Can the book be considered rascist?

[Baran]

I consider the LOTR and silmarillio a masterpiece, and I love the books.
The only thing I find a bit disturbing is when Tolkien describes non-white people. They are always evil, and he even describes men from the far south of Harad to be "Terrible, with black skin, white eyes and red tuonges, like half-trolls" (in the ROTK, quote translated from Norwegian book).
And several other places he described black people in a very non flattering way. Did he consider non-white people lesser than white?
And all this about the pure bloodlines, people being of pure blood, it reminds me of the Nazi ideals.

So please people, convinse me Tolkien was no rascist!

*** BW'S EDITING NOTE ***
I changed the title. I couldn't stand seeing the word 'racistic' any more! The gross misspelling was driving me crazy!

[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ]

[Anarya SilverBranch]

I don't think he was racist, because I think when he referred to 'black' I don't think he meant like African American or African English in his sense. I think he meant like a deep black like that of soot or black smoke, like an evil black. And conisdering the book was based on European legends and such that is probably the reason why they were all caucasion (I think thats how you spell it)
Because I mean if a fantasy book was written and it was based on African legends there would probably be no cacausion people in it.

[Nuranar]

Baran, there was a thread on that subject about a couple weeks ago. There's a lot of interesting stuff on it; check it out! Go here.

Oh, and welcome to the Downs! Don't worry about your bad spelling; heck, you're a lot better than some people who've grown up speaking English... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Ibun_Clawarrow]

I don't think Tolkien was racist in the "burning crosses on lawns" sense, but he was definatly a product of his age. When he wrote about the physical appeances of his characters, he was probably just using the English model for beauty, where blond hair, blue eyes and light skin were preferable. I don't think he was actively trying to put any specific race down, he was just conforming to the standards of his time. It's not like he would have known any blacks, Asians, or other minorities anyway given the time and place that he lived in. Our own (that is American, I mean) standards of beauty still conform somewhat to this Northern European standard as well. Not being white myself, I have noticed the preoccupation with blond hair, etc. Despite that, I still think that Tolkien is a great writer that all people can enjoy, even if his idea of "beautiful" is not universal.

[pippin_took0]

Everyone keeps starting boards about Tolkein being racist and sexist, but if you want my honest opinion, I hadn't noticed this anywhere in any of his books at all.

[Voronwe]

Actually, Tolkien was born in South Africa and spent his very early childhood there. There is a letter Tolkien wrote to his son where he complains about the racism in that country at the time. Anyone reading the letter can see that Tolkien was not a racist man. However, he was not, thankfully, a politically correct writer either.

[Lomelinde]

Arrgh! This is always brought up sooner or later. As was mentioned earlier, Tolkien was a product of his time, yes, but he was no racist. And yes, his ideals of beauty did lean toward the Nordic look.However, he stated many times in various letters to friends that he was trying to create a plausible alternative history of Europe.That's all. Tolkien was not trying to make a racial statement with his works. He was trying to tell stories and open imaginations. That's it.

[Lush]

I think if you're one of those people who actively try to get Huckleberry Finn banned and burned, then yeah, you may see racism in the LotR. I just think that Tolkien wrote the classic European "fairy-story," and such stories do not have multi-culturalism and political correctness in their root, for better or for worse.
And, I like the idea of how the black men Tolkien described were more of a product of evil than an African or Arabic race. Certainly, the familiar physical characteristics are present, but Tolkien's point, I believe, was to draw a big fat line between the evil and the good, as a classic fairy-story writer would. Something to the extent of "people from Africa are bad, kids!" was definitely not his intetion, as far as I can understand.
Furthermore, you can't judge the past using the standards of the present.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Aralaithiel]

Thank you Lush!!!! I have found another soul who shares my views on this topic! Hooray! *Aralaithiel does happy dance*
Oh, and you too, Voronwe! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Baran]

Thanks for all the anwers, here comes more to work on!

I think this is an very important topic to discuss, and remember I ask questions, I'm not making statements.

When I ask can Tolkien be considered rascistic I talk about men, White and Non-white, not the Dwarves and Elves, keep this in mind.

