the elessar

[ecthelion]

Who made it? In the book of unfinished tales it says at first that enerdhil made it and that the original was brought back with gandalf. The second version says that enerdhil made it and that celebrimbor made a second one for galadrial (and he also says he was from gondolin which is interesting because in the silmarillian it says that he went with his father to nargothrond). And in the third version it says that celebrimbor made it (he still lives in gondolin) and also made the second one.
I dont know about anyone else, but this is confusing. Celebrimbor definitly seems the most likely, but in the silmarillion it never says he went to gondolin and in the book of unfinished tales tolkien says that enerdhil was the greater of the two.

Sorry if this is confusing, but I need help.

[Galin]

It is a bit confusing, but there are two internal variations on purpose, according to the text itself -- in other words Tolkien intended that there be two competing tales concerning the Elessar-stone, within Middle-earth.

The Celebrimbor matter is external however (Tolkien changing his mind). When JRRT first wrote The Elessar Celebrimbor was not yet imagined as a Feanorian -- but in any case Tolkien ultimately published that he was a descendant of Feanor. I would argue then, that with this external change there is really no reason to put Celebrimbor in Gondolin.

So, with respect to the end note in Unfinished Tales (following the 'text proper' concerning the stone), where Celebrimbor replaces Enerdhil in Gondolin -- once Celebrimbor becomes Feanorian in Tolkien's world -- do we then imagine that Enerdhil goes back into the text, so to speak? In other words, does he then replace Celebrimbor in Gondolin, after Celebrimbor appears to have replaced him?

Who knows? These are essentially draft texts were are dealing with, and I'm pretty sure we had another thread around here somewhere, looking at certain arguably 'problematic' issues surrounding The Elessar...

For example, like why Galadriel needed the stone in the Third Age, with respect to the 'Olorin version' I mean.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Galin

For example, like why Galadriel needed the stone in the Third Age, with respect to the 'Olorin version' I mean.

I think you are here not employing, in enough measure, what you call a brain dear Galin, if that is your real name by the way.

Why can't Tolkien have intended this to be a visit from Olorin, not Gandalf the Istar, at a time when the power of the Elessar jool could be employed, but not Nenya. In other words, not necessarily in the Third Age, when of course Galadriel can and does employ Nenya for preservation power, notably in Lothlorien.

Haven't you ever noticed before how much Tolkien employs the name Olorin in this section of the tale, rather than Gandalf, and that his parenthetical reference 'who was known in Middle-earth as Mithrandir' could easily refer to days that followed this visit in history, to days after the Istari came to Middle-earth.

Come on!

Plus, isn't there a general reference in later writing to Olorin visiting folk in Middle-earth? But I suppose you are too lazy to look that up given the mere possibity of it existing only in my poor memory... so good day to you sir.

Really.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Why can't Tolkien have intended this to be a visit from Olorin, not Gandalf the Istar, at a time when the power of the Elessar jool could be employed, but not Nenya. In other words, not necessarily in the Third Age, when of course Galadriel can and does employ Nenya for preservation power, notably in Lothlorien.

I'm inclined to doubt the Elessar would have been brought by Olórin prior to the Third Age. I can't at the moment recall the reference to Olórin physically visiting Middle-earth; only that The Silmarillion credits him with walking unseen among the Elves at times, or in the form of one of them. It doesn't seem likely to me that he would have been allowed to go to Middle-earth alone, seeing what havoc had been wrought by some of his fellow Maia (Sauron and Balrogs). The coming of the Istari also seems such a monumental event in the history that I think it would have been cheapened by the notion of Olórin having been to Middle-earth and spoken to some there already.
The recurrence of the naming "Olórin" could be explained by the idea that the Istari had only recently arrived and had not yet been given their Middle-earth names. Also, "Olórin" would likely have been known to Galadriel from her time in Valinor.

[Galin]

Also, "Olórin" would likely have been known to Galadriel from her time in Valinor.

To me the passage from The Silmarillion suggests that perhaps Olórin did not make himself known, in general anyway, as Olórin at least. But that said, he does appear to have been known to Glorfindel in Aman. And after Tolkien notes that Glorfindel had become a friend and follower of Olórin in Valinor, JRRT adds:

'That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.'

JRRT, Last Writings, Glorfindel II, The Peoples Of Middle-Earth

So, I'm thinking that Tolkien was possibly thinking that Olórin visited Galadriel here, before the Third Age...

... otherwise, I'm back to [if this is Gandalf the Istar and thus well into the Third Age]: why would Galadriel consider employing the Elessar stone when she can already use Nenya? Not that we can't think of a reason, perhaps, but so far it seems easier [for me] to think Tolkien imagined an earlier visit with the stone.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

So, I'm thinking that Tolkien was possibly thinking that Olórin visited Galadriel here, before the Third Age...

