Legolas is a compound (according to rules) of S. laeg 'viridis fresh and green, and go-lass 'collection of leaves, foliage'."
Quoted from Letter 297.

'ae' and 'ai' are often interchangeable (eg Aeglos, Aiglos (Gil-galad's spear)).

Aiwendil:What I meant was that 'Laigolas' is really not a different name at all from 'Legolas'. However, 'Legolast' might be used, if it could still represent 'keen-sight' (I doubt if it could, but we might change it to a more suitable form).

lindil:Re: legolast /laigolas etc. I am for anything other than duplicating legolas /legolas greenleaf.
The others are such close variants that perhaps the Quenya version should be used despite it standing out.

Cian :

I'd go with Laegolas for the "pure Sindarin" that JRRT offers, in the letter quoted by Tar-Elenion.

Laica (LAY) is cognate with S. laeg ~ Helge F. prefers to also honor "older" word laiqua as a viable Quenya word as well. Laiqa shows old "Qenya" orthography.

Tolkien gave the next elements in both High and Grey Elven (S. golas, -olas Q. olassi) as denoting a collection of leaves. Cheers~

later Cian posted:
Re: keeping the form Legolas ~ remember that this form shows Silvan dialect.

Lindil, yes an "updated" situation can (may) be considered:

Quenya laiqua (LAYAK) Sindarin cognate *laeb (Noldorin lhoeb in Etym.)
Quenya laica (LAY) Sindarin cognate laeg (Cf. Q&E WotJ laegel, Laegrim)

The term Laiquendi "Greenelves" was likely originally conceived of as resulting from laiqua+quendi. But laica can also "fit" here, so to speak ~ according to Helge F., the first element may be a reduced form of _laica_ , or prefixed _lai_ may represent only the base itself (LAY), or maybe even laica+quendi > Laiquendi considering rocco+qun > roquen "knight".


Cian posted :

I'd go with Laegolas for the "pure Sindarin" that JRRT offers, in the letter quoted by Tar-Elenion.

later Cian posted:
Re: keeping the form Legolas ~ remember that this form shows Silvan dialect.

Aiwendil on the 11th of October provided this excellent summary:

Legolas Options

Forgive the longwindedness instead of a simple vote, but I feel compelled to summarize the situation:

As I see it, we currently have the four following options with regard to the name "Legolas":

1. Retain "Legolas". The advantage to this is that we are making one less alteration to the words of JRRT. The possible disadvantages are these: a. "Legolas" appears in LotR as a (probably) Sivanized name, not pure Sindarin. The name in FoG should obviously not be Silvan. b. Elves do not tend to reuse names.

2. Change to Quenya ("Laiqualasse" or something like that). The possible justification is that some names originally given in Sindarin were changed to Quenya (e.g., Bronweg to Voronwe). On the other hand, it seems like this would be taking a little too much liberty with the name. Also, this does not solve the problem (if it is a problem) that the name is reused in LotR; it is the same name, whether it appears in the Sindarin or Quenya form.

3. Change to Laegolas. This would address problem 1a, replacing the perhaps-Silvanized name with a conjectural pure Sindarin form. The disadvantages are: a. we are changing a name (always a disadvantage, however minor) and b. it does not address problem 1b.

4. Change to Legolast or something similar. The idea here is to change the etymology from "Green-leaf" to "Keen-sight". This would nicely sidestep 1a and 1b. This is, unlike "Laicalasse" and "Laegolas", actually a different name from "Legolas". The justification for this is that BoLT I suggests that the name may have been "Laigolas Legolast". The disadvantage is that there is no evidence for the name "Legolast" being his only or primary name.

what time frame should we give this Aiwendil and any one else?

2 weeks from today [ending monday october 21, 2002]?

[ October 07, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
***as no one has suggested a time frame I put forth 3 weeks, unless anyone has objections/alt. suggestions and they are seconded]***

[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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