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Old 03-11-2002, 10:40 PM   #1
Mhoram
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Sting A funny thing happened on the way to the canon

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/4786/63343
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/4786/45552

A couple essays by Micheal Martinez; I expect most have read them, but I desire to discuss them now, assuming anyone is still around here.

He really has some good points. I've been working feverously on canon stuff for the last two weeks, but after reading these i'm reevaluating the whole subject.

It's likely that the whole reason i've been obsessing over creating a canon is just to provide me a good reason and pathway to spend unlimited time reading, studying, and answering every little question and curiousity I can concieve.

My greatest desire with it all is to provide a seamless chronological tale of the History of Arda, so that people can read and enjoy all of Tolkien's Legendarium without having to examine the endless pages of confusing lore. All the repeated, outdated, and conflicting scraps thrown together in HoME and other sources.

I have such a desire to create, to share, there is so much beyond the Silmarilion that can now only be obtained by extrodinary study. It would be so nice to organize and produce a canon to replace all that.

I reconize the good points MM brings, but I still cannot bring myself to leave everything as it is. Such a waste it seems. Any thoughts? Are we doomed?

[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]
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Old 03-11-2002, 10:56 PM   #2
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This is the way in which I have been working on canon things and I believe that a valuable work could be accomplished by these means without attempting to be canon; which, as shown by MM, would be asking for trouble.


Quote:
I suggest first creating the most complete "Tale of Years" possible. This would follow the same pattern as Appendix B in RotK. This tale of years would span from the beginning with The Music of the Ainur through the little information on the Fourth Age as we have.

The point of doing this is to give a really solid organization to the project. Once you have the Tale of Years you could go to each point on the timeline and gather ALL the writings which deal or refer to it. After finishing with this you would have all of tolkien's legendarium together, with multiple copies of many sections throughout, since some sections are going to apply to many points on the timeline. This is being thorough, maybe overly so, and could be debated.

Now you can go through each point on the timeline and if it has only one account and there are no suggested conflicts, it's marked as finished and set aside. Doing this with all points you would be left with those which have conflict or multiple accouts. These would be discussed one by one(not necessarily in order) until a conclusion is met. Some points will be ready to be put aside as complete, but some will never be answered or finished, these would be handled thusly: They would be narrowed down to the least bit of possible interpretations and these points on the timeline would thereafter be presented with such possible interpretations as can not be decided surely against.

At this point the timeline should be in it's most complete phase, a chronological History of Arda, the sum of all Tolkien's Legendarium.
I make special note of this:

Quote:
They would be narrowed down to the least bit of possible interpretations and these points on the timeline would thereafter be presented with such possible interpretations as can not be decided surely against.
So it wouldn't be canon, but would provide readers with kind of an organized History of Arda, freeing them of the need to examine all the various texts, unless they really wanted to.
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Old 03-12-2002, 04:54 PM   #3
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My greatest desire with it all is to provide a seamless chronological tale of the History of Arda, so that people can read and enjoy all of Tolkien's Legendarium without having to examine the endless pages of confusing lore. All the repeated, outdated, and conflicting scraps thrown together in HoME and other sources.
Well that's exactly what we're attempting to do here. I know that posting here is pretty infrequent, but don't be deceived; this is an active project. It's always good to see someone new interested in helping.

Regarding your proposed methods of operation: we're actually fairly well underway with our first section of revisions. Rather than the Tale of Years structure you suggest, we're pretty much just taking the Silmarillion chapter by chapter. I'm not convinced that a detailed Tale of Years is a necessary first step; all the major plot points of the Silmarillioin are more or less agreed upon, and the tricky parts often need to be looked at in conjunction with whatever text we're using, rather than just as part of an abstract chronological chart.

You may want to browse through some of the old threads to see what we have so far; a good deal has actually already been established concerning procedure. We are close to having a rough final version of the Fall of Gondolin, incorporating most of the Lost Tales version. We have also come to an informal consensus on several other issues in various threads. And in the "Principles of editing the Silmarillion" thread, you'll find our list of rules to follow in determining our final text.

There's currently a vote going on in the "Translations from the Elvish" forum on the infamous Balrog numbers issue with regard to the Fall of Gondolin. You have to be an "official" member of the project to vote, which just means that you have to post in the "Introduction to the Forum" thread and Lindil will give you the password.
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Old 03-12-2002, 05:53 PM   #4
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I've read a lot of the threads, i've been trying to read the fall of gondolin one. Eventually i'll finish it with complete understanding, but for god's sake you guys are long winded.