A question I would have, is how did he get there, if before the other Istari?
In the UT essay The Istari, it tells that upon Gandalf's first meeting with Círdan when disembarking at Mithlond, the latter

....divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

If Gandalf had arrived there before, that would not have been the "first meeting" with Círdan, and I get the idea that no ship from the West could have come there without his knowledge.
I suppose Olórin could have "flown" disembodied over the Sea, as Sauron did from the wreck of Númenor, but that seems like a very long shot.

Originally Posted by Galin;689993... otherwise, I'm back to [if this is Gandalf the Istar and thus well into the Third Age

: why would Galadriel consider employing the Elessar stone when she can already use Nenya? Not that we can't think of a reason, perhaps, but so far it seems easier [for me] to think Tolkien imagined an earlier visit with the stone.

Or, there's the other tale, that Celebrimbor made it for Galadriel. No conflict about Nenya there.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

A question I would have, is how did he get there, if before the other Istari? In the UT essay The Istari, it tells that upon Gandalf's first meeting with Círdan when disembarking at Mithlond, the latter (...) I suppose Olórin could have "flown" disembodied over the Sea, as Sauron did from the wreck of Númenor, but that seems like a very long shot.

In the entry for the base PHAN- [Words, Phrases And Passages, Parma Eldalamberon] it's said:

'But it is often mentioned in the legends that certain of the Valar, and occasionally of the Maiar, 'passed over the Sea', and appeared in Middle-earth. (Notably Orome, Ulmo, and Yavanna) The Valar and Maiar were essentially 'spirits', according to Elvish tradition given before the making of Ea. They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Ea where they desired to be.*

*subject only to special limitations voluntarily taken upon themselves or decreed by Eru. (...)

That 'footnote' is much longer, but I don't recall anything that notably limits the idea here, keeping Melian in mind for example, who passed to Middle-earth and back, seemingly. I suppose one could argue that Tolkien ultimately rejected this too, since an arguably abbreviated [by comparison] explanation of the fanar of the Valar was published in The Road Goes Ever On, but the lack might also be due to brevity there. Hard to say.

Or, there's the other tale, that Celebrimbor made it for Galadriel. No conflict about Nenya there.

Heh, well yes, and formerly I thought Tolkien was perhaps purposely making 'version A' questionable by describing this scenario, but even if so it remains problematic within its own version. That is, 'version A' is still internal, it's intended to be an in story variation, and in that context I think it's a rather notable point of chronology -- which fades away however, if Olorin passed over Sea...

... like Melian did

[Ivriniel]

I'm highly disinclined to imagine that the Olorin we knew as Gandalf, "...known as Olorin in the West...", bore any Elessar anywhere as a pre-Istari Maian Spirit. It's too obscure, though a theoretical, I suppose. Low likelihood one.

He did not manufacture it, and irrespective of the competing narratives on the darned Elessar we knew he did not manufacture it. As a lesser artefact (certainly not as groovy or with as much goo goo as the Palantiri or The Rings), it makes much more sense that it was an Elfy making. That has implications for inferences about it, its keeper, who held it, distributed it and why.

We knew Galadriel had it, TA. Celebrimbor gifted it to her, in one of the variations of its origin while he stalked her to gettiton with him. I believe he asked for a lock of her hair, in fact, which she denied him, (which on an aside, adds to the significance of Gimli's request. Looks like good ole Galadriel kept her affections for Durin's Folk in tact, after SA). Then there was all that stuff about Celebrimbor and Galadriel hanging out together in the Ost-In-Edhil as they worked towards preserving Elvendom in Middle Earth. He knew she wanted Elvendom-y things in Middle Earth and so, during his stalking, made the Elessar. Love buying - creepy man, erm, I mean Elf . Seems like a consistent narrative thread, at that time he was hot for her. As I understood the emphasis in why it was crafted (a pre-Ring assay in attempts to do what The Rings did, but better), it is also consistent with the improvements upon the Elessar in the Gwaith-i-Mirdain's artefacts--the Rings of Power. That kind of narrative consistency is absent from competing models of inference.

That's why the competing narrative, with an odd name--Enerdhil--in an obscure footnote, firstly, and then the retina-burning idea of Celebrimbor in Gondolin. Not. Once Celebrimbor is tied to Feanor's line, there's no way in any abstraction that his presence makes sense in Gondolin. The Seven Sons of Feanor were to Gondolin (the estrangement between Fingolfin, his line, and Feanor's) what chalk is to cheese, which I think is what Galin is emphasising.

[Mithalwen]

Wasn't it Feanor whom Galadriel refused a lock of hair?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Wasn't it Feanor whom Galadriel refused a lock of hair?

