Balrog size

[Perethil]

this is probably an old topic, but - how big were balrogs?
gandalf wrestled with the balrog in the water. also, Hurin and Feanor had fights with them so cant be THAT big...

[Mayla Took]

You know! I have thought of that aspect also. But the term "wrestel" is relitive. It could simply mean fight or stuggle. But did Gandalf find his staff in the shadow after he fell? I didn't understand that part.

[Frahhamn]

for some strange reason, i thought that Gandalf's staff was broken... and he was given another with his new cloak.

that's what happened. the staff broke on the bridge.

[Jjudvven]

I always thought that the Balrogs were huge!
Maybe I'm wrong.

[Thingol]

During Glorfindel's fight with the Balrog in The Fall of Gondolin in The HoME series it says that the Balrog was well nigh twice Glorfindel's size. Assuming Glorfindel is around 6 ft. that would make the Balrog around 12 feet with a vast shadow surrounding it. The Balrogs were much less powerful when Tolkien wrote the Fall of Gondolin, but there is no indication, as far as I know, that he changed the stature of the Balrogs along with their power. Because Durin's Bane spent alot of time underground, I've always thought that he was little shorter, probably 8-10 feet, thats just my personal opinion though. If the Balrog was indeed tremendous he probably wouldn't have been able to stand on the Bridge of Khazud-Dum and he probably would have just swept Gandalf off the bridge with his sword stroke.

[Mayla Took]

Ha ha! Thats a good point! I had never thought of it that way! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

YEEEEESSSSS!! Balrog size is one of my favorite axes to grind.
[picks up axe and starts to grind it]
I too have serious problems with gigantic 50' Balrogs. As Thingol said, the Balrog could not have been gigantic or else it would not have been able to exist in Khazad-dum for thousands and thousands of years. Case in point, the Chamber of Mazarbul. In the book the way that the room is described as being a rather small chamber, there is no way that a gigantic Balrog would have been able to even fit through the door much less stand up or even crawl around in the room.
Next case in point. If the Balrog was gigantic and stepped on the Bridge...well no wonder the Bridge gave way. Gandalf didn't cast a spell, the Bridge just succumed to the tremendous weight of the Balrog that had just stormed onto it.
Now I realise that there were undoubtedly halls and passages that were big enough for such a Balrog to live in, but I find it exceedingly hard to swallow that such a big Balrog would have been able to live in only the largest halls.
Next case in point. When Feanor was surrounded by Balrogs, if they were so monsterously tall why did they have so much trouble killing him? Why didn't they just stomp on him and be done with it? The same thing goes for Fingon in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Glorfindel's case would also fall under this category.
Well, anyway you probably get the idea.
[puts down the remains of his axe]
I guess the reason why I have such strong opinions on this is because there is a lot of artwork (and a movie) out there that depicts these mammoth Balrogs and I just think that's totally unfounded from the books.

[Thingol]

I thought the movie did a pretty good job with the Balrog. The whole thing seemed to be wrapped in shadow, it might have been a wee bit too big when it drew itself up though. There is alot of art work out there that does portray the Balrogs as huge, and like Kuruharan, this also bothers me. A sperate question; does it ever mention how big Sauron and Melkor were, in their incarnate forms that is? Sauron lost the ability to shapeshift into a fair form after the fall of Numenor, but was he still able to change his form into different evil personas? I didn't really like the movie portrayl of Sauron as a rather large man in a suit of dark armour. I've always pictured him more as wrapped in shadow like the Balrog and less like Melkor or the Nazgul, who were basically in the forms of men.

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[obloquy]

Don't forget that when Ecthelion 'leapt' at Gothmog and drove the point of his helmet into him, he hit at the chest. Though not conclusive, it's possibly a clue. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Elendur]

But you have to remember: "White elves can't jump."

Seriously though, I would imagine that a Balrog was at most 15 feet tall. The Maiar and even Valar that were in Arda never seem to have made themselves into very huge shapes when they took bodily form. I guess there was some kind of limitation on them that only allowed their earthly bodies to be as big as their spirit was powerful. I think of it like if a Maia tried to take on a 30 foot shape it just wouldn't have that kind of power to fit well into it.

