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Old 03-22-2001, 11:40 AM   #1
lindil
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I will splice over some of the thread in Books later today if no one beats me to it.
I may not be posting again till late tonight .


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Old 03-22-2001, 12:00 PM   #2
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a bit from 'aragorn's anscestors'



Michael Martinez
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posts: 27
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Re: the debate turns canonical


Quote:

I think the use of Peoples of M-E is valid all though
we have to be clear re: dates and the lack of
canonicity at this point for either [well not quite as I
recall a post from a loooong time ago [in barrow
time at least] where the 1977 Silm was seen as
canon] but I think since then the level of education
here at the downs has risen to a level where we can
discuss the alternate versions, and the Silmarillion's
non [or semi?]-canonical status w/out all the apples
spilling from the cart.




Lindil, The Peoples of Middle-earth is useful for dealing with
issues of canon in The Silmarillion but not for dealing with issues
of text in The Silmarillion.

You might as well quote Shakespeare.

Quote:

It seems the final answer to Fingolfin as[claiming
and being folowed as ] King [by the majority] in
Valinor is yes from the PoME ....




No. As I pointed out, there are serious problems with &quot;The
Shibboleth of Feanor&quot; as the passages concerning Fingolfin's
claims to kingship conflict with other traditions. The &quot;Shibboleth&quot;
was an attempt to explain linguistic elements of names. Like &quot;The
Problem of Ros&quot; it was composed independently of the primary
tradition and where it conflicts with the canon (which in a general
sense was &quot;fixed&quot; in Tolkien's work, though not necessarily his
thoughts) then it fails, just as &quot;The Problem of Ros&quot; does.

There is no provision in any other text for the kingships of the
Noldor in Beleriand arising after the fall of Fingolfin. The
&quot;Shibboleth&quot; can only reasonably be accepted as canonical if it A)
provides information which is not provided elsewhere without
conflicting with primary texts or B) provides information which
Christopher Tolkien specifically attributes greater authority to than
to other texts.

So, in the case of determining who had which children, the
&quot;Shibboleth&quot; is useful. But it's not useful for determining who was
king of what.

We can all easily contrive our own versions of The Silmarilion.
We cannot, however, decide for J.R.R. Tolkien (or even
Christopher Tolkien) that the primary texts are wrong.


Edited by: Michael Martinez at: 3/22/01 10:53:19 am
Gilthalion
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....Mod. edit. It is fascinating to one
such as myself who does not have the resources you folk cite.

(It also seems to me that constructing a new Silmarillion is not
&quot;easily contrive[d]&quot; however one goes about it!)

My questions for y'all are about the pragmatic issues (not that any
of this has anything to do with the original question of the thread,
which I think is answered):

What size populations are we discussing here, and how far were
they separated? How much communication was there between
them? How much did it really matter on a
day-to-day/year-to-year basis to the elves which &quot;king&quot; or
&quot;chieftain&quot; was named High King, or how long it took to resolve the
issues?

Certainly, a population that had crossed the Helcaraxe, slain their
kin at Aqualonde, and set off after Feanor against the wishes of
the Valar, would have quite an interest in who their leader would
be. But would they be willing to take a longer view of the
settlement of such disputes (especially in light of their Enemy not
so far away)? What was the actual role of the High King of the
Noldor? How much autonomy did the lesser kings/chieftans have?
How deeply was loyalty bestowed and to whom?

These are the things that this discussion makes me wonder...


Animated Skeleton
posts: 28
(3/22/01 11:56:28 am)
Reply
Re: the debate turns canonical

How much the titles mattered would be, I think, mostly an issue of
personal pride. And Tolkien did attribute or imply some stiff necks
to Feanor and Fingolfin in &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot;. I don't
believe he would have left matters as they were had he started
tying all the threads together, but quite possibly he would have
gone back and changed the primary texts to have Fingolfin
asserting a claim to kingship prior to the departure from Tirion.

Pride makes a great stumbling block, and it would have made the
dispute between Feanor and Fingolfin more poignant, I think, if
they were both running around Aman claiming to be Finwe's heir.


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posts: 510
(3/22/01 12:33:59 pm)
Reply / Edit
canon and questions

MM said:&quot;The &quot;Shibboleth&quot; can only reasonably be accepted as
canonical if it A)
provides information which is not provided elsewhere without
conflicting with primary texts or B) provides information which
Christopher Tolkien specifically attributes greater authority to than
to other texts.&quot;
lindil replies: While this is a resonable and arguable position it is
not [I hope ] the only one.
I generally a have a few criteria for deciding the canonicity of a
given point or text and that are similar to yours, but different in a
couple of respects.
1] I don't cosider the Silm to be a 'primary text' [except in cases
like Beren and Luthien where it virtually is the final form or ruin of
doriath where the only other version is from the 30's]. I consider
the versions in MR and WotJ and in some cases Lost Road to be
the primary versions versions [ the non-Myth's Transformed
versions } and while I put a great deal of weight behind CRT 's
opinions and decisions he is since essentially having abandoned
the Silm as a cohesive canon giving us dozens of alt. texts and no
resolution to many matters and having not given us a complete
and final account of just what about the Solm he would and would
not keep, I propose more or less starting over w/ HoME as a base
not the Silm as published.
2] I favor a later conception if it can be harmonized w/ out great
damage to the story [thus MT fails in my and I believe I am
correct in saying your opinion also] and while this Fingolfin as King
conception creates difficulties for the MR and 77 versions , I am
not sure yewt if they are to damaging to the text. They certainly
give Feanor more reason [prideful ones I admit ] to have
abandoned them and in general advances the subtlty and depth of
the story. It is conceivable that since we don't know JRRt's mind as
to wether he would have kept the setting aside of the sword -
drawing by fingolfin and his words&quot; Thou shalt lead and I will
folow.&quot; I think w/ out a deep exploration of the texts and it's
implications
it might be conceivable to keep both. there is need for some
exploration of all this on a closer level and I propose starting a
thread in the Silm forum for the Canonical issues ...

