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Old 04-10-2001, 05:54 AM   #1
lindil
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* * * * I will leave this thread with you all as I shall be posting very little in the coming month.
I do hope to peep in regularly , but my time due to finishing shool, moving and starting a new job will be limited.

So ...
A general question to generate a bit of discussion I hope. The reply can be specific to a sentence as in Fingolfin's words before Feanor and Manwe or general as in 'I would put all the second and third age stories into one long tale, or can be more hypothetical,or should all spelling of Orcs be Orks etc. ?' It is a wide open topic and if any particular question decelops fully it can of course be spun off to form it's own thread

I will start with a query, could there be an appendices of 'Legends of uncertain authenticity' this could contain for instance the Aelfwine coming to Tol Eressea and learning of the stories? the second prophecy concerning Turin and Morgoth.? there are several strands that were left out of later versions but still hold value and interest so perhaps the could be placed in an appendix.
Any thoughts on this or other type proposals?

A second one -
Should the Tale of the Children of Hurin and a longer Fall of Gondolin [salvaging much of the Lost Tales version w/ name updates] be given in a full version in the Silmarillion text or as CRT compressed it w/ the 'full' version available in an app. ?

a third one
CRT basically left out many of the changes in the Morgoth's Ring version of the silmarillion [the latest version of JRRT] for seeming stylistic discrepancies, is there a good reason to retain the condensed versioons or should the final one be used as the prmary text.









Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 4/10/01 1:21:13 pm
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Old 04-11-2001, 06:57 AM   #2
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Re: What should be changed in a New Silmarillion?

Good questions.

First query: I think that if anything of the Aelfwine story is kept, it is probably best not to place it in an appendix, but to make it explicit. The question here is the transmission of the legends, which raises some problems. Even after Tolkien had decided that these were Numenorean legends passed on through Elrond to Bilbo in his &quot;Translations from Elvish&quot;, he kept writing things using the Pengolodh-Aelfwine framework. But I think it's necessary to decide on one of these two methods of transmission - CRT seems to have chosen the Bilbo method.

About the second prophecy of Mandos: At no point in his life did JRRT intend the complete absence of this prophecy (the result we have in the 77). It is frequently argued that he changed his mind on the prophecy and that it cannot be considered canon in any way. However, when he did change his mind, it was not to eliminate the prophecy, but merely to alter it. He decided that Turin would come back at the end of the first age to slay Ancalagon. This obviously presents great problems for the narrative: in the previous versions, Earendil slays Ancalagon; I have to agree with CRT that this older story should be followed, and the later prophecy about Turin not introduced. However, if we go back to that far in his conception of the Great Battle, then we go back to a point where he did consider the prophecy of Turin canon.

Many are fond of saying that in Tolkien's late works there is no prophecy about the end of Arda. There is, though. In his essay on the Istari, found in UT, there is a fragment of alliterative verse that very clearly mentions the Dagor Dagorath as the ending of the world. Thus, it seems, he never even abandoned this idea. To leave out the prophecy would cleary contradict everything Tolkien wrote.

Second query: This is a matter I tried to bring up before; it's really a question of what you intend this Silmarillion to be. If this is to be THE &quot;Quenta Silmarillion&quot;, then the longer tales cannot be kept. Tolkien never intended them to be; these were the longer stories from which the Silmarillion was drawn. If this is to be merely a chronological compilation of everything canonical - that is, a canonical history of the Elder Days that does not purport to be THE Silmarillion, then the longer tales should be kept. However, in the latter case, I would say that ALL the longer stuff should be kept - the Athrabeth, Laws and Customs, the Statute of Finwe and Miriel, Aldarion and Erendis (if a second age history is to be attempted), etc. What's the point of having appendices if the whole book is really one large appendix?

Third: I think that most of the editorial changes he made from the stuff in Morgoth's Ring was unnecessary. The Silmarillion already varies greatly in style - from the beautiful heights of the Ainulindale to the dark narratives of Turin and Tuor. I don't think its a problem to keep these changes.