And you have to realize that a Balrog would seem much bigger than it actually was. So all in all that is why I say 15 feet at most.

[Elenhin]

In a draft of "The Bridge of Khazad-dum" Tolkien wrote that the Balrog was "no more than man-sized". A bit later he wrote a note to himself: "Alter description of the Balrog. ... It felt larger than it looked." In the final version the Balrog had this great shadow about it, and it definitely made it seem larger - but its body could not be plainly seen, and it probably wasn't much larger than man-sized. I'd say that 10 feet is the maximum for a Balrog's height.

[Perethil]

another point, i guess, would be that maiar could make themselves look bigger, using shadows... well at least the balrog and gandalf could. as far as i know, not all of them could shapeshift tho, apart from those skilled in sorcery eg sauron

[Kuruharan]

I would say that for a 6' elf, it would be considered leaping for him to implant the spike of his helmet into a 15' balrog's chest. (Even though I still think that 15' is a bit much, but I'll go with it for a minute, it's better than 50').
One of the things that I hear over and over again when I'm having this argument is the line where, "The Balrog drew itself up to a great height." I think that this is where the idea for huge balrogs comes from. But I don't think that "great height" implies the size of an airliner. Certainly, when compared to the size of the hall 15' probably does not seem like a "great height." However, lets remember who the balrog was confronting. Gandalf was not extraordinarily tall. To somebody who is 5'8"-6' (just for instance, I don't know how tall Gandalf was) 15' would be a great height advantage for the demon confronting him. So, thusly, you still preserve the meaning of "great height" without ballooning the balrog up to unreasonable size.
Aside from where Tolkien said that Sauron was taller than the average man, but not gigantic, I don't think the height of Sauron's physical form was ever addressed. I was rather ambivalent to the portrayal of Sauron in the movie. I did not dislike it so much as it just did not fit my mental picture of him.
Oddly enough, I have a pretty clear picture in my head of what Sauron looked like, it's just kinda hard to describe it. It's sort of a large sorcerous figure in very large black, red, and purple robes. He is wearing a thin golden circlet on his head. He's clean shaven and has his hair cut short. (I don't know why, my picture of him always does). The most noticeable thing about him is his terrible burning eyes. He's not wearing massive amounts of armor, but I never really think about him going into battle much. Come to think of it he probably was wearing armor when he fought against the Last Alliance. He probably did not go wading into hand to hand combat with no protection at all.

[The Mirrorball Man]

It's funny... The first time I read The Lord of the Rings, I imagined the Balrog as man-sized. But since then, my mental image has constantly evolved, and now I'd say that Durin's Bane was at least 3 meters tall.

[zifnab]

I have a hard time thinking that Blarogs were average/human/elf height. I think 10-15 feet sounds more accurate.
BTW-How big was Ungoliant. She grew to a rather great height an size after she drank the Gold and Silver trees of Valmar(Sorry I forgot their names), and sucked the Wells of Vadra dry, then eat the gems from Formenos. But she challenged Morgoth for the Silmarils,which he refused to give her. And probably would have bested him, if not for his anguished cry which alerted the Balrogs and destroyed her webs(which had surrounded Morgoth), and beat her back with their whips of flame. And she fled. Now it says that after she had sucked the trees and the well dry she:

swelled to a shape so vast and hideous that Melkor was afraid.

And then after she had eaten the gems:

Huger and darker yet grew Ungoliant.

Anyways the point Im tring to make is if she was so huge and so feirce then why would several man-sized Balrogs drive her away, She had pretty much bested Morgoth, and Balrogs even had some touble with elf-lords and the such. It just seems to me that the Balrogs would/should have been bigger then human size.