I took th liberty of editing out a few items not relevant to the topic. [11:07 am pst 3/22/01}


lindil




</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 3/28/01 8:34:55 pm
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Old 03-24-2001, 01:13 PM   #3
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Re: the debate turns canonical

It must be remembered that in works like the Shibboleth, Tolkien was not consciously attempting to work out the structure of the story; he had ceased work on the Quenta Silmarillion itself some time ago. He therefore did make a number of mistakes due to simple forgetfulness of what had been written. I agree with M.M. here; the existing Silmarillion narrative should be considered more reliable than the Shibboleth, despite the latter's later date.

Quote:
&lt;&lt;Pride makes a great stumbling block, and it would have made the
dispute between Feanor and Fingolfin more poignant, I think, if
they were both running around Aman claiming to be Finwe's heir. &gt;&gt;

Personal preferences and opinions should not be what a canonical Silmarillion is based upon. Aside from the main point that this is Tolkien's work and not ours (and thus, it is only his opinions that should be considered), there is also the matter of differing tastes. I, for instance, find the later Q.S. story in which Feanor and Fingolfin were, at least in words, reconciled, to be more poignant. If there is to be any attempt at a single canonical Silm., then it must be based not on anyone's opinions and preferences, but on textual continuity and faithfulness to

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Old 03-24-2001, 04:43 PM   #4
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Re: the debate turns canonical

Greetings Aiwendil, welcome to the Downs and our Project.

There were several big points raised and while I have already expressed a few opinions buried within the major thread of which this is just a tail end [see the aragorn's ancestor's in the books thread] I have4 found that I need to chew on ideas and ponder their ramifications to the whole canon before jumping to anyconclusions.
I am intrigued by Tar elenion's conception of retaining both the MR version and incorporating the majority of the Shibboleth.I am afraid I don't have time to elaborate more on my current thoughts but in the next few days I hope to put up an amendment to my 'unofficial outline'. There are already alot of ideas up in that thread[see the 4.<img src=alien.gif ALT="0]"> and I would love to hear your thoughts.





Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-24-2001, 11:20 PM   #5
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Re: the debate turns canonical

. [Moderator edit]... There are certainly many cases where sources conflict, and they must be carefully considered and choices made based both on what fits and what JRRT seems to have thought. Some versions presented are obviously rejected, but even so there are perfectly valid parts in the rejected story. An example can be made with the stories contained in the 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn', in Unfinished Tales. One version has Galadriel and Celeborn as the parents of Amroth and the founders of the Kingdom of Lorien. This version was rejected by JRRT. Amdir Malgalad was the father of Amroth and the founder of the Kingdom of Lorien. Yet this abandoned/rejected version gives us our most complete knowledge of the War of Elves and Sauron. Do we reject that perfectly valid information as well simply because JRRT rejected this version of the History of Galadriel and Celeborn?

Michael mentioned the failure of the 'Problem of Ros' above. The background on this is another debate I had with him at his old White Council forum. He had been arguing that Eldarin Kingships only passed with in the male line, that is from father to son and if there was no son it would pass to the nearest male kin of male descent (that is a kingship could not be inherited by the son of a daughter). I naturally pointed out Dior was the son of Luthien and he was Eluchil 'Thingol's heir'. He argued that the Dior being named Eluchil did not actually make him Thingol's heir, and that he did not inherit Doriath from Thingol, he started a whole new kingdom in Doriath that had nothing to do with Thingol. One of the passages I used was to counter him was from 'The Problem of Ros'. Dior says therein: &quot;I am the first of the Peredhil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.&quot;
. [Moderator edit]... Michael rejected it pointing out that JRRT noted on the text, 'most of this fails'. What he would not accept is that what failed in the text was not Dior being in fact the heir to Thingol (or much of the other valid information). What failed was JRRT's attempt to explain the etymology of 'ROS' in light of the fact that he had already defined it in the published LotR, and was forced to accept that definition.. [Moderator edit]....

This is why it is important to look at these things in their full context. .... [moderator edit]... ...the overall complexity of the Mythology.



Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 4/1/01 6:48:15 am
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Old 03-24-2001, 11:24 PM   #6
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Re: the debate turns canonical

I also posted this on the 'Aragorn's Ancestors' thread. But I think it fits here as well.

This is in responce to the statements indicating that the Shibboleth is not a valid source of information regarding this matter (or whatever matter may not be agreeable to the personal veiw of one party or another) since it says that 'the kingships of the Noldor in Beleriand arose only after the fall of Fingolfin, which is contradicted by other, earlier source material' (this is paraphrased but seems to be the intent).

The Shibboleth of Feanor (ca. 1968) says that after the death of Fingolfin: &quot;The Noldor then became divided into seperate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin.&quot;

It is pointed out that The Silmarillion and its source material as primarily contained in HoME 5, The Lost Road; HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring; and HoME 11, War of the Jewels, all mention the Noldorin kingships in Beleriand well before the of Fingolfin in Year of the Sun 456, of the First Age.
Some relevant citations are:
&quot;Fingolfin was King of Hithlum and Nivrost, and overlord of all the Gnomes. Felagund, lord of caverns, was King in Nargothrond, and his brothers Angrod and Egnor were the lords of Dorthanion and his vassals&quot;, Lost Road, Annals of Beleriand, change to Annal 52 contained in endnote 12.

&quot;Though Fingolfin of Hithlum was overlord of all the Noldor, Inglor... became indeed the greatest prince in the land. For King Felagund he was in Nargothrond, whereas his brothers Angrod and Egnor were lords of Dorthonion and his vassals&quot;, Annal 62, Grey Annals, War of the Jewels.
(Note these seperate realms but under Fingolfin).

&quot;This was the second great battle of these wars and was named the Dagor Aglareb... and for a long while after none of the servants of Morgoth would venture from his gates for they feared the kings of the Gnomes&quot;, LR, Quenta Silmarillion, chapter 8 the Siege of Angband.
(Note The Silmarillion uses 'lords of the Noldor', not 'kings of the Gnomes').

