Orcish Code of Honour??

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

The general impression one gets of Orcs is that they are selfish, scheming, crude, and completely expendable in battle. A minor orcish argument could result in death. Why then would they 'have been known to travel far to pursue and enemy, especially if they have a fallen captain to avenge.' Was this some kind of code of honour, found among the more noble breeds of goblin? But orcs aren't noble. I would hardly imagine that they would bother avenging a fallen captain; just sling the body to one side and replace him.

[Kalimac]

Very good question. I'd never gotten the impression that Orcs were loyal to anything other than their own appetites.

For "avenging a fallen captain" it probably depends on the situation. While it's difficult to see an Orc pursuing an enemy solely out of loyalty to a dead captain ("You killed my Shagrat. Prepare to die") it's easier to see them using the dead captain as a pretext of some sort, for example it's easier to see an Orcish raiding party nicking a few horses off of the Rohirrim, all the while snarling about avenging their fallen comrades who were killed by Eomer and Co. The only thing is that it seems like a lot of trouble to go through for no reason; it's not as if Rohan and the Orcs have some sort of diplomatic relationship where this sort of pretext can be used as political leverage.

There is one situation where it's easy to see them avenging a fallen captain, and that would be in cases of infighting. If one of the Rohirrim kills the captain of a band of Orcs, the Orcs would probably, as you said, just push him said, engage in a little scrapping to elect their new captain, and go on as before. But in a case like that of Gorbag and Shagrat, where you have two rival Orc companies fighting with each other, it seems believable that one of the deceased Gorbag's company might try to do in Shagrat. Not to avenge Gorbag, but to protect himself, since any of Gorbag's subordinates would probably not fare too well under Shagrat's command. It would be an act of simple self-protection, but the immediate reason for it would be the captain's death, so in that case you could, at a stretch, refer to it as avenging a dead captain even though that would be more of a side effect than anything.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

That's not really avenging your captain, though, is it? That's just selfishness and clan competition. Actually going out from your base in hordes to find and kill a group of people because they killed your captain isn't something that would come naturally to an orc.

There must be something else... I don't think they'd pretend, because there'd be no point, as you've said. Perhaps they regard the killers of their captain as a common threat? A group of men attacking some orcs, for example, would probably direct all stabs toward the leader that they could. The captain then dead and the assailants fleeing, the orcs would not feel sad about the captain's demise at all. But it would make them angry. An ordinary rank-and-file member of the orc band is completely expendable; the captain is rather more important in a practical sense, usually the strongest of the orcs under him and well-known and feared by all of them. If he was killed, all the orcs would, perhaps, recognise that as a direct insult and harm to the orcs in general and be incited to take attacking measures.

[Birdland]

Perhaps the Orcs are like many families and clans that exist today. They will fight, bicker, and backstab amongst themselves, but if threatened by "outsiders", they will immediately band together to defeat them and defend "orckind". So if an outside foe did kill an important member of the band, you probably would find them setting out to seek revenge, no matter what they thought of that Orc personally.

And why not? Orcs were universally reviled. It wasn't like an orc could defect and go over to the other side. Even an orc who claimed he wanted to "sell out" to the enemy would probably never be trusted by the other races.

When you have nothing left, the one thing most anyone will cling to is Pride. And I'd say even the Orcs would agree that Pride is about the only thing they still had going for them.

[Kuruharan]

Ditto to what Birdland said.

Orcs also seemed to get along better in-tribe than they did with other orcs. Most of the accounts of orc infighting are of fighting between two (or three) different tribes of orcs: Isengarders vs. Mordorians and Mountain Orcs; Minas Morgul vs. Cirith Ungol; tracker orc vs. Uruk. The only example that comes to mind of fighting between members of the same tribe was Shagrat and Snaga. I'm not saying that this sort of thing did not happen at all, but it was probably not as common as it may seem from looking at it from the outside.
Bringing this ramble full circle, members of a tribe probably did have some degree of loyalty to their own tribe chief, after all he's probably family.

[Thingol]

All of this discussion assumes that most orcs have independent thought. Tolkien went through many different, and contradictory concepts on the nature of orcish autonomy. Orcs as a whole do not seem to have any independence, they are like ants, without a guiding will they are completely impotent. However, whenever an individual orc is described it is always as willful and independent. Tolkien conceived of orcs as corrupted elves, perverted men, and even twisted apes. The name Boldog is given to several of the powerful orc leaders, who were supposedly inhabited by Maia during the First Age. Personally, I believe that there were many types of orcs, ranging from the weakest twisted animals, totally dependent on their masters, to completely independent orcs inhabited by Maia. Saruman was into the whole crossbreeding scene, and it just makes things so much more interesting if there were several types of orcs to work with. Tolkien hints that there were a lot of lost elven spirits floating around in Middle Earth that Sauron was particularly good at capturing. If my theory is correct these orcs, inhabited by enslaved elven spirits, would probably be the most willing to go to great ends to avenge a fallen Boldog captain, whereas I doubt that one of the twisted animals would even be capable of acting on their own. I think it all depends on the orc.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Kuruharan]

Do you think that the Tracker was important enough to have an elvish spirit? He certainly acted independently in his speech and in shooting the Uruk.
I would think that a lowly tracker would not be important enough to have such a spirit. As a matter of fact I think that giving such a lowly peon a soul could be a disadavantage. To me this tends to show that lower level orcs could, and did, act independently.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I agree with Kuru here. You have to be careful with non-canon. What you describe are really Tolkien's background notes, notes which every author makes, but very few if any publish. It's the development of Tolkien's thought, and it's hard to say what the final word is from them. What we do know is finished, complete, and final is the LotR. In that, as Kuru and Gwaihir point out, orcs 'avenge their fallen captain' and show a great deal of rogueish independence.