It's been a while since I re-read. I'll go check UFT and my other tomes.....cheers

[Galin]

Yes it was Feanor [The Shibboleth of Feanor] who was refused by Galadriel... concerning the Nerwenian hair matter.

Another possibility is that Olórin took ship to Edhellond in the Second Age. Not that I necessarily would choose version A over B, but again this merely allows a way to step around the question of Nenya in the Third Age.

Granted A notes that the 'years' of her exile were wearing heavy on Galadriel, but I think there is still plenty of years in the Second Age for this, before Numenor fell. Another thing that threw me a bit before was the brief statement that Olórin had arrived with the Elessar out of the West, as if referencing only one trip; but that too seems vague enough to me.

And yes I think Celebrimbor the Feanorean was a later idea than the text of the Elessar, which is why I plug Enerdhil back in as the Elf from Gondolin without Celebrimbor. Again we are dealing with a still private [to Tolkien] text, not necessarily updated after Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean [although there was some revision regarding Galadriel's ban, for example].


With respect to the first version of the two competing Elessar tales, Hammond and Scull (Reader's Guide) also note that, in comparison to what was already published: '... the tale seems to suggest that there was a breach of trust, in that Galadriel did not keep the Elessar for the one destined to receive it'...

... because in The Lord of the Rings Galadriel said that she had given the stone to her daughter. In the second version Tolkien explicitly refers to Galadriel giving the stone to her daughter, so it doesn't seem like he had forgotten this. I suppose Galadriel still could be said to have 'handed it on when the time came' as technically the jewel had come to her once again to give to Aragorn (if we look at Gandalf's statement more as a prediction), though even so, she handed it on before Elessar came to receive it.

I noted this in the thread: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15599

[cellurdur]

Like with the Princes of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left two versions. I personally now favour the version of Celebrimbor making a second Elessar.

The question of Gandalf turning up in the Second Age would raise all sorts of problems. At that point Sauron had not yet grown so powerful that the West could not defeat him unassisted.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Like with the Princes of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left two versions. I personally now favour the version of Celebrimbor making a second Elessar.

Is it like this however [it might be but I can't recall right now]?

In other words, are there two internal versions of something relating to the Princes of Dol Amroth?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Is it like this however [it might be but I can't recall right now]?

In other words, are there two internal versions of something relating to the Princes of Dol Amroth?

Well I assume they are 'internal'. We have the one story where the Princes are descendants of Imrazor and Mithrellas.

Then we have the other version where the princes are close relatives to Elendil and he personally raises them to the rank of 'prince'. This is the version I tend to favour, but we have two accounts, which though are not definitely conflicting like the case with the Elessar are not harmonious and cannot really be forced to fit together.

[Galin]

Well, sorry to be pedantic but do we know these two versions are not Tolkien simply changing his mind?

I have a vague memory of CJRT giving a possible explanation about how to reconcile two 'somethings' about Dol Amroth... but I'm pretty sure there [if this is the same matter], he also admits or suggests the likelihood of these being two accounts that were not necessarily both meant to be confused from a story-internal perspective.

I mean we could have more than two versions of The Elessar if we merely look at what JRRT wrote about it, but The Elessar as a text is clearly treating the variant tales as both found within the subcreated world...

... which is why, as I say above: it's one thing to chose version B as a reaction to something seemingly problematic in A, but version A was not merely a discarded idea by comparison [Tolkien rejecting A for B], and is still intended as a tale within the conceit.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well, sorry to be pedantic but do we know these two versions are not Tolkien simply changing his mind?

I have a vague memory of CJRT giving a possible explanation about how to reconcile two 'somethings' about Dol Amroth... but I'm pretty sure there [if this is the same matter], he also admits or suggests the likelihood of these being two accounts that were not necessarily both meant to be confused from a story-internal perspective.

I mean we could have more than two versions of The Elessar if we merely look at what JRRT wrote about it, but The Elessar as a text is clearly treating the variant tales as both found within the subcreated world...

... which is why, as I say above: it's one thing to chose version B as a reaction to something seemingly problematic in A, but version A was not merely a discarded idea by comparison [Tolkien rejecting A for B], and is still intended as a tale within the conceit.

This is why I said I assumed they are 'internal'. However, even if this is a case of Tolkien changing his mind we have Imrahil's words that the story of extra Elf blood flowing through the veins of the princes is internal.

'So it is said in the lore of my land'

So we can accept that there is at least one internal story of the Princes being descendant of an elf.

As for whether this was simply Tolkien changing his mind or two external stories, Christopher Tolkien seemed to favour the latter idea.