&quot;But Maedhros restrained his brothers, and they departed from the council, and soon afterwards they left Mithrim and went eastward beyond Aros to the wide lands about the Hill of Himring. That region was named thereafter the March of Maedhros&quot;, The Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor.

&quot;There [in Nevrast] was for many years the realm of Turgon the was, son of Fingolfin&quot;; and &quot;Thus the sons of Feanor under Maedhros were the lords of East Beleriand&quot;, The Silmarillion, Of Beleriand and its Realms.

&quot;...men of the Edain went away and took service with the kings and lords of the Eldar.&quot;
&quot;Therefore the kings of the three houses of the Noldor, seeing hope of strength in the sons of men.&quot;
&quot;...after some fifty years many thousands had entered the lands of the Kings.&quot;
The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men into the West.

This should be enough to establish that there were indeed several Noldorin kingships, all before the Fall of Fingolfin.

As has been noted it has been argued that this is contradicted by the 'Shibboleth of Feanor' which has the several kingships of the Noldor arising only after Fingolfin's death.

But that is not what it says.
The Shibboleth of Feanor (ca. 1968) says that after the death of Fingolfin: &quot;The Noldor then became divided into seperate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin.&quot;

The difference is clear. The Shibboleth says nothing about the various kingships arising. It speaks of division.

Before the Fall of Fingolfin these Noldorin kingdoms were united.

&quot;Therefore when the council came to the coosing of one to be overlord of the Exiles and the head of all their princes, the choice of all save few fell on Fingolfin&quot;, The Grey Annals.

&quot;[Maedhros, head of the Feanorians] remained for his part in friendship with the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin and would come among them at times for common council&quot;, The Silmarillion and similarily the Gray Annals.

&quot;In this year Fingolfin, King of the Noldor, called a great council, and made a high feast, that was long after remembered as Mereth Aderthad, the Feast of Reuniting... Thither came many of the cheiftains and people of Fingolfin and Inglor [Finrod]; and the sons of Feanor Maidros and Maglor with warriors of the March; [and Cirdan and his folk and other Grey Elves and Nandor from Ossiriand and Mablung and Daeron]. At Mereth Aderthad many counsels were taken in good will and oaths were sworn of league and friendship...&quot;, Annal 20, The Grey Annals and similarly in The Silmarillion.

During the Dagor Aglareb the forces of Fingolfin and Maedhros relieved Dorthonion which felt the main assault of Morgoth's host and was held held by sons of Finarfin. Together they defeated the servants of Morgoth and destroyed the host. After this the princes &quot;... drew closer their leaguer and strengthened and ordered their watch, setting the Seige of Angband...&quot; and because of this Morgoth attempted to &quot;sow fear and disunion among the Eldar&quot;, quotes from The Silmarillion, 'Return of the Noldor. Here we have united Noldo realms defeating Morgoth's host, and Morgoth seeking to cause 'disunion'.

When the Edain came into Beleriand: &quot;Fingolfin, as King of all the Noldor, sent messengers to welcome them; and then many young and eager men o the Edain went away and took service with the kings and lords of the Eldar&quot;, The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of Men. Here again we are shown that though there are various kings Fingolfin as King of all the Noldor welcomes the Edain and only then do they take service.

So we have here the various Noldo kingdoms united, maintaining a leaguer against Morgoth, aiding one another, sworn to friendship. Meanwhile Morgoth seeks to cause disunion.

Fingolfin would like to undertake an attack on Morgoth, but most of the Noldor trusted in their combined leaguer and did not wish to start an assault upon Thangorodrim. Then comes the Dagor Bragollach. Morgoth's hosts &quot;...assaulted the fortresses of the Noldor, and broke the leaguer about Angband...&quot;, &quot;So great was the onslaught of Morgoth that Fingolfin and Fingon could not come to the aid of te sons of Finarfin...&quot;; Dorthonion takes the brunt of the attack and Angrod and Aegnor are slain. Finrod coming to aid from the south is cut off and has to flee back to Nargothrond. Hithlum holds out &quot;but Fingolfin was sundered from his kinsmen by a sea of foes&quot;. The sons of Feanor are also defeated &quot;and well nigh all the east marches were taken&quot;. Celegorm and Curufin flee south and west and eventually take refuge in Nargothrond. While Maedhros holds out on Himring, Lothlann is overwhelmed and the lands east and south are ravaged, Caranthir flees south to Amon Ereb.
Fingolfin seeing the 'utter ruin of the Noldor' goes forth and challenges Morgoth, getting himself killed. Fingon then becomes King of the Noldor though the kingdoms are now broken and isolated. Minas Tirith on TolSirion is attacked and none come to its aid. Orodreth flees to Nargothrond. Morgoth sends out spies &quot;among the peoples, accusing their kings and chieftains of greed and of treachery one to another... these lies were often believed; and indeed as the time darkened they had a measure of truth&quot;. When the Swarthy Men come into Beleriand Fingon is not said to send them messages, though the sons of Feanor take them into service. &quot;When Turgon learned of the breaking of the leaguer of Angband he would not suffer any of his own people to issue forth to war&quot;. Morgoth &quot;desired greatly to learn tidings of Felagund and Turgon. For they had vanished out of knowledge&quot;. Seven years after the Bragollach Morgoth assualts Hithlum and Fingon is sorely pressed and outnumbered. None of kin come to his aid and he is succored by Cirdan and the Falathrim. At the death of Finrod, Orodreth becomes king in Nargothrond and drives out Celegorm and Curufin.
Quotes from The Silmarillion, Of the Ruin of Beleriand.

Here the Noldor are divided into seperate kingships (with Fingon as the nominal High King).

So we have gone from united (if independent) kings and kingdoms before the Dagor Bragollach, to divided and isolated kingdoms of the Noldor after the death of Fingolfin.

