Origin of Elves? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aule · 06-04-2003, 06:55 AM

Many Elves in storys are small mischevious creatures rather than the noble and wise ones we see in Tolkiens works. They are more like Dobby the house elf from HP. This is the image many people not familiar with Tolkiens works have, and this really annoys me.
I want to be able to say my friends, that this idea of Dobby like elfs is wrong and only occurs in fairy tales. But i don't know if this would be true.
Where did Tolkiens vision of Elves come from, did they come from the Germanic, Finnish and Nordic Sagas he was so fond of. Or are they truely unique to him.

If this has already been answered could a kind person give me a link to it please

Hans Markus Rod · 06-04-2003, 09:57 AM

Tolkien has a lot of ispiration from celtic and nordic mythology. I do not know what has inspired him to show the elves as fair and noble. As a Norwegean i know a bit about nordic mythology, and several places i the Edda, which was one of Tolkien inspirationsources, elves are described as both wise and noble, but they were wrightning to the common people because so little was to be known about them.
You should read the Edda works by Snorre Sturlason, I have done it myself, but i am planning to read it during the Summer vacation.

the guy who be short · 06-04-2003, 11:21 AM

He got them from the Celtic legends, where they were powerful creatures (but evil i think. not sure.)
Interestingly, he hated shakespeare, because he portrayed Puck as a little "Dobby-thing" as you say!

Finwe · 06-05-2003, 08:56 AM

Exactly! The orignal Elves were like the Sidhe of Celtic legend, a higher (although, fallen) race than man. They were tall, beautiful, and immensely skilled. Tolkien always hated Shakespeare because he made Elves into a little race of pixies that hid in woods.

***Sharkû*** · 06-05-2003, 10:44 AM

"Elves' is a translation, not perhaps now very suitable, but originally good enough, of Quendi. They are represented as a race similar in appearance (and more so the further back) to Men, and in former days of the same stature. I will not here go into their differences from Men ! But I suppose that the Quendi are in fact in these histories very little akin to the Elves and Fairies of Europe; and if I were pressed to rationalize, I should say that they represent really Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties, greater beauty and longer life, and nobility" (Letter 144, italics mine)

"But to those creatures which in English I call misleadingly Elves* are assigned two related languages more nearly completed [...] *Intending the word to be understood in its ancient meanings, which continued as late as Spenser — a murrain on Will Shakespeare and his damned cobwebs." (Letter 131, italics mine)

Those ancient meanings of the word elf can be defined solely within the realm of philological origin, without taking any languages or mythologies other than the Teutonic into account:
"The name of a class of supernatural beings, in early Teutonic belief supposed to possess formidable magical powers, exercised variously for the benefit or the injury of mankind. [...] The Teutonic belief in elves is probably the main source of the mediæval superstition respecting fairies, which, however, includes elements not of Teutonic origin;" (OED² on CD-Rom, lemma elf n1)

The two important things are that Tolkien did not equate his Quendi with the 'ancient' elves, he merely used the existing word in its ancient meaning as a translation.
The second point would be that the similiarites which naturally exist simply derive from apparent "pressure to rationalize". There is nothing about "Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties, greater beauty and longer life, and nobility" (Letter 144) which would need to be inspired by any secondary source, and there is nothing about it which would allow one to draw parallels between otherwise totally different phenomenons.
The one case where the latter would be possible is only if properly differentiated - the elves one would be able to compare the Quendi to would have to fit the definition of Tolkien's Quendi and at the same time must not contradict anything beyond their rationalized description.

06-04-2003, 06:55 AM	#1
Aule Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hammering away in Valinor Posts: 126	Origin of Elves? Many Elves in storys are small mischevious creatures rather than the noble and wise ones we see in Tolkiens works. They are more like Dobby the house elf from HP. This is the image many people not familiar with Tolkiens works have, and this really annoys me. I want to be able to say my friends, that this idea of Dobby like elfs is wrong and only occurs in fairy tales. But i don't know if this would be true. Where did Tolkiens vision of Elves come from, did they come from the Germanic, Finnish and Nordic Sagas he was so fond of. Or are they truely unique to him. If this has already been answered could a kind person give me a link to it please __________________ For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall

06-04-2003, 09:57 AM	#2
Hans Markus Rod Pile O'Bones Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Asker Posts: 23	Tolkien has a lot of ispiration from celtic and nordic mythology. I do not know what has inspired him to show the elves as fair and noble. As a Norwegean i know a bit about nordic mythology, and several places i the Edda, which was one of Tolkien inspirationsources, elves are described as both wise and noble, but they were wrightning to the common people because so little was to be known about them. You should read the Edda works by Snorre Sturlason, I have done it myself, but i am planning to read it during the Summer vacation. __________________ 'In this bloody dawn I will wash my sword, to call the spirit of vengeance, to deny my wisdom for anger, to break the scream of the silent foe and to be the Son of Doom.'

06-05-2003, 08:56 AM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Exactly! The orignal Elves were like the Sidhe of Celtic legend, a higher (although, fallen) race than man. They were tall, beautiful, and immensely skilled. Tolkien always hated Shakespeare because he made Elves into a little race of pixies that hid in woods. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

06-04-2003, 11:21 AM	#3
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,496	He got them from the Celtic legends, where they were powerful creatures (but evil i think. not sure.) Interestingly, he hated shakespeare, because he portrayed Puck as a little "Dobby-thing" as you say!

06-05-2003, 10:44 AM	#5
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,721	"Elves' is a translation, not perhaps now very suitable, but originally good enough, of Quendi. They are represented as a race similar in appearance (and more so the further back) to Men, and in former days of the same stature. I will not here go into their differences from Men ! But I suppose that the Quendi are in fact in these histories very little akin to the Elves and Fairies of Europe; and if I were pressed to rationalize, I should say that they represent really Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties, greater beauty and longer life, and nobility" (Letter 144, italics mine) "But to those creatures which in English I call misleadingly Elves* are assigned two related languages more nearly completed [...] *Intending the word to be understood in its ancient meanings, which continued as late as Spenser — a murrain on Will Shakespeare and his damned cobwebs." (Letter 131, italics mine) Those ancient meanings of the word elf can be defined solely within the realm of philological origin, without taking any languages or mythologies other than the Teutonic into account: "The name of a class of supernatural beings, in early Teutonic belief supposed to possess formidable magical powers, exercised variously for the benefit or the injury of mankind. [...] The Teutonic belief in elves is probably the main source of the mediæval superstition respecting fairies, which, however, includes elements not of Teutonic origin;" (OED² on CD-Rom, lemma elf n1) The two important things are that Tolkien did not equate his Quendi with the 'ancient' elves, he merely used the existing word in its ancient meaning as a translation. The second point would be that the similiarites which naturally exist simply derive from apparent "pressure to rationalize". There is nothing about "Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic and creative faculties, greater beauty and longer life, and nobility" (Letter 144) which would need to be inspired by any secondary source, and there is nothing about it which would allow one to draw parallels between otherwise totally different phenomenons. The one case where the latter would be possible is only if properly differentiated - the elves one would be able to compare the Quendi to would have to fit the definition of Tolkien's Quendi and at the same time must not contradict anything beyond their rationalized description.