'While not impossible (merging the two stories) these explanations to save consistency seem to me less likely that that of two distinct and independent 'traditions' of the origins of the Lords of Dol Amroth'

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

... which is why, as I say above: it's one thing to chose version B as a reaction to something seemingly problematic in A, but version A was not merely a discarded idea by comparison [Tolkien rejecting A for B], and is still intended as a tale within the conceit.

In UT, the variant stories of the Elessar are said by CJRT to be on the same four page text. After the Gondolin made jewel was lost, the text reads:

In ages after there was again an Elessar, and of this two things are said, though which is true only the Wise could say, who are now gone.

Curiously, the text ends with:

The Elessar was made in Gondolin by Celebrimbor....But that passed away. But the second Elessar was made also by Celebrimbor in Eregion at the request of the Lady Galadriel.

It's difficult to see why, in light of the introduced ambiguity in the main body of the story, Tolkien would end in such a declarative fashion about which version was the truth.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As for whether this was simply Tolkien changing his mind or two external stories, Christopher Tolkien seemed to favour the latter idea.
'While not impossible (merging the two stories) these explanations to save consistency seem to me less likely that that of two distinct and independent 'traditions' of the origins of the Lords of Dol Amroth'

But that's the same in my opinion, so I'm a bit confused here. That is, if we have Tolkien changing his mind, then we have two external stories.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It's difficult to see why, in light of the introduced ambiguity in the main body of the story, Tolkien would end in such a declarative fashion about which version was the truth.

My explanation is that this 'concluding' section of the text is not a conclusion of the text proper, but an external summation with an intended revision from Tolkien regarding Celebrimbor and Enerdhil. Christopher Tolkien describes...

'Enerdhil appears in no other writing; and the concluding words of this text show that Celebrimbor was to displace him as the maker of the Elessar in Gondolin.'

And the seeming clarity that the first jool passed away could be a revision too, but I'm more inclined to think this is due to the brevity of summing up both tales. As I posted earlier, the further external factor is, in my opinion, that when Celebrimbor becomes a Feanorean he is arguably not going to remain a smith in Gondolin.

Thus if we take The Elessar as 'canon' it arguably reads better with Enerdhil anway!

In my opinion. Again to me it doesn't read like part of the text, but a summation of the two with an 'intended' change that never occurred.

[Inziladun]

I still favor the Celebrimbor version. However, returning to your question of why Olórin would have brought it to Galadriel, if she already possessed Nenya, I have an idea or two.

In the first place, it's possible Gandalf, when he arrived at the Havens in the Third Age, was coming in blind, maybe knowing little or nothing of the Rings of Power. If he'd been given the Elessar to pass to Galadriel, it might not have occurred to him to wonder why she needed it. Also, he made a point of telling her it was not intended for her sole keeping forever, but that she was to give it to a certain person in the future.
I wonder too, if the powers of the Elessar and the Three, though similar in healing properties, were nonetheless subtly different, owing to the gifts and intentions of their respective makers.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

But that's the same in my opinion, so I'm a bit confused here. That is, if we have Tolkien changing his mind, then we have two external stories.

I don't think it is since both stories are internal. The legend of the Princes being descended from an Elf is something we hear about in LOTR. It is a legend that Imrahil addresses. This is not a case of Tolkien changing his mind for me, but rather adding another version ( a more accurate one) I believe.


As for the Elessar if Gandalf had brought it in the 3rd Age then Galadriel would have had no use of it. From the way Earendil used the Elessar, it seems to me like it had similar powers to the Silmarillion. They were similar in design. The Elessar captured the light of the corrupted sun, but the Silmarillions were not only superior in make but had the pure uncorrupted light.

[Ivriniel]

I've refreshed my reading on the Elessar, after having read materials here on thread as well, found that eye opening, because I also discovered why memory encoding tends to go the way it does, by looking at materials here and books at hand. And comparing.

For the Elessar version as: Olorin chatting to Galadriel in the woods, and Olorin bringing back an item for her from the West--after an obscure name we'll never hear anywhere else 'Enerdhil' made it FA and when it passed away. Where has that occurred elsewhere (artefact return from Valinor), post FA, except for the Palantiri and for very special reason, on Numenor, nigh to the Uttermost West and for comms.

The competing version has the difficult notion of Celebrimbor in Gondolin. And the idea of a second making is, um, okay-ish in my sense. The courtship jewell for Galadriel.

I found some other items, on an aside very interesting. The idea that Melkor is somehow 'affecting' the sun from the Void! And, perhaps, that was what Tolkien meant by the change in Middle Earth and lessening of Elves and Men and the Dunedain over time?

--and--there was reference to the Elessar somehow being exempt of the taint of the One (Ring) because it was made before it! WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

There is another in-text item I cannot square. As noted above by another poster: how or why does Arwen get the jewel (or rights to it) through Celebrian?