Now, I dont if that makes any sense, but in my mind it makes perfect sense! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Eldar14]

I say that Balrogs are man sized. Just like the Istari and Sauron, they Maiar, so their physical forms I think should be at least similar. Also, I say that Balrogs look about like elves too (not fair though) They may be a bit bigger, but not very much bigger. Also, for the issue of what Sauron looks like, I think he looks like an evil elf, if you get my idea. However, both have a type of Aura around them that makes them seem impressive and big. One would notice one walking down the street, but they wouldn't really know why (one would just think the are big and impressive)

[ February 03, 2002: Message edited by: Eldar14 ]

[Kuruharan]

As for Morgoth, I think that the same 'taller than man, but not gigantic' rule would apply to him as well.
Since he started off as one of the Valar and was the head of the whole evil operation I have always thought that he would appear physically bigger and stronger than Sauron or the Balrogs. However, this can be taken too far. I've seen paintings of Morgoth where he is the size of a skyscraper. Yet again this brings up the problem of how did he move around inside Angband or get out the front door to fight Fingolfin. On the other hand he apparently did try to stomp on Fingolfin, and that would explain why Fingolfin was unable to cut off Morgoth's foot, if Morgoth's foot was bigger than Fingolfin.
But seriously, probably about a 15' Morgoth is a pretty realistic guess. Which if you follow my line of reasoning would put the cap on Sauron and the Balrogs at about 15', if not less (I tend to think less).
If you were the Dark Lord you would not want your minions to be more physically impressive than you, right? That's sort of what happened in the Ungoliant situation. She grew much more powerful than Morgoth, had pretty much beaten him, until he was rescued by his balrogs.
Perhaps Ungoliant is the creature that I imagine to have eventually reached being about 50' tall, so that she would be able to so easily defeat Morgoth. Why then was she so easily cowed by the Balrogs? Well, for one thing all of them were together at once. Assuming that there were seven, which I know that not everyone does, that is seven nasty 'demons of might' with nasssty flaming whips slashing at her beautiful webs and then at her. I kind of imagine Ungoliant to be rather cowardly at the best of times, and I doubt that she was immune to the power of terror that the Balrogs could put into the hearts of their enemies.
So Ungoliant, seeing that she is being assailed by at least seven 'demons of might' and one now freed and very ticked 'Dark Enemy of the World,' even though she was 50' tall, I hardly blame her for turning tail and bolting. She was outnumbered (even if they were much smaller than she was) and her enemies were armed with fire which had rather easily destroyed her webs and could probably do the same to her.

Hmm, this got rather longer than I'd intended so I'll stop now.

[Elendur]

I dont think you can use Ungoliant overpowering Morgoth as an example. The power of the Silmarill made her much more powerful than she could have ever been alone. Without that power she could not have taken control of Morgoth. And taking on multiple Balrogs, even if they are smaller than you, would be impossible.

Just to put a cap on this, I think at most Ungoliant would have only grown 20 feet tall.

[obloquy]

You're all forgetting something: size is relative. The Maiar and the Valar were around (and were able to take bodies) before the Eruhini ever awoke. Imagine it from a perspective other than your 5-foot-plus body. Objectively speaking, is 15 feet really all that big? With trees, mountains, and the oceans as your measuring sticks, how terribly big is even 50 feet? The Ainur could assume whatever bodily form they wished. I think that the only likely limitations they had (after the awakening of the Children) was that they had to interact with incarnates, and what good would it do to be so enormous anyway?

Why didn't Melkor just take a 300-foot-tall body and annihilate the Elves with one swift kick? I'd rationalize this point by saying that at the time when he took his form, he was not as interested in nihilistic destruction as he was craving to dominate and rule all. By the time he was absolutely mad, he was too diminished and bound to his hroa to get huge and stomp about.

You're probably right about the body size relating somewhat to the spirit's power, in that taking on a physical form would require the fea to control a certain amount of physical properties constantly. Of course, this doesn't put a whole lot of restrictions on powers like the Ainur. If an Elf's fea had the 'power' to control a 6-foot body, a being like Melkor would have virtually limitless options. That said, a more reasonable body (though I wouldn't say Melkor would have settled for anything less than any of the other Valar) would probably be the most efficient, concentrating the being's power and requiring less of the constant effort necessary for maintaining control over the physical matter of the hroa.