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Old 05-28-2001, 05:38 PM   #3
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Re: What should be changed in a New Silmarillion?

It is reasonably common for chronicles and histories to be expanded by later scribes who insert fuller material into their source either as supplements or replacements.

I would imagine then an original Quenta Silmarillion which has then been expaned by later scribes, inserting verse about Beren and Lúthien, the Narn i Chîn Húrin, Wanderings of Húrin, and the story of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin in full, and also other material at appropriate places.

I would think that this kind of expanded work is what most would like to read. If any version of an incident goes into an Appendix it would normally be a short version. This would be presented as a compilation of First Age literature and commentary, containing the long tales linked by Quenta Silmarillion joining passages and other scribal notes and commentaries and excerpts from other sources.

The work would not have to make clear which passages were from the longer works and which from the actual Quenta Silmarillion any more than real world manuscripts of this kind do in many cases. Scholars can only speculate on which material belongs to which source, what is original and what is a late addition, except in such cases as individual source documents are otherwise known.

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Old 06-02-2001, 09:13 PM   #4
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Re: What should be changed in a New Silmarillion?

Welcome to the Silm forum Jallanite.
Very logical and sensible view - even if it does suit my tastes!
I hope you are interested in watching/participating in the shaping of a New Silm, here.


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Old 03-14-2002, 01:51 AM   #5
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Quote:
could there be an appendices of 'Legends of uncertain authenticity'
I think this is a fabulous idea! You see, if we try to put every version of every story throughout tolkien's years of writting, all together in the main part of the Silmarilion, we'd end up with a huge book that was fairly confusing and not as enjoyable to read. I think we should be expanding on the stories like with the fall of gondolin, but only expanding on the stories themselves. Should we explain the origins and meanings of each elf's name as we come to it? Should we point out the geneology of each person when they marry? etc, you should get my point. That is what an appendix is for, such things would only clutter the story.

Quote:
Should the Tale of the Children of Hurin and a longer Fall of Gondolin [salvaging much of the Lost Tales version w/ name updates] be given in a full version in the Silmarillion text or as CRT compressed it w/ the 'full' version available in an app. ?
Same thing here, tell the stories as fully as we can, just don't try to turn it into a 'lecture as we go'.
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Old 03-17-2002, 01:08 PM   #6
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The only thing that should be changed is how difficult it is to read! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 03-17-2002, 04:02 PM   #7
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I know where you're coming from Mungo. See, in the beginning the Silmarilion was written more like the Lord of the Rings. There was this guy named Eriol who was an adventurer and he found his way to a city of Elves. He stayed in the house of one and during his time there they told all sorts of tales about the history of elves and men, these tales are pretty much what's found in the Silmarilion. So instead of it being an third person history book, it was more first person, not unlike some of "The Council of Elrond"

For whatever reasons, tolkien seems to have abandoned this idea completely. I think it would be neat if we could do this silmarilion revision and have a version like the Silmarilion is now, but also make a version with the storytelling theme, but the later could only be accomplished via fan fiction and that would defeat the purpose of 'canon.' Might be a good fan fiction though.

oblo: shhhhh! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 03-17-2002, 07:30 PM   #8
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Great to see all of the emthusiasm Mhoram.

I in some thread or another put forth the idea that a 'canonical' or rather revised Silm incorporating the vast amouts of non-integrated material in HoME and UT could then be a pring board for a completely independent Fan-fiction project which can complete gaps [Hurin's wanderings from Brethil to Menegroth for example] and of course largely uncharted area's such as the Elven winegrowers of Dorthonion or the Wars of Arthedain. These would be based on a coherent Rev. Silm or I should say Translations from the Elvish[w/ the 2nd and third ages presented in brief in Akallabeth and of the Rings of power, and in oiur version fleshed out w/ UT, HoME12 and the LotR appendices.]