Then I got wondering if the Elessar (doing greening/revival things) had that kind of 'radiance' effect in Gondor, upon the Dunedain of Isildur. Does this mean that Aragorn's realm was kinda being preserved longer? What of the influence on the White Tree? Did the sapling sprout because Aragorn arrived with the Elessar? And how did Gandalf know to look at Mindoluin for the new sapling?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I've refreshed my reading on the Elessar, after having read materials here on thread as well, found that eye opening, because I also discovered why memory encoding tends to go the way it does, by looking at materials here and books at hand. And comparing.

For the Elessar version as: Olorin chatting to Galadriel in the woods, and Olorin bringing back an item for her from the West--after an obscure name we'll never hear anywhere else 'Enerdhil' made it FA and when it passed away. Where has that occurred elsewhere (artefact return from Valinor), post FA, except for the Palantiri and for very special reason, on Numenor, nigh to the Uttermost West and for comms.

The competing version has the difficult notion of Celebrimbor in Gondolin. And the idea of a second making is, um, okay-ish in my sense. The courtship jewell for Galadriel.

I found some other items, on an aside very interesting. The idea that Melkor is somehow 'affecting' the sun from the Void! And, perhaps, that was what Tolkien meant by the change in Middle Earth and lessening of Elves and Men and the Dunedain over time?

--and--there was reference to the Elessar somehow being exempt of the taint of the One (Ring) because it was made before it! WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

There is another in-text item I cannot square. As noted above by another poster: how or why does Arwen get the jewel (or rights to it) through Celebrian?

Then I got wondering if the Elessar (doing greening/revival things) had that kind of 'radiance' effect in Gondor, upon the Dunedain of Isildur. Does this mean that Aragorn's realm was kinda being preserved longer? What of the influence on the White Tree? Did the sapling sprout because Aragorn arrived with the Elessar? And how did Gandalf know to look at Mindoluin for the new sapling?

I think Gandalf might have read something in the records. He thoroughly was researching the ring and maybe he came across something, which the Stewards had long forgotten. Or maybe it was one of those small things that were revealed to him by Eru when he died.

I don't think it's any great mystery as to why Arwen would inherit the jewel through her mother. Once Galadriel had use of her Ring, she would not need the Elessar so why not pass it to her daughter.

Morgoth's corruption of Middle Earth was something he did before being forced into the void and is precisely why everything outside Aman is not quite what it once was. Black magic is drawing out the essence of Morgoth to perform 'magic' and is the only kind of magic men seem to be able to use.

During Aragorn's reign Gondor was greener and more beautiful than ever so it probably did. It probably not only renewed and revitalized the flora, but also the people. I imagine there was a great baby boom during the early part of his reign. Of course Aragorn would not have the power Galadriel, let alone Earendil had with the jewel.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I think Gandalf might have read something in the records. He thoroughly was researching the ring and maybe he came across something, which the Stewards had long forgotten. Or maybe it was one of those small things that were revealed to him by Eru when he died.

Hey there Celludur

Yeah, could be--or perhaps Gandalf was (present) when the seed was planted? I'm imagining he had his eye on that ole tree? And maybe chatted to the then realmsmen to plant the seed for a rainy day. I wonder if he knew about when/why Galathilion bore a fruit. He was, after all, around when Telperion made a seed, and no doubt, this would have been one of those 'dinner table conversations' for Valinor. Some appreciation of the when, where and why the tree propagates may have been known to him, as the Maia he is.

I don't think it's any great mystery as to why Arwen would inherit the jewel through her mother. Once Galadriel had use of her Ring, she would not need the Elessar so why not pass it to her daughter.

Didn't Alatáriel give the Elessar directly to Aragorn?

Morgoth's corruption of Middle Earth was something he did before being forced into the void and is precisely why everything outside Aman is not quite what it once was. Black magic is drawing out the essence of Morgoth to perform 'magic' and is the only kind of magic men seem to be able to use.

What about the magic of Adunaic language users (the Blades of the Westernesse--barrow wights), Orthanc Stone etc, seemed to be free of 'taint' (but I get that generally, 'sorcery' was considered a black art and of Morgoth)....

and

Pukel Men magic (there are some citations I have that refer to untainted protective 'stone magic' of Pukel Men).

During Aragorn's reign Gondor was greener and more beautiful than ever so it probably did. It probably not only renewed and revitalized the flora, but also the people. I imagine there was a great baby boom during the early part of his reign. Of course Aragorn would not have the power Galadriel, let alone Earendil had with the jewel.