This is a topic that, as far as I know, was never addressed by the Professor, so we can really only speculate. I figure the bad dudes would have chosen a nice balance between appropriately menacing and potently concentrated. In any case, that's just my take on it.

[ February 04, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Kuruharan]

Curse my dumb ISP's server! Down most of the day, couldn't post. Oh well, I'm back!

Why didn't Melkor just take a 300-foot-tall body and annihilate the Elves with one swift kick? I'd rationalize this point by saying that at the time when he took his form, he was not as interested in nihilistic destruction as he was craving to dominate and rule all. By the time he was absolutely mad, he was too diminished and bound to his hroa to get huge and stomp about.

It depends on when you think that Morgoth became more interested in nihilistic destruction rather than domination. When he visited Ungoliant, "he put on the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after." So after the visit to Ungoliant he never changed forms again. Yet, destroying the Two Trees seems rather nihilistic, simply ruining things for the sake of ruining them. And he was in the same form then that he was in ever after.
It was obviously after the encounter where he is rescued by the balrogs that he lost his power to shape shift. It seems that on such a mission of destruction, where he was throughly protected by the Unlight, it would have been advantageous to him to assume as powerful a form as possible. I personally choose to think that he did.

If an Elf's fea had the 'power' to control a 6-foot body, a being like Melkor would have virtually limitless options.

Not exactly, by that time he had lost his ability to change his forms.
Although, on the other hand, it does not say specifically when he lost that power, just a vague line about how he "soon" lost that power forever, soooo, maybe he could adjust his height at will?
Oh well, I've rambled on long enough. I'll be quiet and let somebody else construct a case if they like.

[Frahhamn]

strangely, i've always believed Balrogs to be a terribly large and formidable enemy. perhaps my conclusions have erred.

[Jjudvven]

I don't think it ever specifies exactly when he lost that power, but I remember reading the, 'Soon he was to lose this power forever...'. Does anyone know when exactly he did lose it?

[Kuruharan]

strangely, i've always believed Balrogs to be a terribly large and formidable enemy. perhaps my conclusions have erred.

I don't think that anybody is saying that Balrogs are not terrible and formidable enemies. An argument that they are not formidable enemies would be pretty hard to sustain.
There is a question over exactly how large they were (or are, there might still be some around you know).

[Jjudvven]

The books really only says that they are HUGE and dangerous. It doesn't give a specific size.

[lomion]

I don't think Morogoth would be worried about the size of his minions. After all power does'nt necessarily mean size. He had dragons helping too, and I'm sure they were much larger than him.
As for Ungoliant, seems 4 or 5 balrogs(fire demons) would be enough too cause pain and discomfort to make her leave.
Balrog size? They probably were larger than men. Beorn was a huge man(when in human form), surely they were bigger.
I never thought about the size of the doors!
10, 12 feet MAX, maybe smaller.
I'm an artist, I've done many drawings of LOTR. I always consider all clues carefully. Thanks for the input. It helps alot. Keep 'em coming!

[Rhudladion]

Couldn't the Balrog's shadow have been enormous, say 50 feet, and his actual pysical body only 8-10 feet? This would allow him to draw himself up in a "huge" way, but still be "small" enough to manuver within Moria.

Also, existing in Moria doesn't necessarily entail small size. We don't know whether or not the passages in the abyss are 20 feet high/wide, and there may just be a passage that large leading to the upper halls. Plus if his shadow was huge and his physical body not so huge, his mass would not be that great (assuming shadow has no mass), and he'd be able to stand on the bridge without crumbling it.

Furthermore, it seems to me that JRRT was more concerned at this point in the story with giving the reader a SENSE of the Balrog's size and by describing how large he LOOKED (not actually was). So, again, shadow could have been 50 feet and body still 8/10/15 feet.