If Non-white people alway is described as evil beings, and easy to corrupt, is this rascicm? Or should Toliens work be considered a myth of Europe, where white people linger, and where in war with their neighbors, who happened to be dark skinned because they came from the South. It can't be considered rascicm to describe the facts, like it's not rascicm when the newspaper tells about a white boy being shot down by Three black boys. But still, in Tolkiens work, (I've read LOTR, SILM, and the Hobbit) I am yet to find a Non-white man doing a noble act. intentional?

When Elves or white men do evil, they are corrupted by Evil powers, where non-white born evil, would they've be evil without Sauron to influence them, or would the (as example) Haradrims be an potential trading place for Gondor whitout Sauron to corrupt them?

And Sams quote from 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit' didn't he ask the same question I just did? He didn't answer it, he merely asked if the Black Haradrims where evil, like the orcs, or if they deep down had their own soul.

And most Disturbing: The Pure Blood lines of the Numenors and the kings, who shuold not mix with lesser people? And gruops of people fading from their former greatness because they mixed their pure blood. You'll find enough examples of this in the LOTR.

Please don't attack me, I just ask the uncomfortable questions, and don't attack the questions, answer them.

[Thalionyulma]

I don’t know what it is about “skin color” and such... I prefer being called “color blind”. Anyway, I have never believed JRRT to be a racist, nor have I ever viewed his works to be such.
It was mentioned before, JRRT was a product of his time, I believe that too. Besides, human prejudice is the word that comes to mind (but would you consider prejudicism the same as racism?), in my opinion. But I don’t consider Tolkien to be a bigot, either.

What is it about the appearances? Let’s face it... black (or dark skinned/non-white, whatever) and traits we view as ugly or physically abnormal (okay, even mentally abnormal) are considered crooked, twisted, "evil" most of the time. And aren't most people "repelled" by these?
And Pure Bloods? Is it not common even in our time that the elite/rich or royalty “should” only “mix” with their own kind?

These “traits“ that can be found in LOTR are just common traits of man. JRRT was just probably going to that “level of humanity” (or should I say mentality?).

Sam’s questions were probably JRRT’s questions as well. Actually, these questions are not uncomfortable... its a matter of how you perceive them.

okay that's my two cents worth - now I'm off to bed! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Sharkû]

I haven't made a quote-by-quote analysis of a post in ages, so please bear with me for once.

If Non-white people alway is described as evil beings, and easy to corrupt...

All men are easy to corrupt, none of them are (inherently) evil.

should Toliens work be considered a myth of Europe

In a way, that was still Tolkien's underlying intention. The events described are a) from the perspective that seemed most natural to the person that was JRRT and, b) that was the most interesting in the course of the Three Ages since it was the North and North-West of ME where the brunt of the action took place.
Euro-centrism? Perhaps, but do not disregard, for example, the fact that all men awoke in the East, and are created equal as far as we know. Men are nobled by their deeds (that goes mainly for the Atani), or the deeds of their ancestors, not their sole lineage.

I am yet to find a Non-white man doing a noble act

Unfinished Tales has Sador, Drúedain in Númenor; Silm. has the people of Bor; LOTR has again the Woses, Breelanders, and of course the Haradrim (if valor in battle isn't a noble deed, what is?).

Non-whites are not born evil, that is a thought that cannot fit in the cosmology at all. The only thing one may inherit at birth are the emnity with another people for historical or political reasons; or an aftermath of the primeval corruption of Man by Morgoth. As is shown in that on what we can glimpse on beyond the events of the Ring War, trade and peaceful coexistance was of course possible -- cf. the repenting of the Dunlanders after the Battle of the Hornburg, the release of the Mannish slaves of Mordor, etc.

The purity of blood seems a more difficult matter. I could at great length explain its mythological importance that would justify the use of it as a topos in a work of fiction, and could only marginally touch its importance in Biblical tradition.

One could also quote and explain from the Legendarium proper: that less noble men mainly implies men that were less long-lived, not necessarily less virtuous; and that the most ardent defenders of the purity of lineage were in fact on the morally wrong side, as can be seen in the Kin-Strife of Gondor.

I could refer to my abovementioned statement that it was only the deeds of the Edain in the War against Morgoth that founded the nobility of their lineage in first place, and that the rest of their nobility was made up by their partially Elven descent through Elros.