This is pretty interesting. I wonder what it did about lifespan matters. I also wonder how old Aragorn's kids lived. I imagine their lifespan was restored to that of, nigh, Elros (five hundred and something)

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Hey there Celludur

Yeah, could be--or perhaps Gandalf was (present) when the seed was planted? I'm imagining he had his eye on that ole tree? And maybe chatted to the then realmsmen to plant the seed for a rainy day. I wonder if he knew about when/why Galathilion bore a fruit. He was, after all, around when Telperion made a seed, and no doubt, this would have been one of those 'dinner table conversations' for Valinor. Some appreciation of the when, where and why the tree propagates may have been known to him, as the Maia he is.

Possible, but we hear that Gandalf did not go to Gondor much in that time. The Sea Kings were too proud and too strong to listen to his council.

Didn't Alatáriel give the Elessar directly to Aragorn?

Yes, but Arwen was constantly travelling between Imladris and Lothlorien. It's not that surprising for her to have left it for Aragorn there or even sent it with Elronds sons (when they travelled there before the Fellowship left). Even at Rivendell Aragorn seemed aware he was going to be given the Elessar, since he request that Bilbo put a line about the stone in his song.

What about the magic of Adunaic language users (the Blades of the Westernesse--barrow wights), Orthanc Stone etc, seemed to be free of 'taint' (but I get that generally, 'sorcery' was considered a black art and of Morgoth)....

The Numenoreans are a special case, because they live on a Blessed Island apart from the world Morogth had tainted. They also are masters of science and much of what we call 'magic' is just an example of how sophisticated they were. They also were blessed by the Valar with gifts that man seemed to have enjoyed before they fell such as telepathic communication and a freedom from illness. That apart the nobles in Numenor were descendants of Melian and therefore could perform magic. The truly magical artifacts we see could be that divine power still shining through.

and

Pukel Men magic (there are some citations I have that refer to untainted protective 'stone magic' of Pukel Men).

The Pukel Men is a strange one. We really don't know and there are some dark suggestions that they were originally captured by Morgoth and experimented on. Really it's impossible for us to know and we can only speculate.

This is pretty interesting. I wonder what it did about lifespan matters. I also wonder how old Aragorn's kids lived. I imagine their lifespan was restored to that of, nigh, Elros (five hundred and something)

No I don't think any of Aragorn's descendants would have a lifespan even approaching his 210 years. Aragorn firmly states he is the Last Numenorean King. The long life Numenor had was not just due to the purity of their blood, but the way they adapted the Elvish lifestyle.

However, the biggest and main factor was that Numenor was free from the taint of Morgoth.The Numnoreans were living in a virtually Morgoth free environment unlike those of Gondor. This is something they could never get back.

That being said I think you are right in some part and for a little one while the people of Gondor may have enjoyed a small renaissance in longevity. We know that Faramir is the longest lived Steward since Mardil, but this is still only 120 and a far cry from the days of Elros. I would imagine that other noble families may have started reaching 100 on a regular basis, but nothing close to the Gondorians of old let alone those of Elros' day. Eomer for instance only reached 90.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Possible, but we hear that Gandalf did not go to Gondor much in that time. The Sea Kings were too proud and too strong to listen to his council.

my knowledge for Istari timelines, when they arrived, the King in power, who that King courted and so on are not good atm. I'd need to do some super-sleuth work to make some inferences...

Yes, but Arwen was constantly travelling between Imladris and Lothlorien. It's not that surprising for her to have left it for Aragorn there or even sent it with Elronds sons (when they travelled there before the Fellowship left). Even at Rivendell Aragorn seemed aware he was going to be given the Elessar, since he request that Bilbo put a line about the stone in his song.

I'd given that some thought, and had decided that, should this idea apply, then Celebrian would have been in Middle Earth (when) Aragorn was betrothed to Arwen in Lothlorien. I don't have enough recall of dates to know when Celebrian was waylaid by Orcs in the Misty Mountains, when Elladan and Elrohir rescued her, and then when she departed for the West.

But--Celebrian would have needed to have been in Middle Earth when Aragorn was about 50 (unless she smelled out Arwen and Aragorn much sooner, when Aragorn was "newly to manhood", i.e. about 21? in Rivendell when he called Arwen 'Tinuviel'. I'm not sure she was--or was she?

About Numenorean 'magic'. I read somewhere it wasn't 'elfy magic' but a variant, was it about 'Lore' that I recall, versus a magick-y word. The contrast really stuck with me at the time, as it opened up a dimension about magical expression in Middle Earth I had not ever fathomed. But for the life of me, do you think I have ever been able to find the citation--ever--again and not for having tried!

Does anyone know this material, here? (I might start a thread)

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I still favor the Celebrimbor version. However, returning to your question of why Olórin would have brought it to Galadriel, if she already possessed Nenya, I have an idea or two.