Even Maedhros recognizes this. After Beren and Luthien take a Silmaril: &quot;In those days Maedhros son of Feanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Luthien were sung in many songs throuout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, if THEY could not AGAIN UNITE, and make NEW LEAGUE and common council&quot;, The Silmarillion, Of the Fifth Battle, The Nirnaeth Arnoediad, [my emphasis].


The Shibboleth of Feanor (ca. 1968) says that after the death of Fingolfin: &quot;The Noldor then became divided into seperate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin.&quot;

This does not contradict the Silmarillion and its related sources which have various (united) kingships of the Noldor starting after the choosing of Fingolfin as High King, and which become seperate and divided after the Fall of Fingolfin.



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Old 03-25-2001, 04:18 AM   #7
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Re: the debate turns canonical

Aiwendil related;&quot;<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Personal preferences and opinions should not be what a canonical
Silmarillion is based upon. Aside from the main point that this is
Tolkien's work and not ours (and thus, it is only his opinions that
should be considered), there is also the matter of differing tastes.
I, for instance, find the later Q.S. story in which Feanor and
Fingolfin were, at least in words, reconciled, to be more poignant.
If there is to be any attempt at a single canonical Silm., then it
must be based not on anyone's opinions and preferences, but on
textual continuity and faithfulness to <hr></blockquote>
Unfortunately , the end of your sentence seemd to get chopped off, but there are several points prior which I will comment on.

re: personal preferences, Agreed One [or a group] should have a set of coherent principles.I do think several valid approaches and goals could be pursued.

1]saulotus a past poster here favored and had indeed worked up a good many Myth's Transformed chapters for a new silmarillion. It was all based on solid principles. Use the last conceptions regardless the literary cost.
2] an elfwine / eriol / england Silmarillion

3] An old/flat world Silmarillion that uses latest conceptions and longer resencions and older detail not contradicting later compressed versions, whenever they can be worked in w/ out devastation to the general story.
for instance Galadriel can still depart seperately but w/ out Celebrimbor as this would countradict LotR.
Druedain can be inserted into 1st age.
This is the favored approach of the project here although no final decisions have been reached, we have drafts of 1/2 of the Darkening of Valinor.

I think refering to your post Aiwendil that you think the Shib. conception of the departureof the Noldor is incompatible w/ the Morgoth's Ring version
[In my conception War of the Jewels and Morgoth's Ring become the primary sources [and Lost Road as needed] not 77 [as the Silmarillion published in that year is often called here]. there are potential exceptions, but in general The entirity of the scenario in Valinor would come from X and be supplemented w/ sourceslike Shibboleth or Quendi and Eldar or even [rarely] Lost tales when additional detail/later conceptions can be worked in w/ out recourse to editorial glosses or creative writing.

Tar - Elenion seems to simply and ingeniously propose using both Feanor's 'reconciliation' w/ Fingolfin and retain Shibboleth's conception of Fingolfin refussing to relinquish the claim.
At first blush I found this unmanagable but after Elenion clarified the point and I can see that the 2 situations may well be reconciled by the fact that Fingolfin promised to follow in the context of Finwe being alive. [ Feanor nontheless felt betrayedI am sure though much of Fingolfin's motivation was prob. that his people made it clear they felt Feanor was prob. to ubstable to rule the Noldor] .


I have been pondering if others are interested a weekly Canon topic that would be an aside from writing text but would actually investigate [and yes lindil is contemplating it a poll] 1 issue of the canon as we are doing now [and have done sporadically and only semi-methodically- in the past] The Origin of Orcs thred is a good example as are a few others.

Any takers?
Any modifications to the idea?

I agree btw whole heartedly w/ your points on choosing canon and texts carefully, Elenion. There is so much in UT and HoME that fills in the inumerable gaps of the Silm [77] and even the final versions of X and XI that all available resources should be up for consideration both for a new Silmarillion and for establishing a canon of 'ideas/details' .




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-25-2001, 09:17 AM   #8
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Re: the debate turns canonical

I am not a contributor to this labour, but if I may interject an opinion: &quot;Don't do such things by poll.&quot;

You learned folk can reach a consensus without such an easily biased contrivance.

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Old 03-25-2001, 09:23 AM   #9
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Re: the debate turns canonical

Quote: &lt;&lt;there are potential exceptions, but in general The entirity of the scenario in Valinor would come from X and be supplemented w/ sourceslike Shibboleth or Quendi and Eldar or even [rarely] Lost tales when additional detail/later conceptions can be worked in w/ out recourse to editorial glosses or creative writing.&gt;&gt;

I agree wholeheartedly with this approach. As a matter of fact, I had been considering doing something of this sort myself before I recently stumbled upon this forum. I see no reason that certain small contradictions between works like the Q.S. and the Shibboleth should preclude the use of both in a coherent narrative. I do think that much of the Shibboleth can be coherently incorporated - the material on naming, the excursus on the descendants of Finwe, and the matter of &quot;th&quot; vs. &quot;s&quot;. This last, I would say, is the primary content of the Shibboleth. However, it seems to me that the disagreement between Feanor and Fingolfin, really a minor and casual reference in relation to the essay itself, cannot be introduced from the Shibboleth, as it contradicts the Q.S.

Quote: &lt;&lt;At first blush I found this unmanagable but after Elenion clarified the point and I can see that the 2 situations may well be reconciled by the fact that Fingolfin promised to follow in the context of Finwe being alive. [ Feanor nontheless felt betrayedI am sure though much of Fingolfin's motivation was prob. that his people made it clear they felt Feanor was prob. to ubstable to rule the Noldor] .&gt;&gt;

But there is no indication in the Q.S. of such a context. Fingolfin is declaring his loyalty not to Finwe but to Feanor: &quot;You shall lead and I shall follow.&quot; To take this and construct a way to include both it and the debate from the Shibboleth is to change the meaning of Tolkien's words.