I'm not ready to make an offical statement, but I think I will eventually decide that I think 'voting' on things is a bad idea. For one thing, it sets up for a "i'll vote for your idea on this if you'll vote for my idea on that." And who are you(or we), a handfull of fans, to be voting on what stays and what goes?

I won't be making an official statement about this until I have come up with an alternative solution though.
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Old 03-13-2002, 12:07 PM   #5
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I know at first voting sounds like something of a bad idea here - but when you think about it, that's the only way we can really proceed. We are not arbitrarily voting for whatever changes we personally would like to make; we are looking at each section, determining what we should do with it in terms of our principles, and then reaching a consensus on how to implement those changes. Personal preference is explicitly not to be involved. Nor do I think the kind of political vote-buying you mention will be a problem. No one's ego is on the line here; we all genuinely want to create the best Tolkien canon that we can.
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Old 09-01-2002, 03:56 AM   #6
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*Ripping her hair out* Erm, I think you might be right about this being a task for a lifetime! I'm daunted already; I've only just started to make the effort to study the HoME in preparation for editing duties. I withdraw, I give in, it's too much! *slinks into the darkness with her book collection, muttering about Gnomes and Elu Thingol's many names.
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Old 09-07-2002, 02:25 PM   #7
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I´m agree with Mhoram, the first thing we need is to make an exhaustive chronology of Arda.

Greatings.
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Old 09-10-2002, 02:57 PM   #8
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I hereby suggest [ unless Aiwendil or anyone else has reservations] that all who wish to begin on an 'official timeline' project do so henceforth and without further delay.


While I do not necesarrily agree that it is the only way to begin the project, there is certainly nothing wrong w/ it that I can think of.
Of course you may find it takes abit of organzation among the members to proceed to put code to forum ...

I suggest that it starts in the Translations from the Elvish forum and as you get reasonable sized chunks worked out, display it here - in it's own thread.

Mhoram - your obvious interest makes you the obvious choice for leader till such time I would say as their is need or desire to vote/choose otherwise.

Please everyone interested read over the 'principles' thread of waaay back.

Any one who wants to be an active member w/ Mhoram sign on here.M. perhaps you can be in charge of responding w/ passwords and such to those interested in this particular sub-project.

I suggest that those who are already members of the project can participate directly w/ the texts or [ as I will trty and do] participate by voting on the disputed points.


Any comments, questions, etc?

I hope that this task will prove to be more bite size [ at least at each moment[ than the monstrous Fall of Gondolin.

With a task as huge as the entire thing [ a new Silmarillion that is] is, there are more than enough room for multiple tasks, as long as their are multiple workers!

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 09-10-2002, 03:14 PM   #9
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Greetings also to Tirned Tinnu [ despair not! even JRRT never finished! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ]
and
Edhel-dûr .

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 11-11-2002, 02:21 AM   #10
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Dear me, look how things have picked up. Well I had the bug at the time, and sadly no one else did, and I lost interest, but not before I got some stuff together. I'll just post what I think you might make use of. Perhaps some day in the future i'll be back in the mood to get going again.
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Old 11-11-2002, 02:34 AM   #11
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Alright here we go. I started with Sauls TOY from somewhere here on the forum, and I added and expanded with all the resources I could find. I can't remember what was left to do, but I do know I was very careful to see to it that everything was accurate, I checked every date, every name. Don't know what is left to be added, but you're going to have to analyze it even if I tell you its perfect, so you'll be able to make any additions needed. I'm pretty proud of this.

It's a .doc it should format perfectly in Microsoft Wordpad, Times New Roman, size 10.
IMPORTANT! You must highlight the link and copy it, then paste it into your address bar. Click go or whatever and it will prompt you to download it.
http://www.geocities.com/mhoramdm/Tale_of_Years.doc

Btw, I never did get a login and pass for the other forum, i'd like to have a look around in there though. Who knows, maybe this will revive my interest.

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]
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Old 11-13-2002, 08:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
I'm pretty proud of this.
You should, it's very impressive work. Wow. I noticed that you used Faenor instead of Fëanor in some of your dates, is there any reason for that?
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Old 11-13-2002, 10:36 AM   #13
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This is some pretty impressive work, but alas! we cannot use it. The version we're working on is a flat earth one. Nonetheless, I commend you for your work. Perhaps we could use some (or much) of this as the basis for a flat cosmology version.