...and another thing: Some folks here have suggested that IF the Balrog was huge (30-50 feet), then it could have wasted Gandalf or, as I have said, it would have crushed the bridge. First of all, we're talking Gandalf here. I mean if we have to push the Balrog's size down to 8-10 feet to make him handleable by Gandalf, then it seems we have to view a cave troll as mpossible for old G to handle. Secondly, this bridge wasn't made by Hobbits. It was Dwarf work, and I think we all know how strong that is!

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Rhudladion ]

[zifnab]

Originally posted by Elendur:
<STRONG>I dont think you can use Ungoliant overpowering Morgoth as an example. The power of the Silmarill made her much more powerful than she could have ever been alone. Without that power she could not have taken control of Morgoth. And taking on multiple Balrogs, even if they are smaller than you, would be impossible.
</STRONG>

Why not? I will give a weak example/comparision, Ungoliant facing multiple balrogs would be similar to say Aragron taking on multiple Ring-Wraiths. The Balrogs together were more powerful then Ungoliant, and the Ring-wraiths together are more powerful then Aragorn. Aragorn with skill,luck and courage took care of his ringwraith problems. Why couldn't Ungoliant take care of her's. No I know you can't really compare those two together, I am only suggesting.

If Ungoliant was at that time much more powerful than Morgoth, then one can assume she was much more powerful than several Balrogs. Who really knows if she could have bested them or would have been destroyed, she fled for her own reasons. Im not trying to suggest that she was more powerful.

I also agree with Rhudladion saying that there shadow could possible fool or frighten a person into believing that the Balrogs were indeed larger than what their are. But I assume that Ungoliant already knew how big a Balrog was. And what to expect.


Not to get of the topic, but the point I was trying to make was...Even if Ungoliant was 20ft.(as you say, I disagree, I would think more about 30), then why would she run from several man-sized horny dudes with a little firey whips. Now I know those whips where very powerful and so were the Balrogs(Fire demons), but she was too darnit! I think they frightened her away with more than just their whips, their formable size and power probably had a good deal to do with it. Now Im not trying to say who was the biggest, strongest, toughest villian/evil monster around. I am just trying to relay what I think onto this forum(And I am having one heck of a time). I still think Balrogs 10-15ft. sounds more accurate. I do not think them to be 20 or 25 feet that would be to large, they would simple crush anything and everything in their path. I think Morgoth wanted an opponant for his enemies that would frighten but still would have more power(much more) then an average elf/man, instead of them being to large and powerful in which they would destroy the whole of M-E.

[Jjudvven]

Who cares how big they were? They were powerful and large, but it never says EXACTLY how big they are. IT doesn't particularly matter really. They were good enough to get the job done.

[Yaish]

I made an arguement about Balrog size in one of the 'wings' threads. Going by LOTR references in Moria we can get a clue.

While they are fleeing the orcs a "great fissure had opened" which was later bridged by slabs of stone carried by trolls. How big a slab could a troll carry? I doubt anything longer than 15 ft or so, and sufficiently wide and thick to serve as a bridge. So we can guess the chasm less than 15 ft wide. Then it says later that the Balrog leapt the fissure "with a great rush". If it was so huge, why not step across? It seems it needed to make a running leap to cross the fissure. From a running leap a normal fit human can clear 6-8 ft easily, so given that the balrog was "man-shape maybe, yet greater" we can guess about twice as big for twice as long a leap. So 12ft about?
Then later the balrog actually stands on the bridge, which is described as "narrow, slender, and built for enemies to pass single file". Guess about 3 ft, or roughly shoulder width then? A 12 ft Balrog could stand on this, yet nothing much larger would find purchase for its feet.
Then when the balrog and Gandalf clashed swords, "the wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, then again stood still"
Now Maia or not, Gandalf is restricted to the limitations of his human body. That would include mass and inertia. I think anything much bigger than a 12 ft balrog would have simply swept Gandalf off the bridge with his blow.
Next we have the scene where the Balrogs whip is "dragging him to the brink". Gandalf "grasped vainly at the stone" clearly showing he was being dragged slowly, yet surely by the balrogs weight. By cube square law for a doubling in dimensions you get a quadruple in volume. A 12ft Balrog would have weighed about 800 lbs (given a 6 ft man at 200). Anything much heavier than that would simply have dragged Gandalf over without any hesitation.