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Old 03-25-2001, 11:45 AM   #10
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Re: the debate turns canonical

Greetings Giltahlion andAiwendil,

G: you are of course right about polls [it might prove useful if we hadmuch larger #'s than we do but w/ anything below say 12 , you are right , I don't know what came over me.<img src=smile.gif ALT="">
Aiwendil : Glad to meet another ponderer of Canon.
I am doubly glad that you find much of the methodologies we are considering/working with in accord w/ your views.
Feel free to poke around more, in the Forum the last 12 or so threads/topics are I think the most relevant to the project. Esp. Unofficial outline [4.<img src=alien.gif ALT="0]"> is the latest although I am sorely due for an update.
The ' Literary devices and such' is old but illustrates some of the components of our thought.
The 'DoV/texts and discussions' has our 1/2 of the Darkening of Valinor and it's attendant discussion/debate.
'Common usage of Common usage of abbreviations and such' is what it is.
Regrouping the rules /Rev. Silmarillion Proj.' contains such as there is of our Rules of Order.
We have so far managed to keep all debate here so civil that I as moderator have only to try and keep this Byzantine tangle of idea's and threads managable. [knock ,knock].

I will hope Tar- Elenion can answer for his concept [Maintaining both Fingolfin reconciling -which I do agree is a major peice of the storyline - and Fingolfin's pursuit of the Kingship of the noldor ] which Aiwendil debates as I may have misconstrued a point and he will certainly answer for it better than I .
I would only add that we don't know how JRRT was conceiving the 2 situations in his mind. Wether he had stumbled upon Elenion's idea or wether he forgot. Maybe a letter to CRT? <img src=smile.gif ALT="">


Glad to have you discussing w/ us Aiwendil , there are many things I would love your feedback on, so please do not get the impression that there is some party line you must pull to stay around.





Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-25-2001, 02:01 PM   #11
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Re: the debate turns canonical

----------------------------------
Quothe Aiwendil:
------------------
Quote: [Lindil writes] &lt;&lt;At first blush I found this unmanagable but after Elenion clarified the point and I can see that the 2 situations may well be reconciled by the fact that Fingolfin promised to follow in the context of Finwe being alive. [ Feanor nontheless felt betrayedI am sure though much of Fingolfin's motivation was prob. that his people made it clear they felt Feanor was prob. to ubstable to rule the Noldor] .&gt;&gt;
Aiwendil responds:
But there is no indication in the Q.S. of such a context. Fingolfin is declaring his loyalty not to Finwe but to Feanor: &quot;You shall lead and I shall follow.&quot; To take this and construct a way to include both it and the debate from the Shibboleth is to change the meaning of Tolkien's words.
----------------

Quothe lindil:
I will hope Tar- Elenion can answer for his concept [Maintaining both Fingolfin reconciling -which I do agree is a major peice of the storyline - and Fingolfin's pursuit of the Kingship of the noldor ] which Aiwendil debates as I may have misconstrued a point and he will certainly answer for it better than I .
I would only add that we don't know how JRRT was conceiving the 2 situations in his mind. Wether he had stumbled upon Elenion's idea or wether he forgot. Maybe a letter to CRT?
------------------------------------

I see no serious problems. Fingolfin said 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow' before Finwe was dead, and before Feanor claimed the kingship. In context Fingolfin's statement has nothing to do with Feanor's 'kingship' (or lack thereof). Neither of them knew that Finwe would die (or expected him to). One of the reasons that there was such dissention over the inheritance of the Kingship is that the Kingship of the Noldor had not passed before (excepting that when Finwe held himself 'unkinged' Fingolfin took up the rule, not necesarily kingship, of the Noldor), and there seemingly were no clear rules of inheritance. While I think Feanor certainly had 'better claim' to the Kingship that was Finwe's, being the eldest of the House, it was his own actions that impaired his rights and position. It is simply fact that Feanor's claims were not accepted by the most part of the Noldor. During Feanor's banishment and Finwe's self imposed exile the actual rule of the Noldor (if not the titular Kingship) had already passed. Feanor's own presumptive actions after the death of Finwe (as well as those before) cost him his chance to actually become King, and Fingolfin's position could not be supplanted (though of course he did not become King in name until after the death of Feanor).

This is what is said regarding the 'you will lead'
It is noted in HoME 10, LQ1, ~73: &quot;'The greater part marched behind Fingolfin, who with his sons yielded to the general voice against their wisdom, because they would not desert their people' my father noted on a copy of LQ 2: 'also because of the promise made by Fingolfin above)'. This refers to a passage in the final rewriting of the previous chapter (p. 287, ~58c), where Fingolfin said to Feanor before Manwe 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow.'&quot;

Here Fingolfin follows Feanor into Exile because of his promise and because he will not desert his people (who do not renounce his rule). Again the context is clear from authorial notes in the corpus. Fingolfin keeps his 'word' ('they were reconciled in word') by following Feanor into Exile. But note that even at this point Feanor is not recognized as King. The just prior sentences note that the most part of the Noldor refuse to accept Feanor as king and do not renounce the rule of Fingolfin. What is important note here is that Fingolfin accepts this while still keeping his word and following the lead of Feanor.

This is in fact commented on in the Shibboleth: &quot;(after Morgoth contrived the death of Finwe) Feanor was deprived of the leadership, and the greater part of the Noldor who forsook Valinor marched under the command of Fingolfin... and in the end in spite of the enimty between him and Feanor he joined with full will in the rebellion and the exile, though he continued to claim the kingship of all the Noldor.&quot;

Compare with the MR passages:
&quot;By no means were all of a mind to take Feanor as king... and the most part of the Dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him [Fingolfin], if he would go with them&quot;, Annals of Aman.
and:
&quot;The greater part marched behind Fingolfin, who with his sons yielded to the general voice against their wisdom, because they would not desert their people&quot;, LQ.