Anyway, I think the revising of the 'Silm' or Translations of the Elvish as I would prefer to call it, [[because I imagine 1/2 of the 3 volumes would be the appendices to the Silm [Osanwe-Kenta, Quendi and Eldar, Laws and Customs, Athrabeth commentary, and some sort of Elvish word and stem list , and the 2nd and 3rd ages up to the LotR]] should be the basis of any large scale Fan-Fiction.

just my opinion,
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Old 03-23-2003, 07:00 PM   #9
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Put the genealogies at the FRONT!!! I went through the entire thing very confused. Today I finished the book and there they were. That made me slightly angry (not to mention that I felt really dumb for not checking the index.) But they would be really good at the front of the book--behind the map or something.
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Old 03-24-2003, 08:28 AM   #10
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not to mention that I felt really dumb for not checking the index

Hmmm yes, I can understand your frustrations.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

You may be onto something with having the genealogies up front. Right after the table of contents would make sense though highly unusual.
And welcome to the Downs and TftE forum Roccari!.

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 03-24-2003, 01:17 PM   #11
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This is very inspecific, and I don't know if this is the type of thing you meant by your question, but I would put in more about the Music of the Ainur.
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Old 03-24-2003, 03:12 PM   #12
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Well Galadriel, there is not much more Ainulindale to put in! Though what bits were left out of the last version has been re-included excepting the occurences of Aelfwine.

We can only add according to our principles [see that thread] and from what JRRT wrote. No Fan-Fiction here.


Perhaps however there is a conflation of projects in your mind?

There is side by side to the work now also another project, a guide of sorts that I am working on with a couple of others that has no relationship to TftE at all except that the membes of both frequent the downs and in particular this forum.

Also the Ainulindale of TftE/the revised Silmarillion is nearly done, if not done and may be made available in some form for a brief period coming up.

Whereas the Ainulinddale 'entry' for the guide being worked on is still in it's infant stages. As the thread 'Can anyone speak to the physics of the Ainulindale?' and it's links in the books forum show.

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 03-24-2003, 03:44 PM   #13
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There is side by side to the work now also another project, a guide of sorts that I am working on with a couple of others that has no relationship to TftE at all except that the membes of both frequent the downs and in particular this forum.
which project Lindil ?
explain please.

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Old 03-24-2003, 03:54 PM   #14
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see here and the links in the first post.

Then feel free to PM me.

Anyone else interested can follow the trail of links an post in the survey threads where will you will come to rest [ one in Books and One in N&N] I would rather not clog up the TftE talking about it.

Although dangling a mysyery project like that around here was bound to arouse curiosity sooner or later! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
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Old 03-31-2003, 12:34 PM   #15
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Just a question on the geanealogies, we WILL be inlcuding HoME Finweans as well? So people not mentioned in the Published Silmarillion, such as Findis, Lalwende, and Argon will be there too? Plus of course Gil-Galads parentage as the son of Orodreth, son of Angrod, and the Quenyarin names of the Finweans plus their wives can be included too. for me, the part in which we begin to get to the Nodor in Aman/Beleriand is when this really 'hots up' so to speak, so Amras's death in Losgar will be given and Gil-galads revised history as the son of Orodreth? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 04-07-2003, 09:03 PM   #16
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I definitely think the HoMe Finweans (an apt term!) should be included. The Shibboleth is clearly the highest priority source for most of the Noldorin genealogies (regardless of potential problems regarding the High Kingship).

I am also very much inclined to keep the death of Amrod, though (and this has perhaps been sometimes overlooked) the account given in the Shibboleth is, as it stands, in direct contradiction with the LQ account of the burning at Losgar. We'll need to decide whether to simply adopt the Shibboleth's version (which would mean some awkward insertions and deletions) or to try to reconcile the accounts (which could, I think, be done reasonably). That is, the basic conflict could perhaps be viewed as not really being a conflict at all. I am inclined toward this option since it seems unlikely that Tolkien intended to simply eliminate the dialogue between Maedhros and Feanor.
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Old 04-08-2003, 06:14 AM   #17
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Although as Aiwendil and I have conversed about the real change will be felt, I think not so much at Losgar [ as we have a ready made dialogue to insert], but in turning the 7 sons of Feanor into the six, and having Amras as a loner in the wilds of East Beleriand.
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Old 04-08-2003, 06:22 AM   #18
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Plus of course Gil-Galads parentage as the son of Orodreth, son of Angrod.

