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Old 03-31-2001, 10:24 AM   #1
lindil
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The Sindarization of an Avari was probably much more than a change of names, it would I imagine have involved a more reverential view and history of the Valar,[ the sindarin culture being moulded in great respect by Melian, I am supposing] and seen the March as a good thing.

There would be a variety of rituals for which the blessing of the Valar would be invoked and these would be entirely absent I would guess among the Avari.Maybe they called upon Eru directly? Feeling [especially after tales of the Noldor's rebellion had filtered to them from the Sindar] that direct appeal to Eru was purer and as the Valar had indeed [from and Avairn point of view] made a mistake in summoning the elves. It would be like marrying into a different family and culture.


I recall [Q&amp;E?UT? ] some mention being made of Dorwinion wine making it to Beleriand in the 1 st age.

Were the elves there Avari or Nandor who did not even make it to the Misty mountains/Anduin ?
Or was the Sea of Rhun the latter name for the 'waters of awakening'/cuivenen [sp?] and those who stayed where really Avari?

I wonder then if this was the reason for Legolas' reference in Lothlorien that there was a virtual communication breakdown [I should say lack of earthly contact - as I can not say there was no Osanwe ] between Thranduil's realm and Lothlorien.
That the Dorwinion Elves were at extreme philosophical odds with the Elves in Lothlorien who had excepted a Noldorin Ruler and demanded that the Mirkwood elves take sides of some sort. There is I think in UT some mention of the Mirkwood elves wanting to return to a sylvan elf way of life, as opposed to a 'Sindarized/Eldarin ' way I guess.





This was originally a continuation of the reincarnation thread extracted to here.





Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 04-19-2001, 03:10 PM   #2
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Avari vs. Eldar

us cw Lindil:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> it would I imagine have involved a more reverential view and history of the Valar<hr></blockquote>

A very thought provoking post, Comrade. To add my thoughts on one point - I don't know to what extent the Sindar revered the Valar. In the Third Age, at least, reverence for the Valar appears to have been regarded as a characteristic of the Eldar. This is my impression based on the passage describing Frodo's first meeting with the Elves in the LoTR, where the fact that the Elves are singing of Elbereth (in Sindarin) at once indicates to the Company that they are High Elves.

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Old 04-20-2001, 01:07 AM   #3
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Re: Avari vs. Eldar

To summon things up...

Silvan Elves of Lorien took a Noldorin Queen who were married to a Telerin Elf of Valinor or Doriath (this is another discussion).

The elves Frodo meet en the Shire states themselves that they are Exiles, therefor Noldor. Gildor even states that he is from the house of Finrod = Noldor.

The Silvan elves of Mirkwood took Oropher and later Thranduil as king. Thranduil is stated to be a sindarin elf so Oropher, his father was most proberly a sindarin elf for Lorien who came amon the amon the silvan elves from Doriath together with Galadriel and Celeborn.

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Old 04-20-2001, 11:48 AM   #4
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Re: Avari vs. Eldar

Just a small critique. Galdriel was not the Queen of Lorien.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into E, and evil be good to have been.</p>
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Old 04-20-2001, 12:33 PM   #5
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Re: Avari vs. Eldar

In some places Galadriel is said to be a queen. In other places Tolkien says she is not. So people shouldn't be too concerned over whether she was a queen.

The Avari who joined the Sindar were most likely Avari who had already joined the Nandor, specifically those Nandor wh settled in Beleriand and became the Green-elves. The Guest-elves of Doriath came from Ossiriand and they (mostly) lived in the southeastern corner of Doriath in the woods of Arthorien. They had at least one representative at Thingol's court (Saeros, son of Ithilbor in some accounts).

The adjustment was difficult for them, and I don't think they would have adopted many Eldarin rituals.

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