In both MR and the Shibboleth the greater part of the Noldor, accept the rule of Fingolfin and do not accept Feanor's claims. Note that the Shibboleth has that Fingolfin joined with 'full will' though MR has him yeilding against his wisdom. However this is not a contradiction. 'In the end' he joins with 'full will'. That is though first speaking against Feanor (and note even here so much for 'you will lead', and showing the enimity spoken of in Shibboleth) only when it becomes clear what his people want does he goes along with it. Also note that the Shibboleth has Fingolfin claiming the Kingship. It is true that The Silmarillion does not speak of this claim. But it does not deny it. And note that though Fingolfin spoke against Feanor, he went with the Noldor who would not renounce him 'if he would go with them'. This seems to me that by accepting the decision of the people (he does not renounce them, he does not say 'Feanor is king', he goes with them and they 'the greater host come behind under Fingolfin'.

'Thou shalt lead and I will follow', when examined in full context it is shown that Fingolfin was not swearing loyalty to Feanor (or perhaps rather promising to accept the kingship of Feanor). If he was swearing loyalty (or rather to accept Feanor as King, though there was no plausable reason for this) he was not very good at keeping his word. In any event JRRT seemed to imply that by simply following Feanor into Exile ('also because of the promise made'), Fingolfin was keeping his word.
Feanor and Fingolfin were reconciled in _word_, not in deed.




Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 3/25/01 6:05:46 pm
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Old 03-25-2001, 02:57 PM   #12
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Re: the debate turns canonical

I would add the small footnote of Fingolfin's promising to' follow' reffered [in context] to being the second son and acknowledging that feanor should have first place after Finwe . He may even have been acknowledging a bit of responsibility for not bringing his complaints against Feanor to the council about to meet as feanor indeed charged.




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-25-2001, 05:18 PM   #13
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Re: the debate turns canonical

------------------------
Quote:
I would add the small footnote of Fingolfin's promising to' follow' reffered [in context] to being the second son and acknowledging that feanor should have first place after Finwe.
--------------------------------

This is not unlikely, given of course that there was no reason to think that Feanor would become King any time soon, since there was no reason to believe that Finwe would die. While when Fingolfin made his promise it obviously had nothing to do with physically following Feanor (as no one thought they would be going to leave Aman), this is just how JRRT seemed to suggest Fingolfin kept his promise (or justified his interpretation on how to keep his promise).

---------------------------------
Quote:
He may even have been acknowledging a bit of responsibility for not bringing his complaints against Feanor to the council about to meet as feanor indeed charged.
----------------------------------

I am missing your point.
Please clarify.




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Old 03-25-2001, 05:21 PM   #14
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Re: the debate turns canonical

lindil: Thank you for the suggestions on what threads to look at. I'd certainly like to give feedback where and I can and have some input into this.

Tar-elenion: As I think about it more, your idea starts to make some more sense. If it were used, though, it would have to be done carefully. I still don't think that Fingolfin would have outright claimed the high kingship, at least not before Alqualonde and/or Feanor's abandonment of his host. Certainly there was strife between them during the whole Darkening of Valinor episode. Nonetheless, any narrative incorporating the material in the Shibboleth would have to be very careful not to contradict Fingolfin's oath, in words or in spirit.

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Old 03-25-2001, 07:19 PM   #15
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Re: the debate turns canonical

----------------------
Quothe Aiwendil:
Tar-elenion: As I think about it more, your idea starts to make some more sense.
--------------------------

Thank you. Did you read the Aragorn's Ancestors thread, where this originated in? Though long and involved, it probably offers more overall clarity as well as a more specifically opposing veiw.

-------------------------------
Quote:
If it were used, though, it would have to be done carefully.
--------------------------------

Certainly, that is why I emphasize looking over the full context (for example when I point out that JRRT never said Feanor was 'The King', only that he 'claimed' the kingship and this was not generally accepted, and even after he claims it, Feanor, when speaking of himself, does not refer to himself as King, only 'heir' (it could be argued that he realized he needed a more general acceptance (such as Fingolfin received after the rescue of Maedhros) before he could actually solidify (as it were) his claim into a fact).


----------------------------------------
Quote:
I still don't think that Fingolfin would have outright claimed the high kingship, at least not before Alqualonde and/or Feanor's abandonment of his host. Certainly there was strife between them during the whole Darkening of Valinor episode.
------------------------------------------

The time reference that JRRT gives us is:
&quot;Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwe to Nolofinwe before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance to his claim to be the cheiftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwe...&quot;
So we have a timeframe of between the death of Finwe and before the Helcaraxe is crossed. This is however narrowed in the next part:
&quot;...and so enraged Feanor that it was no doubt one of the reason s for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships.&quot;
So Fingolfin prefixed 'Finwe' to his name before Feanor fled with the ships of the Teleri. But he does this to further pursue his claim (thus he had been claiming the before the prefixing).
Finwe is slain and the Kinslaying takes place in 1495 (the Kinslaying seemingly very late and it seems to follow soon upon the Noldor leaving Tirion), Feanor abandons Fingolfin in 1497. The Noldor are noted to have set out from Tirion in over haste after the speech of Feanor, but as soon as they are gathered for their setting out dissention arises and most will not accept Feanor's leadership, prefering Fingolfin. It seems to me the Fingolfin would not have started claiming the Kingship until after the dissention arose when Feanor attempted to marshal the Noldor, and the Noldor said, as it were, 'who is Feanor that he should command us, we want Fingolfin to continue ruling us, if he will come'. At this point there are effectively two hosts, Feanor and his loyalists in the van, and the larger host under Fingolfin. Feanor realizing they will need ships quickly makes his way to Alqualonde, where he is refused, and takes the ships by storm. The rapidity of the events make it seem unlikely that Fingolfin would have been actively pursuing his claim at that point. It is likely after the 'Kinslaying' (and the likely more open discontent with Feanor that resulted) that Fingolfin began to actively put forth his claim. But it may well have been in mind since the majority of the Noldor did not accept Feanor's initial claim remained firmly behind Fingolfin.