They're like brigands. They have a cultish clan-pride, based not on loyalty, but on being exclusionary and superior. They will avenge the insult to their clan. I find the character Ugluk interesting - tired soldier just doing his job, humoring unwilling followers. Offers a great deal of insight into the nature of orcs there. What a brutal sense of humor they had. Leaving that poor slob hanging for Shelob..

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Of course Orcs had independent thought. They were rather stupid, to be sure, and acted in many ways like ants, they still had independent minds. In fact it's a bit sad really... how would you like to be an orc? Disgusting, completely evil, and perpetually unclean... when an orc was killed, it was regarded as justifiable homicide under any circumstance. But Orcs probably don't feel that way. Maybe they thought of the 'good' races the same way as we think of them.

I've always wondered what kind of fea orcs were inhabited by. It seems very cruel to think that orcs are elves or men who have been bent by Morgoth. To suggest that they are Maia doesn’t quite seem right either, and Houseless Elves would certainly not behave in the manner that orcs do.

Perhaps Morgoth created the Orcs in the same way that Aule created dwarves? Except, because Morgoth was not permitted to create, only to copy, he had to model them directly from the Children of Illuvitar. So he captured some of the first Elves, bent and broke them, probably killed them, and then on that bent and broken model he built his first orc prototypes.

[Kalimac]

Birdland, good thought there - I'd sort of had that idea in my head but didn't manage to articulate it as well as you did [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. One thing I'd like to add is that while the passage mentions "avenging" a fallen captain, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Orcs THEMSELVES see anything inherently selfless or noble about tracking down whoever slew their leader. They could just be getting back at someone who deprived them of protection. The word "avenge" does seem to imply a "code of honor" but you also have to remember who's talking here. It's hard to imagine one of Tolkien's lordly characters saying "They have been known to travel far, particularly if their leader has been killed and they want to get some of their own back." This could just be his noble gloss on the whole procedure, or what he takes for granted is the case judging by what he's seen from the outside.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Tolkien implies pretty clearly in the Silm that the orcs are elves of the Avari who were captured by Morgoth. That would make their fea elven. Sad thought.

I don't think there is any justifiable homicide in the LotR. Necessary and unfortunate homicide. But not justifiable. No, that just wasn't Tolkien's way. Note the pity for Gollum he urged. And "I pity even his slaves." Not to chide here, just an observation.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Yes, Kalimac, I think you've just about got our answer. Can't say as I fully agree with Birland though. Orcs didn't really care what people thought of them, they didn't have much in the way of Pride.

In response to Mar: I'm not saying that there was justifiable homicide in ME. But the characters that lived there seemed to lay into orcs with unusual venom, whenever they could.

Tolkien implies pretty clearly in the Silm that the orcs are elves of the Avari who were captured by Morgoth.

Can you relay this pretty clear implication from the silm to me, do you think? I'm not quite sure that it exists. You say that orcs are elves of the Avari. I don't think they were; even tormented and broken elves would never metamorphise into orcs. I still hold to my Aule theory. Not wishing to chide of course. :P

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

And among them were the Orcs, who afterwards wrought ruin in Beleriand: but they were few and wary, and did but smell out the ways of the land, awaiting the return of their lord. Whence they came, or what they were, the Elves knew not then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in the wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said.

So it came to pass, some years ere the coming of Orome, that if any of the Elves strayed far abroad, alone or few together, they would often vanish, and never return...

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of certainty. Yet this is held true of the wise of Eressea, that all those who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Illuvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainunlindale before the Beginning: so say the wise.

Seems clear to me. (You can curse the day Mhoram made me reread the Silm.) [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

I think it also supports the idea that orcs can have a code of honor.

-Maril

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[HerenIstarion]

Very interesting topic, indeed. Can't add anything right away, being in a hurry, yet I can give you some more to think about, just take a look at that - Orkish Fëar

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Thanks, Heren. There's a lot of info in that thread. I don't think I agree with Saulotus.

Hm. This discussion with Saulotus gets back to the question of what you consider 'Canon' - the most recent revisions in Tolkien's notes, or the most final, published versions. I tend towards the latter, looking at the notes for my short stories. I tend to over edit, and my later notes aren't a good indication of the direction I should go. I usually abandon those ideas.

I never like bludgeoning with quotes (as I have here, and I feel slightly guilty for it, too). It's a discussion-killer, and challenges the memory more than the logical/creative/imaginative mind.

Like good poetry, in Tolkien much is implied, left in the margins. The works lay the foundation, but don't map every inch. We should be able to draw conclusions like a surveyor, sighting from one point to another.

[ May 18, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Tarthang]

This is a good thread.
To Maril(too long to remember): I think the quotes from the Silm are good and in this case don't end the topic. Rather I think they establish Orcish origins. Thereby pointing out that orcs were a people with a culture (a rather mean and twisted sort thanks to Morgoth, and also capable of independant thought and action. So I believe reasonable to assume they did have code of honor, though not in a chivalric sense as we understand. So there's no reason they wouldn't avenge a leader sort, but the conventional reasons for such an action don't apply without a deep understanding of orcish culture.
Earlier in the thread Kuruharan calls the Tracker a lowly type of orc. The part of ROTF where the tracker is present in the story, actually gives some good insight to the orcish culture, where it seems warrior are held in higher esteem than those who provide other services/ benefits to their society.