My two pennies worth.

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Yaish ]

[Jjudvven]

That is a good argument. It sounds valid.

[zifnab]

I guess you do care, huh Jjudvven!
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Rhudladion]

It sounds like a good argument, but If I was running fast as if to confront a foe and there was a 3 foot gap before me, I would be leaping over the fissure "with a great rush", though I could probably leap across a 6 foot gap. My point is, leaping "with a great rush" does not necessarily mean that the gap was great.

Also, and again, the Balrog may have had great size in shadow and fire, without being too massive to stand on the bridge.

Furthermore, the mathematics are convincing, unless you're talking about a wizard...oh wait...we are.

Just stirring the fire...

[Mister Underhill]

And you used to accuse me of fuzzy math, BW! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Trying to apply the laws of physics to a wizard engaged in a duel or guess the mass of a spirit of flame and shadow is fun but speculative at best. But I didn’t post just to rain on the parade – something jumped out at me while glancing over Gandalf’s account of his struggle with the Balrog. Why would Durin’s Bane (who knew all “the secret ways of Khazad-dûm”) flee “to the highest peak” of the Dwarven mansions – unless he thought he had a shot at making a flying escape? Wouldn’t he just be hopelessly cornering himself otherwise? If unable to fly, wouldn’t he have done better to try to race Gandalf to a conventional exit so as to make his getaway?

Why didn’t he fly away, then? Gandalf was close on his heels, and smote him with lightning during their battle – not exactly optimum flying conditions. Eventually the wings became so battle-damaged that Gandalf was able to throw him down to his ruin.

Now that’s fuel for the fire!
[img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[Rhudladion]

I think Gandalf is actually a Balrog. He and the other Balrog were just fooling on the bridge, but when his buddy pulled him into the abyss, Gandalf got ****ed and beat him down. In his fear, the other Balrog escaped and fled, which turned into a competitive race to the top of the mountain. As Gandalf came to the top he realized that he had been beaten, and became so angry that he exploded, sending his Balrog friend plummiting to a fiery death, and himself back to the Valar for a new body. Hence Gandalf the White, Nazgul's Bane!

Whatta ya think?

[Mister Underhill]

*sigh*

I got vision and the rest of the world is wearin' bifocals.

[Rhudladion]

Just jokin' Mista Undahill!

[Mister Underhill]

Me too, Rhud!

[Kuruharan]

I don't think Morogoth would be worried about the size of his minions. After all power does'nt necessarily mean size. He had dragons helping too, and I'm sure they were much larger than him.

That is an excellent point! I was having a total brain spasm and forgetting about dragons! {hits self in the head, wake up Kuruharan}

Couldn't the Balrog's shadow have been enormous, say 50 feet, and his actual pysical body only 8-10 feet?

Absolutely. But I was just talking about his physical body. I think that an observer would be able to tell the difference between the actual body and the shadow. I think that the body would look more substantial, if you understand me. And about the balrog living in Moria if he was so huge, as I said in a rather garbled fashion before, I just find it very implausible that the balrog would have lived for centuries in a place where he could only move around in the largest of the passages and halls.

Even if Ungoliant was 20ft.(as you say, I disagree, I would think more about 30), then why would she run from several man-sized horny dudes with a little firey whips.

Because she was outnumbered 8-1 and they were all coming from different directions at once. It's hard to fight against 3-1 odds, much harder to fight against 8-1. Although I don't think that Balrogs were mearly man sized. I think that 12-15 ft. is a reasonable guess, but I do think that Ungoliant was much larger than them by that point. Even as powerful as she was, I don't think that she could cope with the numbers facing her.

Mister Underhill-I was beginning to wonder how long it would be before somebody brought up the deadly B-wings question.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Jjudvven]

Yeah, that question seems to come up on every Tolkien website... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Mister Underhill]

I can't resist firing off the occasional salvo when the opportunity presents itself.