------------------------------------
Quote:
Nonetheless, any narrative incorporating the material in the Shibboleth would have to be very careful not to contradict Fingolfin's oath, in words or in spirit.
-------------------------------------

Keeping in mind what JRRT wrote on the matter (implying that Finglfin was keeping his oath merely by going into Exile with Feanor).
Of course also depending on exactly what was meant by the Fingolfin's oath, he could well have been contradicting it himself when &quot;Fingolfin and Turgon his son therefore spoke against Feanor, and fierce words awoke, so that once again wrath came near to the edge of swords&quot;.


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Old 03-26-2001, 01:58 AM   #16
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Re: the debate turns canonical

I had said:[ the initial He = Fingolfin]
He may even have been acknowledging a bit of responsibility for
not bringing his complaints against Feanor to the council about to
meet as feanor indeed charged.
----------------------------------

Tar Elenion replied: I am missing your point. <img src=frown.gif ALT="">
Please clarify. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">


On page 69 [last paragraph] of The Silm [hb] we read :'Then there was great unrest in Tirion and Finwe was troubled and he summoned all his lords to council. But fingolin hastened to his halls and stood before him saying....

and in X
LQ2 52e p.278 adds feanor sayingHe would not wait not wait for the council where all words would beheard by all and answered.'


A reasonable accusation accompanied by pride and threats though iit is.






Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-26-2001, 11:01 PM   #17
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Re: the debate turns canonical

Ah, I think I see what you are saying (I was not sure what council you were referring to). But yes Feanor's charge before Finwe &quot;...my half-brother would be before me with my father in this as in all other matters... This I will not brook.&quot; &quot;Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father.&quot;
Could well have something to do with Fingolfin attempting to assure Feanor that he would not try to come between him and Finwe.


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Old 03-27-2001, 08:43 AM   #18
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Re: the debate turns canonical

Tar -Elenion [and all] I will be working on a version 5.3 of the 'unofficial outline of the new Silmarillion ' [see thread of similar title ] and would greatly appreciate feedback, amendation,deletion, etc. to help move it closer to a an outline that will cover all major changes to the texts.
Version 4.0 is up on page 2 of the thread I believe, and will be the basis.

I am hoping this might be a more bite-sized project that those who are interested, but do not have the time &amp;/or inclination to a larger editing project will be able to provide oft valuable input.
Any help much appreciated.








Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 03-28-2001, 05:53 PM   #19
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Re: Kings, Kingdoms et. al.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. Stop anaylizing each other's posting methods/motives! The next reply that addresses the argument in any way (or even addresses my comments) will cause this otherwise worthy topic to be locked. Geesh!



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Old 03-28-2001, 07:23 PM   #20
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Re: Kings, Kingdoms et. al.

remember not a peep<img src=wink.gif ALT=""> mod edit

Assuming we were to follow Tar-elenion's idea of combining the Shibboleth material with the later Q.S., how exactly would this be achieved? Obviously, the promise of Fingolfin to Feanor will still be included. What will be said of Fingolfin's claim to the high kingship, and where will it be said? I don't believe anything to this effect should be placed before the kinslaying; at most, I think slipping in the bit of dialogue from the Shibboleth after the kinslaying could work, but the finished narrative must make it clear that Fingolfin has not broken his oath, and that it is Feanor who committed the first wrong.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 3/28/01 8:57:25 pm
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Old 03-28-2001, 07:30 PM   #21
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Tabla rasa

I hope to facilitate discussion by a thorough house cleaning .

I believe the issue at hand was how a possible inclusion of some of the material of Shibboleth of Feanor could effect the creation of a new silmarillion [and how indeed it did effect CRT's 77] there were other sub points that don't immed. occur to me. I will try and fetch them from the garbage soon.

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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 3/28/01 8:37:31 pm
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Old 03-28-2001, 07:32 PM   #22
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Re: Kings, Kingdoms et. al.

You cannot have Fingolfin claiming the kingship before Feanor betrays him. Tolkien's Elves, especially their princes, put a lot of power into their words. Either you drop Fingolfin's vow to follow Feanor before Manwe or you assign him the claim of kingship at the first point in the history where his vow would be rendered null by Feanor's actions.

But by that point you already have two kingships: Finarfin's and Feanor's. So Fingolfin can only claim to be one king of three, though king of the largest group of Noldor. He might deem Feanor to be in abdication of his claims on Finwe's authority since Feanor had abandoned the greater part of the Noldor.

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Old 04-01-2001, 03:26 PM   #23
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a return to normalcy

I have reopened the Thread to calm warm-hearted debate.I trust that anything which even seems to be outside of that will not be posted here. Enough said, I pray.

your unworthy moderator




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>
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Old 04-01-2001, 04:53 PM   #24
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Re: a return to normalcy

Having to rebut comments which were locked is not convenient. I see the edits, but the account of the debate over Dior is extremely erroneous.

Dior did not inherit any kingdom from Thingol. Tolkien stated unambiguously that Dior reestablished the realm of Doriath. What Dior called himself, &quot;Thingol's Heir&quot;, doesn't reflect the reality of the storyline, which is that he inherited nothing from Thingol.

And I showed that quite conclusively by citing numerous texts.

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Old 04-01-2001, 10:29 PM   #25
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normalcy or nothing

I propose that you, Michael and Tar-Elenion call the Dior debate finished [ even if still disputed] .It seems to me that the facts and opinions have been presented and it is a differing of semantics. Even if I am wrong I sense lingering feelings that simply do not belong here.

I will repeat one last time that I am very serious about maintaing a peaceful tone at the forum.
Please Email me [or whoever you wish!] w/ any concerns of expression that is not appropriate here.

lindil




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Old 04-01-2001, 11:33 PM   #26
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Re: normalcy or nothing

Lindil, had I really wanted to revisit the debate I would have reposted a lot of the discussions. Even if they didn't make it into the online archives, I still have all the old White Council discussions archived.