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]
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Old 11-13-2002, 01:38 PM   #14
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As for Faenor, I recall Saulotus having a fondness for the Quenya names of the Noldorin Princes.

I havn't looked at it yet m. but I hope to peek at it later.

But Aiwendil is certainly correct re: the flat-Earth/ Round-Earth aspects. Saulotus' entire Silm work was Round-Earth.

I imagine that a bit of tweaking on the Valinorean dates is all that will be needed for the pre-Noldorin revolt dates.

But when you get to the Awakening of Men, there is as far as I can tell a feirce tangle.
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Old 11-13-2002, 02:01 PM   #15
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Maédhros, yes, that's probally the left overs from Saul's work and in putting that much data in I just didn't catch it.

Round Earth/Flat Earth: Ahh, well, thats a shame, but it'll be there for whatever help it may offer.
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Old 11-13-2002, 03:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
I recall Saulotus having a fondness for the Quenya names of the Noldorin Princes.
Interesting. "Faenor" is the pure Sindarin form.

Quote:
I imagine that a bit of tweaking on the Valinorean dates is all that will be needed for the pre-Noldorin revolt dates.

But when you get to the Awakening of Men, there is as far as I can tell a feirce tangle.
It may not be such a huge problem. I definitely think there's much of this we can use. It's certainly valid for the later Beleriandic period.
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Old 11-14-2002, 11:02 AM   #17
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right you are Aiwendil.

I suppose he used pure Sindarin [when the tales are set in beleriand] and Quenya when set in the undying lands
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Old 11-18-2002, 07:32 AM   #18
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Tolkien

Well, as in so many instances, Aiwendil is the Linguistical Backbone of the cannon. (is 'linguistical' even a word?)
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Old 03-06-2003, 09:46 PM   #19
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Question

I was looking at the Tale of years, and I wondered about entry 1492:
Morgoth slays Finwë and steals the Silmarils.

I have read the Annals of Aman in Morgoth's Ring
Quote:
§106 It may well be that Melkor, if none other, knew of her being and her abode, and that she was in the beginning one of those that he had corrupted to his service. And coming at length to Arvalin, he sought her out, and demanded her aid in his revenge. But she was loath to dare the perils of Valinor and the great wrath of the gods, and would not stir from her hiding until Melkor had vowed to render her a reward that should heal the gnawing of her hunger and hatred.
But in entry 1495 we have:
Quote:
§107 At last having well laid their plans Melkor and Ungoliantë set forth.
If Melkor and Ungoliant had begun their active plan of their doings, how is it possible that in 1492 they slew Finwë, when it is stated in the Later Quentas, that it was both Melkor and Ungoliant that Finwë withstood in Formenos? Am I missing another text here?
From Morgoth's Ring: Later Quentas
Quote:
§9 'We heard the sound of great blows struck. Out of the cloud we saw a sudden flame of fire. And then there was one piercing cry. But when we urged on our horses they reared and cast us to the ground, and they fled away wild. We lay upon our faces without strength; for suddenly the cloud came on, and for a while we were blind. But it passed us by and moved away north at great speed. Melkor was there, we do not doubt. But not he alone! Some other power was with him, some huge evil: even as it passed it robbed us of all wit and will.
What am i missing here?
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Old 04-08-2003, 12:27 PM   #20
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You know, I really should have added footnotes to where I took the different entries, it's been so long, I can't remember anything.
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Old 04-08-2003, 12:53 PM   #21
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Think i've got it. The only place I can find 1492 as Finwe's time of death is in Saul's 1st age TOY. I think I assumed that someone as well versed as Saul would be accurate, so I just copied his 1st age TOY and added from there, my mistake. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I think I said that this TOY would without a doubt require proofing. It's only the first 15%, up to the end of the Time Of The Trees that is Sauls, proof that and many of your problems may be solved with it.

Could someone double check on the flat earth/round earth problem, skipping Sauls bit, the rest might be what you need, not sure. Nix Sauls part, drop in the TOY from The Annals Of Aman and it might be spot on.
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Old 04-08-2003, 01:59 PM   #22
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Mhoram, thanks, I thought that you had forgotten about it.
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