In the first place, it's possible Gandalf, when he arrived at the Havens in the Third Age, was coming in blind, maybe knowing little or nothing of the Rings of Power. If he'd been given the Elessar to pass to Galadriel, it might not have occurred to him to wonder why she needed it. Also, he made a point of telling her it was not intended for her sole keeping forever, but that she was to give it to a certain person in the future. I wonder too, if the powers of the Elessar and the Three, though similar in healing properties, were nonetheless subtly different, owing to the gifts and intentions of their respective makers.

Hmm, my problem with these is that Galadriel appears to desire preservation power in the first place, and then Olorin offers her the stone.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No I don't think any of Aragorn's descendants would have a lifespan even approaching his 210 years. Aragorn firmly states he is the Last Numenorean King. The long life Numenor had was not just due to the purity of their blood, but the way they adapted the Elvish lifestyle.

I dunno. Arwen was Elros's niece and so has about 1/4 to 1/8th of his genome. And more elfy blood than Elros. I'd have thought those two factors, add in Aragorn's pure blood, then the Elessar might mean some restoration of longevity.

The Elessar, as I read it, also 'filters out' the taint of Morgoth in that influence upon the sun. I wonder what this meant for Gondorian citizens under its radiance. Galadriel used it as a lesser power to Nenya for the same reason. Add in that stuff about it being 'free of the One' and you have a pretty impressive Elf Stone...

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I don't think it is since both stories are internal. The legend of the Princes being descended from an Elf is something we hear about in LOTR. It is a legend that Imrahil addresses. This is not a case of Tolkien changing his mind for me, but rather adding another version ( a more accurate one) I believe.

Well that much is internal, yes, that there is a legend of mixed Elvish blood is surely so.

But that alone doesn't necessarily mean that two competing [and never published by Tolkien himself] versions of the history of Dol Amroth, despite that both can be connected in some way to this legend, are intended to be two, purposeful variations within the subcreated world.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well that much is internal, yes, that there is a legend of mixed Elvish blood is surely so.

But that alone doesn't necessarily mean that two competing [and never published by Tolkien himself] versions of the history of Dol Amroth, despite that both can be connected in some way to this legend, are intended to be two, purposeful variations within the subcreated world.

Well Christopher Tolkien has seen all the notes and he seems to think they were conflicting 'traditions'. This to me suggest that he believes his father intended for both stories to be 'traditions' that were handed down in Dol Amroth.

3,000 years is a long time and lots of lore had been lost in Gondor.

I dunno. Arwen was Elros's niece and so has about 1/4 to 1/8th of his genome. And more elfy blood than Elros. I'd have thought those two factors, add in Aragorn's pure blood, then the Elessar might mean some restoration of longevity.

The Elessar, as I read it, also 'filters out' the taint of Morgoth in that influence upon the sun. I wonder what this meant for Gondorian citizens under its radiance. Galadriel used it as a lesser power to Nenya for the same reason. Add in that stuff about it being 'free of the One' and you have a pretty impressive Elf Stone...

Yet all the other Numenoreans had no elf blood and their lives were extended too. If we are to except the story of Imrazor and Mithrellas then the additional blood of Mithrellas really in the grand scheme of things did not change much either.

Without the gift of Numenor (a land freed from Morgoth's taint and blessed by the Valar) the Numenoreans would never reach that height again no matter how pure or loyal they were.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmm, my problem with these is that Galadriel appears to desire preservation power in the first place, and then Olorin offers her the stone.

Indeed, which is why I think the powers of Nenya and the Elessar might have some differences. Perhaps Galadriel used the latter to augment the former.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Well Christopher Tolkien has seen all the notes and he seems to think they were conflicting 'traditions'. This to me suggest that he believes his father intended for both stories to be 'traditions' that were handed down in Dol Amroth.

3,000 years is a long time and lots of lore had been lost in Gondor.

It is a long time, but it's up to JRR Tolkien to decide what has been lost, or might have become confused, within any given time period, within the subcreated world.

The use of quotation marks ['traditions'] by Christopher Tolkien is interesting here: does he mean he thinks they are internal, or that they are different traditions, full stop, even if they might be intended as in-story traditions? We've no way of knowing that at the moment...

... but in any case even Christopher Tolkien cannot be sure here.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Indeed, which is why I think the powers of Nenya and the Elessar might have some differences. Perhaps Galadriel used the latter to augment the former.

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age? The Three were already powerful, and made for preservation.

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age?

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

Was it the case that her conversation with Olorin preceded the peak in assay of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain's lore? I took UFT (I don't have it here atm, but I can check again), on this point (about the Elessar/with Olorin version), to be a conversation with Olorin sometime before she had Nenya.