All of these may not wholly answer the question one might still ask just why the author chose to write it the way he did. But we do know the Professor certainly was not racist; and as I have hoped to prove to some extent, neither is the work.

[Estel the Descender]

I am yet to find a Non-white man doing a noble act

Actually, the Woses, the men of the Druadan forest helped the Rohirrim during the War of the Ring. Based on the way they are described, they resembled people of either Polynesian or African descent. Furthermore, their leader rebukes Theoden indirectly of the original Rohirrim progroms of the Woses.

In return for the help they gave, King Elessar forbade anyone from persecuting these people. The Woses would fit the description of non-whites being very noble.

Furthermore, the High Elves were dark-haired (with the exception of the house of Finarfin and the Vanyar who are yellow-haired): Arwen Undomiel was dark-haired, i.e., not nordic. And the hobbits are supposed to be 'brown' in skin colour.

[TheWindsorStar]

Personally, when I read the books I didn't pick up any hint of racism. I don't think Tolkien even meant to have men with seperate skin colours. Men from Harad probably didn't have naturally black skin. Correct me if I'm wrong. He was trying to create an alternative history for England. Well considering the time period that the books seem to take place in, caucasians would have dominated the area. Any people of other skin colours would have seem misplaced, don't you think? That's not racist, it's acurate.

Now for the sexism issue. Tolkien was most definitely not sexist. Sure, there were no females in the fellowship. Most of the main characters, or the heroes if you will, were male. This is for a reason, though, and that reason is that these were the standards of Middle-earth. Anyhow, look at the female characters that did have a role. Take Eowyn or Luthien for an example. Both very complex and powerful characters, who accomplished great things. Knowing this, it's impossible to say that Tolkien was sexist.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Another way to determine if Tolkien was racist is to look at his conduct in his own life. Since Tolkien lived through World War II, the biggest racial question at that time was, of course, how Hitler's Germany viewed themselves as superior because of their "Aryan" blood and the resulting genocide of the Jews as well as the persecution of "supposedly inferior" groups like the gypsies, the mentally handicapped, and gay people. (Hitler's Germany would undoubtedly have treated black and brown people the same had they been inside Germany in large numbers.)

Before the War, a publisher wanted to buy the rights to translate the Hobbit into German. The publisher wrote Tolkien a letter and asked if Tolkien was an Aryan. The author was furious at this. He replied that he had no Jewish blood in his family, but was very sad he did not. Moreover, he he had many Jewish friends. Then, he told the publisher he wanted nothing to do with them and would they please go hang themselves with their insane ideas (his language, not mine!).

This is all the more remarkable when you remember the very straight financial circumstances Tolkien was in at this time. Even with the publication of the Hobbit, things were tight. In this same time period, when Tolkien received an award for the Hobbit which came with a 50 pound prize, he immediately turned to his wife and told her to use it for their overdue doctor bills. So turning down a contract of this type was not merely an empty gesture. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Rosa_Baggins]

yeh all that people in the story are white though and i surpose that he in't really rascist unless im wrong and he is.
Hmmmmm and i think you have to look at his past and decide 4 yourself because no1 but his family really knew wht hewas like sooooooo I think hes not rascist but i could be wrong its only what i think [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Halfir]

Baran : I don't doubt the genuiness of your questions- indeed your follow-up points make it clear that this is a subject that has caused you some concern. It is, however, together with "Was Tolkien Sexist?" a very old chestnut that has been picked over again and again.

In assessing a work of literature one looks to see the intent of the author. If you read LOTR there is no way that you can conclude that the intent of JRR was to write a racist tract anymore than you can conclude that he set out to write a sexist work.The fact that passing references and characterizations might be deemed to be one or the other is irrelevant - one would have to warp the text out of all proportion to conclude that either of the racist/sexist claims were true.

Oscar Wilde held that there was no such thing as a moral or immoral work - only a good work of art or a bad work of art. I don't think Tolkien - a devout Catholic - would have agreed with him, but Wilde's cooment is a useful antidote to some of the more 'politically correct' approaches adopted by some readers. And, indeed, what is politically correct today, won't be so tomorrow, and wasn't yesterday.