At some future time it may be beneficial for your project if we revisit the Dior issue fresh, providing current citations, and rehashing the whole thing again. I was simply under the impression this topic would stay locked, and I was satisfied with that.

You know how unreliable I am at long-term discussion. I can't even stay involved continuously on my own forums. I'm just too busy any more.

I'll continue to lurk here and pop in on occasional threads which seem to be more pertinent to whatever sections you're working on.

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Old 04-02-2001, 12:41 AM   #27
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Re: normalcy or nothing

I look forward to it, although I am fast approaching a need for a 2nd major hiatus it seems, a new set of Jobs, career shift, moving and a series of tests all falling at the same time, [notto mention dealing with the flood of posts at Osanwe-Kenta <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> .
But I will let folks know soon what is up.


BTW folks Michaels latest essay at suite 101 is an excellent foray into Kingship and such [of arnor and the chieftans of the dunedain] ,




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Old 04-02-2001, 01:04 AM   #28
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Re: normalcy or nothing

Heck, it's a historic essay, too. I have made a complete turnaround on the issue of feudalism in Middle-earth.

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Old 04-02-2001, 01:38 PM   #29
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Re: open again?


lindil:
I will leave off the 'Dior debate' unless you want to see it open here (I am not sure that it is a 'canon' matter in any event). Or perhaps Michael can simply post a link to the thread in the 'White Council' archives.

Otherwise: should I take it that it is all right to respond to points brought up in a couple of the more 'on topic' recent posts?

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Old 04-02-2001, 04:09 PM   #30
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Re: open again?

please, all are welcome to post.


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Old 04-03-2001, 04:30 PM   #31
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Re: Kings, Kingdoms et. al.

-----------------------------------
Quothe Michael Michael Martinez::
You cannot have Fingolfin claiming the kingship before Feanor betrays him.
-------------------------------------

If by Feanor's betrayal you are refering to his desertion of Fingolfin et.al. at Araman, then JRRT has already stated that Fingolfin asserted his claim before that point, and said that one of Feanor's reasons for deserting Fingolfin was because of that claim made by Fingolfin.


-----------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Tolkien's Elves, especially their princes, put a lot of power into their words.
-----------------------------------

If by this you are refering to the keeping of oaths you are correct. However this is not absolute. There are several cases of 'their princes', either not keeping their oaths in spirit or in word (one the other or both that is ). For example, Maedhros broke his covenant by bringing a greater force than he had promised to the parley with Morgoth; Turgon on the death of Aredhel had Eol slain, though it seems he had said, to Idril and Aredhel, that he would show mercy, before Aredhel died; Thingol kept his oath to Luthien by not slaying Beren outright, but he sent out Beren to his death (or so it was presumed). And then there is Fingolfin who though having just said his oath to Feanor, spoke against Feanor (to nearly the point of violence) in the assembly that followed Finwe's death (and it is implied that he may not have gone along at all, save at the askance of the Noldor who would not renounce him).

---------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Either you drop Fingolfin's vow to follow Feanor before Manwe or you assign him the claim of kingship at the first point in the history where his vow would be rendered null by Feanor's actions.

Quothe Aiwendil:
but the finished narrative must make it clear that Fingolfin has not broken his oath
-----------------------------------------

JRRT already says that Fingolfin was claiming the kingship of the Noldor before Feanor deserted him (see above for quotes or see the Shibboleth). JRRT already gives the answer of how Fingolfin kept his 'vow to follow Feanor. It is noted in HoME 10, LQ1, ~73: &quot;'The greater part marched behind Fingolfin, who with his sons yielded to the general voice against their wisdom, because they would not desert their people' my father noted on a copy of LQ 2: 'also because of the promise made by Fingolfin above)'. This refers to a passage in the final rewriting of the previous chapter (p. 287, ~58c), where Fingolfin said to Feanor before Manwe 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow.'&quot;
The author indicates here that Fingolfin was keeping his vow by simply and literally following Feanor. No mention is made of submitting to Feanor, and in fact the opposite is implied. Fingolfin, despite his vow, spoke out against Feanor following the death of Finwe. And of course note that Fingolfin would not desert his people (these being the Noldor of Tirion did not accede to the rule of Feanor and would not renounce the rule of Fingolfin. There is no reason to drop the vow, for JRRT has ingeniously shown how it is kept. There is no reason drop JRRT's having Fingolfin claim the kingship, since it is not contradictory, and further explains why JRRT does not say Feanor was King of all the Noldor but only claimed the title (and this can be considered in light of JRRT's statement that Feanor was deprived of the leadership of the Noldor after Finwe's death).. It also explains why Feanor referred to himself as 'heir' of the King, and not 'the King' despite already having claimed the kingship.



---------------------------------
Quothe Aiwendil:
Obviously, the promise of Fingolfin to Feanor will still be included. What will be said of Fingolfin's claim to the high kingship, and where will it be said? I don't believe anything to this effect should be placed before the kinslaying; at most, I think slipping in the bit of dialogue from the Shibboleth after the kinslaying could work, but the finished narrative must make it clear that Fingolfin has not broken his oath, and that it is Feanor who committed the first wrong.
-----------------------------------

As I think I pointed out previously the events from the just after the death of Finwe to the Kinslaying seem to take place in a relatively short time. It does not seem likely that Fingolfin would have had a real oppertunity to pursue his claim until after the Kinslaying. Of course they may well have been thoughts of it or even words about it when the most part of the Noldor indicated they would not accept Feanor and would not renounce Fingolfin if Fingolfin came with them. Of course the first wrong was already done by Feanor, as is noted, and it was the actions of Feanor himself that deprived him of the rule of the Noldor upon his father's death.


Now there are some actual 'contradictions' in the Shibboleth, perhaps some of those should be discussed?

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Old 04-16-2001, 12:44 PM   #32
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Re: Kings, Kingdoms et. al.

I see some great minds at work here. very detailed discussions.

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>
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Old 09-11-2002, 06:34 PM   #33
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