However -- and here's the timing thing again -- as we know, Cirdan gave Gandalf a Ring. So, I need to check UFT again, but it seemed to me that in that first version of the Elessar, Tolkien had not had Nenya on Galadriel's finger (which again goes to what I read in Galin's earliest post, upstream. He noted that this meant a 'visit from Olorin to his mate, Alatariel (as he would have known her, not as Galadriel), *before* he was Istari-ified.....

awkward, but necessary to resolve the problem....

[Galin]

Well that's the point in question: if it's Gandalf the Istar it's about 1,000 years into the Third Age, or later... but Nerwende Artanis -- with [in theory] Nenya on her finger -- desires unfading grass, for example? She says this to Olorin before he reveals he has the Elessar.

I don't know why the Olorin idea is necssarily awkward though, as Tolkien himself even speaks to this Maia visiting Middle-earthers very early on, and provides the means. Unless you think the idea awkward even if it's from the uthor, I guess.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well that's the point in question: if it's Gandalf the Istar it's about 1,000 years into the Third Age, or later... but Nerwende Artanis -- with [in theory] Nenya on her finger -- desires unfading grass, for example? She says this to Olorin before he reveals he has the Elessar.

those darned elves and their lawns! they just can't stand seeing their gardens wilt in summer...

I don't know why the Olorin idea is necssarily awkward though, as Tolkien himself even speaks to this Maia visiting Middle-earthers very early on, and provides the means. Unless you think the idea awkward even if it's from the uthor, I guess.

I saw what you wrote about the emphasis on author and 'Olorin' and that meaning he was not yet istari-ified. It's awkward because of how hard lined the Tale of the Years is about the arrival of the Istari, giving the impression of 'okay, now go', and 'not before'. Add to that all the stuff about the preparatory discussions the Maia chosen had with the Valar pre-departure. Gandalf specifically says he feared Sauron and so, I think it was Manwe said that made Gandalf an even better choice. (this was not in UT, but in other books I have at hand, I can quote if you like).

The 'vibe', then *smiles* (vibe....how clearly argued Ivriniel hahaha) is about why on earth, a Maia would keep ties with ole Galadriel, some several (thousand) years, long after she took off to Middle Earth.

I know the Maia like Olorin walked, sometimes clad as Elves and sometimes as invisible spirits in the West. But? What--Olorin pops over the Middle Earth, becomes corporeal as a, what, elf? It just all feels wrong....

[Galin]

But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here.

'That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.'

So why not visit Nerwen and so on, as Olorin, and for his own [and Yavanna's] reasons. The collective Istari mission to combat Sauron is in the future from this perspective.

Also, I'm not sure Olorin the Maia had certainly known Galadriel in Aman, as a friend.

It's possible, and certainly possible that he knew of her obviously, but no former friendship is stated that I'm aware of, and the suggestion that Olorin walked among Elves unseen, or as one of them [blending into the background? or becoming friendly with the Elves, or some Elves?], doesn't exactly necessarily speak to making friends with every, even notable Elf.

Not that you said otherwise.

I can see the thinking here, I mean it's Galadriel, but it's one of those things which is unsaid as far as I know.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here.

hang on am home now, lemme eat my dinner and hava nutha read of the text....back soon

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Let's not forget that the incarnate bodies of the Istari were, as much as anything, disguises. Only Cirdan knew what they were or whence they came, at least at first. Even when Elrond and Galadriel picked up on it, as I'm sure eventually they did, they still wouldn't have been, like, "Hey, Olorin! Thought it was you. Great costume, dude." Maiar in their native form could assume any shape they liked, and we have seen that Olorin preferred to be incognito when dealing with the Elves.

[Galin]

While you're reading I'll add: the timing in the essay is a bit unclear imy opinion, unless you or somone can clarify it better. Galadriel is in Greenwood, and this possibly goes hand in hand with the first edition passage that Celeborn, in the Second Age, established a realm in the South of Greenwood [later revised].

The 'conception' is thus the interpretation that we have Olorin here, not Gandalf as an Istar, and this would be well before the collective choosing of the Istari and so on. And Olorin gives the Elessar stone with mention of Yavanna. I don't recall any indication here [necessarily] of an Istari-related mission...

... but what we do have is what I and others have wondered about already: a Galadriel who desires flowers and grass that do not die, and, considering that she has one of the Three Great Rings of preservation power when the Istari appear, this does not easily fall in line with a time after the Istari arrived in Middle-earth.

In other words the conception is not explicitly noted by Tolkien, but for me it does not seem awkward, especially given my quote from JRRT about Olorin visiting folk in Middle-earth [outside of and before the Istari mission]...

... and no more awkward than Melian coming to Middle-earth in a physical form, for example. And if one objects to Tolkien's conception from WPP about the Valar and Maiar visting Middle-earth, we could even 'invent' a ship for Olorin in this period.