[TheWindsorStar]

I'd just like to state as well, that work is much more enjoyable when it's believable, and Tolkien's is. If you look at the society, culture, etc., that Middle-eart was supposed to take place in, you'll see that there would in fact be very few, if no, non-white people. It's not racist if they're not there. Also, the roles of women were based on the society/culture that was Middle-earth. Realistically, the women wouldn't go marching off to war. But I fail to see how anyone could accuse Tolkien of being sexist after reading his work. Look at Eowyn, Luthien, even Nienor and Arwen. I'm not sure how to describe it, so let me just say that I've never picked up any hints of sexism what-so-ever in his work, and I think that it's ridiculous to even consider that idea. This is something I tend to stress, even in society today. Men and Women have roles. Some of them are the same, most are different. It's not sexist, it's life. Exaggerated political correctness annoys me in this world, and I'm relieved that it's nowhere to be found in Tolkien's.

The idea that Tolkien was racicist, to me is pure bull crap. (in fact, i was under the immpression that Morgoth had tainted the people of the east and south with spells and such)As is the talk that he was sexist. Complete bull. When Tolien wrote LotR and the Sil women had different roles than they do now. In fact, you could say he created the role of a strong, independant woman in literature(Eowyn, killed a winged beast and a ringwraith;Galadriel, had the one of the elvish rings of power AND destroyed Dol Guldur;Luthien, she and Beren alone snagged a silmaril from the crown of Morgoth)

o yeah, and Luthien (and Arwen)had BLACK HAIR which isnt naturally nordic (blonde hair is)

[Baran]

OK, I'm convinced Tolkien had no rascistic motiv, actually the first Men going west from the east was probably colored. In RL My middle name is Baran (means rain). I use it as my nick because the son of Beor also was named Baran (yeah, I actually share name with a character from Silmarillion [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] ). I just found out it means golden-browns in elvish, guess it refers to his skin coulor. Any thoughts on this?

[Kalessin]

Erm ...

When Tolien wrote LotR and the Sil women had different roles than they do now. In fact, you could say he created the role of a strong, independant woman in literature

Sorry but have to disagree. "Strong independent women in literature" had been around for a while before Tolkien. That includes strong independent women authors, too. In fact, you can go right back to pre-Christian Irish mythology, for example, to find many powerful female characters.

As far as "different roles" go, I'm not sure. In the years that Tolkien was writing LotR, the women of England were making munitions in factories, and fighting undercover in France in the SOE.

Tolkien's work is precisely nostalgic (by his own admission) and evokes a sense of roles and responsibilities for women that are in the main positively medieval [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Fortunately, that doesn't stop LotR being a great book [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Peace

Something to consider. We are human and as humans we tend to think in patterns. I believe that the reason for racism in the first place is this same feature of thinking in patterns. Humans like to categorise everything and refrens new things learned to those things which are new to us. In this sence there is then prejudice regardles of our motives. So I guess one of my questions is that is prejudice racism, or are they infact the same thing ? Secondly if Tolkien had prejudice toward different races, could this have been something that was highlighted in his work ?
Personally I don't believe that Tolkien was a racist, but I believe in the difference of prejudice and racism. I believe that there is some prejudice that Tolkien had and those came out in his writing. This prejudice I believe was not as much a bad attitude against a race but a beliefe of the misleading of an entire culture. The world was a very different place in Tolkien's time and I believe that people in a non-Christian culture were viewed as pagan or mislead who needed correction. I think the people from the south (in LotR) were a mislead people fooled by Sauron to join with him.
I do not think that I hold the ultimate truth to this (of course) but this has made sence to me. I am very open to other views. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[*Varda*]

I personally didn't see any hint of racism or sexism in the books. The line about the black men coming out of Far Harad doesn't appear to me to be racist. They live in the south, where a lot of people are generally darker naturally. Or it could just have been a descriptive term to show that evil was black (but not in terms of skin colour). Saruman was evil, but he was white. Also, it seems natural for many of the evil people to be darker skinned as evil seemed to indicate shadows, darkness etc. As for the lack of dark skinned good people, this just seems to reflect the times and society Tolkien lived in. At that time, black people weren't such a large part of the population, and therefore may not have featured a lot in LoTr. These are just a few of my ideas, they probably don't mean much.

baran... do you think every evil person should have the same skin-color? i wouldn't find that realistic...