One argument against this I think [ and for leaving it vauge or...] is that Orodreth being given Minas Tirith to watch over when his father and Uncle are given Dorthonion.

He would be the only such 4th generation finwean to be given such leadership with his anscestors still alive. to my mind this is somewhat problematic and unlikely. JRRT never really worked the spate of changes into the texts, so I have little confidence he would have stayed at the same generation as Celebrian and Celebrimbor.

Also having the High-Kingship jump to yet another House without even a word to note it is also strange.

Ideally CJRT would have remained silent on the Gil-Glald/Orodreth matter and we would have precendent for doing that as well, but that would feel a bit odd at this point.

So something of a case can be against using the final version I think, though I expect the rest of you to have something else to say on this! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
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Old 04-08-2003, 02:52 PM   #19
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Yes, the change in Orodreth's descent does make one wonder about his being given stewardship of Minas Tirith. It might be slightly out of place, and quite possibly Tolkien would have changed it. But for our purposes I think the best choice is to make Orodreth the son of Angrod and let the Minas Tirith situation stand.

Nor do I see any reason that it necessarily would have been changed. True, he's the only fourth generation Finwean given a position of such power so early on. But we only have a total of five fourth generation Finweans at all, if I count correctly (Celebrimbor, Idril, Maeglin, Orodreth, and Celebrian). So it's hard to draw general conclusions about them. Also, Orodreth was probably among the oldest of them (Maeglin was certainly born later and I would think Celebrian also). And, most convincingly of all in my opinion, a mere few hundred years later (not very much to these Elves) he was the King of Nargothrond and his daughter was of approximately marriageable age.

Keep in mind also that Orodreth was not a King in Minas Tirith; that is, he was not granted a position coeval with his father and uncles. He was merely a warden, a commander of a single fortress in a greater realm.

Having the Kingship jump from Fingolfin's house to Finarfin's is also slightly problematic but not cripplingly so. This has been discussed (ad nauseum in my opinion) in various places - I think here, in one of the early threads, for one. But regardless of the exact meaning of "The Dispossessed" or the passage where neri and nissi are called equal in matters not pertaining to war, there are at the very least defendable arguments for why none of the other Noldorin candidates became the High King.

One other problem with the new genealogy is this: how did Gil-Galad at the fall of Nargothrond? This is, I think, the most serious problem. If he's the son of Fingon then he was simply sent to the havens earlier (after the Bragollach, I believe) and (obviously) had nothing to do with Nargothrond. If he was the son of Orodreth, though, one might expect him to have been in Nargothrond up to the end.

But to put him there would raise two problems: first, some explanation would be needed for how he left Nargothrond before (or during) the Battle of Tumhalad. Second, it would seem very strange that he was in Nargothrond during Turin's stay there, without a single mention in the Narn.

I think the best solution (albeit a deeply flawed one) is to have him still sent to the havens after the Bragollach. But there seems little reason for this to happen. Nonetheless, I still think that it would be preferrable to keep the new genealogy and either concoct some minimalist reason or simply leave his exact movements vague.
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Old 04-09-2003, 12:33 PM   #20
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Posted by Aiwendil:
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I think the best solution (albeit a deeply flawed one) is to have him still sent to the havens after the Bragollach. But there seems little reason for this to happen. Nonetheless, I still think that it would be preferrable to keep the new genealogy and either concoct some minimalist reason or simply leave his exact movements vague.
Were do you see the flaw in that version?
For men in that age it was normal to send their children to other families to be aducated and to strengthen the freindship between the families.

There was a grate friendship between Nargothrond and the Falas. Finrod build a tower in the Falas and helped Cirdan to repair the havens. I think it would be normal for Orodreth to send his yound son to his allies to learn about thier habits.

Not that such a fanfic should be mentioned, but as a background basis for such a version it could work.
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